Reality Check! Miami Music Video Scene!

[Carlos Prio]

Reality Check for me brothers!!! Miami has turned into a Hip Hop, Reggaeton, Latin Music Video Mecca with all kind of Directors workin it out down here. Commercials have been on the decline and films are non existent since this genius state has cut all tax benefits for the film industry but all and all I have been doing alright.

But, for the past 90 days I have witnessed a substantial increase of the Canon 5d/7d DSLRs into Miami's Music Video Sets. Time & time again Red Rental quotes have gone cold... I show up on sets and I am told that we are shooting on Canons!!!! Then I speak to a couple of other DPs in the area and several have told me the same thing! We are shooting on 7ds! One colleague stated that he preferred the 7d's low light capabilities and chooses 7D over the Red. What???? what about banding and compression??? "No matter Bro, cost/quality ratio" he states!!! So, I understand that it's "Obama Time" and ultra low budgets is the norm in Alternative, Reggaeton & Hip Hop videos but on the main stream (lil Wayne) & big budgets??? What about commercials??? Anybody in LA & NYC feeling some of this???

Now I have owned a 5D since it's release and I must admit that I have used it very successfully in video mode!!! I have used it when I needed a POV/Body/funk mount camera or the client just worked me down to the point where I would not use the Red. As you all know, the pictures straight out of the box are just amazing!!! But I just can't stomach it in the real production world!!! and I surely can't stomach it in post. But right now my rentals are challenged and the 7D is kicking my ass!!!

I will keep you posted if the trend continues!!!

[Imran Farouk]

wait for the Scarlet's/Epic's...I'd wave good bye to this trend then, after holding that body proto and being an owner of a 7D...this trend can't continue and RED are definitely on the right path. Jees if they shaved off even just a bit more of the epic body it'd be amazing, or made a few carbon accessories increasing the lightness.

This trend can't possibly live on for too much longer...good luck with it though! I'm going to stay out of rentals for a while to come...

[Patrick Kaplin]

I'm curious to hear from others about this. Is the Red rental market really taking a hit from the dslrs?

[chrislancaster]

i have a feeling as the web takes over more and more people are not going to care about super high resolution

It's become the "Good enough" country (world?)


look at mp3's they sound like crap but nobody even notices anymore because they are so dominant

its rough terrain will be interesting to see what happens next

im obviously not a genius business man but Scarlet should become the focus and it should be cheap and ready to go ...my honest opinion

[Zakaree Sandberg]

ive been seeing this for a while now...
but honestly.. the only people who care about quality is US..
the film makers.. the cinematographers or tech geeks..

in real life.. people could give a shit. they dont care about quality but quantity.

its the hard fact.

Its all about what can we get on the WEB ASAP! and for CHEAP.

my biggest fear is paying another 30 grand for a camera system that loses out too a 1700.00 camera..

feature films and network tv will always use quality.. and this is where RED takes the cake. We have already seen the decline in FILM for RED projects...
but now im really seeing the RED- CANON decline and its happening more and more..
it wont be long till feature films and tv will soon jump onto the dslr bandwagon.. especially when the next generation of dslr's come out.

were talkin under 5k for a camera system that will be working the big and small screens..
profits for us = bye bye
profits for the productions = $$cha ching$$

[Rick Darge]

I just saw a video on Vimeo where Rodney Charters was talking about how they started using the 5D and the 1D as background plate cameras, then as B-cameras, now soon, as A-cameras. I own a Red, 7D & 5D. I push people to go Red but sometimes it just makes sense to go with Canon. Scarlet will change that but I wonder what Canon has up their sneaky sleeves as well. Times are a changing that's for sure. What I worry about most is what is going to happen once the Scarlet & Epic cameras are released? I think MMMOST productions in Los Angeles are going to opt for the Scarlet because it will be cheaper and cheaper to rent. This will force some Epic Owners to compete with those prices. How often are people going to want 100 fps 5k? I shoot slow mo very little in my work.. People are going to want the Scarlet S35 for peanuts, Red One will be put into a shoebox and the Epic will be reserved for those with great negotiation skills and/or demanding projects. But really.. It's not about the gear, right? You don't get hired for your gear unless you're a rental house. People are hiring you because of your talent and your ability to work well with others. So, play your cards safe, don't just look at tomorrow. Look at 5 years from now and picture where you want to be. At the end of the day, it's not the camera, it's the work.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I see a trend in Europe towards the Canon 5D and 7D too. I try to educate people whenever i can about why it's not a good idea to shoot a TV commercial with a 5D but the reply is always "but look how good it looks". That drives me crazy!

