An honest question for the Red Scarlet audience like me.

[Nick D]

Is the RED Scarlet 2/3” really a “B” Cam or a “B”ait and Switch Cam ?

THE BAIT.

Who am I? I’m a nobody with $3000 and lots of patience to shoot my personal HD film project for the last 2 years... Since Red’s NAB 2008 announcement, I’ve legitimately waited patiently to hand over my $3000 to Red for the first Scarlet Fixed 2/3” since that announcement instead of to Canon, JVC, Sony or Panasonic. I have spent hundreds of hours reading the Red moderated forums for every new announcement about the Red Scarlet in the meantime, and been disappointed more often than not at the supposedly “TRANSPARENT” process of waiting for a new “game changer” camera, which “DOESN’T” apparently include realistic launch dates or pricing in their transparency. When product didn’t release in 2009, I bought a Red T-shirt instead and now even that has faded and worn badly…

On the other hand, I have had the pleasure of owning one of the first Sony DCR-VX1000 for $3200, so I know what it’s like to go from wishing for to working overnight with a great camcorder. I know lots of others had this experience with the Canon interchangeable lens DV camcorders and more recently with the Sony EX line. Now, years later the successful Sony EX3 has been released, followed by the 1080p video capable Canon 5D Mark II, then the 7D, I have a sinking feeling Red has recently been up to something less innocent than legitimate product delays of the Scarlet for THEIR benefit!

So how did the premise of a “game changer” camcorder in 2008 turn into a con game in 2009, with lots of free press in the meanwhile?

THE SWITCH.

10 disappointing changes in Red’s actions over 2009 and 2010 have indicated they have clearly intentionally engaged in false advertising with the Red Scarlet pricing, specifications and release dates…

1. Most obviously, the new estimated MSRP of $4750 before shipping for the Scarlet fixed kit. They claim the features were updated to better compete with the DSLR movement (more specifically Canon), but I see no change in their proposed resolution or frame rates. (I speculate that the Canon 5D Mark II turned out to be far superior to the Scarlet test unit, so they went back to the drawing board and invented the ASIC delay or as they call it - everything is “subject to change” according to Jim Jannard. We here in the Midwest USA call it “false advertising”…)

2. To actually make the Red Scarlet useable at the higher data rates or 120 fps, you will need an extra $2000. The basic starting camera kit really costs $6750 unless you want to shoot only 24p or lower the data rate. (It’s for the Red SSD module, adaptor and reader or whatever Red invents when you finish reading the 1000+ pages of fine print in their forums. Besides- what other options do you have out there once they got your first five grand? Maybe a discontinued $399 Sanyo consumer 60p camcorder?)

3. Red “admitted” to yet ANOTHER launch delay yesterday (Feb 13th, 2010) to get the Scarlet “right”, which means the Scarlet won’t be available until “late summer” 2010 at the earliest for first orders! (Haven’t we heard this 3 times already? When does it become false advertising, even to Red One fans?)

4. Red has announced and continues to develop and release products for the new EPIC and Red One prior to the Scarlet, mostly lenses at $4250 and above! (If you have a check for the Red One or Epic at $17,500 or more, to the front of the line- you will be served now)

5. Red recently removed the “OTHER CAMERA” section from their forum since they supposedly “weren’t pleased” with recent Red One comparisons to other manufacturer’s less expensive equipment by legitimate Red Users and Scarlet waiters such as myself! (Aren’t Red One vs. Film shootouts what allowed Red to gain prominence in the first place? Seems hypocritical now that the table’s turned…)

6. Red has now resorted to bashing the Canon 5D in their forums by comparing it to the new Mysterium–X sensor from an insufficient resolution perspective… AFTER REMOVING the other cameras discussion in their forum, yet it makes no direct comparison between the Scarlet 2/3”, Sony EX1 or EX3 and the Canon 7D or 5D on low light performance with better lenses …

7. Red is proclaiming that projects shot today in ANYTHING LESS THAN 4K is insufficient for future proofing new releases and revenue streams! (So does that mean the Scarlet 2/3” is DOA for “serious” videographers or film students, and 1080p 3D footage is useless for early adopters. Hmmm… cancel the World Cup 2010 now before it’s too late and heaven forbid, stop watching Avatar (I do agree on that one, but not because it was shot with Sony 1080p but because the story wasn’t in 4K detail, more like disintegrating analog beta with big-time skew)

8. Scarlet 2/3” low light performance has not been disclosed in relation to other camcorders and DSLR’s, and may INTENTIONALLY be the ultimate “SWITCH” feature. Let me explain… who stands to benefit most if the Red Scarlet has worse low light performance than a HDSLR or Sony EX? Red, of course… Red’s reply? Simply sell or keep your 8X Fixed body by buying more overpriced accessories and UPGRADE to the Scarlet S35 body for $7000 more! Either that or hire a lighting crew for your next production, you cheap Soccer moms! (No insult to meant to Futbol Moms, only cheap Soccer Moms). PLUS, now you need a new Red Pro Prime Lens for $4250 or you get no support for soft footage with a 3rd party lense! That’s $18,000 to Red when you factor in the total investment to make the kit better than a Canon 5D Mark II and get the best data and frame rates, and they could care less what you get for the 8X fixed trying to pawn it off like every other guy with a non-transferable warranty.

9. Red claiming how can you live with the dreaded compression and HD workflow for Sony, Canon, JVC and Panasonic as follows: shoot now, edit now with Premiere or Final Cut, deal with life’s realities of Compressed MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 distribution, make money now… The Red Scarlet workflow: hit the lotto and buy or rent the Red One or Epic and you must absolutely use the Red Rocket to get serious work done,- either that or stick your finger in a socket and tell me how clear the Red Scarlet picture is before compression to MPEG-2 or MPEG-4, because even Red doesn’t have a clue. (No, really, don’t do that even if Jim Jannard says to)

10. Red now announcing we all were once were blind and now we can see! We just need to put on our good Red glasses on and see the light waved by Leo DiCaprio… Make no mistake, the Red Scarlet is more like the Titanic than the Arc of the Lost Covenant ( no insult meant to Leo or God). Let’s be realistic, the Scarlet will never look like that footage at 1080p under similar lighting conditions with the stock lense or who’ll buy the Epic?


OUR SOLUTION:

Here’s my proposal: Why don’t 5000 of us all chip in $1 each and postage to buy only one Scarlet Fixed kit and pass it around for 2 years to beta test and benchmark it against our existing and new gear, from you to Philip Bloom to Rodney Charters to Vincent LaForet to Rick McCallum to Steve Weiss and everyone in between and finally me! We’ll sign it and ebay it off, donating the proceeds to my favorite “under-compensated videographer trying to catch a break” charity after that…

Can I find 4999 other volunteers to join me? Will you join me?

I’m the nameless nobody Red thinks it can walk all over, and I don’t want to be the April fool again this April at NAB 2010...

[Andrew Wilding]

It must have been an exceedingly rough Valentine's day, huh?

[Nick D]

Actually, great day with the family.

Just looking for a little honesty from my favorite DSMC company this Valentine's Day. Where's the love? ...

[Andrew Wilding]

I think they have been very honest. Incredibly honest actually. But you assume that what they say are lies and conspiracies - that they have "invented" the Asic issue as an outright lie to buy themselves time (or something along those line.) Do you only believe that something is "the truth" when it falls perfectly inline with your (potentially) far fetched beliefs?

[Andrew Wilding]

And no one is forcing you to buy red pro primes or a red rocket or any of the other products that Red makes. The fact of the matter is that Red makes equipment that performs with the big boys for a fraction of the cost. And for the record, these cameras aren't made for people who take issue with lighting there films! These are cameras that are in the league of 35MM FILM CAMERAS. For PEANUTS. Why dont you go and spend your 3000 on a 7D now. If you believe that the 7D is high enough quality for you, than IT IS. Buy one. If you are satisfied with only the highest quality, and dont believe that HDSLRs are even remotely appropriate for filmmaking, than drop the money on a red one, or get some patience and wait for the scarlet. This company is trying to make filmmaking tools, PROFFESIONAL FILM MAKING TOOLS, that are inexpensive and available to all. No one else is doing this. Don't be ungrateful. Give them some time to get things right, or go somewhere else with your money.

[Jason Ramsey]

Most of the points in your post are based on speculation and opinion rather than supported by any relevan fact. Or, stating a vague fact, or one that has little to do with the conclusion that you then draw which is based on further speculation/opinion.

b/c of that, it is kind of difficult to objectively respond to your post, as it is built largely around common intellectually-dishonest debated tactics...

i.e.
questioning the motives of the opponent, citing irrelevant facts or logic, hearsay, vagueness, etc.

For example, you state that they raised the price and claim to have added features. You imply that they have not added features b/c the framerates and resolution have stayed the same. However, there is a very clear list of features and functionality that have been added to Scarlet since it's original announcement. Most notably it evolving into part of a larger DSMC system, and continuing on with the list viewable on reduser and red.com from the nov. 30th announcement. You then conclude on that point by stating your own self-admitted speculation that the 5d was better and RED must have concocted a tale about their ASIC so that they could go back and redesign it.

And, it continues with points 2 - 10 :)

No offense, but all I see here is speculative, opinion based conclusions that are supported by typical "debate" tactics rather than fact.

People (not singling you out, but people from all camps) tend to get to emotionally invested in this stuff when they don't need to be, and then folks end up arguing about irrelevant speculative blah...

