I Have Some Serious Issues

[Matthew Lochman]

with Arri, sony, panasonic, etc., etc.
;-)
and because they have been jerking everybody around since day one, they deserve the gut punch they're gonna get. Finally some honesty. Let's see this trend clean up the whole industry...
Thank you everyone- I love you all.

[Andrew Benz]

You suckered me in... I agree, no more crippleware... we now have e-mail santa droppin' presents in our e-mail to upgrade our cameras on a constant basis... this is the worst the camera will be... Nice...

[kunal2]

they can pack up now :-}

[vidalsosa]

For the first time in the history of photography, the second hand value of a camera will be more than its original cost. With Red's proposd santa-in-the-mail firmware upgrade policy, all rules will be/have been broken

[Unwounded]

I wonder if any the major camera manufaturers will quickly adopt some of red business trademarks, like the honesty with the community and fostering user input ect...... or are they gonna ignore the elephant in the living room and expect business to go on as usual.

[Matthew Lochman]

I would think at first they will try and deny their problems, and than they will use their enormous stockpiles of cash to either
A. try and acquire Red (Jim, I don't know if you've said anything regarding this but it would be awesome if you NEVER LET THIS HAPPEN!!!)
B. try to compete (would make for a healthy industry)
C. Join forces and try to push Red out of the market from every front (bs lawsuits, veiled threats, etc.)
D. Pack up and open a really big Casino

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Come on guys just cause Red has clean Kool aid doesn't mean we have to go and spike it.
Sony, Panavision their slowly getting the picture.
With the f23 Sony attempted to design a camera that appealed to Cinematographers and they actually listened to some feed back on that thing.
The Genisis is an example of Panavision trying to cater to them as well.
The XD CAM EX is Sony saying P2 is a rip off.

They aren't gonna come around that fast though I mean lets face it these companies are run by Dinosaurs.

[Unwounded]

Yeah, well the big RED comet has hit....... and we all know what happened to the dinosaurs.......

[Brook Willard]

The companies also have larger, more lucrative market segments to worry about.

[Andrew Benz]

I vote #2, considering the reactions and responses that I have seen from industry reps... I still hear reps poo pooing the RED in favor of the HPX-500--now except for a couple of small reasons -- I think they are swimming in corp bs...

The big companies will not truely pay attention til RED produces the PPC AND a 2K shoulder mount eng/efp solution for the non techie average shooter and appropriate workflows for them... The cosumer/prosumer and eng/efp markets w/ workflows are their cash cows... The high end cinema not so much...

Jannard filled the void... Now the big question is... does he take the board. Red could do it... but in the end would the latter company still be light and responsive like the RED of today.

Just my navel lint opinion...

[Chris Pickle]

Sony invented this segment (digital indie filmmakers) with the VX1000 and the PD 150. Remember The Buena Vista Social Club!

The Canon GL-1 is legendendary with it's foray into "Frame Mode" and killer optics. I still love that camera for the warm image you get with very little effort.

Panasonic's introduction of 24p in the DVX allowed us to shoot zero budget music vids that atually look like film. Then they introduced solid state HD for 5k.

I see Red as the evolution, albiet a large leap forward.

Just my thoughts.

Chris

[Michael Brennan]

For the first time in the history of photography, the second hand value of a camera will be more than its original cost. With Red's proposd santa-in-the-mail firmware upgrade policy, all rules will be/have been broken


Are you are assuming the second hand value of the camera will go up as it gets upgraded? Thats a big assumption.


Thinking this through, if prices of new REDs stay fixed a used RED will be worth more than a new one with the same features??


Mike Brennan

[vidalsosa]

Are you are assuming the second hand value of the camera will go up as it gets upgraded? Thats a big assumption.


Thinking this through, if prices of new REDs stay fixed a used RED will be worth more than a new one with the same features??


Mike Brennan

I think so. Just imagine the RedOne in another three years with the proposed firmware updates, it will be badder than the specs we have right now and like old wine, will likely be pricier and of course, better. I think so.

[Karl H]

What Red has done is a great achievement, but Sony and Panasonic make far more money from all their other sectors than from high end digital cinema. I'm guessing, but it must not even amount to 2% of their business.