Honestly, i start to believe that the Scarlets will not be as successful as i thought they would be 6 months ago. Most of the potential buyers will not be able to understand why they need to pay X times more than a DSLR for a Scarlet when they can't see the difference in image quality.

It's depressing really but that's the way things are...

[Jerrod Cordell]

What Lil Wayne video was shot with a 7D? That's insane.

I'm sure the lowlight excuse will be nipped in the bud once more MX Reds are out on the market.

[MichaelHalsell]

Our post facility in NYC has seen a significant increase in Canon footage being handled and treated. I'm not sure if the Canon trend is pushing the envelope or dumbing down expectations. But the volume of stuff being shot with Canon tools has definitely risen.

[Rick Darge]

I don't understand how people can grade Canon footage after grading Red.. And then to have to add all these accessories just to make the cameras work in a professional environment. For what? To save a few bucks on rental? Why compromise?

[david_winters]

I started working in this business in the early 90's while still in school. It was the same complaining back then. I personally experienced.

1990 - 1995ish

Lower cost S-VHS single chip and 3 chip cameras replacing U-Matic porta pack setups. Smaller lighter weight, arguably better initial image quality. Back then it was all about tape generation loss.

BetaSP jobs getting replaced with Mini DV, with that first Panasonic model... the one that looked like a director's viewfinder.

Panasonic F-700 with M2 as a lower cost downgrade from the BVW 400a. I shot hundreds of hours on the F700 rig and loved it, while 400a shooters looked down on me.

Then when I got into film acquisition, 16mm jobs going to the DVW700.

Then the XL1.

1998 - 2001 JVC D29 / Digital S vs Sony D600 / BetaSP.

2000 - 2003ish F900 vs DVX100

[chrislancaster]

I don't understand how people can grade Canon footage after grading Red.. And then to have to add all these accessories just to make the cameras work in a professional environment. For what? To save a few bucks on rental? Why compromise?



because its good enough.

the masses don't care to much about quality its quantity and how quick can i get it?

a younger generation has grown up on the web and all they know is instant gratification.

[chrislancaster]

What Lil Wayne video was shot with a 7D? That's insane.

I'm sure the lowlight excuse will be nipped in the bud once more MX Reds are out on the market.

How can you be surprised his music sounds like its made with garage band..

but i digress

I know they want Scarlet perfect but it wont ever be so why not just release it with the bugs and just upgrade it with firm ware ?

people kind of expect it these days... and i dont mean that just for RED look at the other guys .

[Graeme Hay]

Well I have yet to get a RED camera for a shoot (I've been looking at renting one) but when I get quotes of $500-$750 a day just for the body, its hard to justify when Canon has the 7D for only $2000 to buy. And I've noticed that RED renters have gotten a bit cheaper this year and they have been doing a lot more ads and long-term rental discounts then before, but its still a pricey proposition. I'd love to get a basic RED One set-up for 10k grand, I'd pick that over a DSLR in a heartbeat, but for 25k-30k excluding lenses, its well outside a reasonable indie-budget, renting is really the only way to go unless you got a name, distribution contract or cash to burn.

To make matters worst for them, the T2i just came out and its $800. Sure its harder to use and isn't as good as a RED One, and there are some additional production costs. But the core cost ratio is 20:1! For one maybe 2 days of renting a Red One I can own my own camera system! (Again lenses would be required for both, etc).

A local indie filmmaker is looking at the T2i as a promising cheap new camera (add with his video camera) , and I'm likely going to follow that train of thought (DSLR + High-End Consumer Camcorder) using the Camcorder for Run&Gun scenes and the DSLR for everything else. Sure its only 1080p, but unless I really think my stuff is going to the big screen in a big way, all my potential customers (TV, DVD, Blueray, HDTV) max out at 1080p and from the charts unless everyone gets 100" TVs and huge rooms to view them in (we like to call that theaters), that's not going to change anytime soon.

So the above talk about the "masses", they are your main audience. Unless you have a huge budget to wow them with something absolutely stunning (Like Avatar - in 3D), they're not going to notice or care (or pay a premium for it). Sucks but its true.

The Scarlet looked to be a option for me in 2011; to buy - I can't justify renting a sub-$5000 camera. At the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the scarlet gets a good smack-down by the new DSLRv's or any potential video-bodies using DSLR technologies and I stick with a newer HDSLRv. And with more Nikon and Canon Glass being cheaper than a lot of cine-lenses and now Panasonic getting into it with their 4/3's camera, it may be hard for RED to crack that low-budget film market now that the "bigger" players are in the pool!