I think your first mistake was sitting on 3 grand for two years waiting for a "dream" camera. I would hope in that time you've been furthering your skill set and gaining experience, b/c all the stuff you hopefully have learned in the last two years about filmmaking (from study and actual experience) will be a far more important factor in your long term success or failure than the camera(s) you ultimately choose to shoot on.

I'm not trying to attack you, but if you are going to come out and accuse someone of false advertising, I would think it best to do so using information that is relevant and objective, rather than speculative, opinion based, and intellectually dishonest.

---

For the record, I keep hearing this talk about the reasons why people assume that reduser has closed down the "other cameras" forum. The title of this forum is pretty self-evident, but...

REDuser exists with the primary objectives of being a platform to establish an on-going dialog between RED and it's customers as well as to be an information and networking resource for users of RED equipment and other common tools. It is not here to be (and it was never its intention) a general camera discussion forum. Landmine already has a thriving, comprehensive community for that... dvxuser. We don't need another one, and there are plenty of other options out there for that as well if one is seeking that type of community...

News was slow coming for a while from RED and new toys were coming out and discussion of them was starting to spread around the entire board and focus was being lost. People needed an outlet and it was understandable at the time. So, the other cameras section was created to house that stuff in one convenient location, rather than letting it pollute completely unrelated threads with endless measuring contests, etc. News from RED is dropping now, as their program is really starting to move forward pretty quickly now with the release of the MX sensor upgrade program, and so, naturally, REDuser is shifting its focus back towards that, and away from a sub-forum of a sub-forum that didn't exist until relatively recently in the first place, and tended to bring out the worst in people.

A section that didn't even exist before a few months ago on this forum, and people are drawing all kinds of wild conclusions about the motives behind its closing. The motives are pretty simple. REDuser is getting back to basics, and serving its primary mission statement. As being the ultimate news, information, and networking resource for users of RED Camera's. If someone wants to discuss other cameras, they should do so on a community that provides that infrastructure, and does so in a much more comprehensive manner then a sub-forum of a sub-forum on reduser ever will... like dvxuser, or dvinfo, etc. If you are shooting RED and 7D and have a question, that is something that is relevant to this community. Far better options out there on the internet for discussing the 7d, or 5d or <flavor of the month>, so I don't see what the big deal is about the removal of a sub-sub-forum.

later,
Jaosn

[Dane Brehm]

So if RED had never been invented/Created what else would you have been bitching about? Does Sony have a SONYUSER.net or Panasonics.net for there users to sit and complain or praise their every move? Beggers can't be choosers.

1. First things first If it weren't for REDs creating the Market BIG camera manufacturer's wouldn't have been motivated to create camera's like the 5D or EX3 would still be $8K for 8bit 24p/1080.

2. I don't know about you, but I would rather wait a year (or 2) longer to get it right. I don't know about you but I spent a year nearly every week changing my story about what was working or not working on the Original RedOne. I don't want another "beta" camera system.

3. Yeah Scarlet is smaller and cost more then originally expected but I don't understand why any professional who owns/operates a camera would want the same manufacturer to create an obsolete model within a year. These are professional tools with professional investment not just a toy for a hack Wedding Videographer to show off? There still using XL2s or EX1s even.

4. Believe me EPIC isn't going to be widely available till Fall 2010/Winter2010 with Scarlet shortly behind.

5. This is a private company. You have no idea how much it takes to make /negotiate with vendors for part prices. Engineers have to invent the technology not just look it up on Wikipedia and say Oh thats how you do it. Do you know how to DeBayer a 12bit RAW BAYER PATTERN? Hints its not called half-high everywhere else:)

6. I started with a PD-100, the 150,then XL2, DVX, HVX, F900, Varicam and now a Red for almost 2 years. Not only were you still shooting Standard Def not 4 years ago before Jim Jannard had the BALLS to Sell his majority stake in Oakley to make YOU a 4K (3.2K) camera for less then $100,000. Your dreaming.

7. Shit Happens. People make choices. A wise man said "If your gonna do something, do it right". Take all the time you need as long as its done right.

8. Do you know what ASIC means? When you get a chance try to Operate and Export something on a Phantom Camera. You got it easy!

I don't mean to be negative its just people forget that 2 years ago they were barely using a DVX and now that they have access to RED they bitch about how long it takes to create the camera system from Body, Sensor, Ergonomics, workflow, tech support, delivery etc. Almost ungrateful:)

Go buy a 7D till Scarlet comes out I'm sure you'll make your money back.

Goodluck,

-
Dane

[Nick D]

I have no disagreement when it came to the Red One development and beta fixes. And I am not poor - I do have the money in cash for two Scarlet fixed or the S35 requiring SSD (over $10K) and the Sony EX or new Canon coming.

And here's the kicker: I don't care if Red EVER releases the Red Scarlet or not, but think they need to treat potential Red Scarlet clients such as myself as existing Red users with real projects, budgets and reasonable timeframes measured in months, not years. Either that, or have a concept page like auto manufacturers, and let people dream of the future be it next year or never...

I mixed both sarcasm and honesty in my post and feel you are missing the point...
I am exclusively talking about the Marketing Ethics (bad press for Scarlet = good free press for Red), and I have no desire for the broadcast Industry to follow this pattern of pre-announcing alpha to beta product without being extremely clear about pricepoints and delivery dates.

IF Red is truly sincere in transparency, I think an honest starting point would be removing the Red Scarlet and Red Ray 2009 ( a little late for that) from the Homepage products until they have working product to show with a reasonable ship date (like 90 days or less).

Best wishes.

[Jason Ramsey]

but think they need to treat potential Red Scarlet clients such as myself as existing Red users with real projects, budgets and reasonable timeframes measured in months, not years.

Sounds like you would be more comfortable with the more "traditional", much more closed development process of one of the big players. Nothing wrong with that. No surprises for you at least... peace of mind, I guess, b/c all the surprises take place behind the scenes rather than out in the open like many of them do here... most recently the ASIC issue (unless of course you believe that the ASIC issue was a conspiracy... that's another discussion entirely though :) )

RED does things differently. It's not for everyone. There is nothing wrong if you don't groove with their style of open development and grassroots marketing. But it doesn't mean it = conspiracies and false advertising...

later,
Jason

[Steve Das]

It's a new camera company trying to make cutting edge technology cameras..you're
being naive not to expect delays. Some of this stuff has never been done before...period...let alone at their price points.

[Tonaci Tran]

"but think they need to treat potential Red Scarlet clients such as myself as existing Red users with real projects, budgets and reasonable timeframes measured in months, not years."

"have clearly intentionally engaged in false advertising with the Red Scarlet pricing, specifications and release dates…"

You are sooo off base. Jim has said time and again (it is even posted at the bottom of Red's website):

"Specifications, prices and delivery dates are subject to change. Count on it. We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude."

Where is the false advertising?

[Nick D]

Please note that my original post was altered without my consent.

Item #8. actually originally reads: " ... Simply sell or keep your 8X Fixed body by buying more overpriced accessories and UPGRADE to the Scarlet S35 body for $7000 more! Either that or hire a lighting crew for your next production, you cheap Soccer moms! (No insult to meant to Futbol Moms, only cheap Soccer Moms). PLUS, now you need a new Red Pro Prime Lens for $4250 or you get no support for soft footage with a 3rd party lense! That’s $18,000 to Red when you factor in the total investment to make the kit better than a Canon 5D Mark II and get the best data and frame rates, and they could care less what you get for the 8X fixed trying to pawn it off like every other guy with a non-transferable warranty."

I hope "hoochie" moms are not offended by someone else's modification...

[Nick D]

It happened again!

Since when does Soccer Mom = Hoochie Mama?

[Nick D]

Why does the Red Forum keep changing "S-O-C-C-E-R M-O-M" to Hoochie Mama?

[Jason Ramsey]

b/c reduser doesn't like that word :)

[Stephen Gentle]

I really can't believe some of the things being said here - is this a joke or something? If not, here is some answers from my perspective:


1. Most obviously, the new estimated MSRP of $4750 before shipping for the Scarlet fixed kit. They claim the features were updated to better compete with the DSLR movement (more specifically Canon), but I see no change in their proposed resolution or frame rates. (I speculate that the Canon 5D Mark II turned out to be far superior to the Scarlet test unit, so they went back to the drawing board and invented the ASIC delay or as they call it - everything is “subject to change” according to Jim Jannard. We here in the Midwest USA call it “false advertising”…)

We all know how current SLRs are at shooting video (alising, moire, soft footage at 1080p) so I'm not going to bother talking about how silly it is to think Scarlet could be worse, so moving right along -

Why don't you try designing and fabricating some custom silicon with a few hundred million transistors on it and 29 (!) metal interconnect layers (a lot of chips I've seen inside have around five or six), and see how many respins it takes you... Remember that this is a massively complex undertaking, and a very expensive too - a typical custom ASIC costs upwards of $2 million to develop.

Really, it comes down to the fact that RED announced an idea for a product, with the words that it and its price were 'subject to change - count on it'. They did not make any promises on delivery dates or specs - just gave us their best guess at it. Now the camera is far better for a mild price rise. There is no way that anybody could see that as false advertising - that could only be true if they'd taken reservations and didn't deliver, or released a camera and said it was much better than it was.


2. To actually make the Red Scarlet useable at the higher data rates or 120 fps, you will need an extra $2000. The basic starting camera kit really costs $6750 unless you want to shoot only 24p or lower the data rate. (It’s for the Red SSD module, adaptor and reader or whatever Red invents when you finish reading the 1000+ pages of fine print in their forums. Besides- what other options do you have out there once they got your first five grand? Maybe a discontinued $399 Sanyo consumer 60p camcorder?)

