Dalsa guys: Red seems fishy

[najafi/didarfilm]

Hi Firends

i'm a director who is mad about digital , i just wanted to shoot my last promo with a 4k solution.
some days ago i called Dalsa (as the sole real tangible working 4k solution providers) and i just asked them about their ideas about RED.
they told me that it seems fishy , the RED guys have not shown a real working camera and no DP has worked with it and no one ever had shooted even a scene with it. they just have shown some scenes to the audiences from unknown sources.
I don't know guys , RED specifications is so much passionate but is it real?
just refer me to some evidences.
Kindest regards

M.H. Najafi

[Brook Willard]

I thought the Dalsa guys were all buddy-buddy with RED? Traitors! ;)

But yeah, I guess you're right, it's all a hoax. Joke's on everyone! Gotcha!

[I kid, I kid]

[Corrado Silveri]

It's a project in development.
The camera is not yet available, so you can't shoot anything "now" with a RED.

You, and almost any DP on the planet (except Mr. David Stump).

Therefore, if you want to test the camera, you simply have to wait.

You don't need evidence.

The RED team are teasing, not fishing...



(sorry for my poor english)

[Akcelik]

you must own a dalsa.

[najafi/didarfilm]

they have collected lots of 1000$ from the people around the world , may be more than millions. if it fails , what would happed , is it fair that lots of people around the world pay for someone's research costs.
i don't know , i hope they could stand till the end.

[Corrado Silveri]

It's impossible to "own" a Dalsa, it's available only for rent.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

dude, have you not seen the test grab from david stump on cinematography.net? have you not seen the constant updates from the red team telling us what is going on? have you not seen Jarred Land at the RED headquarters being apart of history? have you not made a reservation yourself and gotten e-mails? have you not done any research?

i guess not.

[Akcelik]

he does not need our petty cash to ruin his reputation.. ever heard of http://oakley.com/

[najafi/didarfilm]

Dear Justin , have you touched RED ?
of course , i had done lots of research , but i'm worried . and i think that what i told is reasonable

[Corrado Silveri]

Najafi,
I personally give to the RED team a lot of money.

And I'm happy. And I feel really good. And I'm proud of my two camera bodies and my three lenses reservation.

If I want, I can call the money back. I'm sure.

If you don't feel confortable, you can ignore my money, the RED itself, all this forum's user.

Where is the problem?

[Jannard]

sorry... I doubt what you say about Dalsa guys... What a dumb comment... "fishy". You must not have talked to Deanan at Dalsa.

If you are worried... doesn't really matter. Reservations are closed.

Jim

[Tonaci Tran]

i had done lots of research

Sure.

[Mardi_Gras]

they have collected lots of 1000$ from the people around the world , may be more than millions. if it fails , what would happed , is it fair that lots of people around the world pay for someone's research costs.
i don't know , i hope they could stand till the end.

You know, everybody that reserved products from Red did so at their own urging and not by any form of coersion. I know some well meaning folks who still decided to wait for the products to ship before buying, everyman to its own.

You don't have to start a thread just to disrespect the product developers/reservation holders in order to make a point.

Just wait until the product ships, then you can decide to buy or not. But until then, please contribute something meaningful here if you want, instead of thrashing everything and everybody even where they don't invite it. :mad:

[Graeme Nattress]

Whenever I've spoken to Dalsa representitives, they've always been very positive about RED. That said, I don't think there's anyone left working at the Dalsa digital cinema division as all the people I knew there have recently left.

Graeme

[CVB]

Najafi, if Sony had come out at NAB last year and said that they were developing a 4K camera and were taking reservations I doubt that you would a forum 8 months into its development and say that the whole thing is a hoax. What you need to realize is that designing a product, be it shoes, sunglasses, cars, planes, or cameras is a process... regardless of the type of product you go through the same process to make it to production. Do you know how many no-name companies have revolutionized the world and made history? Thousands. Take this one crazy guy that wanted to make a multi billion dollar corporation by starting off with selling motorcycle hand grips.. crazy idea.. it would never fly. Just because a piece of technology isn't developed by Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Panavision or Arri doesn't mean its not a revolutionary product and it certainly doesn't mean that its vaporware.

BTW... are you suggesting that the footage shown at IBC and LA wasn't from their camera? Give me som viable options for what I saw with my own eyes on the screen... was it timelapse canon D20 stills? Those actors must be awesome at expressing emotion in slow mo, I'm trying to figure out how they pulled off the bubble gum though...

[Jarred Land]

no DP has worked with it and no one ever had shooted even a scene with it.... they just have shown some scenes to the audiences from unknown sources.

David Stump has shot scenes with it...Ive shot scenes with it.. And a few other DP's have shot scenes with it. You have all viewed the scenes yourselves...


they just have shown some scenes to the audiences from unknown sources.

I will put my entire career on the table to personally gurantee that every single frame Red has shown has been from a Red camera with the Mysterium sensor. I was there. I dont know what other camera they think is shooting this stuff..