What does that spell for the renters? Well they are going to have to drop their prices to compete (only if the RED price drops) or reduce their supply to match the remaining big-buget productions left (more likely); that or go out of business :emote_headwall:.

[Jim Hoffman]

I'm starting to see my commercial clients bring in project shot on Canon. They like it a lot. It saves them money and it looks good enough for them. They make a good argument about having multiple cameras for not a lot of $$$$. They can't see a big difference in quality. Music video guys have jumped to Canons and it gives them access to a quality they couldn't otherwise grab. The one thing I see aside from the obvious technical issues is the look of the focus issues that are very present when they have trouble pulling focus.Not an issue so much for music videos. But it is a little scary having invested big $$$ in Red and staring at big $$$ for accessories and upgrades. I'm in for the long hall though. I notice the difference.

[MichaelHalsell]

Richard I agree, I just spent the better part of 2 weeks grading alot, alot of Canon footage. Instead of grading pixels, one is grading compression blocks. Yes RED footage is very luxurious compared to Canon footage (from a grading perspective). Not hating, just saying.

[Sven Seynaeve]

Here in europe I spoke to some production companies, and they see the rise of use of the 7d and 5d happening much more then they could ever have imagined.


I've been asked to shoot some musicvideos for a band , but when there's almost no budget I must admit that there's no other option in the meantime than shooting on canon.

[EliasR]

But Scarlet will got AF right? Would be pretty useful for my extremesports footage, and the reason why I would consider a scarlet before Canon. If they not releases something similar/cheaper before the scarlet release i.e.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

the problem is.. even if scarlet is only 10k.. production companies will either A. still hire canon 5 and 7d cameras.. or get scarlets at the same rate..

so if your concern is recouping your money.. your better off with the cheaper camera that will actually work..

kinda sucks.

[BigLu]

I see the same trend in LA, Music Video directors choosing to shoot with the 5D / 7D.
Top music artists accepting the camera and its look and price point sealing the deal.

The light weight and easy of use seems to outweigh the RED quality for music videos.
I have also seen this in 2 movies, the 5D as a B camera and a 7D for a feature and 7D as a C camera on a television show.

It's also replaced my services for RED shoots on set so its challenging to keep music video work busy with some of my DP's and Directors.

Perhaps scarlet will replace Canons on set, I can only hope.

[OptiTek]

In the spirit of cooperation and integration I made EOS mounts for Red Pro Primes: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42058
I think it's inevitable- VDSLRs are here to stay- they will bite the (low end) chunk of the industry. We all need to adapt-it's the key...

[chrislancaster]

thats insane... :shocked:

[Carlos Prio]

I shoot a low budget tomorrow with Travis, T-Pain and Lil Wayne and I insisted on Red!!! No red no Prio!!! Ballsy huh???

Like I have stated, the 5d/7d have revolutionized the game but I will not use them as A cams for anything that is destined for broadcast. What I really need out of my RED is a couple more stops & high speed at 4k and I am golden!!! Then follow that up with 16 bits and Red and I will rock into the next several years!!! But we need that Sh&t (sorry hanging out with rappers) right now!!!! As far as I am concerned Epic is the only thing that matters and diversifying resources to F around with Scarlett is a mistake. Red rocked it with the Red One and the cine form factor... stick with what works!!!! You ain't gonna win in the Canon game!!!!



I see the same trend in LA, Music Video directors choosing to shoot with the 5D / 7D.
Top music artists accepting the camera and its look and price point sealing the deal.

The light weight and easy of use seems to outweigh the RED quality for music videos.
I have also seen this in 2 movies, the 5D as a B camera and a 7D for a feature and 7D as a C camera on a television show.

It's also replaced my services for RED shoots on set so its challenging to keep music video work busy with some of my DP's and Directors.

Perhaps scarlet will replace Canons on set, I can only hope.

[chrislancaster]

did you really??

im talking about referring to yourself in 3rd person.

:nono:

[MichaelHalsell]

If cost of ownership is being factored a significant consideration, Canon seems to have their finger on the pulse. Quality of image aside for a moment, there is no competition in that price-point VDSL space. Nikon and Panasonic are in Canon's rear mirror.

Sure the Red, Scarlet and Epic will best any of the other offerings image-wise, but from a price-point perspective, Canon pretty much is driving down the HOV lane uncontested and frankly could probably care less about their pissy codec. Because in the face of it all, cameras are selling briskly, real and/or imaginary work is getting done. Wouldn't say their VDSL are category killers, but they are doing damage, until some else shuts them down.