This is a professional camera - that has been stressed from the beginning. I assure you that to most people here the fact that additional accessories would be required to take full advantage is pretty obvious... But that being said, I don't see any reason the RED Drive ($900) wouldn't be able to shoot a decent range of frame rates. This is not some marketing ploy - it's basic information theory...


4. Red has announced and continues to develop and release products for the new EPIC and Red One prior to the Scarlet, mostly lenses at $4250 and above! (If you have a check for the Red One or Epic at $17,500 or more, to the front of the line- you will be served now)

I think that RED is a much bigger company than you think - they do have the ability to make more than one thing at once. And anyway, some things, like their optics design, may be licensed from other companies.


7. Red is proclaiming that projects shot today in ANYTHING LESS THAN 4K is insufficient for future proofing new releases and revenue streams! (So does that mean the Scarlet 2/3” is DOA for “serious” videographers or film students, and 1080p 3D footage is useless for early adopters. Hmmm… cancel the World Cup 2010 now before it’s too late and heaven forbid, stop watching Avatar (I do agree on that one, but not because it was shot with Sony 1080p but because the story wasn’t in 4K detail, more like disintegrating analog beta with big-time skew)

RED are aiming this sentiment at the people shooting with cameras like the F35 (which is a $200,000+ camera)... These are people that are making really big budget projects that won't look anywhere near as good as they could have in the cinema in ten years. Scarlet 2/3" is still a damn good camera though for a myriad of other uses though.

Think about it this way - 16mm is great, and awesome for shooting student films, TV and so on. But you wouldn't want to use it for a big budget film shoot unless you wanted a very specific look.


8. Scarlet 2/3” low light performance has not been disclosed in relation to other camcorders and DSLR’s, and may INTENTIONALLY be the ultimate “SWITCH” feature. Let me explain… who stands to benefit most if the Red Scarlet has worse low light performance than a HDSLR or Sony EX? Red, of course… Red’s reply? Simply sell or keep your 8X Fixed body by buying more overpriced accessories and UPGRADE to the Scarlet S35 body for $7000 more!

Scarlet uses the same Mysterium-X sensor as the RED ONE upgrade and the upcoming EPIC s35 camera. Although the sensor has a higher pixel density, it should perform similarly in low light. And nobody would buy it unless it was a decent camera, so your idea that they're making a crappy camera to make people upgrade is just stupid.

Your post just gets a bit retarded from this point on, so I think that's enough from me...

[John Fairstein]

Need facts and analysis, not sarcasm.

[Marc Wielage]

So how did the premise of a “game changer” camcorder in 2008 turn into a con game in 2009, with lots of free press in the meanwhile?
Nick brings up some genuine issues. But bear in mind, a lot of this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If Red rushes the Scarlet out and it's full of bugs, they'll get yelled out for not doing enough R&D; if they take their time and do it right, they get yelled at for being late.

There's nothing preventing you from buying something else now, doing your project, and then when the Scarlet does ship, check it out and see if it's better than your existing camera. If it is, sell the latter and buy a Scarlet.

This is no different than waiting for a new Mac or a new car or anything else. You can wait a lifetime for things to get perfect, or you can just jump in and go for it now -- buyer's remorse be damned.

Maybe the best recourse is not to buy anything at all right now, and just rent what you need, get your project done in a reasonable amount of time, and save your money. It'll still be a valuable experience in the long run.

[Jeff Coatney]

Nick, I feel your pain. I posted my impressions of how much Scarlet has changed yesterday after Red day. Its a couple of posts back. The indigenous personnel are growing restless with regard to Scarlet;)!

I worked on a proprietary, highly specialized digital imaging system many years ago. It was a very high-end system capable of ultra high resolution and it was designed to replace a very large format, very costly film system. I was the internal project lead and I made sure the contractors were spending the program's money in a smart way and giving the organization that employed me a system that worked and operated at a sufficiently advanced technical level that would keep its capabilities current for the desired life-span. I say this only to preface that I am familiar with the technical challenges and the amount of engineering, R&D, and systems integration work that Red Digital Camera is currently facing.

I lived in Florida during this period and while I don't put myself in their technical shoes, I knew and worked with engineers and personnel from NASA, DARPA, DoD, Office of Naval Intelligence, The RAND Corporation, Lockheed-Martin, Los Alamos National Laboratory, fellow Developers from Kodak Advanced Imaging, Nikon and Polaroid. I say this not to "name drop", but to explain my background a little bit so that my comments can be taken in the context of your choice. Either I am a crackpot to be ignored or a fanboy or just another a-hole with an opinion its completely up to you.

IMHO, Red is facing some very serious obstacles that they are knocking aside one by one. Heat management could be a culprit. I very pointedly asked Jim to characterize what they're facing: is the problem the limit of the technology, or is it the way the technology is implemented in the form factor? Jim answered less like a product developer and more like a CEO, but his answer was revealing none-the-less. If the heat generated from the system is a factor, then I've seen their solution and it is probably the best option. Keep in mind that the kind of heat we're talking about has the potential to delaminate the motherboard. It can also fry the ASIC or any myriad components. Its also localized in the brain. I'm not saying that they have a heat issue, I'm repeating what Jim said some of the factors are that come into play when making a 5K at 100fps digital camera. I think the biggest issue is building the 29 layer ASIC. You don't know if you have a failure on each unit until its done and you test it, then if you confirm its bad, its not entirely clear when in the build process the failure occurred. Jim has committed to high volume inventories, so he may have to make three or four times the number of chips to satisfy demand. This drives up costs. I for one appreciate his commitment to his customers by offering us the full-value trade-in credit for Epic.

The fact that they can overcome these technical barriers is a testament to the deep well of tech talent they have amassed which is fueled by Jim Jannard's focus, drive and business acumen. Jim is pure rebel. He may well be the original "unhappy camper" and he's waited like the rest of us for a viable digital motion picture camera. The problem is (and continues to be) that getting the sensor, the software, the heat management system, the frame rates, the resolution, the form factor and an efficient file format together in one place at the same time is almost impossible. To do it affordably IS impossible for 99.99% of the governments, militaries, defense contractors, corporations and lottery winners in the world. But its more than just funding.

Red bypassed and or leap-frogged every player in the camera industry. Established and entrenched companies like Arri, Sony, Panasonic and Panavision should have created what we all wanted: a professional digital 35mm 4K motion picture camera-- but they didn't. They ignored the warnings of history, they ignored the onslaught of digital technology as it utterly swept aside the analog world in the late 1970's and early 1980's. The chief technology officer at Polaroid laughed in my face in the mid 90's when I asked him what the company's plan was to deal with the emerging digital camera market. So this is the world the much lauded legacy players lived in, which is all the more fascinating now when I see so many people lavish such loyalty on them. In my opinion they dropped the ball big time when they could have OWNED digital cinema if they only acted when it mattered. So who picks up the ball and runs with it? The guy that started Oakley. A Photographer that's waited like the rest of us to get a viable 35mm digital movie camera. Only this guy is willing to do something about it. Still, no one takes him and his Team seriously, however, and development still lags behind at the legacy player's camps.

[Jeff Coatney]

So Red now controls the field. This has an effect: Red is not trying to replace Arri or Panavision, Red's target is Kodak. Red One is a Kodak and Fuji killer. Arri and Panavision are just the delivery vehicles. 1080p is not the target, either: 4K is the target. This is the viable alternative to film in the form of a digital 35mm motion picture camera. 1080p is in Red's cross hairs because 4K has always been the primary resolution target from day one. But in order for 4K to take hold, 1080p has to give ground. Since Red's principle market is replacing 35mm film, the first battlefield is in acquisition, post and the DI suite.

While technical innovation eluded the legacy player's camera divisions, the digital tsunami struck their organizations in other ways: via film scanning and film recorders-- which are in fact digital cameras of a sort, yet they write to the medium of film. With the information on the film negative now digitized, it made sense to use it losslessly through to the coloring and DI process, only to regurgitate it back to a photochemical emulsion at the end. Economic forces conspired with the speed and processing power available at the time and you get the 2K finish which was perfectly acceptable when going to film.

But Red One replaces film, processing, telecine-- that's three cottage industries down in one fell swoop. Red One replaces Tape - that's another foot full of toes stepped on by the folks from Orange county - take away Sony and Panasonic. Add Digital projection and you take out the last vestiges of film plus every photochemical lab in town. In less than five years, digital technology has cut a swath through this company town's industrial heart. The next prisoner to be handed a blindfold is the Post House. Rapid propagation of file-based digital cameras kills the industrial infrastructure of Hollywood. This is the upside. And not solely the fault of Jim Jannard or his customers. Digital innovations have been chipping away at the movies for twenty years.

Downside: the global economic collapse, coupled with Red's rapid expansion creates a perfect storm of conditions for Red's slow-paced competitors. Development is expensive. Arri introduces new cameras, yet they fall precipitously short of the 4K goal that Red set as the state-of-the-art benchmark that the entire industry should march towards. The propagation of 4K projectors to the tune of 12,000 in north America within the next three years and Red's control of the market makes 4K acquisition the defacto standard for theatrical exhibition of non 3D, digital content in this market. Faced with the one certainty of the digital revolution: "you cannot scale up your resolution", Red's competitors must solve the 4K question before they field their product. Anyone that competes with Red must provide better or equal results in the following areas: resolution, color, dynamic range, workflow. The problem is that the pace of innovation that Red has set is nearly impossible to predict and this is known among its competitors.

