Two REDs at Digital Cinema Society

[Laco Zamba]

http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/TechTips.php?item=RED+Tests

[Poi Boy]

cool
-A

[Jaime Vallés]

Very cool. They mention that the HDMI output to an externall LCD monitor (Dell I think) shows everything you'd see in the viewfinder. Here's the quote:

The monitor output as shown here displays the same information you would see in the viewfinder including Recording Format, Frame Rate, Shutter Speed, ASA Setting, Time Code, Framing Markers, as well as Camera Temperature, Media, and Battery Status

Is this the case? If so, It's very good news. Because I thought that you only got those things using the EVF or RED LCD. Can someone with a RED camera confirm this?

[Joel Kaye]

Is this the case? If so, It's very good news. Because I thought that you only got those things using the EVF or RED LCD. Can someone with a RED camera confirm this?

Yeah - I noticed that too. Very interesting. Any HDMI monitor or other HDMI device is potentially a viewfinder. Nice.

[Brook Willard]

Yeah, HDMI can show all of the overlays.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Interesting to see Scott Billups with the RED.
That guy has used almost every high end camera.
I hope he shoots some green screen stuff.

[Chris Swartz]

If that's a Dell 24 inch display, then they must be converting the HDMI output to DVI to go into the display. I'd like to know if that's the case, I had trouble converting HDMI out of an Intensity card to use the Dell 24 inch as preview, I had to use component. I guess you could convert it to component as well. Also I think the HDMI output is limited to 720 which is looks good enough for viewing. All this is really exciting. Thanks for the info.

Chris

[Brook Willard]

Apparently it's possible to convert the RED HDMI signal to DVI... I overheard that they tried that at RED.

[Chris Swartz]

Funny how that works. They make a cable for it, a hdmi to dvi cable that's about $20, but for some reason it's a crap shoot as to whether it will work or not depending on the gear you use it with. I think it's a colorspace issue, at least that's what Blackmagic told me it was. Good to know it works with a Red since I have 3 of these monitors, now I just need to get my hands on a Red One!!

Chris

[Jaime Vallés]

Yeah, HDMI can show all of the overlays.
Fantastic! Thanks, Brook. :gun:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yeah I run a DVI -> HDMI cable from my HomeTheaterPC to my TV. under $10. Especially if you grab one during a labor day sale at frys. :)

[Joe Carney]

I thought the newer Dell 24" monitors had hdmi and true 1080p in.

[Brook Willard]

At least I think it's all of them. I'm certainly no expert - I don't want to be caught talking out of my ass.

[Evin Grant]

I thought the newer Dell 24" monitors had hdmi and true 1080p in.

The HDMI out won't run more than 720P so it doesn't matter much.

[Steve Gibby]

When the HD-SDI outputs are enabled, then 1080p can be taken from dual link HD-SDI, and run through a Black Magic or AJA converter to get pixel for pixel 1080p to a Dell 24, LG 24, etc. I have an LG 24, Black Magic HDLink converter, and that is what I plan to do at my home office to review footage, when in-camera playback in enabled.

[Simon Blackledge]

HDMI out of the red is only 720 P ? :-/

[Brook Willard]

4:2:2 720p through HDMI.

[Mike Prevette]

Flameop, thats a HDMI thing not a RED thing. It's just what the HDMI standard supports now.

_mike

[Simon Blackledge]

really? so how do blueray players connect? are they only 720?

I cant switch my apple tv to 1080..

Well blow me!. thanks for that.. never knew.


S

[Adrian T.]

With a proper cable HDMI can do 1080P. Newer HDMI specs support even higher resolutions and color depths.

[Steve Gibby]

"Remember, you can get 1080p out “dual link” HD-SDI port.

The choice of 720p as the HD Preview resolution is based on -

a) Frame Rates
For 31 fps to 60fps when recording 720p, 1080, 2K or 4K what do you do?
For 61 - 120fps when recording 720p, 2K what do you do?
Using 720p as the output resolution gives us a much better representation of motion than using 1080p at a max of 30fps would.

b) Monitor sizes
Most battery powered field monitors are XGA resolution 1024 x 768. It'll be the rare exception when you'll have space for a 1080p projector or plasma.
But if you do have the space, using the dual link HD-SDI at 1080p, and perhaps an HD-SDI to DVI converter will resolve that issue.