The quote seems a little odd to me but is understandable, its the same thing Sony would say about a Panasonic Camera or vise versa, or any other competitors camera, just remember, the one thing you gotta ask yourself about listening to those comments.. is why are they saying them.

[Jared VanLeuven]

I guess that Peter Jackson and James Cameron have been duped as well. Better get on the hotline to Wellington fast! :)

[Ace]

http://kyoproject.com/akbar1.jpg

[Steve Sherrick]

I suppose if you are in the "club", i.e you have a reservation, then you are there for a reason. You have full faith in the team that Jim has assembled. Graeme Nattress, whose got a great track record in developing software for NLE's, etc. I've done business with him over the years and he is a first class guy. Jarred Land runs what is in my opinion one of the best resources for independent filmmakers available on the web. These guys and all the others who have joined Red would not be putting themselves out on the line if they didn't believe in this. And Jim's track record is obvious.

I suspect we will see more posts like this in the future until the camera has hit the market. And maybe it's not a bad thing. Probably gets the Red team even more fired up than they already are, if that's possible because these guys are pretty fired up already. The one thing I know for sure, I'll be happy to be in that club when we get word the camera is finished and they are really happy with the results. Everyone else who doubted them, will just have to be patient to get their hands one one.

Steve

[Brook Willard]

David Stump has shot scenes with it...Ive shot scenes with it.. And a few other DP's have shot scenes with it. You have all viewed the scenes yourselves...

I suppose that at this point, nobody has shot anything with the RED [at least as the final product goes... as in the renders]. That's probably where the hiccups are coming from.

Most of us, of course, understand that the reason nobody has seen the camera is because the camera does not yet exist. We've seen parts of and output from prototypes. That's one of the reasons that [some] people get all huffy... if I can see an image, why can't I see a camera? The truth that we all [well, apparently not all] know is that the images we've seen are usually kept internal... forever.

The fact that we - as the public - are seeing images, seeing parts and getting so involved in the development process is absolutely amazing. Consider the alternative: we go to red.com every few months to see a slightly updated page with no personal involvement. The latter seems fishy to me [they wouldn't get my $1,000]... the former seems fantastic.

Cameras will come when they exist.

[Lucas Wilson]

the RED guys have not shown a real working camera

They have a working prototype. I have seen it several times, and have watched the RED team shoot imagery with it.


and no DP has worked with it and no one ever had shooted even a scene with it.

Not true. David Stump, ASC has worked with it and shot scenes with it.


they just have shown some scenes to the audiences from unknown sources.

Also untrue. Several months ago, I wrote an extensive post to dvxuser.net and the CML-2K list about the "behind the scenes" work that took place to get RED footage from the camera to the screen at IBC. I personally watched several shots go from the camera to a SCRATCH system, and can verify that it was a "known source" and "real" RED footage.


I don't know guys , RED specifications is so much passionate but is it real? just refer me to some evidences.

There is a tremendous amount of "evidence" out there. If you had done about 10 minutes of homework on the web then you would know this. Check the archives at dvxuser.net, cinematography.net in the 2K section for all the posts regarding real people shooting real footage with a real camera.

I also very seriously doubt that Dalsa would have said that. I know the guys that used to be at Dalsa in Los Angeles, and while they may argue about the tecnical merits of camera A vs. camera B, they would not doubt its existence. They're more professional and smarter than that. They can also read.

Regards,

Lucas Wilson
------------
Assimilate, Inc.
Los Angeles
lucas*at*assimilateinc*dot*com

[Brook Willard]

They have a working prototype. I have seen it several times, and have watched the RED team shoot imagery with it.


Oh man, how do you get so lucky!? :D

[Matthew Greene]

This whole thing reminds me of the early 90s when NewTek was working on the Video Toaster. There were no forums back then (unless you were one of the few doing the BBS thing) but if there were, this probably is how it would have played out.

Check out this link, It's NewTek's "Revolution" video released around 1990. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymVNhy4dw8 Before the Toaster, if you were doing cuts only editing on U-Matic VCRs you were rocking. Wanted to do a dissolve between two sources? The investment for a lame dissolve was in the tens of thousands. The Toaster was a $2000 card that did things that back then were mind blowing. The parallels are undeniable. Now if RED can just put together a promo video as cool as that (hey, it was absolutely amazing back then, the best promo ever :) ).

[Graeme Nattress]

Just like the moon landings, it would have cost Jim more to fake up a 4.9k image at 24fps than it would have cost to do it for real. You've got to laugh.