We are at a kind of bizarre stasis point. With Red's commitment to 4K, all the company's development efforts are pushed in the direction of Epic first. 5K at 100fps is the seminal benchmark for the product launch. When Epic ships: it must be capable under certain circumstances of hitting 5K at 100fps. This is the flag ship product. This product both captures the acquisition market handily and forces Post Houses to conform to the Red post model. This is Red's chance to correct mistakes introduced with Red One, namely, allowing the end user to participate in the product's shake down. This only caused a wellspring of FUD to foolishly erode confidence in the camera, with the added result of causing Red's competitors to enter the economic crisis overconfident of their position in the market. They only had to best the Red One and they're back to being number one, they thought. This is where the FUDsters did Red the biggest favor in the whole wide world: namely, by trying to undermine Red's reputation as a serious camera, and lavishing undeserved brand loyalty towards their favorite camera systems, they led Red's competitors to believe that their own development programs were sound, when in fact they are probably behind the curve somewhat. Do they move forward with a model that may be obsolete when Epic ships? Or do they wait to see what Red does before they chart their course?

With Scarlet, Red is in direct competition with Sony and Panasonic. Here's where the delays have helped the eventual Scarlet user: from NAB 2007, Red has pushed their sensor development program, most likely using targeted milestones of resolution, dynamic range, frame rates. We know Scarlet is a 2/3" sensor, currently set at 3K. Now back to the viability of 2K for a minute: while it is true that a 4K world awaits us in 3 to 5 years, a true 2K camera, in the hands of the prosumer, has a lifespan of at least 7 years. Within this seven year time frame, Scarlet 2/3" will increase resolution through sensor upgrades and the secret ingredient of RedCode will become increasingly more efficient. To ensure the camera's viability for this as yet unmeasured product cycle, Red has to cram the little beast with as many advances as they can to ensure a upgrade path that won't break the customer. Enter the 29 layer ASIC and the additional board stack.

Had Red launched the Scarlet at the end of 2007 or Spring of 2008, the innovation on the camera would have plateaued and the cameras would have hit the street at basically the beginning of the biggest economic crisis since the depression. Instead, either by luck or by design, Red held onto the Scarlet and allowed development to continue. Now the Scarlet is a better camera, incorporating the new color science at the get-go and it will hit the street as a supremely viable professional/prosumer tool, landing on the street just as the economy is on its very slow positive trajectory.

As for false advertising: there is no case to be made, because Red has not accepted payment for the product, nor shipped any units. The added caveat: "specs and delivery dates are subject to change: count on it" provides all the wiggle room they need. But one thing's for sure: very soon, probably before another christmas tree gets lit, you'll be shooting with your Scarlet.

[Gary Paul Walker]

Unlike most companies, Red keep us updated with developments that (with companies such as JVC, Sony etc), wouldve gone unstated. When was the last time you saw a post from Sony telling a forum about the R&D of a product thats yet to be released?
I'll bet that other camera companies are in a similar stage of development with their new cameras but dont feel the need to converse with the community to which they're product will be sold.

One thing I've learnt from reading the many many posts on this forum is that Red is not just another company, its very much a community - they read what you post and keep it in mind when its time for some R&D. For better or worse, that means that we feel the same frustrations (particularly when it comes to release dates) that I'm sure Jim and et al feel.

[Richard Goodwin]

If you have a low budget and need to shot now why not buy something else? That is what I did until Scarlet comes out. In my case a 5DMKII. It lets me work on projects for now until a RED solution in my budget range comes out. And, you can rent pretty affordably if you feel your project requires a higher scale format such as RED.

On that note I think we should be clear I’m not so sure Canon’s recent aggressive push into the video space with their DSLR’s would have been quite as aggressive if it were not for RED (and Nikon to some degree). The fact is Scarlet is a Laser Guided Missile aimed at Canon’s ProSumer Video Bunker. Faulting RED for taking the proper time to develop a field tested, and high quality product (with much more transparency than Canon ever has) is not unfair. It’s just inaccurate.

Finally, there are just a lot of technical inaccuracies in your post. A lot of emphasis is how the Scarlet will be lesser in DR, sensitivity etc. And how overall “we will never get that kind of footage”. Now, Scarlet will use the same sensor as Epic. So, other than resolution it should have fairly similar characteristics (not identical but close). A 3K Scarlet will produce footage that will be able to compete with much of the video and higher speed stocks used in Indie and Documentary production.

While a shot lit with a single match shot by Scarlet may not look as good on a 70 foot screen as one shot with 4.5K MX; it’s gonna look darn good on 20-40 foot screen and very much on a DVD screener. That is really is the format that you are most likely submit to a festival or distributor. The difference being that if you do get in the door and on to a bigger screen the footage will do you proud.

Again, there are great choices right now to create with for lower budgets. They will only get better over time. And, when Scarlet comes out you can rent before you buy. But, a total (and in places inaccurate) dismissal of RED is not going to speed things up.

[Billy Barber]

We should all, especially the people at Red, give Nick D a huge round of applause for his courage in facing this board with what are real emotional, not technical, issues. And may I remind everyone we are in the business of emotions.

A business’ worst nightmare is not the customer who articulates his problems with a product or service. A company’s worst nightmare is the customer who decides the company failed him AND NEVER TELLS YOU WHY.

[Jason Ramsey]

We should all, especially the people at Red, give Nick D a huge round of applause for his courage in facing this board with what are real emotional, not technical, issues. And may I remind everyone we are in the business of emotions.

A business’ worst nightmare is not the customer who articulates his problems with a product or service. A company’s worst nightmare is the customer who decides the company failed him AND NEVER TELLS YOU WHY.

I think you might be confusing "drama" with something else...

he's not a customer... So far, just someone who is re-hashing conspiracy theories and the like without any real foundation in anything objective... anything other than emotion.

I'm all for someone voicing reasonable, and rational concern. Wish more people could figure out how to do it... Would make for some more productive discussion to read and learn from. But, I don't see what there is to applaud about accusing a company of intentional false advertising and concocting hoaxes without any real proof or anything more than an emotional hunch...

[Jim Retar]

My personal opinion on this is....

a) RED are not as deceiving as this post (and others I have read) make out. They really do seem to have the customers interest at heart and seem geniunly disappointed to let anyone down.

b) RED are not quite as transparent as the die hard fans would make out.... (it would be commercial suicide for any company to be 100% transparent)

An example is the Scarlet s35 (this is purley my speculation).... it is, for alot of users here, the holy grail of price/specs.... but I do think it will be very much on the back burner untill the Epic line is out. This could be to stop customers downgrading from Epic to s-S35... or could be that they will use sensors that didn't quite cut it at Epic level for the S-s35.... if this speculation were true... RED would not say it, and i'm sure there have been instances, like the above situation, where RED decide to be less transparent... it is inevitable and all business' have to do it.

Overall though, if you are interested in RED you have to stand by the mantra "subject to change".

On a side note.... those saying Nikon/Canon released a video mode to compete with RED are living in fantasy land. Since the day "live view" mode was launched, the idea of DSLR video was born and talked about.

[Gary Paul Walker]

But, I don't see what there is to applaud about accusing a company of intentional false advertising and concocting hoaxes without any real proof or anything more than an emotional hunch...

I think I detected a small hint of sarcasm in Billys post...

[Jason Ramsey]

oh.... My bad :) it's 6am, here... sleepy

Was really scratching my head on that one...

later,
Jason

[Ben Brainerd]

he's not a customer...

I'm not going to go into much of the issue, since it's been covered all over, better than I could. But I'd like to make one point that Jason kinda grazed by before I go to bed:

It can't be false advertising if there's no product. You can *call* it false advertising and get all huffed up about it, but, well, "...subject to change..."

[Miles Wilkerson]

Wow. This is an interesting thread. I agree with the dude who says 'rent'. If you are only shooting one project you don't need to buy. Put that money on the screen instead. It's not the gear that makes the images work it's the people behind the gear. Put any camera in a room with NO lights and all the images will look the same.... Like crap.

[MichaelHalsell]

Nick,

My guess is that you probably made Jim's short list. I would have given you credit for putting your 'balls on the table', but unfortunately, you ducked behind the real name policy.

You sound like a well read board reader, so unfortunately you don't get a noob pass. Nevertheless, you wording came across as quite incendiary. I hope the moderators choose not to ban you, giving you a chance to revisit this conversation when the Scarlet is a more common product or at least when the 'proof is in the pudding'.

[Gary Paul Walker]

I would have given you credit for putting your 'balls on the table'...


Best. Phrase. Ever.

[Billy Barber]

Nick is not a customer? Fair enough. But I am a customer. Or at least I was. (#004615) I had made my down payment and had the money in hand for a Red One just before the Scarlet/Epic announcements of Dec 2008. Then I heard rumblings about a new smaller lighter and cheaper Red so I waited.
If Nick crossed the line into conspiracy theory land allow me to be presumptuous and argue the case from a slightly different angle.

Everything changes? Really? Unconditional love for your children? A kiss is still a kiss? Or more to the point: deadlines? I worked as a composer and music supervisor for CBS and ABC for twenty years. Nothing EVER changed, at least not from my end. Something like 5000 cues for some real mediocre television and news specials. If I had missed even one deadline and offered an explanation about improper signal to noise ratios or 60 cycle hum or this is really difficult I would have been fired. Cancelled family vacations,etc- whatever it took.This is nothing out of the ordinary. It’s what professionals do. So why is a deal not a deal when it comes to Scarlet?