The price of the body, lenses, and accessories don't require a congressional budgetary consideration. And yes within 6 months, a new Canon will be available with a slightly enhanced feature(s). And it again it will be affordable. Lather, rinse and repeat.

Our facility's standing mantra - "Is it billable?, Yea we'll take it."

[Greg Ephraim]

because its good enough.

the masses don't care to much about quality its quantity and how quick can i get it?

a younger generation has grown up on the web and all they know is instant gratification.


I think this whole younger generation of instant gratification is a big driving factor in the RED One as well....
although the instant gratification there includes quality :)

some videos calls for dslr, some don't....especially in music videos, any money saved can make a video better, it's really the idea that counts. and chances are, it's going to show up on the web anyways. and if MTV decides to play it (ha) they still are not accepting HD

[Carlos Prio]

yeah!!! it's like my kids that will never appreciate uncompressed music. MP3 is their hi-fi!!!

[chrislancaster]

yeah!!! it's like my kids that will never appreciate uncompressed music. MP3 is their hi-fi!!!


100% agreement


but my honest opinion is .. the internet will rule over TV easy.. and people have settled for 1080p (is not bad really)

as time goes on and speeds get faster and faster the consumer will then start to demand higher quality like 4k


it seems we are in the B&W of the internet ages and 4k is color

imho

[Carlos Prio]

4k, 5k, 6k along with extended dynamic range is all about acquisition and trying to match, mimic & one day surpass 35/70mm film.

1080p is more than a sufficient distribution format & I think it will serve us well into the future. The problem lies in compression and the throwing away (crushing) of vital color information... 480p, 720p and/or 1080p on youtube while better is still crap!!!

[Carlos Prio]

After being up for 22 hours T-Wayne shows up!!! Shot it Saturday night 4am!! I was twisted to say the least!!!

http://carlosprio.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/twayne.jpg

[lonny dill]

Yes, Miami is a great location! Kudos to Miami and a few others! If you are there and you production help, get together with Alan Degen from degenfilms.com and First Unit Productions. First Unit has a killer crew!

And lastly, thanks again to Birger for letting us continue to shoot with some of our favorite lenses from Canon.

[Rob Ruffo]

I just saw a video on Vimeo where Rodney Charters was talking about how they started using the 5D and the 1D as background plate cameras, then as B-cameras, now soon, as A-cameras. I own a Red, 7D & 5D. I push people to go Red but sometimes it just makes sense to go with Canon. Scarlet will change that but I wonder what Canon has up their sneaky sleeves as well. Times are a changing that's for sure. What I worry about most is what is going to happen once the Scarlet & Epic cameras are released? I think MMMOST productions in Los Angeles are going to opt for the Scarlet because it will be cheaper and cheaper to rent. This will force some Epic Owners to compete with those prices. How often are people going to want 100 fps 5k? I shoot slow mo very little in my work.. People are going to want the Scarlet S35 for peanuts, Red One will be put into a shoebox and the Epic will be reserved for those with great negotiation skills and/or demanding projects. But really.. It's not about the gear, right? You don't get hired for your gear unless you're a rental house. People are hiring you because of your talent and your ability to work well with others. So, play your cards safe, don't just look at tomorrow. Look at 5 years from now and picture where you want to be. At the end of the day, it's not the camera, it's the work.

The Epic has many more advantages. The Scarlet has (when it will exist, which is not now) a 2/3 sensor, NOT 35 like RED/Epic.

People do care about flashing moire, do care about weirdly large skin pores and wrinkles appearing on their talent, and this is the joy of shooting on a DSLR. I think it is our job to better educate our customers with real facts they can see.

There has always been a low end - it used to shoot on Betacam rather than film. Now that low end is shooting on 5D, which is less ugly than Betacam.

[Rob Ruffo]

Yes, Miami is a great location! Kudos to Miami and a few others! If you are there and you production help, get together with Alan Degen from degenfilms.com and First Unit Productions. First Unit has a killer crew!

And lastly, thanks again to Birger for letting us continue to shoot with some of our favorite lenses from Canon.

Birger rocks

[Rob Ruffo]

because its good enough.

the masses don't care to much about quality its quantity and how quick can i get it?

a younger generation has grown up on the web and all they know is instant gratification.

I can give you a similar quote about young people from Plato thousands of years ago.

Young people are actually more visual than ever before, and do appreciate nice visuals. The huge success of Avatar and other highly visual offerings prove that, as does consistently record attendance, year over year at the world's museums.

As if 1970s teenagers, who had a much, much higher incidence of violent crime and a measured far lower average IQ than teenagers today (look it up) were a bunch of refined connoisseurs of fine imagery. Come on now!