Graeme

[donatello b]

do you call panasonic and ask them what they think of the sony 900 ?
do you call sony and as them what they think about panasonic's HD camera's ?

i have found that asking floor persons at equipment shows you are getting more thier personal opinion and not the manufacturers opinion ...until RED ( or any new company with any product) has a camera that is renting/selling most do not consider it a real product - and yes you can have a working prototype (look at kinetta camera) and unless it is renting/selling it doesn't exist so why think about it !!!

i could see that a individuals/masses might find it "strange" that persons are talking as if RED was here ( now) and most that have put in a reservation have never seen a working RED camera ...
i have no doubt that i'll have a RED in my hands within a year ... i do have DP friends that will only talk about camera's they can buy/rent TODAY and any camera not available today doesn't exist to them ( period) ... until they see a RED that is working they consider it vaporware ..but just in case it does turn up they have all asked to test/use RED 103 ( personal camera) which they NEVER will use it ...but they can use RED 1051

[Graeme Nattress]

Great to see you here on the new forums Lucas. Listen to Lucas: as usual, he's totally correct and due to use using Scratch for our 4k work, he's seen the process all the way through, from beginning to display at 4k.

Graeme

[Matthew Greene]

Just like the moon landings, it would have cost Jim more to fake up a 4.9k image at 24fps than it would have cost to do it for real. You've got to laugh.

Graeme


You mean the footage was not shot with 3 synched EOS-1D MKIIs aligned and shooting through 2 half silvered mirrors?

[Jarred Land]

Just like the moon landings, it would have cost Jim more to fake up a 4.9k image at 24fps than it would have cost to do it for real. You've got to laugh.

Graeme

funny Graeme thats the first thing that came to mind to me as well the moon landings :)


And thanks Steve for the nice comments :)

[Omar Saad]

http://kyoproject.com/akbar1.jpg

lol....nice

[CVB]

hehe.. yeah, leave it to ace to summarize everything in one picture.

[Lucas Wilson]

Great to see you here on the new forums Lucas. Listen to Lucas: as usual, he's totally correct and due to us using Scratch for our 4k work, he's seen the process all the way through, from beginning to display at 4k.

Graeme

Cheers Graeme. :)

Lucas

[Omada]

I find it rather odd that working professionals get so heated when discussing a camera. It's as if they take it personally, which is probably due to the effective work of corporate brand managers. I perfer not to cast my lot with any brand. I'll shoot with Red and mount Cooke lenses....who cares? It's amusing that people can get so worked up over new products, as if they're something to be feared. Will the average DP lose revenue because of Red? Of course not. So why all the anger? Maybe some shooters pledge an oath to Sony, Panasonic or Dalsa. I'm a director so I wouldn't know. Seems rather juvenile in any case.

[CVB]

Omada, I think the anger comes from the rash/false statements that are made without any investigation on the part of the individual making the statements. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but at least state the facts is what I say.

[Robert Sanders]

Because we all know that the BILLIONAIRE owner of Oakley is desperate for the money and has crafted an elaborate hoax for over eight months so he can collect some deposit checks.

LOL!

Come on! Think!

[Corrado Silveri]

Sometimes, I'm truly ashamed of being European... Old Europe... Old sceptical Europe ....

I'm from Italy (don't know how many Red are reserved from here)...

And I know what you mean.

But I think we're on the right way, even in Europe.

[paintinmotion]

We are buying a couple more HVX200's now and will wait till reservations open up so we can buy some Red Cams and lenses - we want 3 cams for production. Hopefully the camera will not have any issues out of the box for reserved buyers and I hope we can quickly resolve how to integrate the units into our production schedule here at Ten Broadcasting once they become available. We have been looking for a better way to produce cinematic video without having to use Varicams which are just plain to big for our genre though we have used them and still are using one because we bought it. The RED cam may be a bit big too. which brings me to my question. Is there a plan to bring out a smaller RED camera that anyone here knows of? Also, does anyone know if these cameras will work with FCP5 and AJA gear? Last Qeustion .... What is RED's booth at the NAB this year?

[Jannard]

On a famous french speaking forum ("Le Repaire": www.repaire.net), I even got insulted ("gullible", "stupid", "naïve", "fool") for having made a reservation for a Red (which I 100% believe in).

Send me their names and I will add them to my "do not sell to list". :-)

Jim

[Ben Feuer]

There's one list I hope I'll never end up on...

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

There's one list I hope I'll never end up on...

"No soup for you and no RED either!"

[Petr Dvorak]

...Sometimes, I'm truly ashamed of being European... Old Europe... Old sceptical Europe, without any sort of positive energy: no enthousiasm, no drive, no optimism, no dreams! It's almost like if I was living among zombies; fortunately, there are a few humans left over here: most of the people I know "in real-life" in fact. And of course, all the european people I meet over here :)

Hey Arkham you are not alone, I am just New Europe optimist so excited that something is changing just now. Stop waste your time with zombies! Who needs them? Its my favorite hobby to shock zombies with a near future crazy scenarios :D

[Mardi_Gras]

... On a famous french speaking forum ("Le Repaire": www.repaire.net), I even got insulted ("gullible", "stupid", "naïve", "fool") for having made a reservation for a Red (which I 100% believe in)...