There’s obviously a lot to admire about Red. And someone like Jim who puts his money where his mouth is. Most of all it seems like they’re having fun and their passion is contagious. So if one is trying to be productive going forward I’m reminded of the old adage ‘the perfect is the enemy of the good’. Perhaps less complicated would have been better. I don’t know. I’m just a customer waiting to receive a product.

[Nick D]

Thank you for all your time and replies. I appreciate the Red Moderator not ripping my post down and "the love" on Valentines Day.

I think Red has truly served the film community well with the Red One and now Epic in this regard, and am both honest and sarcastic in my post because really, I have nothing else to show for the time invested...

However, I feel that RED has equally DAMAGED the purchasing plans of legitimate Videographers such as myself who would have been happy with other gear in the meanwhile after 2008 NAB, now to the point I had to speak out...

My main complaint is that at this stage the dishonest (OK- partially honest but frequesntly MISLEADING) MARKETING on pricing and delivery dates = Free press, which HAS affected videographers purchasing decisions to make suitable investments from 2008 to 2010 in the $10,000 Category and under, be it on bodies, lenses, etc which HAS hurt the Industry in whole...

I raise the question now because I think Red "Transparency" over the last year has now become full-blown "Propaganda" and taken on a different tone to myself as a potential Fixed or S35 Scarlet client, and I am DISGUSTED that they censored the OTHER CAMERAS forum. In the meanwhile, they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it, instead of removing the Scarlet and Red Ray 2009 from their homepage products, and waiting their turn until they have shipping product in 90 days or less to put them back up, and to allow an outside firm to conduct true price equivalent comparisons for Canon and Sony reps to witness, verify and respond to.

For Red to not have shipping Scarlet product 2 years later and now trying to bash Canon or Sony who has legitimate product in the $10K under price range for decades, I think is simply offensive no matter who the company is.

I hope we can collectively request Red to remove the Scarlet product from the home page and show it on a concept product page until 90 days from launch with real working product to show... either that or have Red come clean about the Scarlet final product specs, pricing and delivery date now. I prefer the later...

I hope other equipment manufacturers resist following suit than what we are currently seeing from the Red marketing and development team...

Truly disappointing to a potential Scarlet client...

[Joe Walker]

Is renting not an option for you?

[Gary Paul Walker]

In the meanwhile, they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it,

The thread you're talking about:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41220
seems pretty legitimate as a test, and to be fair Jim has stated that the 7D is
'an EXCELLENT stills camera. Worth the money for that alone.'

It seems fair that if the 7D is going to pitch itself toward the motion market, then it should be held to scrutiny against its (potential) competitors.

[Tonaci Tran]

Thank you for all your time and replies. I appreciate the Red Moderator not ripping my post down and "the love" on Valentines Day.

I think Red has truly served the film community well with the Red One and now Epic in this regard, and am both honest and sarcastic in my post because really, I have nothing else to show for the time invested...

However, I feel that RED has equally DAMAGED the purchasing plans of legitimate Videographers such as myself who would have been happy with other gear in the meanwhile after 2008 NAB, now to the point I had to speak out...

My main complaint is that at this stage the dishonest (OK- partially honest but frequesntly MISLEADING) MARKETING on pricing and delivery dates = Free press, which HAS affected videographers purchasing decisions to make suitable investments from 2008 to 2010 in the $10,000 Category and under, be it on bodies, lenses, etc which HAS hurt the Industry in whole...

I raise the question now because I think Red "Transparency" over the last year has now become full-blown "Propaganda" and taken on a different tone to myself as a potential Fixed or S35 Scarlet client, and I am DISGUSTED that they censored the OTHER CAMERAS forum. In the meanwhile, they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it, instead of removing the Scarlet and Red Ray 2009 from their homepage products, and waiting their turn until they have shipping product in 90 days or less to put them back up, and to allow an outside firm to conduct true price equivalent comparisons for Canon and Sony reps to witness, verify and respond to.

For Red to not have shipping Scarlet product 2 years later and now trying to bash Canon or Sony who has legitimate product in the $10K under price range for decades, I think is simply offensive no matter who the company is.

I hope we can collectively request Red to remove the Scarlet product from the home page and show it on a concept product page until 90 days from launch with real working product to show... either that or have Red come clean about the Scarlet final product specs, pricing and delivery date now. I prefer the later...

I hope other equipment manufacturers resist following suit than what we are currently seeing from the Red marketing and development team...

Truly disappointing to a potential Scarlet client...

You spend too much time whining and blaming and not shooting.

[Tonaci Tran]

What RED is doing... making cameras, thus far, no other company has an answer to (red one) in truly remarkable. They literally come out of no where, against companies with WAY much more experience in building cameras and delivered.

Red never took your money for the scarlet..in fact you can't even pre-order one..and here you are complaining about missed "target" dates? Jim's never promised you anything.

[DCC Erickson]

You spend too much time whining and blaming and not shooting.

And then there's that overweening sense of entitlement that seems to pervade the web. Just because a forum exists for venting your personal dramas doesn't mean you should use it, or that anyone wants to hear from you. A professional takes responsibility for their choices, and they make the most of what's available. I'm sorry it's not a perfect world, now go do something usefull.

[Steven Caesare]

Nicky my man!

I sincerely hope you opt to not buy any Scarlet's when they come out. Seriously.

And I'll make the offer to buy your now-ratty Red tee shirt from you so you can re-coup some of your investment in Red The Product, as you clearly haven't come to appreciate Red The Philosophy.

Your post is so full of emotional-lashing-out as opposed to actual facts and events that's they aren't woth adrressing individually. Other responses have already done that. It all boils down to the fact that you weren't a big enough boy to read or understand the disclaimer that Jim has posted about a bazillion times, and adorns the red.com website.

So for every one of the forum-jockey's who posted the intellectual equivalent of some 17-yr old emo kid piercing his nose and wearing black nail polish because his mommy didn't love him, there are hopefully 10 of us who appreciate what level of transparency we DO get from Red, recognize what "subject to change" means, actually used our education to understand the Epic/Scarlet timeline targets represented, recognized Red is a Business, and changed the product (including pricepoint) they opted to devlelop and did our own personal value calculations to see if we want to buy the product, etc...

So, please, life without you in the Red Ownership Koolaid Klub would be much more fun, and besides, if you leave than there's one less person in line for my Scarlet.

Buh bye.

-sc

[Lancelot Jean Mallia]

I have to say, that far to much of your energy is being expended on complaining. Go out rent a camera if your being delayed. If not, invest time into preproduction or anything that will make your final shoot with whatever variation of the Red modality you want even better.

[Tonaci Tran]

Love RED or hate em Nick, the choice is up to you. Buy scarlet when it comes out or not. Keep ranting on now or not.. either way it will not speed up scarlet delivery.

It took me several posts to realize I just so wasted my time replying to this thread. I gotta get out of here.

[Meryem Ersoz]

I have nothing else to show for the time invested...



You have got to be kidding here.

Reduser is a rich resource, regardless of whether you even pick up a camera or not. Supplied for free. Cheaper than film school. Interactive with some of the brightest minds on the web. And RED has taken time away from development for ponsoring free events, like RED Day and their NAB event, where you can speak directly with the developers of these technologies, even make friends with them, and see bleeding-edge innovations in progress.

Even if I wasn't shooting a RED camera, I'd still pay attention to what is here because there is so much to learn, so many great models to emulate, and a lot to learn from people who work at very high levels. The access to production diaries and works-in-progress is unparalleled.

If all you did was review the reels and trailers posted online here, you'd be learning so much that, if you took these lessons seriously, you would already be past the $3000 SCARLET category. This kind of knowledge is money in the bank.

And if you can't understand that, then SCARLET is probably more camera than you need, anyway -- save yourself a couple bucks and go pick up one of the alternatives, there are lots of great, cheap cameras out there.

You don't have to wait until this April to be a fool - you have already squandered a tremendous opportunity, if you really, truly believe that you have "nothing to show" for all your time.

You control your creative destiny, no one else. And certainly not a camera.

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

I'm also waiting and waiting for Scarlet to arrive. But this gives me time to put all things in order.
For the moment I'm still shooting small project with my Canon XL1. Not XL1s, XL2, XH-A1 or some other camera.
Before I even buy a Scarlet, I'll have to see the results. Than compare with other cameras. I'm still defining a good workflow. Playing with R3D files with my current computer hardware. Can I use it or do I need new hardware? If so, I don't buy it now, I'll wait.
For the moment I don't have time to learn new cameras like a Canon 5D MII or a Canon XH-A1. For me, that's losing money and time that I beter can save for later when Scarlet is ready and approved.
And if Scarlet is not 'THE' camera for me, than I can decide to look for something else. But for the moment I'll wait.
Perhaps RED is working on a 4K Scarlet. Jim said that 4K is the way to go. So way still think of a 3K Scarlet. Things can change... ;-)

[Matthew Duclos]

Fail

[Jim Retar]

they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it

This is something I will agree with you on.... This is one of the few things that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth with REDuser. Canon don't need to do test plates for a sony $100 point and shoot to try and get one over Sony.... so RED don't need to do test plates on a $1500 camera to try and get one over Canon.

When Scarlet 2/3" comes out, then by all means do a comparison (both still and video) of a high end Canon/Nikon camera. Apples for Apples (at least price wise) please.

[Brandon Kraemer]

I would have given you credit for putting your 'balls on the table', but unfortunately, you ducked behind the real name policy.

...which seems reason enough to lock this user until they get properly registered. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. Unless first name, last initial qualifies as a "Real Name", I am getting tired of so many exceptions to this rule. Other forums have a registration delay of 24 hours while your real name info gets vetted.