Usual caveat - all specifications subject to change."

Stuart English
2/5/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=16



"You certainly can get a knockout 1080p image up on a monitor or projector.

The phrase “Dual-link HD-SDI” can mean one or both of two things - RED can support both.

a) Use of two links to provide 4:4:4 RGB monitoring at 1080p or -
b) Two duplicate outputs of 4:2:2 YUV (Y,Cr,Cb) at 720p or 1080i or 1080p.

To see 1080p you don't need a dual link capable monitor, any HD monitor with an HD-SDI input is fine. JVC makes a 1080P HD-SDI + DVI LCD for ~$4K (Note DVI not HDMI - are you sure you have an HDMI monitor that accepts 1080p/24 native and not 24p + 3:2 pulldown = 1080i/60 or maybe 1080p/60? - hence the Black Magic box specs perhaps?)

The HD preview output (HD-SDI and HDMI, its the same signal) provides a Surround View + active record area + select graphics + audio. Its designed to allow a quick check of framing and composition for the director and other on-set - think video assist for a film camera. We chose to include HDMI as an output in addition to HD-SDI as it lets you plug in a wide range of inexpensive computer monitors or 12” – 32” size consumer LCD and plasma TVs.

If anyone wants to research available portable / battery powered, HDMI based multiframe rate 1080p monitors that can accept 23.98, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97 and 30.00 1080p signals it would be a valuable addition to all of our knowledge bases.

What we have seen in HD-SDI and HDMI products have all been XGA or SXGA resolution, so its pointless to send them 1080p and also limit the frame rate we can display to 30fps - which is why we chose 720p instead."

Stuart English
2/6/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=19

[Adrian T.]

Thanks, Gibby! You're the invaluable encyclopedia Gibbyca! :biggrin:

[Jaime Vallés]

Cool. Another question: Do the HD-SDI outputs also show the overlays?

[Adrian T.]

Interesting to see Scott Billups with the RED.
That guy has used almost every high end camera.

But unfortunately he doesn't spend too much time updating his website http://www.pixelmonger.com/... :glare:

[Damien Molineaux]

...

"You certainly can get a knockout 1080p image up on a monitor or projector.

The phrase “Dual-link HD-SDI” can mean one or both of two things - RED can support both.

a) Use of two links to provide 4:4:4 RGB monitoring at 1080p or -
b) Two duplicate outputs of 4:2:2 YUV (Y,Cr,Cb) at 720p or 1080i or 1080p.

...
Stuart English
2/6/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=19

1080i ?!

Can you get 1080i out of the HD-SDI on the camera ? Is that correct, or is that an 1080p image recorded in a 1080i signal ?

Who knows ?

Thanks Gibby for regularly bringing out all this info. I'm sure those guys at Red fear you, they really have to watch what they say, in case you pull it out on them three years from now. ;-)

Cheers,
Damien

[Steve Gibby]

Cool. Another question: Do the HD-SDI outputs also show the overlays?



“We have “dual link” HD-SDI outputs - always clean feed and can only show the active recording area. These two HD-SDI outputs also include embedded audio and timecode.

Then we independently have a signal that is represented physically as both an HDMI and an HD-SDI (lets call it HD Preview to avoid confusion with the other HD-SDI outputs) signal. While in shot setup or recording it shows the record area + look around area, its understood that its desirable to also have some degree of user selection / control over programmable frame guide overlays, and these also have embedded digital audio plus timecode.

If you choose to hang a Miranda off of the HD Preview (HD-SDI) output you should get a decent NTSC/PAL feed with burnt in timecode.

Then we have EVF and LCD display, both of which can “show everything” i.e the EVF and LCD feeds both have fully programmable frame guidelines.”