Do me a favor, once you get your RedOne (which will surely happen) invite all of them to a free photoshoot and PLEASE, do send me a copy of their group shot, with eggs on their faces, :o smiling cheekily like a bunch of mamolas that they are. (LOL)

[Jason Francois]

I would think that if RED were to fail there's going to be nobody that looses more than Jim, so I just don't know why people think it's some kind of scam.

That said, I'm proud to be drinking the RED koolaid and keeping my positive and hopeful attitude in tact.

We will have RED soon enough.

PS-Jim for your next big project could you create a safe, fast private jet that will compete with Lear, etc., but do it for about a $1million dollars? :)

[Rob Lohman]

Old sceptical Europe, without any sort of positive energy: no enthousiasm, no drive, no optimism, no dreams! It's almost like if I was living among zombies; fortunately, there are a few humans left over here: most of the people I know "in real-life" in fact. And of course, all the european people I meet over here :)

As other Europeans have already attested to; that is so true that it's scary.

That's the major thing I hate living in Europe / Holland. Everybody just zombie's on. And the less you are different than the crowd the better. Ugh.

It's so good to be part of something revolutionary and different!

[Rob Lohman]

PS-Jim for your next big project could you create a safe, fast private jet that will compete with Lear, etc., but do it for about a $1million dollars? :)

You mean like this: http://www.eclipseaviation.com/

Costs $1,520,000
Maximum range of around 1,125 nm / 2,084 km with 4 occupants

[Stephen Webb]

You mean like this: http://www.eclipseaviation.com/

Costs $1,520,000
Maximum range of around 1,125 nm / 2,084 km with 4 occupants

Apparently Cirrus have a personal Jet in the works too. Really must get my wings...

[Corrado Silveri]

It's so good to be part of something revolutionary and different!

Oh, yes...

[PieroD]

Elcurado, and other europeans

old Europe is, well, old. But better stop whining and act for a fast change.
Good to know that someone in Italy has reserved for the Red camera, since I am Italian too, and it could be in the future a tremendous addition to my research lab. So, it would be very intersting to have first hand information from early adopters.

Piero

[Corrado Silveri]

So, it would be very intersting to have first hand information from early adopters.

Piero

Ok, touchè. Stop complaining...

I'm here, Piero, and I don't know how many other RED's are reserved from Italy (maybe Emanuel?).

So, if you are interested, we can share information about the camera and the workflow here in Italy.

Buon anno, Corrado.

[PieroD]

Caro Corrado,

as a hobbyst, I myself, every now and then like to produce shorts. But, my main occupation is scientific research. Now, I know that with Red it is possible to get 720p@120 fps, and considering the quality of the image, this represents a very big achievement that lends promise in the Science Department. So, I'm very interested to know the workflow and the compatibility of the format with NLEs.

Buon anno anche a te

Piero

[Corrado Silveri]

Ok,

see you next year, when my Red's arrives here in Italy...

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

Send me their names and I will add them to my "do not sell to list". :-)

Thanks for your support Jim! I feel almost like if I was part of your family and you were my big brother :)

To Jim, Rob, Graham and all the rest of you guys: I wish you a great party tonight, for 2007 is gonna be a hellova GREAT year for all of us! Thank you so much to the Red team for their incredible work! Wish you all the very best for 2007!

[Floris Liesker]

That's the major thing I hate living in Europe / Holland. Everybody just zombie's on. And the less you are different than the crowd the better. Ugh.



Not all dutch folks are sticking their heads in the sand. On the pic we can see a very early adopter of one of the prototypes of the Red One, presumably prins Bernhard of Holland. This film and photo fanatic (and good friend of JJ) is trying Red's outdoor high-contrast behaviour while on one of his wild-life trips to Afrika in 1973. Rumor has it that he actually developed the Mysterium Sensor and almost took it into the grave with him...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/339_1167566729.jpg

[Robert Niessner]

Sometimes, I'm truly ashamed of being European... Old Europe... Old sceptical Europe, without any sort of positive energy: no enthousiasm, no drive, no optimism, no dreams! It's almost like if I was living among zombies; fortunately, there are a few humans left over here: most of the people I know "in real-life" in fact. And of course, all the european people I meet over here :)

I see no reason to be ashamed of being European. Just because of a bunch of living-in-the-past people you cannot assume all of us are like that.
I know a lot of people here in Austria are very excited about the RED camera, our local filmequipment dealer told me that he is going to contact RED soon to get into business with them.
Most people here I spoke to, want this new camera to become true because it promises better quality and more possibilities. There is no reason to freak out - in the end it is all about business. RED is no religion, it is a tool that raises your chances to get your work done better.

[Barend Onneweer]

Sometimes, I'm truly ashamed of being European... Old Europe... Old sceptical Europe, without any sort of positive energy: no enthousiasm, no drive, no optimism, no dreams! It's almost like if I was living among zombies; fortunately, there are a few humans left over here: most of the people I know "in real-life" in fact. And of course, all the european people I meet over here :)

To be honest, this post lacks all the "positive energy", "enthousiasm", "drive", "optimism" or "dreams" that you refer to.