I can only speculate that if this rule was upheld more, we'd have a better signal to noise ratio on here, making information easier to find.

[Darren Orange]

I am not going to say too much, but obviously this guy was not at RED Day and has never tried working with 7D or 5D footage. BTW the low light is awful on the 7D and 5D they create tons of compression noise at high ISO and in the darks always.

Frankly after RED Day I'd say RED footage (M or MX 4K or 4.5K) can rival IMAX, given the 70' wide screen. I see no reason why Scarlet 3K would not blow away anything 35mm. I think it's about time I make that post...after seeing this.

A standard IMAX screen is 22 m × 16.1 m (72 ft × 53 ft), but can vary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAX

[alex lemon]

To the original poster:

Dude. Get a grip.

[DCC Erickson]

You have got to be kidding here.

Reduser is a rich resource, regardless of whether you even pick up a camera or not. Supplied for free. Cheaper than film school. Interactive with some of the brightest minds on the web ...

Exactly. I feel like a thief - scanning threads, learning a whole lot more than I'd ever learn in school. What lenses are great, workflow fixes, what's the hip style, best gear. I cackle with delight every time I see a new post from an expert, laying it all out for me - happy to share real experience and real knowledge. It's a gift that keeps on giving and is too easily taken for granted.

If there were no product at all, this message board would still be worth the price of a graduate degree in film production and much more.

[Stuart English]

Canon don't need to do test plates for a sony $100 point and shoot to try and get one over Sony.... so RED don't need to do test plates on a $1500 camera to try and get one over Canon.

With respect, it's not a question of "getting one over" anybody. Perhaps it's not appreciated just how passionate Jim and the entire RED team are about not short changing image quality. The RED ONE web page statement that "pixel shifting and up-rezzing not spoken here" is very specifically pointed directly at that issue.

There have been several suggestions made recently that if you just have "X million" pixels in your sensor, then you would essentially have what a RED ONE offers you. However visual proof that this statement is not true - and that the sensor exists as part of an overall camera system - was illustrated to those who attended RED DAY.

[Darren Orange]

However visual proof that this statement is not true - and that the sensor exists as part of an overall camera system - was illustrated to those who attended RED DAY.

Hence the IMAX size screen with RED footage on it that looks as good as IMAX or better.

vs

The Canon 7D on a 40" LCD at 1080P with visible noise/compression at 320ISO. (this is from personal testing)


Also lets not forget that your also talking about RED4K compression at 15mb/s on the IMAX size screen and no visible compression or noise.

[Jon Carr]

Nick your expecting WAY TO MUCH from a still NEW COMPANY. You should try to put yourself in there shoes. How old is RED? How long have they been in the market? A company this young just can not produce a new camera every year like canon, sony or panasonic and flood the market. They just don't have the capital, resources, and manufacture capabilities like other camera companies that been around for almost forever do. With the amount of money and research there putting into the epic/scarlet designs, it could make or brake their company. If they did release the scarlet as promised with out finishing the R&D work. What would happen if the camera had some serious fault when in the hands of the consumers? A wrong move like that can kill a new business. Especially a business that is invested in electronics such as this. Also your not really thinking the Scarlet/Epic camera designs through, who else designed cameras like this for the price? You have the ability to start out with the most basic 3k scarlet package and eventually end up with the epic, and not having to buy a complete new package. You should be happy that a company like this is keeping its users (and competitors) up to date on their camera development. I think there doing fine, there doing what they said they would do, as soon as every whos upgrading their sensors are done they should be testing the tattoos to the flew people they know who's gonna test the hell out of it to make sure there's big uniform seen no problems with the design, cause there's no really going back once there in production.

[Andrew Rieger]

I think a ton of complaints would be simply alleviated with the release of some teaser footage from the Scarlet 2/3". Now I love Red's projects and I don't care how long they take to make the Scarlet.

Here is my plea to Red: Just give us some quick tests with the budget system so at least we can get some idea what we are working with. I know there was a working testbed a couple of months ago so it should be no problem. Just get some shots of a color chart, zone plate, night street footage, some DOF tests ect. 5 min max just to keep the faithful alive.

Now I am not comparing Canon quality to Red but there was 5D footage several months before anyone who was not some big shot tester, got their cameras, so if Red is as close as they say they are (which I believe), than some tests should not be too difficult.

Honestly, my theory is that with the release of the tattoo program, Red is focused on their high end gear for those customers that were loyal from the beginning (or had the money to be loyal from the beginning). Nothing wrong with that. That is why most things we are seeing are MX and workflow related. Scarlet is under development but it is on the back burner compared to the MX update and the Epic tattoo program. Again, nothing wrong with that.

What we need now are some previews of the 2/3" sensors abilities. Nothing perfect just a little teaser to get an idea and get the creative juices flowing. Until then, everything is just speculation as to what the final product will deliver. It is the uncertainty that is driving posts like this.

[Jim Retar]

With respect, it's not a question of "getting one over" anybody. Perhaps it's not appreciated just how passionate Jim and the entire RED team are about not short changing image quality. The RED ONE web page statement that "pixel shifting and up-rezzing not spoken here" is very specifically pointed directly at that issue.


Well, I could counter that by saying Canon are passionate about amazing ISO in still imagery.... A 7D would blow away the sony $100. Canon will never go out of their way to prove their ISO superiority over a 15x less expensive camera though.

Just giving my opinion (and advice).... I think RED should just concentrate on showing off the amazing steps they are taking.... they don't need to show the world how bad anyone else is. There are enough video forums to keep track on the performance of every new camera.

[David Rasberry]

I think a ton of complaints would be simply alleviated with the release of some teaser footage from the Scarlet 2/3". Now I love Red's projects and I don't care how long they take to make the Scarlet.
.

I am sure they will post footage as soon as the new electronics are debugged and in place to do so. Which means after Tattoo as the basic image processing chips are part of the same development process for all models. We have seen test bed footage demonstrating the sensor, but more of the same is of little value.


Well, I could counter that by saying Canon are passionate about amazing ISO in still imagery.... A 7D would blow away the sony $100. Canon will never go out of their way to prove their ISO superiority over a 15x less expensive camera though.


In all fairness it wasn't Red that started the comparisons, but Canon fans. Rational responses like test charts to counter obviously wrong assertions about Canon's video quality are certainly within reason.

[Jim Retar]

In all fairness it wasn't Red that started the comparisons, but Canon fans. Rational responses like test charts to counter obviously wrong assertions about Canon's video quality are certainly within reason.

Well, it was equally Canon fanboys and Red fanboys who were making these threads... both trying to get a one up over each other.

I think RED should just showcase their own technology and leave comparisons to the users..... the serious money customers on here know what is what and what they need.

[Andrew Rieger]

We have seen test bed footage demonstrating the sensor, but more of the same is of little value.

I don't think the lizard footage counted. For one, it was 5 seconds long, showed no movement and gave us no idea about the dof or the low light capabilities. Still, if it was good enough to post online, im not sure why they did not show us something more.

I'm not asking for progress footage, just little clips to see the chip characteristics, nothing has to be set in stone but 2/3" will be 2/3" in terms of dof and low light and there is nothing Red can do to get around that. At this point, the sensor is close or done so a little teaser would really clear things up.

At this point, I have resorted to looking at SI 2K footage to get an idea of what to expect from the Scarlet, since it is the closest living relative at this time.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Well, it was equally Canon fanboys and Red fanboys who were making these threads... both trying to get a one up over each other.

I think RED should just showcase their own technology and leave comparisons to the users..... the serious money customers on here know what is what and what they need.

RED's user base is not just "serious money customers" - there are a lot of users for whom this camera represents a huge stretch, and they want this education, they want to know what they are paying for. They want to sleep well at night, knowing this was an intelligent use of funds. I see nothing at all wrong with RED trying to help its user base grasp the inner workings of complex technologies.

If you are not a current user, you may have a different perception of their intent, that it is somehow Canon bashing or some other misguided interpretation. But this is how I perceive it - as an educational service to their existing customer base. Your mileage may vary. Their zone plates didn't stop me from buying a 7D, because sometimes you have to sacrifice image quality for portability, hopefully EPIC and SCARLET's release mean that I will never have to make such compromises again. But meanwhile, I like knowing what I'm giving up in the process.

That's solid information - no negative descriptors like "fanboy" required.

I kind of wish that fanboy would go the way of that other phrase that automatically defaults to "Hootchie Mama" - it's totally negative and misleading.

[David Rasberry]

2/3" will be 2/3" in terms of dof and low light and there is nothing Red can do to get around that.

Sony's current gen top line 2/3" ENG camera carries a 1600 ISO rating and the new FW800 CineAlta is rated at 800 ISO. I expect Red can do pretty well in this regard too. Much better than current under $10k video cams for sure. Maybe even on par with the Sony's which would be fairly comparable to the M-X S35. There is more to low noise and low light sensitivity than just sensor size or pixel size.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I have a simple theory. RED has always been optimistic. They were optimistic with the REDOne schedule. They are optimistic with the Scarlet schedule. Not much else to it. They don't add a lot if any buffer to their estimates.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If you are not a current user, you may have a different perception of their intent, that it is somehow Canon bashing or some other misguided interpretation. But this is how I perceive it - as an educational service to their existing customer base. Your mileage may vary. Their zone plates didn't stop me from buying a 7D, because sometimes you have to sacrifice image quality for portability, hopefully EPIC and SCARLET's release mean that I will never have to make such compromises again. But meanwhile, I like knowing what I'm giving up in the process.