Stuart English
2/3/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=15





“The HD preview output (HD-SDI and HDMI, its the same signal) provides a Surround View + active record area + select graphics + audio. Its designed to allow a quick check of framing and composition for the director and other on-set - think video assist for a film camera.”

Stuart English
2/6/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=19

[Michael Schrengohst]

But unfortunately he doesn't spend too much time updating his website http://www.pixelmonger.com/... :glare:

Maybe he will update this page after turning "RED".

http://www.pixelmonger.com/productionoffice.html

[chuck colburn]

Gibby!

Aren't you suppose to be working or something?

Chuck

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Gibby for regularly bringing out all this info. I'm sure those guys at Red fear you, they really have to watch what they say, in case you pull it out on them three years from now. ;-)

Cheers,
Damien

LOL...actually I think they like me, because my personal archive of what they've said has helped to keep them from having to repeat themselves over and over again. That has freed them up to concentrate on developing the camera system. Thay have a small staff and there's only so many hours in a day. I've kept my archive to answer questions I may have, as a reference library, but I knew it would help RED User members and RED if I simply did a copy/paste from it when I saw the opportunity.

I'm happy to help the RED User community whenever I get the chance. Many here have helped me over the years so it's my way of giving back...

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby!

Aren't you suppose to be working or something?

Chuck

I definitely am...and I'm about to get back to it! A few times a day I have to feed my RED addiction just like the rest of you. Meanwhile back at the project...C-ya!

[jbeale]

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere on the forum, anyway the Digital Cinema Society (DCS) test has a few movies from RED testing up here:

http://www.digitalcinemasociety.com/content.php?page=NAB%2007

These are low-res files, but the image quality is pretty nice. The second file is a nice example of steadicam work. In the first file towards the end, I thought the sunlit area was blown out but actually it's just the red channel that is clipped, so detail could still be recovered in that area.

http://www.bealecorner.com/D30/misc/RED-DCS-test-1.png

[ChrisLyon]

It's the compression for the web. The detail is there in the RAW files as they state on the website.

[Steven Parker]

The second file is a nice example of steadicam work.

No steadicam that day - that was Mathers swinging an 8' jib around - and operating at the same time!


EDIT: OOPS! He posted from the other day of testing as well - my bad.

[Jim Hoffman]

I was just at Chicago's Digital Cinema Society's sponsors "get to know Red" event. Jim from DCS brought his camera (#30) and was kind enough to share some footage. Great to see a working camera up close.

WOW!!!

I am just so excited. To see this in person and have an open discussion with others in the industry about Red was thrilling. It seems everyone had a reserved excitement about it all, acknowledging how awesome the footage is but still hanging on to the "wait and see" until the camera matures.

did I say WOOOOOOOWWWW!!!!

Thanks to Jim at DCS, Fletcher, Resolution Digital Studios and everyone else who contributed.

[Luke Boyce]

I was there as well. What was so fantastic about it was that we got to see that DCS footage professionally color graded by some guys at Optimus Chicago. It looked absolutely incredible. Not to mention we got to see it projected at 2K which also looked incredible.

My only issue with the event was that

1) Actual RED people were not there and so I feel that there was some misinformation given about specs and stuff like that.

2) It seems most of the talking was done by the color guy and discussed workflow issues with DPX files and the such and was very technical and a bit confusing and I think he made the camera seem like more work than it's worth. I got the feeling talking to a few people afterwords that from their impression from the colorist, this camera was not an improvement in workflow ease. Not to mention, alot of the discussion became more about color workflows and technicality than it did about the actual camera itself.

But that footage was absolutely beautiful. Not to mention, I actually got to see #30 up close and personal. We haven't been getting alot of RED love out here in middle America, so it was a very welcomed event.

[Zul, Y]

The RED Bottom, (don't even go there) note the label: DESIGNED, ENGINEERED, and TESTED in ORANGE COUNTY, CA USA and also: Made in Singapore

Red cameras are made in Singapore?

[Paul Hazlett]

Singapore, New Jersey.....

[Zul, Y]

or is it Singapore, Singapore? lol