Do they even care? Im sure some individuals in Sony do, but the company as a whole probably doesnt give...They will care, but only when Red makes a Playstation rival and higher spec HDTV's... :-)

Pocket Red in many ways would likely have a greater impact on these companies than the Red One.

[Joe Carney]

Sony and Panasonic are publicly held companies, so they have to be somewhat carefull what they say in public. Red is private and JJ can say and do what ever he wants.

Also it's not Red versus all of Sony, it's Red versus Sonys' high end video camera division. At the lower consumer end, no issues believe it or not.
I like Sony front projectors and RPTVs. Excellent quality and price.
Their laptops are overpriced for what you get though.

[Michael Schrengohst]

If anything the RED could kick up sales of Blu-Ray recorders,
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players and even more
PS3 and XBOX sales.

[Joe Carney]

If what's coming out from Canon and even Sony is indicitive, quality 1080p cameras will become just another low cost commodity, similar to what SD DV is now. Not a bad thing, hehehe.

[Zack Birlew]

The way I see it, the only shakeup will be with the medium and higher-end markets. If you can get a flexible camera like the RED for a few thousand more than an HPX500, why would you even bother with the HPX500 in the first place? The same goes for the higher-end market, if you can't even get true 1920x1080 1080P and variable frame rates for $100,000+ then why would you bother when you can get quadruple the resolution, image quality, variable framerates, and a cheaper and ultimately easier workflow on top of that for almost less than 1/4 of the price?

In regards to that, I can see those markets stepping up their games. Yet, the lower-end market isn't really affected. Unless the Pocket RED really is a 2K or even true 1920x1080 1080P camera for less than $10,000, there's nothing to fill that void other than more trickle-down cameras. The Sony XDCAM EX will probably be king for a bit if it really is all that and a bag of chips, then it's just a waiting game.

[R. Gonzales]

I vote #2, considering the reactions and responses that I have seen from industry reps... I still hear reps poo pooing the RED in favor of the HPX-500--now except for a couple of small reasons -- I think they are swimming in corp bs...

The big companies will not truely pay attention til RED produces the PPC AND a 2K shoulder mount eng/efp solution for the non techie average shooter and appropriate workflows for them... The cosumer/prosumer and eng/efp markets w/ workflows are their cash cows... The high end cinema not so much...

Jannard filled the void... Now the big question is... does he take the board. Red could do it... but in the end would the latter company still be light and responsive like the RED of today.

Just my navel lint opinion...

I agree with Andrew Benz,

I think Sony, JVC and Panasonic will freak if 720 and 1080p are implemented in the RED ONE. That's where the majority of the broadcast field acquisition is. And until that happens the other manufacturers won't care too much, (IMHO)

Method

[Gavin Greenwalt]

For the first time in the history of photography, the second hand value of a camera will be more than its original cost. With Red's proposd santa-in-the-mail firmware upgrade policy, all rules will be/have been broken

Now that is far from true. History is full of cameras whose values were significantly higher second hand. Not to mention I'm sure the first batch of HVXs were reselling at a premium. Also let's not forget Lucas' special custom sonys.

[Patrick Tresch]

I think the biggest revolution is going to hit the post market : editing / color grading untill screening. But I fear that it is also going to kill 35mm and all the wokers in that industry. Red made us move 15 years forward (in Sony's speed).

Is it possible to encode from uncompressed/dpx/RGB... to Redcode? Imagine the future of digital cinema! It makes 4k doable in every digital theater! And in the near future at home on your Blueray.

Pat

[Matthew Lochman]

I guess the thing I am most upset about is that they ALL just assume (probably formed some alliance) they can hike up their prices and deliver the bare minimum. Planned Obsolescence. It is one of the products of capitalism that is eating away OUR planets resources. Sony, Panasonic, etc. have employees who's job is to make parts fail after a certain period of time. They also stagnate the market for profit. RED as it appears, is positioning itself to change all that, and make a bit of dough in the process. Bless you Jim. Don't change. Don't be tempted by the "devil"...