And you realize that the term "Old Europe" was coined by Donald Rumsfeld when the EU weren't getting all excited about joining the war in Iraq... do you? I don't even want to go there.

The scepticism that Red One occasionally runs into is not tied to any geographical area. Nothing to do with continents.

Or I must live in a different universe.

Let's get back to discussing the camera.

[IAN SUN]

To be honest, this post lacks all the "positive energy", "enthousiasm", "drive", "optimism" or "dreams" that you refer to.

And you realize that the term "Old Europe" was coined by Donald Rumsfeld when the EU weren't getting all excited about joining the war in Iraq... do you? I don't even want to go there.

The scepticism that Red One occasionally runs into is not tied to any geographical area. Nothing to do with continents.

Or I must live in a different universe.

Let's get back to discussing the camera.

Here here.

[Brice Ansel]

I guess we'll see plenty of threads like these in the coming weeks, at least until the Red is finally shipping. On a famous french speaking forum ("Le Repaire": www.repaire.net), I even got insulted ("gullible", "stupid", "naïve", "fool") for having made a reservation for a Red (which I 100% believe in).
Arkham is right, I've got insulted too on the same forum by the same person we are in the same boat, and I'm shure sceptics will change their mind really quickly and soonish than they think.

[garageman]

To be honest, this post lacks all the "positive energy", "enthousiasm", "drive", "optimism" or "dreams" that you refer to.

And you realize that the term "Old Europe" was coined by Donald Rumsfeld when the EU weren't getting all excited about joining the war in Iraq... do you? I don't even want to go there.

The scepticism that Red One occasionally runs into is not tied to any geographical area. Nothing to do with continents.

Or I must live in a different universe.

Let's get back to discussing the camera.


I'm glad you said that Barend -about the Rumsfeld qoute- I was loathe to mention it but you're right. For Arkham to generalize about a whole continent of people and claim they're lazy is lazy and narrow minded in itself. Considering the amount of different cultures & ideologies that exist in Europe I think he should get out more.

You only need go and read the cinematography forums to realise that skepticism is worldwide when it comes to RED and it is only from proof through progress that things will change.

[Mardi_Gras]

Not all dutch folks are sticking their heads in the sand. On the pic we can see a very early adopter of one of the prototypes of the Red One, presumably prins Bernhard of Holland. This film and photo fanatic (and good friend of JJ) is trying Red's outdoor high-contrast behaviour while on one of his wild-life trips to Afrika in 1973. Rumor has it that he actually developed the Mysterium Sensor and almost took it into the grave with him...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/339_1167566729.jpg

Nice compositing job. Didn't fool my 4 yr old son, though. He was first to spot the film camera beneath the plate with the Red-like image. Good try though~

[Rob Lohman]

Thanks Floris! :)

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

For Arkham to generalize about a whole continent of people and claim they're lazy is lazy and narrow minded in itself.

You're absolutly right! That's why I never talked about some sort of "laziness", as you seem to claim I did. As to your "generalization" comment, I disagree, of course, since I clearly mentionned there were many many exceptions :) Basically, I just said I sometimes had the IMPRESSION many (NOT ALL: since I said all the people I personaly know and all the people I meet over here) europeans (myself included, probably... at least, sometimes) need a little more "drive", "enthousiasm" and "positive energy".

But these are nothing but impressions: not facts! As a matter of fact, I have been living quite a while in northern California (working as an engineer for a "very large internet startup", during the bubble-days) and thus, I think you can understand where I am coming from. Back then, I was surrounded by people who knew what these words --"think positive", "think different"-- really meant. Now, I'm back home, in rainy Belgium... spending a few minutes here and there arguing with bitter french people on an infamous forum. But let me tell you again: I spend most of my time working with great people (directors, producers, actors, musicians and other professional artists) coming from all over Europe... It's just that I have the impression I am very lucky to know many "positive minded people", for I have the impression these are rather the exception than the rule! If you don't know what I am talking about, if don't know why I dared to use the word "zombie" (which doesn't mean "lazy", BTW), I would be very pleased if you could come one day over Brussels (or over Paris, for that matter) and sit in a public transport for 5 minutes. Or better yet: try to talk about some sort of "non-Sony" video-camera on the "Repaire". I could give you many other exemples, but one thing I am willing to bet is that eventually, you will definitly understand where my impressions are coming from :)

But as a matter of fact, impressions are just impressions and you certainly don't have to call me "narrow minded" because of my impressions. Impressions are, by definition, highly subjective. You'd be right to call me "narrow minded" though if I claimed these were facts... :) It's as if I said "I don't really like the taste of oranges", and you'd reply me: "well, this is very narrow minded of you to say that oranges taste like s..t, since many oranges are delicious" :)

[donatello b]

"Send me their names and I will add them to my "do not sell to list"

glad to see i'm not the only one with a "do not " list ..
there are 3 Dp's in my area that are on my do not let see/use my REDS ..
if they ever call about using/seeing my REDS i'll quote them their post from cinematograpghy.com

[Stephen Williams]

"Send me their names and I will add them to my "do not sell to list"

glad to see i'm not the only one with a "do not " list ..
there are 3 Dp's in my area that are on my do not let see/use my REDS ..
if they ever call about using/seeing my REDS i'll quote them their post from cinematograpghy.com

Hi Donatello,

I hope I am not on your list!