Exactly. :attention9ha:

I think many people are missing the point of the zone plate postings. It's not to bash these other cameras, but rather to show where the compromises are and what RED is offering in contrast to these vDSLRs. Many people on the forums here are already familiar with all this and don't really understand why we have to do it all over again. But there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there. Simply posting a zone plate from a RED One does not mean a whole lot to someone who casually looks at it without any frame of reference. So throw up a 7D plate for comparison -- OMFG, it's hurting my eyes, take it away... Why would anyone post that? They must be trying to bash Canon or something.. Whatever.

The 7D is a great camera for the money. Initially, the video was a great selling point for me. Although, having shot a fair bit of video with it, I now cringe at the thought of doing so. But it's still another tool in the toolbox and fits into places where the RED One just can not go. Like many fellow 7D owners on these forums, I can't wait for the DSMC cameras to ship. The day I can have a DSLR style camera that can be built up as compact as I need or as big and featured as I want and always with the ability to shoot RAW... Oh, what a happy day that will be.

[Jason Ramsey]

7 pages?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't think the lizard footage counted. For one, it was 5 seconds long, showed no movement and gave us no idea about the dof or the low light capabilities. Still, if it was good enough to post online, im not sure why they did not show us something more.

I'm not asking for progress footage, just little clips to see the chip characteristics, nothing has to be set in stone but 2/3" will be 2/3" in terms of dof and low light and there is nothing Red can do to get around that. At this point, the sensor is close or done so a little teaser would really clear things up.

At this point, I have resorted to looking at SI 2K footage to get an idea of what to expect from the Scarlet, since it is the closest living relative at this time.

You could look at RED M-X footage cropped to 3k and probably get a fairly accurate idea.

[Bryce O]

I see no reason why Scarlet 3K would not blow away anything 35mm. I think it's about time I make that post...after seeing this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAX

Resolution and color wise? Probably. But aesthetically? Not even close. I was shooting with a HPX 2/3" this weekend and even with the fujinon lens at f1.5 wide open, it was still relatively flat until you get over 65mm. Sure you can make it look good, but generally 2/3" just doesn't pop like 35mm (and yes, even 35mm with artifacts). Otherwise, why wasn't the Red One 2/3"?

I read a comment earlier that DSLRs are not even remotely suited for film making. Stupidest comment I've ever heard. I think in the last decade we seen that pretty much ANY camera is suited for film making, let alone one that actually shoots 35mm. You could even say that DSLRs are actually the best cameras learning film making, in the sense that they teach important lessons. Like... DON'T RECORD AUDIO TO YOUR CAMERA. Any comment made about a DSLR not being a proper film making tool, due to poor audio recording, is thoroughly idiotic. Will the Scarlet (or any camera) record 24bit 96khz audio with an on board tube pre-amp + compressors and mixers? Some day hopefully. Until then, film makers need to realize capturing audio and capturing images are worlds apart. And should never be looked at as one and the same. You will never learn this lesson quicker than with the complete garbage that is DSLR audio. Is DSLR footage soft? Yea, but who cares. The resolution they capture fall into the "good enough" category. Especially since web delivery is most common these days. But, in the extremely rare case (and this applies to Red shooters and DSLR shooters alike) your dumb indie film actually gets theatrical distribution, your "soft 1080p footage" will be blown-up, up-ressed, cleaned, and sharpened by a multi-million dollar finishing house before the master film print. And besides 80% of the population still can't tell the difference between up-resed DVD and blu-ray. Besides, for horror, drama, and comedy (the three biggest indie genres) you don't need the resolution.

For indie film making, the DSLR's still look like the better choice. This especially goes for indie comedies where a multi-camera setup for capturing improv and such is much more important than resolution.

Why will the Scarlet still kick ass? VFX and 3D. A fixed lens Scarlet 3D rig is looking like it will destroy every other option out there. Shallow DOF looks terrible in 3D. Deep detailed frames where you're free to look around are the way to go and 2/3" seems like the perfect combination of deep focus and just enough depth to avoid a completely flat picture. And the high-frame rate will allow you to eliminate motion blur, the 24fps standard is the biggest killer of a fluid and natural stereoscopic experience. Scarlet will revolutionize stereoscopic production for both indie film makers and high-budget productions alike.

For traditional narratives though... I still want 35mm. If nothing else, for the freedom and selection of lenses. My biggest problem with the Scarlet line is lens choice. The fixed T2.6 is just too slow for shallow DOF and low-light photography. Even Pannny and Canon pro-summers go down to f1.6 range. And the mini-primes, even though I've heard are great lenses, seem like a waste at almost a grand each. When you upgrade to s35 Scarlet or Epic, what are you going to do with your s16 primes you dumped 5 grand into? Sell them? To who? You can't use them with larger formats, there's no still photography market for 16mm, and ENG crews use zooms. The fixed lens will still revolutionize VFX for low-budget productions though when you won't want shallow DOF and you have plenty of light at your disposal.

[Jonathan Stevenson]

Release the hounds...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/jonny168/MrBurnsofJapan.gif

[Steven Caesare]

Nick your expecting WAY TO MUCH from a still NEW COMPANY. You should try to put yourself in there shoes. How old is RED? How long have they been in the market? A company this young just can not produce a new camera every year like canon, sony or panasonic and flood the market. They just don't have the capital, resources, and manufacture capabilities like other camera companies that been around for almost forever do. With the amount of money and research there putting into the epic/scarlet designs, it could make or brake their company. If they did release the scarlet as promised with out finishing the R&D work. What would happen if the camera had some serious fault when in the hands of the consumers? A wrong move like that can kill a new business. Especially a business that is invested in electronics such as this. Also your not really thinking the Scarlet/Epic camera designs through, who else designed cameras like this for the price? You have the ability to start out with the most basic 3k scarlet package and eventually end up with the epic, and not having to buy a complete new package. You should be happy that a company like this is keeping its users (and competitors) up to date on their camera development. I think there doing fine, there doing what they said they would do, as soon as every whos upgrading their sensors are done they should be testing the tattoos to the flew people they know who's gonna test the hell out of it to make sure there's big uniform seen no problems with the design, cause there's no really going back once there in production.

I know your post is in defense of Red, and I certainly agree with your setiment.

But... I'd argue that suggesting that Red is too small in terms of captial , R&D, manufacturing, etc.. and hence size is the the reason for any schedule slippage does a dis-service to Red.

Quite frankly, I'd venture that Red is investing MORE in R&D, design team, manufacturing relationships, and prodecut feature set for these products than Sony, Canon, or Arri. Perhaps many times more.*

Any delay, I suspect, is due to the sheer scope of the advancements Red is incporporating in to these platforms. If you look at the individual feature indicators, Red is giving them to us FASTER, than the competition. From concept to 4K faster than companies around for years. Lenses that leap frog a number of vendors pratically out of nowhere. 5K on the horizon a few short years after 4K, which other vendors still haven't done. Modularity. Dynamic range increases. Compression advancement. Distribution codecs. An ASIC more advanced than any on the planet. Framerates. The list goes on...

Quoite frankly I suspect that it's the small, focused, driven nature of this team that has turned the pace of innovation in hte industry on it's ear. I don't know much about the foplks inside of Red other than those that post here, or how many of them there are, but I am AMAZED at the breadth and pace of their development and production effort.

-sc

*The ideas in "the Mythical Man" month are probably an interesting application here...

[Martin Weiss]

I don't really know what to say, especially since Mitch summed it up so eloquently.

From my understanding you are basically blaming RED for being open? Why not just stop reading REDuser for the next months, and then whenever Scarlet is ready and will be released you can read the press release and pretend that RED is just like any other company.

[Lee Saxon]

Yes, it does annoy me that they advertise the fixed 2/3" as "ready to shoot out of the box" AND "120fps" when in all likelyhood you'll have to choose one or the other (even at reduced data rates I doubt CF can do 100fps).

Also while the brain prices seem great, shockingly low in fact, many accessory prices seem excessive. I wonder if they adopted the video game console approach and are selling the brains at or near cost and making it up with generous margins on modules?

But Red is still crazy awesome. It is absurd to consider any other camera, including everything from Canon 7D to $200,000 rip-off machines. If you don't understand why, here's what you do :

Go buy a DSLR. Shoot the same scene in both RAW and JPEG High Compression. Try to edit both photos in Lightroom. Compare your results. Place your Scarlet order on the spot.


Why not just stop reading REDuser for the next months, and then whenever Scarlet is ready and will be released you can read the press release and pretend that RED is just like any other company.

Martin I may have to do that; the amount of time I spend checking for new Recon threads is starting to impact my life. :)

[Deanan]

Yes, it does annoy me that they advertise the fixed 2/3" as "ready to shoot out of the box" AND "120fps" when in all likelyhood you'll have to choose one or the other (even at reduced data rates I doubt CF can do 100fps).

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

[Eren Ozkural]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

Music to my ears :)

[Nick D]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.
If I understand you correctly Deanan, this means the CF module is sufficient to record at 120fps? Hence, no need for a SSD with the Scarlet?

[David Rasberry]

If I understand you correctly Deanan, this means the CF module is sufficient to record at 120fps? Hence, no need for a SSD with the Scarlet?

Burst mode is a very short time frame. Measured in seconds.

[Joe G.]

"It's freedom, baby!" -Austin Powers

You can buy, or not buy. Whatever.

[Jim Retar]

But this is how I perceive it - as an educational service to their existing customer base.

Well, how I perceive it is a bit more simple.... "this is why you shouldn't buy a 7D and should wait X months/years for our camera".

Call me a cynic.... that is just the way I call it.