[David Dennis]

RED cameras will stay expensive, and possibly increase in value, for as long as there's a 6-month lead time for delivery of new units.

People who need them NOW are likely to pay a premium.

Once they are easily available, used values will go down, but they will probably be more expensive than new for at least six months, maybe a year depending on how quickly Jim and friends manage to assemble them.

If you're one of the first 25, you should probably sell yours today and you'll make the most money. Somehow i doubt anyone's going to take that advice ...

D

[Andrew Benz]

I agree with Andrew Benz,

I think Sony, JVC and Panasonic will freak if 720 and 1080p are implemented in the RED ONE. That's where the majority of the broadcast field acquisition is. And until that happens the other manufacturers won't care too much, (IMHO)

Method

Thanks Method...

I think Jim has exploited just one huge hole in one small segment ( Digital Cinema/ Pro HD)... the redone price structure most certainly reverberates down through to cameras like the hpx 500.

I do not think that Jim down sized his position and responsibilities at Oakley just too shoot NHRA on the weekends (... although we all know he is a badass shooter at heart... and this what he does anyway, he works to live)... we are talking a complete line of products that allow "fill in your name and job(s) here" to
*go from thought...
*to creative acquisition...
*post w/ partners...
*output to anything...
*2K/4K (made by RED) projection from home to the local movie theater...
*bring up a small calvacade of mavericks (View Factor Studios/Birger
Engineering, etc. to build the "connective tissue" products (FIZ, Motors,
Mounts, etc) to fil out the capabilities and workflows of the REDONE...

We are talking total horizontal integration over the next couple of years with most likely a move for vertical integration (that is sure to have already been taking place in the backgroud--ie- Accuscene?) for obvious reasons... but in the end... Will RED remain fluid? This is key... light, fast and responsive to it's fervent core. Screw the blow dryers and PS3 loss leaders...

Meanwhile, I am still waiting for a canon xl series that shoots up to 1080p on cf or hard drive recording system that leverages their awesome collection of still and HD cine/efp glass... wait... nevermind... I am getting a RED.

[Fence sitter]

For the first time in the history of photography, the second hand value of a camera will be more than its original cost. With Red's proposd santa-in-the-mail firmware upgrade policy, all rules will be/have been broken

I woudn't get too carried away...last time I saw the F900w/version 3 updated software its owner wasn't looking at selling for more than he bought it for? I'd count on health depreciation, we are looking at the laws of IT at play here after all. If you installed the latest OS from apple does it mean your 12 month old mac gets more expensive on the 2nd hand market? I've been a camera owner for years and I'd say the only way to make money selling is to buy well second hand and sell to someone in a boyant market for more than you paid and hedge your bets by working it hard in the mean time.

Fence

[peter roehsler]

Arri & especially Aaton (and Kodak and Fuji) will loose their market base eventually. Dalsa, Panavision/Sony, Thompson etc will `evolve´, t.i. change their designs, develop `smaller´ (as in cheaper) units and try to stay alive for a while. At a base price of 17.500 USD RED does not compete, RED just blows them away. If RED delivers (and I have no doubts about that) no producer in his right mind can justify the use of any other equipment.
The biggies are probably waiting for one major catastrophy like data loss on a shoot etc to put the blame on RED, but this will just become a footnote like lab breakdowns, emulsion problems, dirt, scratches and other film mistakes.
Their only concern at this time can only be WHEN their products will be obsolete, the IF has been answered now by RED.

[dino g]

don't forget, SONY is the only company (thus far...come-on jim, make us a projector too) that makes a "4K" projector, even though it is only 4096 x 2160, (ha i love being able to say only). so they win with the red either way, more red footage means more sales of 4k projectors...it's a win win for all.

[Joel Kaye]

There is the $2500 accessory credit initial owners get that might offset any depreciation over the first year or so. A used RED will be a hot item until backorders are filled.

[G.A. Kokes]

The companies also have larger, more lucrative market segments to worry about.

Not to mention shareholders who are only interested in the price of their stock.

I bet that some who bought RED also have stock in one of these companies. If not individually , then in some type of portfolio.

G