Stephen

[garageman]

You're absolutly right! That's why I never talked about some sort of "laziness", as you seem to claim I did. As to your "generalization" comment, I disagree, of course, since I clearly mentionned there were many many exceptions :) Basically, I just said I sometimes had the IMPRESSION many (NOT ALL: since I said all the people I personaly know and all the people I meet over here) europeans (myself included, probably... at least, sometimes) need a little more "drive", "enthousiasm" and "positive energy".

But these are nothing but impressions: not facts! As a matter of fact, I have been living quite a while in northern California (working as an engineer for a "very large internet startup", during the bubble-days) and thus, I think you can understand where I am coming from. Back then, I was surrounded by people who knew what these words --"think positive", "think different"-- really meant. Now, I'm back home, in rainy Belgium... spending a few minutes here and there arguing with bitter french people on an infamous forum. But let me tell you again: I spend most of my time working with great people (directors, producers, actors, musicians and other professional artists) coming from all over Europe... It's just that I have the impression I am very lucky to know many "positive minded people", for I have the impression these are rather the exception than the rule! If you don't know what I am talking about, if don't know why I dared to use the word "zombie" (which doesn't mean "lazy", BTW), I would be very pleased if you could come one day over Brussels (or over Paris, for that matter) and sit in a public transport for 5 minutes. Or better yet: try to talk about some sort of "non-Sony" video-camera on the "Repaire". I could give you many other exemples, but one thing I am willing to bet is that eventually, you will definitly understand where my impressions are coming from :)

But as a matter of fact, impressions are just impressions and you certainly don't have to call me "narrow minded" because of my impressions. Impressions are, by definition, highly subjective. You'd be right to call me "narrow minded" though if I claimed these were facts... :) It's as if I said "I don't really like the taste of oranges", and you'd reply me: "well, this is very narrow minded of you to say that oranges taste like s..t, since many oranges are delicious" :)

Well, claiming subjectivity is an easy excuse for one's utterances, impressions are facts too but I'll refrain from semantic philosophy for now. I've been in Brussels, Paris and plenty other European and American cities and on a basic level most people are the same, pessimistic in the short run but optimistic in the long run. Just don't fall into the political spin of "old Europe/new Europe BS, it doesn't exist on the level of genuine ordinary people.

If you talk to people in any established industry they wil have prejudices of some sort, we are all creatures of habit liable to take the path of least resistance, I've done it myself many times.
I believe people are not "exceptions" but have moments when they make exceptional choices, some many more than others. I'm sure there are plenty of film-camera people who hate the idea of using digital cameras but who may eventually make the choice of "exception" and take the leap of faith into digital cinema but they will also be influenced by the market. I too was in this very position a few years ago.

[Barend Onneweer]

I'm no moderator on this forum, and don't claim to have any such authority. But here's my personal thought on the spin on this thread.

I'd love to see reduser.net be a knowledgebase about the development of Red products, and how to use them. Sharing honest thoughts, speculations and soon experiences.

The signal to noise ratio of this place is seriously threatened (in my personal opinion) by the continuous verbal battles between skeptics and fanboys, that contain no useful information whatsoever (again, in my personal opinion).

This very thread is a good example of this. The thread starts with a dubious post from a 'non-believer', and at the moment of writing has 7 pages of fanboys ranting about things that are "so not about this camera". There's a very strong tendency to make the tone religious, which personally I find in very bad taste.

I've got a reservation for a Red One and a zoom, and I have great confidence that Jim will pull this one off. But why do some people need to create an "us versus them"? I'm guessing it might be a matter of low self-esteem, and if you look at history nothing good ever came from creating such a "mutual enemy".

So I propose that we try to keep reduser.net dedicated to discussions about the use of current and future Red products.

Barend

[vanguy]

My only concern is that the Genuine Seeker not be railroaded off the site.

But I don't think that's the quality of people here.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I hope I'm not on that list either. I've uttered the phrase 'extremely unlikely' more than my share of times. Of course I didn't know they were going to develop a new codec too, so that's my excuse...

[Matthew Greene]

I'm lucky enough to know that when you get a group of brilliant and passionate people together nothing is impossible.

I design things that make people fly, and things dissapear for a living. Believe me there is always a method to the impossible.

[garageman]

No one can really complain about a product they don't actually have in their hands. This is a site for information and development about a future product which some of us have tentatively invested in, we can speculate and doubt all we want but we cannot criticise something we don't actually have.

Those of us who would choose to no longer believe can easily go and get our money back if we have invested any

When some of us do get our hands on RED then we can really shout for joy or whatever else.