They took down the "other cameras" section "because this is a RED forum" and then start talking about other cameras! Where are the EX3 plates? How about Nikon D3s? How about a Sumix test or Sony cine alta? Why have they only targeted the one camera everyone seems to be going wild for?

If 10% of REDusers feel the same way as me and see this as an attampt to disuade someone form buying a 7D, I think that is bad for business and they should just leave the tests to another forum like DVXuser (a forum where alot of people are discussing the reasoning of the recent 7D plate test... not many comments about how they are "providing an educational service")

[Sterling Wescott]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

This is great to hear. SSD are a little on the expensive side.

[Meryem Ersoz]

[QUOTE=Jim Retar;554383

Call me a cynic.... that is just the way I call it.

They took down the "other cameras" section "because this is a RED forum" and then start talking about other cameras! Where are the EX3 plates? How about Nikon D3s? How about a Sumix test or Sony cine alta? Why have they only targeted the one camera everyone seems to be going wild for?

If 10% of REDusers feel the same way as me and see this as an attampt to disuade someone form buying a 7D, I think that is bad for business and they should just leave the tests to another forum like DVXuser (a forum where alot of people are discussing the reasoning of the recent 7D plate test... not many comments about how they are "providing an educational service")[/QUOTE]




ok, you're a cynic - they showed F35 zone plates at RED Day, I really have no idea whether those same plates were posted here. They also openly congratulated Sony for producing a killer new projection technology...

I don't spend much time at DVX, so I'm happy to have this information here, as I said, since I actually have an investment in these cameras.

RED is giving me useful information, not only for feeling secure in my investments, but also the information that they are providing helps us to differentiate our camera performance from the 7D - these questions do arise, and I really don't have time to run around testing cameras that I don't own or can't afford, like an F35 because I have actual commercial clients to serve.

And I can tell from my own experience what a 7D can and can't do - no RAW, only super slow moves...but groovy, I can use my Canon lenses for video, sweet!

But not everyone wants to buy a 7D and spend their time making these comparisons.

So yes, this type of information is useful to their user base in a very real-world way. Every once in a while, I will participate in a test when I have time, which is not often - since you are an active DVXuser, you may have even seen some of my work, which was posted by Jim Arthurs comparing RED (Build 12, I believe) with an EX-1 for the purposes of keying footage at 1080p.

I can tell you, that the results of this test were manipulated, propagandized, and distorted in oh-so-many ways, even long after the efficacy of the test had expired.

These were very specific tests, with a very specific purpose, clearly stated by Jim, and they were used to make all kinds of bogus conclusions that had really no basis in fact. In fact, I would still read people using that test post-Build 16 and post-Build 20, when they really were completely valueless, since it was an entirely different camera from that point on. But people would still use that test to draw their own ill-informed and biased conclusions, long after the efficacy had expired.

So, based upon my own real world experience and participation in testing, I can say first-hand and resolutely - posting to DVXuser really does absolutely zero in terms of insuring the impartiality of conclusions based on test results.

You don't seem to grasp the real-world value that these RED's tests have to actual RED users because you're occupying a space in which conspiracy theory trumps reality.

As I said, your mileage may vary. But I'm calling it as I see it. I found value in seeing a 7D (which I own and can afford) zone plate, a RED zone plate, and an F35 zone plate compared. That was interesting. I have a lot of respect for what all of these cameras can do, and once SCARLET is out, someone will be the happy owner of a used 7D in really good condition, but until then, I'll keep shooting with it, knowing its limits.

So yes, I found that educational even if you prefer to cry "conspiracy". Tomato, tomahto. As long as I, as a RED owner, have that perspective, then yes, education as a motive is at least as equally valid as conspiracy theory.

[David Rasberry]

Someone posted a link to the BBC camera test website a while back. I read their test reports on quite a few different cams, including the R1. They also posted zone plates.
They did not even bother to complete testing of the Canon 5d2 after the zone plate shots, which were posted. Rejected it out of hand as not acceptable for HD broadcast production due to poor resolution and artifacts.

[Jim Retar]

You miss my point though.... even if their intentions are pure... it can look like the opposite.

Why risk bad PR?

As I stated way back in this thread... i'm on the fence... I like Red, I like Canon.... I have nothing against RED and have used the Red One several times with great success. I am, however, well trained in internet marketing and what RED are doing could look bad to quite a few people. People who control $100,000+ budgets for gear (and trust me, they can be put off a company with one bad/misinterpreted sentence).

[Jannard]

You miss my point though.... even if their intentions are pure... it can look like the opposite.

Why risk bad PR?

As I stated way back in this thread... i'm on the fence... I like Red, I like Canon.... I have nothing against RED and have used the Red One several times with great success. I am, however, well trained in internet marketing and what RED are doing could look bad to quite a few people. People who control $100,000+ budgets for gear (and trust me, they can be put off a company with one bad/misinterpreted sentence).

Maybe you should consider our posting the 7D Zone Plates as the reason why we took down "Other Cameras".

Jim

[Lee Saxon]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

Y'all haven't announced exactly how long the bursts are going to be, right?

I'm guessing burst modes are done in the buffer, and then written back to the media at a much lower speed, like on my DSLR?

That's certainly cool but it doesn't really invalidate my [minor!] complaint. I was planning on getting an SSD anyway, though. Also I'm gonna repost this just so you don't think I'm a hater :

"But Red is still crazy awesome. It is absurd to consider any other camera, including everything from Canon 7D to $200,000 rip-off machines. If you don't understand why, here's what you do :

Go buy a DSLR. Shoot the same scene in both RAW and JPEG High Compression. Try to edit both photos in Lightroom. Compare your results. Place your Scarlet order on the spot."

[Martin Stevens]

I think that this "Nick D" should perhaps try Lithium....and I'm
not talking about batteries.:blink:

[Jason Ramsey]

I think that this "Nick D" should perhaps try Lithium....and I'm
not talking about batteries.

let's try to stay away from the personal stuff...

Thanks

[Martin Stevens]

let's try to stay away from the personal stuff...

Thanks

Actually....I was trying for a bit of levity. Hence I used the word
"perhaps" so as to not be too apparently rude.:wink5:

[Jeff Coatney]

One of the most informative presentations at Red Day was the zone plate comparison. I think it illustrated the inherent misconception that people have about resolution. Many pros seem to believe that because you can finish to film at 2K, and the current broadcast standard is 1080, that its okay to author at those resolutions. Using the zone plate comparison, Jim proved that even when you think you're authoring at those resolutions, you really aren't. He showed, using unimpeachable, empirical evidence, that the much lauded professional tools actually come up short in the resolution department. It also underscored just how difficult a task Red has set for itself, in getting true professional tools into the hands of many.

Jim never said Canon made bad cameras. He only mentioned that he doesn't like sensor line skipping as a methodology to achieve video. He praised Sony for developing a superior 4K projector.

But in a way, Jim has to show his current and future customers why he believes that resolution matters. There are Post Houses that are openly advertising that the Canon 5D is a viable authoring tool for a filmmaker's project. Some of them are really pushing the prosumer DSLR as a top level professional tool in motion picture production. I am unconvinced of this, I cannot see how anyone would risk their professional reputation on an mastering platform that delivers underwhelming results at best when viewed against more established professional tools. I think you would intercut Canon 5D or 7D footage with higher resolution cameras such as the Sony F35 at your own risk.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very impressed that a few Post Houses, (which have high overheads, even the ones using less than "Heavy Iron" workstations), are able to build successful business models by reaching out to the low end indy filmmakers using the Canon DSLR's. I would have thought that someone spending $2,000 to $4,000 on their camera, probably wouldn't have the budget to do a high-end finish of their DSLR footage at a price per project that far exceeds the cost of the camera. I don't see why filmmakers shooting DSLR's wouldn't use the very capable tools available to them off the shelf to finish their Canon footage, but then I don't have a Post House that needs clients.

[Meryem Ersoz]

You miss my point though.... even if their intentions are pure... it can look like the opposite.

Why risk bad PR?



People misconstrue stuff every day on these boards. It is the price that RED pays for extracting instant feedback from their user base and having productive daily interactions with their users, which is the basis for making such a great product, so fast. So they risk "bad PR," as you put it, because they know that putting it on the line publicly, every day also brings these enormous, offsetting benefits.

But they just stick to their knitting, work their asses off, stay committed, and perform little miracles daily. If they do that, they know that they'll sell boatloads of cameras and, eventually, delivery systems. The PR will take care of itself.

The rest is just someone else's story...forum noise.

[Jim Retar]

Maybe you should consider our posting the 7D Zone Plates as the reason why we took down "Other Cameras".

Jim

Like I said before, i'm not here to cause trouble, just offering advice. I really think posting those plates in the recon area was a PR mistake. I'm sure you know that alot of 7D owners will trade in to RED as soon as there is a release date... Regardless of educational motives, it takes a small leap of the imagination for many 7D users to think... "hang on, this seems like a bit of an attack on my camera... I already know all these technical short comings, why are RED rehashing them?"

Maybe consider having a "test area"? Include a full range of cameras and you will get credibility. It could even drive more traffic and turn into a good resource.

[Nick D]

Hello Red Moderator,

I wrote my original Scarlet post while DRUNK...

It might help to add a forum "I'm Drunk"...

With a topic like that, we can ask deep philosophical questions like:

Is Item #21 an AC Cord or bottle opener, you know... I'm just saying, cause it has everything else...

BTW, Will the Scarlet come with a Warning: Do Not operate while Inebriated, or images may appear slightly out of focus?

Cheers!

[MichaelHalsell]

:closed2ur0: