Sharpness concerns

[Floris Liesker]

It looks to me as if both team #19 and team #22 had the same issue with their early footage, it contained a lot of 'sharpening'.
Team #19: http://www.appliedvisual.com/tonaci/hero.tiff
Team #22: http://www.fxguide.com/modules/NewsUpload/files/07Sep/RedShootOne/INT_Window_Cooke14mm_tk1Still.jpg

Could it be that Red Alert! has a sharpening default setting of 100%? In the user interface I couldn't really see a sharpening slider, maybe the teams didn't see it either and thought it would be at default 0?

Trying to be Sherlock Holmes here... Graeme, can you help me out?

[Brook Willard]

Sharpening is in a menu... we didn't look at first. I expect that they did the same.

Don't fret. The reason the sharpening looks like ass is because there is sharpening in the first place. When it's turned off, the problems go away [at least on our footage].

Graeme has stated that sharpening will be off by default in the next version of Red Alert!.

[Floris Liesker]

Great!
No sharpening would also be much more in line with what Red footage should look like, in my opinion: Organic.

[Graeme Nattress]

There's two things:

1) without some sharpening, images can look a tad soft and people complain about that.

2) with sharpening images can have sharpening artifacts that some people complain about.

3) I'm working on, but have not completed some "nicer" sharpening algorithms that should balance between the needs of 1) and 2) above better, but I've not got it working yet.

4) Next build of RedAlert! defaults to sharpen=off and offers 3 levels if you turn it on.

Graeme

[Floris Liesker]

Coincidentally, I recently tried the same. When I received some out-of-focus footage I made a composit in which I tried to create a 'nicer' sharpening, avoiding halo's.
Would this be your approach as well?

This was the original image:
http://www.piranhafilm.nl/Smartsharp/Original%20(blur).jpg

With normal sharpening it looked like this:
http://www.piranhafilm.nl/Smartsharp/sharpened.jpg

I wanted to rule out the digital halo's around the white beerglasses but I wanted to keep the detail in the bricks, and made a combination of filters to do so.
In the end it looked like this:
http://www.piranhafilm.nl/Smartsharp/smart%20sharpened.jpg

[Graeme Nattress]

I'm looking at a non-haloing or at least, non ringing halo based approach....

Graeme

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Would it be possible to apply sharpening only on low contrast regions?

For instance on the FXGuide footage, which has had the life sharpened out of it most of the "problem" areas are in extremely high contrast areas--areas that don't really need sharpening as it is. On the other hand a little sharpening in something like... dirt would be almost completely unnoticeable but would significantly boost the effect.

One thing you have to be careful with sharpening is that you apply it *last*. That's a large part of the reason why the sharpening was as painful as it was in some of those shots. I'm betting what happened was they applied sharpening to a pretty flat image and then when grading the image in photoshop the sharpening got its contrast enhanced even further.

[Poi Boy]

right Gavin, always sharpen last and in accordance to specific target ouput. With stills I really like sharpening only specific areas of an image; I'm going to try that same technique with my red footage. Can't wait !
Aloha
-A

[Emanuel A.]

Good tips, actually.

I share the same concerns.

Can I sincerely add a honest but only my humble opinion?

The milkgirls footage is a lot more pleasant footage than this latter one. As matter of fact, I've been thinking to add a Silicon Imaging camera to my investment since last friday. I feel it more cinematic.

I'd like to have options in-camera on any of both directions. Mixing up if necessary. Wouldn't 4K have resolution enough to handle any damages to the effective sharpness of our Mysterium sensor?

[Graeme Nattress]

Currently, in camera is no sharpening. In RAW, it's your choice, and I'm working on improved options too. Once that's done, that'll be enough to keep everyone happy.

Graeme

[Emanuel A.]

I hope so, Graeme and thanks. We have a lot of respect about what you're doing. That milkgirls footage was the best motion picture from digital acquisition that I could ever face. Truly cinematic. My best word to the feeling left.

[Graeme Nattress]

Quite frankly, the image processing has improved immensely since Milk Girls. We have DRX, we have a much more superb demosaic, and better colourimetry.

We even have variable detail extraction from the bayer, so you can tweak to the "pixel feel" you like :-)

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

Adding the sharpness control, I'm not selling out.

I'm adding user choices, even though I'd not make that choice myself.

I'm also showing, quite frankly, how well the footage takes sharpening. Sharpen normal "video" and it breaks up so quickly it's not funny.

Graeme

[Emanuel A.]

Of course, you have knowledge that I don't have. To me, it's only what my eyes are bringing to my POV built on my film and aesthetics background as well my needs, granted the type of work I do. Essentially narrative, most part.

[Emanuel A.]

The milkgirls stuff is still my active desktop wallpaper and it shall be till a fair successor. I hope from my hands or eyes. But I'd sincerely prefer to find it on these days during the upcoming footage from anyone of these posters.

On the other hand, I've been investing on old cine glass plus the Birger mount and the Canon's just in order to try to achieve different looks since the fifties look (I hope, though the use of some filters also may help) up to the digital age CineAlta-like.

BTW, my reference on the Silicon Imaging is only 'cause IMHO the most part of the pictures seen from there are truly cinematic -- if I can get an accurate or strict meaning for what I want to illustrate. Steven Dempsey (aka disjecta @dvxuser) would say: organic. LOL :) But he'd be right.

[Andrew C]

Speaking of "Milk Girls"... I thought that footage was color-corrected in Pablo.
I know "Crossing the Line" was...

[Stephen Gentle]

Speaking of "Milk Girls"... I thought that footage was color-corrected in Pablo.
I know "Crossing the Line" was...

'Crossing the Line' was corrected on a Pablo system at Park Road Post. 'Milk Girls' might have been done on Red's scratch system if it was graded.

[Floris Liesker]

Would it be possible to apply sharpening only on low contrast regions?

That's exactly what I did!

[Andrew M.]

Sharpness in Premiere Pro has velocity setting.

From the Premiere Help I can only see the animation of the grading affect but I think this is what velocity setting is for, animation. No reference to the velocity itself in the Help.

Is it what velocity in sharpness is for, to animate sharpness effect so it dynamically applies to the material?
As to the static effect, here is the difference between zero sharpness and 100% in Premiere. Look at very bottom as well.
If I only didn’t have to go out to PS for CA correction, all would be perfect.