[Jason Francois]

Apparently Cirrus have a personal Jet in the works too. Really must get my wings...

Thanks guys. Honda has one out in the $4 million range, but I'm still just learning. I will start to devour this type of research like I do with RED. :)

I'm just starting to research getting my pilots license and how many years it will take to be able to pilot small jets.

Maybe I can get my license so that I can transport myself around with the RED camera. :)

[Joe Carney]

humor/
arkham, maybe the French are upset because they didn't invent it? I'm still looking for a French citizen that actually like or at least tolerates Americans.
For the whiners, they will just find something else to complain about, no matter how good the RED is. In fact, they will complain about how GOOD the RED is, thats' it, hehehe.
/humor

ElCurado, I know an American Independent film maker who lived, filmed and sometimes taught in Italy, mainly Rome. He said the problem wasn't the students, but lazy, inept administration just trying to collect a paycheck and protect their turf. He said that was true of many of the Euro film schools and boards and other established institutions.
They stifle the ones trying to break out. But they're finding a way to do what they want anyway. So...
Stay strong and resolute and pursue your dreams. Do what ever it takes to make the movie you want. Better to ask forgiveness than permission.

But what do I know, I'm just another American middle aged fat man. hehehe

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

impressions are facts too

Hum! Please allow me to disagree with this :) If I say (that's just an example: I don't believe this) I have the impression the earth is flat, for if I look the horizon, it looks pretty flat to me, would you say I'm telling some sort of facts? Would you keep claiming subjectivity is just a "cheap excuse"! Quite the oposite in fact: I admit I could be wrong! What else would you like me to say? Does that sound dramatically dishonest to you? "I COULD BE WRONG! I'm a simple human being!" Do you think I'm lying here? Do you think I'm trying to manipulate the truth? Do you think I am arrogant, "narrow minded", manipulative by using "cheap excuses" in claiming my own humanity and my own right to make mistakes?


on a basic level most people are the same, pessimistic in the short run but optimistic in the long run

That wasn't my impression, but you're probably right! But this won't change my own impressions, so let's stop arguing about this :)


Just don't fall into the political spin of "old Europe/new Europe BS

Sorry if I gave you that impression, for that wasn't my intention! I hate politics and I really don't trust ANY politician, no matter where they come from. I just happen to live in a special part of Europe which is very different from where you live, and I just feel, no matter what you may think about my personal feelings, that many people over here are a little too much on the "let's play it very very very safe" side of things! To give you an example, the region I come from received the same amount of money for 10 years from the EC for its "economic development" than your entire country. End result: nothing! Billions of Euros of wasted money and we're still suffering one of the highest unemployment rate of the world. Zero entrepreneurial spirit! Half of the population is either employed by the government or is simply... unemployed. Actually, we're even worse than before we got the money from the EC... Don't ask me why... You, the Irish people, you have definitly made a much better use of the money you've received, and that's a fact, not on impression of mine! So why would you try to convice me I'm just "narrow minded?"

Again, I don't blame you for your own impressions which are of course, the opposite of mine! Different countries, different experiences, different cultures, different lives! But why would YOU claim to hold the Truth with a capital T? Are you a super-Human of some sort?


we are all creatures of habit liable to take the path of least resistance, I've done it myself many times.

So did I! That doesn't mean I don't know the "path of least resistance" is very likely to be the wrong one...


I'm sure there are plenty of film-camera people who hate the idea of using digital cameras

It's funny you mention this, for I have been an ardent proponent of film vs digi-beta for a documentary in Antartica and the very same people (the "French whiners, who claim all the "Red Customers" are "stupid, gullible and foolish amateurs") I complain about, the very same people you actually try to defend by calling me "narrow minded", these people told me how "ridiculous and stupid" I was because I thought I'd rather choose "top quality super16mm" for shooting that documentary rather than Digi-Beta... No comment :)

Bottom line: I LOVE film! But I also believe RED is gonna be good enough for me to forget about my beloved "35mm"!

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

I'm still looking for a French citizen that actually like or at least tolerates Americans.

I'm sure there are some, just as I really appreciate Americans. That doesn't mean I do appreciate everything you -or your decision makers- do, but I try to be "fair and balanced" and I have to admit we do have many things to learn from you guys!

Again, thanks to the Red Team for showing the world again how great the enterpreneurial spirit can be! The whole world needs more people like you guys!

[GlennChan]

Hum! Please allow me to disagree with this If I say (that's just an example: I don't believe this) I have the impression the earth is flat, for if I look the horizon, it looks pretty flat to me, would you say I'm telling some sort of facts? Would you keep claiming subjectivity is just a "cheap excuse"! Quite the oposite in fact: I admit I could be wrong!


To go on a digression here, I would disagree with the example (although I'd agree the argument behind it). If you think about it, the earth is only slightly curved (over a really big distance). That curve (or lack of) is too small to judge by the naked eye, so you can't really tell if the earth is flat or slightly curved.