[Rob Ruffo]

Well I have yet to get a RED camera for a shoot (I've been looking at renting one) but when I get quotes of $500-$750 a day just for the body, its hard to justify when Canon has the 7D for only $2000 to buy. And I've noticed that RED renters have gotten a bit cheaper this year and they have been doing a lot more ads and long-term rental discounts then before, but its still a pricey proposition. I'd love to get a basic RED One set-up for 10k grand, I'd pick that over a DSLR in a heartbeat, but for 25k-30k excluding lenses, its well outside a reasonable indie-budget, renting is really the only way to go unless you got a name, distribution contract or cash to burn.

To make matters worst for them, the T2i just came out and its $800. Sure its harder to use and isn't as good as a RED One, and there are some additional production costs. But the core cost ratio is 20:1! For one maybe 2 days of renting a Red One I can own my own camera system! (Again lenses would be required for both, etc).

A local indie filmmaker is looking at the T2i as a promising cheap new camera (add with his video camera) , and I'm likely going to follow that train of thought (DSLR + High-End Consumer Camcorder) using the Camcorder for Run&Gun scenes and the DSLR for everything else. Sure its only 1080p, but unless I really think my stuff is going to the big screen in a big way, all my potential customers (TV, DVD, Blueray, HDTV) max out at 1080p and from the charts unless everyone gets 100" TVs and huge rooms to view them in (we like to call that theaters), that's not going to change anytime soon.

So the above talk about the "masses", they are your main audience. Unless you have a huge budget to wow them with something absolutely stunning (Like Avatar - in 3D), they're not going to notice or care (or pay a premium for it). Sucks but its true.

The Scarlet looked to be a option for me in 2011; to buy - I can't justify renting a sub-$5000 camera. At the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the scarlet gets a good smack-down by the new DSLRv's or any potential video-bodies using DSLR technologies and I stick with a newer HDSLRv. And with more Nikon and Canon Glass being cheaper than a lot of cine-lenses and now Panasonic getting into it with their 4/3's camera, it may be hard for RED to crack that low-budget film market now that the "bigger" players are in the pool!

What does that spell for the renters? Well they are going to have to drop their prices to compete (only if the RED price drops) or reduce their supply to match the remaining big-buget productions left (more likely); that or go out of business :emote_headwall:.

It's not "only 1080p" actually resolution is more like "only 550p". real 1080p would be fine.

The masses do care. test audiences of CSI Miami (shot on F35) always state how pretty it looked - how sharp, etc. They don;t know the tech details, but they do know (and enjoy) pretty when they see it. As full HD TVs become more the norm, this will be even more the case.

[Rob Ruffo]

Here in europe I spoke to some production companies, and they see the rise of use of the 7d and 5d happening much more then they could ever have imagined.


I've been asked to shoot some musicvideos for a band , but when there's almost no budget I must admit that there's no other option in the meantime than shooting on canon.

For no budget the 5D is a good option. For some budget - why would you shoot 10K of art and 10K of crew and etc. with a camera that has so many problems? It's just stupid herd mentality then.

[Carlos Prio]

No comparison... period!!! I will only use the 7d/5d for something I would shoot on a HVX200. I am now starting to see the stuff being shot on 7d. IMO- Its not holding up in post and in broadcast compression!!!

But once again... Can I get an Epic please???? Whats the new time frame???

The new "Sniffer" trend is producers calling for the MX sensor but still shooting with the 7D!!! Oh Brother!!!

[Bryce O]

It's not "only 1080p" actually resolution is more like "only 550p". real 1080p would be fine.


This is what Scarlet should have been... A s35mm 2k cam for 1080p finishing. Nobody needs more than 2k honestly, unless you're a studio that knows for a fact the project will end up in theaters. A true 1080p cam is more than enough for music videos and indie productions. I have a feeling that even when Scarlet is released, as awesome as it will be, low budget productions will still be using the 5D and 7D due to the large-frame imagery. The 35mm look is more often associated with "high-budget" than high-resolution is. I look at hvx and ex1 footage all the time and it just looks like really high resolution camcorder footage.. boring. The 7D looks like film. A low-res compressed version of film, but still film none the less.

A s35mm 2k Scarlet for $2500 would put an end to the DSLR's for sure. I don't know about a 2/3" Scarlet though. 3k from a 2/3" is nice, don't get me wrong, but kind of frivolous. I'll probably just save up and wait for the s35 Scarlet myself. I don't like working with compressed footage, but I NEED low-light shallow DOF and I cringe at the fact of having to buy new glass for a 2/3" cam that is useless for any other camera and has completely no resale value, as nice as it may be.