Wow!

[Evin Grant]

This was exposed at EI320 and was shot handheld. The DR here is amazing these kids are in shadow insde with only ambient light hitting them and the detail outside in direct sunlight is astonishing!
http://www.reduser.net/evin/in_out.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/evin/in_out.tiff

[Casey Pegram]

Now that's what I'm talking about! Thanks for sharing all this with us.

[Alex Boothby]

Can we have a flat tiff or dpx? Pretty please.... Salivating.

[Salem Kapic]

http://www.reduser.net/evin/in_out.tiff
sorry but ... this is broken link?

[G.A. Kokes]

The dynamic range is impressive. In December we get ours and we'll be able to start measuring it first hand.

Thanks.

G

[Unwounded]

yeah,.......I'm impressed.

[Evin Grant]

Can we have a flat tiff or dpx? Pretty please.... Salivating.

Here you go, give it 5-10 Min. to upload.

http://www.reduser.net/evin/in_outUP.tiff

[Albert Cheng]

ok, now THIS is the most impressive shot I've seen so far!

[Unwounded]

link didn't work,....at least not for me. Anyone?

[Nik Manning]

Very Nice. I think this will be the pic to attach to the email you send all the non believers.

[Alex Boothby]

Here you go, give it 5-10 Min. to upload.

http://www.reduser.net/evin/in_outUP.tiff

Whatta guy. Gracias.

[Seung Han]

Very cool.

[Brandon Fraley]

awesome

[Kevin Halverson]

Wow!!

[Sanjin Jukic]

Wow!

Daylight shot.

And without any ND filter???

[Evin Grant]

Wow!

Daylight shot.

And without any ND filter???

I believe we had at least a 1.2 (Four stop) ND filter in there maybe more.

[Kholi Hicks]

Oi... every still from this camera is killer. That's really major, the detail outside in direct and harsh sunlight.

Thanks for sharing.


Speaking of direct sunlight, have you guys gone outside and shot anything? Blown out skys or blue and clear?

[Álex Montoya]

That's the magic of RAW

[Sanjin Jukic]

ND filters are must have for the sunlight/daylight shots.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Cool stuff......more more more!

[Shawn Nelson]

Ah nice Evin! Gah! I'm jealous, you have a reserve number way past mine but you live next to one of the low #s! Ah!!

I'm the lowest number in my state :-(

[Poi Boy]

hang in shawn, only a few days more for you.
Aloha
-A

[Brook Willard]

Damn Evin, you're making me jealous here... you got all the footage and I didn't!

[Corey Culp]

Damn Evin, you're making me jealous here... you got all the footage and I didn't!

How does it taste, Brook? :innocent:

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Brook, atleast you shot with the cameras already, that's more than any of us can say :)

[Brook Willard]

Now I just want to get one on an actual set! To see what they can *really* do... :)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Great image--except.... more cyan fringed bokeh. Which lens is that?

[Brook Willard]

That was the zoom.

[Evin Grant]

Another HDR pic. I'm getting better at Red Alert:biggrin:
http://www.reduser.net/evin/hdr.jpg

Here is the Tiff, I used a gradient mask layer in Photoshop to show how much ditail is retinaed in the white shirt, it's hard to see on an LCD monitor.

http://www.reduser.net/evin/hdr.tiff

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Needs to be reposted Evin....got some problems in either the labeling of the photo or uploading of it :(

[Evin Grant]

The tiff is still uploading give it a few minutes.

[Brook Willard]

Nice looking! Have you checked out the stairs shot that we bracketed? [the one with that +3 or +4 stop hot spot they walked through]

[Justin Kirchhoff]

this one is great....i love the detail in the whites, very nicely exposed. the contrast in the image is wonderful. focus seems to be great on this one too.

[Simon Blackledge]

double zoom only on the lcd for focus?

s

[Brook Willard]

Bingo. Everything we shot was focused by eye on Evin's 720p LCD.

[jaadgy akanni]

Bingo. Everything we shot was focused by eye on Evin's 720p LCD.

Brook is that a Marshall lcd? "cause if it is, then I guess i'm keeping mine...lol

[Justin Kirchhoff]

it's the Panasonic something or other....used one a few weeks ago on a Varicam shoot. very nice LCD. i recommend one.

[Brook Willard]

Evin'll know better than I. It's a Panasonic. We also exposed mostly by eye using the LCD [not the best idea ever, but it worked well enough].

[Alvise Tedesco]

I wasn't too impressed on the first one. The couple wasn't outside but surrounded by big windows.
That one is gorgeous

[Frank Weeks]

This is a very good shot Evin. The detail across the board is strong.

Frank
Red #822

[erbp]

First, thank you to everyone who is posting stills and shots from their cameras. I imagine this is a question for Graeme.

This is the blue channel at 1:1. Are these blocks due to wavelet compression or something else? Do they exist in camera RAW or are they introduced in Red Alert?

edit: Well, it got compressed when I uploaded it, but you can still make out the blocks I'm talking about or have a look at the original tiff.

[Alvise Tedesco]

You used Evin Panasonic 8,5 and I heard RED lcd/viewfinder/REDdrive weren't ready in the first batch.
But, isn't this (OffHollywood RED) the RED lcd?

http://www.hdforindies.com/uploaded_images/NoSleepTillBrooklyn.JPG

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I do a lot of my focusing by eye...and I know that's not good practice either, but I'm pretty confident in my focus pulling skills. But 4k is a whole other monster.

[G.A. Kokes]

Jim confirmed on another (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4182&page=6) thread that RED LCDs were shipped out with the first batch. He ran out of them and instead is using a Pani on his RED camera on some Indy (race car) location shooting. I believe he is there now. IE Live...

G

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Thank you so much for sharing all this, guys…this is priceless.

About the first picture of this thread, I think I would have made a different choice regarding exposition, I would have tried to keep as much informations outside and let my talents in darkness and then try to bring them back in post.
I do believe that overexposing half of your picture is not a solution that will be very popular.

Emmanuel

[Simon Blackledge]

Comes out pretty well here..

http://idisk.mac.com/simonblackledge/Public/Red/hdr.jpg

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Blue channel is getting chewed up really badly by the wavelet compression in the HDR.tif shot as well. Please tell me we'll be able to scale back the compression in the future at the cost of higher datarates.

[Alex Boothby]

So Gavin, I guess that means we can finally say that green screen is better, huh? At least for CMOS stuff...

Edit: CMOS = 2 pixels green, 1 pixel red, 1 pixel blue... or am I misunderstanding?

[Guy]

I'm seeing some patterned noise in the overexposed part. This is only adjusting Levels in photoshop. 100% crop. Jpeg quality 10. From "in_outUP.tiff"

[Gavin Greenwalt]

So Gavin, I guess that means we can finally say that green screen is better, huh? At least for CMOS stuff...

Edit: CMOS = 2 pixels green, 1 pixel red, 1 pixel blue... or am I misunderstanding?

Just like DV :(

[Simon Blackledge]

..if you did that to a film scan what would you get?

[Guy]

Random noise?

[Alex Boothby]

Film scans get ugly in the toe and shoulder too, depending on the stock. Of interest: often the blue channel is blurier on film stocks too.

[Alex Boothby]

Or was that grainier?

[Keith Alan Morris]

Comes out pretty well here..

damn, flameop, you tha man!

[Simon Blackledge]

Out of intrest can you lower the exposure on the first shot enough to get detail in the sidewalk?

S

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Nope. There is a flat Tif back there <-- somewhere on a previous page.

[Corey Culp]

I'm seeing some patterned noise in the overexposed part. This is only adjusting Levels in photoshop. 100% crop. Jpeg quality 10. From "in_outUP.tiff"

JPEG Quality 10? Doesn't your's go up to 12? ;)

[Evin Grant]

That "in_out" shot started just inside and exposed properly, I was shooting handheld and saw my cousin and her boyfriend doing some cute stuff so I just turned and shot, it's really a case of Wow that looks great and I didn't even try and adjust the exposure. Even still, I might have let the concrete blow out as long as the other stuff held. I would have no problem using that shot in a scene.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Blue channel is getting chewed up really badly by the wavelet compression in the HDR.tif shot as well.

Odd that the blue channel seems to suffer more than the red. I wonder if this is a compromise in the compression with the data rate or if it has to do with the debayer / demosaic approach? I think this accounts for the cyan fringe we see in the bokeh, I'm willing to bet it's not so much an issue with the glass and we would probably see similar fringing on other lenses that produce similar bokeh. I guess now I'm really anxious to see results from Nikon and Canon glass as well as other PL mount cine lens options.

...I wonder what we'll get when using lenses that have more apparent chromatic aberration? Will blue/purple CA and fringe that is normally produced with certain lenses be amplified?

[jbeale]

Just looking at the "hdr.tiff" image, it really looks nice! Thanks so much for taking and posting these. Looking at the blue channel at 100%, I see some funny blemishes on her face (looks like stitches or blocky wrinkles) which is not present in red or green channels. The blue channel does not look noisy at all, apart from these strange marks. Can anyone say, is this something about the wavelet encoding settings or is it something else?

http://www.bealecorner.com/D30/misc/RED-HDR-Crop-BlueOnly.png

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Odd that the blue channel seems to suffer more than the red. I wonder if this is a compromise in the compression with the data rate or if it has to do with the debayer / demosaic approach? I think this accounts for the cyan fringe we see in the bokeh, I'm willing to bet it's not so much an issue with the glass and we would probably see similar fringing on other lenses that produce similar bokeh. I guess now I'm really anxious to see results from Nikon and Canon glass as well as other PL mount cine lens options.

...I wonder what we'll get when using lenses that have more apparent chromatic aberration? Will blue/purple CA and fringe that is normally produced with certain lenses be amplified?

I don't know that I buy that argument. If that were the case why would it only be in the out of focus areas. I would assume anywhere there is a sharp high contrast edge I would see a cyan fringe unless I'm not understanding you properly.

Also by that reasoning wouldn't the magenta fringe also be amplified by the reverse happening?

I'm still blaiming glass. But... simultaneously unhappy with the blue compression.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm still blaiming glass. But... simultaneously unhappy with the blue compression.

Hmmm... Perhaps it is the glass and I was too quick to jump to a conclusion. I'm officially reserving any more conclusion jumping until we see some proper lens tests.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Just looking at the "hdr.tiff" image, it really looks nice! Thanks so much for taking and posting these. Looking at the blue channel at 100%, I see some funny blemishes on her face (looks like stitches or blocky wrinkles) which is not present in red or green channels. The blue channel does not look noisy at all, apart from these strange marks. Can anyone say, is this something about the wavelet encoding settings or is it something else?


JBeale that's classic over wavelet compressed high frequency data. The tell tale little T,t and diamond hacks give it away.

These are the exact same problems that were in the crossing the line footage that I complained about 4 months ago.

Take a look at the wavelet compression progression image.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4072
Hack marks are rotting remains of fine details and noise.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

there is actually some noise in the red channel if look at her left arm and breast, not as big but more like buttons.

[Evin Grant]

guys you will NEVER see this stuff on the big screen!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

you will if you get a chattery key.

[Evin Grant]

I'm sure a little chroma NR and a good compositer like shake and you'll do fine.

[Ethan Cooper]

All you VFX guys are missing something here while you're busy picking apart the wavelet compression: if you're needing pristine perfect footage for keying, use a cam with the Raw port. Till you see some footage off one of those, give it a rest.
________
Mazda Rx-4 Specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda_RX-4)

[Evan Owen]

Just looking at the "hdr.tiff" image, it really looks nice! Thanks so much for taking and posting these. Looking at the blue channel at 100%, I see some funny blemishes on her face (looks like stitches or blocky wrinkles) which is not present in red or green channels. The blue channel does not look noisy at all, apart from these strange marks. Can anyone say, is this something about the wavelet encoding settings or is it something else?


Even though the compression is pretty heavy, it looks to me like Graeme did something very smart here (as if that's something new :biggrin:). Since there's significantly less detail in the red and blue channels because of the bayer pattern, the advantage gained from wavelet compression in those channels is far greater, with minimal loss of original detail. Just be glad the compression isn't on the green channel...

[EDIT] Now that I think about it a bit more, it seems obvious that this type of compression (which is essentially invisible unless you look at the separated channels) is worth it in order to be able to record 4K to compact flash, or even hard disk. Once scaled to 2K, no one will notice a thing. And honestly, who's going to project at 4K? If you've got the resources to finish in 4K, you'll probably get the RAW port...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm personally not anxious to tie a camera to a $100,000 RAID when a $200 one would perform admirably. Especially since I just know that data is still in there behind all that compression.

This is 4:2:2 all over again.

Also Jim has been emphatically insisting that we look at how great his blue channel is all week. I'm just happily obliging. ;)

[Alex Boothby]

you will if you get a chattery key.

More chattery than film grain or film weave? Probably not, but time will tell.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Probably not. But at least with film grain there is an expectation for grain to be in the key since there is grain everywhere else.

The problem I see with the RED camera is they've established such a high bar to achieve throughout the image. It's going to be much much harder to hide mistakes and inadequacies in a composite if the image is crystal clean and sharp.

It's just frustrating because just a handful of MB/s more would go a really really long way in reducing those artifacts.

I'm also suspicious that there are other things that I'm noticing in the image that are being caused by the blue channel but I don't want to comment on them until I can do some photoshop research.

[Alexander Nikishin]

That's clean!

Nice range and tonality also.

[Alex Boothby]

It's going to be much much harder to hide mistakes and inadequacies in a composite if the image is crystal clean and sharp.

Amen to that! The few 4K Imax projects I've comped were a bitch.

[Chris Kenny]

Everyone should keep in mind, when picking apart these images, that a screen needs to fill a pretty large fraction of your field of vision for you to be able to resolve all the detail in a 4K image. Even in a theater with a 4K projector and a large screen, a lot of the image flaws that are visible when you're viewing the footage at 100% zoom on your monitor are not going to be particularly noticeable.

As far as shooting green screen, it's worth noting that generally you'll have your subject taking up a small fraction of the frame, with the rest filled with a (mostly) solid color. Solid colors are easy to compress, leaving more bandwidth for retaining detail in the subject.

The blue channel does seem to be fairly noisy in many of these images, though; I'm curious exactly what's going on there.

[Paul Hazlett]

it's the Panasonic something or other....used one a few weeks ago on a Varicam shoot. very nice LCD. i recommend one.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/428936-REG/Panasonic_BT_LH900APJ_Panasonic_BTLH900A_8_4_LCD.h tml

here is a link to it. nice monitor, not so nice price.

[Don King]

Did you already try with other lenses than the 18-50 mm zoom?

[Brook Willard]

We used Zeiss standards and the RED 300mm. Other tests are coming soon.

[Don King]

How are the Zeiss standards going? Could you post some examples?

[Emanuel A.]

Here is the original:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7607/800x400xv4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

After monitor's calibration [ though I'm not sure if that's actually the better one ;-) ]
here are several of them after CC or/and grading (from different setups):

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5978/inoutcc1qv3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9356/inoutcc2zz7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7112/inoutcc3gt0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Emanuel A.]

And here is a PP sample before any monitor's calibration (more than necessary, I believe):

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9482/cc2800x400sd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Alex Boothby]

wasn't the night pepsi can a Zeiss standard?

[Brook Willard]

Yeah, it was.

[Emanuel A.]

wasn't the night pepsi can a Zeiss standard??? Where's it?

[Don King]

Yes, good question. By the way, interesting examples Emanuel.

I'd vote on the second one or perhaps on the 4th.

[Alex Boothby]

?? Where's it?

Nightcan...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4123

[Álex Montoya]

Hmmm... the proper exposed pics, that is, the ones at 320 ASA, do not show these problems in the blue channel and there's no perceptible resolution difference between the channels (so, it is NOT 4:2:2, which BTW is NOT DV, all over again).

Anyway, my point is that these artifacts only occur when the image has noise: in that case, the REDCODE doesn't seem to be able to resolve that detail and it is traded (in the blue channel) with compression artifacts.

I have checked RAW pics with high asa taken with my SONY DSC-R1 and it does the very same thing.

Conclusion: if you want to shoot chroma stuff just put up the necessary light to expose properly.

If you need to shoot in low light conditions, just know that there's a trade-off: shoot tests and make your choice. Know as well that many of the artifacts may be sweetened in posproduction.

[Stephen Gentle]

Conclusion: if you want to shoot chroma stuff just put up the necessary light to expose properly.

You'll probably want to use a green screen if possible too, so as to benefit from the extra resolution in that channel.

[Laco Zamba]

Hmmm... the proper exposed pics, that is, the ones at 320 ASA, do not show these problems in the blue channel and there's no perceptible resolution difference between the channels (so, it is NOT 4:2:2, which BTW is NOT DV, all over again).

Anyway, my point is that these artifacts only occur when the image has noise: in that case, the REDCODE doesn't seem to be able to resolve that detail and it is traded (in the blue channel) with compression artifacts.

I have checked RAW pics with high asa taken with my SONY DSC-R1 and it does the very same thing.

Conclusion: if you want to shoot chroma stuff just put up the necessary light to expose properly.

If you need to shoot in low light conditions, just know that there's a trade-off: shoot tests and make your choice. Know as well that many of the artifacts may be sweetened in posproduction.

Dear Graeme. Can you confirm this, please?
And add that you know about it and working on solution :-)

[Lauri Kettunen]

I see some funny blemishes on her face (looks like stitches or blocky wrinkles) which is not present in red or green channels. The blue channel does not look noisy at all, apart from these strange marks. Can anyone say, is this something about the wavelet encoding settings or is it something else?

Don't want to take any sides on what generates such things or why they appear, but think have seen similar kind of patterns with Photoshop plug-in called Neat Image Pro+ when the noise reduction was set too high. (Neat Image is a great tool.) Does anybody know about the technical background of Neat Image noise reduction? That could help in building an understanding of what is going on.

[Álex Montoya]

Wavelet compression tends to soften the image in a similar way as noise reduction do.

I may be mistaken but I think I read somewhere that wavelet compression algorithms were indeed used in some of these programs.

[Casey Green]

Good stuff, Evin! Keep it comin. ;)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Don't want to take any sides on what generates such things or why they appear, but think have seen similar kind of patterns with Photoshop plug-in called Neat Image Pro+ when the noise reduction was set too high. (Neat Image is a great tool.) Does anybody know about the technical background of Neat Image noise reduction? That could help in building an understanding of what is going on.

Neat Image uses wavelets for its noise reduction. And in response to Jbeale yes I do suspect that the skintones are a bit mottled because of the compression. You see the exact same thing with any other compression method where the skin transitions from highlights to shadows and the chroma blending becomes steppy. It's so subtle it's really hard to put down a definitive screencap but I'm looking anyway because I 'sense' that it's there when grading and I sense it's in a direct correlation to the blue channel.

It's also my suspicion that those sparkly blue pixels scattered about are just patches of noise that were randomly so much brighter than their surroundings that they didn't get de-noised by the wavelets.

[Michael Booth]

I've only just seen that image, and indeed wow! The dynamic range looks pretty sweet. We're currently shooting a feature with the Panasonic HVX200 with Red Rock M2, and I'd really like our next film to be shot on the Red. From what I've seen, it looks brilliant.

Well done to the Red team.