In other aspects though, our senses can be wrong. For example, what we see is not accurate due to metamerism, atmospheric effects (i.e. mirages in the desert), etc. We also sometimes hallucinate (even when not on drugs), confuse dreams with reality, etc.

Anyways, I digress. :D Back to Red....

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

That curve (or lack of) is too small to judge by the naked eye, so you can't really tell if the earth is flat or slightly curved.

Exactly! And this is precisely why my example was valid after all, for the amount of people I really know is way too small for me to judge whether people over here really are the way I sometimes think "most of them" are :D It's all about sampling and extrapolation based upon that sampling, in fact, just to get back to our electonician language and to the typical Red discussion :)

PS I'm gonna stop digressing too, for I'll be accused to "cheat in order to artificially inflate my Posts' number" ;)

PS 2: HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL OF YOU! (even the non-believers :) )

[Corrado Silveri]

Stay strong and resolute and pursue your dreams. Do what ever it takes to make the movie you want. Better to ask forgiveness than permission.

But what do I know, I'm just another American middle aged fat man. hehehe

Thanks, Zeke. I'm trying.
But what do I know, I'm just another Italian middle aged not-so-fat man. hehehe

Corrado.

[PaulClements]

Man I wish I hadn't read this thread... what a waste of my time, infact why the hell am I writing a response heheheh

[Emanuel A.]

ElCurado, I know an American Independent film maker who lived, filmed and sometimes taught in Italy, mainly Rome.Are you talking about Jost, right Joe? ;-)

[RayFrisby]

This is my first and last post on the real or imagined, will it or wont it materialise debate, as I fell them ultimately pointless and a waste of creative and emotional energy. These questions are universal and at the heart of any new undertaking, whether it was Ernest Shackelton’s adventures to the South Poll to the Lumieri brothers first few tentative feet of magic. In the end all pursuits come down to a few simple questions, do you hope, believe and trust the story this person is telling you. When I see the people on board, the time spent, andt he reputations on the line I have no doubt these people are genuine, I have no doubt they are committed. Do I doubt the outcome, everything in a new venture (life) is uncertain and up for grabs, but do I trust these guys to push themselves and not to give in to uncertainty? Yes!!

[Joe Carney]

Are you talking about Jost, right Joe? ;-)

Yes, my son interned with him back in 2001 when he still lived in Rome. He's teaching in the States now, but goes back frequently. He's made a few more films since then.

Joe C.

[samuel33]

humor/
arkham, maybe the French are upset because they didn't invent it? I'm still looking for a French citizen that actually like or at least tolerates Americans.


that's sooooooooooo stupid dude.....


I'm french iknow this french forum "le repaire" contrary to what was said there are people there who believe in Red. In fact the problem is that many french doesn't speak a good english or doesn't go often on dvxuser.
Is it why I -and others- translate news from here to them.
So there is a lot of french people intrested in REd even in the "repaire".....

[samuel33]

I just want to say to arkham if you have PRIVATE problems with some guys in the french forum please doesn't insult all the members and your country too....

[Jason Francois]

So if i continue your way of speaking :"french hate american, blacks dance very well, homo are effeminate...... " you make me puke sorry


Yes, I dance well. Thank you. :)

......Just trying to lighten it up a bit guys and gals.

[Jarred Land]

guys play nice.... last warning.

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

Samuel, I don't really understand why you personaly got offended? First, Zeke was just ironic (hence the "/humor" warning). It was a joke, not unlike the many ironic jokes one can read against americans over the French forums. Does that mean the people writing those actually believe what they write? Not really: this form of humor is called "irony"... Also, as a Belgian person myself, shall I remind you the thousand jokes you, the French people, say each year against us? Does this mean I'm offended by any of your jokes against Belgian people? Nope! Because I know you don't really believe what you say! Why? Because of that little thing called "humor"...

Furthermore, about my own comments, you know I never had you in mind when I spoke about the lack of enthusiasm seen on "le repaire", since you were rather interested in the Red, am I right or not? Second, all I meant to say was that I was a little bit under the impression there was too much sceptiscism over there. Too much sceptiscism and non constructive arguments/discussions... This, in my humble opinion, seems indeed to be caused by a lack of positive energy, hence my "old" and "living-dead" adjectives. Pazu (one of the few other Redheads on the repaire) basically told the very same thing than I did. On the repaire, he wrote: "En France, on critique! On râle!" which can be translated by "In France, all we do is criticize and whine!". But he never seemed to offend anyone and certainly never got the attention you grant me right now (for what reason, I'm not so sure? BUt it's been months you seem to hold some sort of a grudge against me: can we please settle this down by PM?).

I also said I could be wrong in my judgment, even though many people over here perfectly understood where I was coming from and that these were not to be considered to be insults, but rather some sort of sadness. How comes each and everytime someone gets a new idea and has the drive (and found the ressources) to make it real, it causes so much negative energy from... "bitter souls"? Is that a more politically correct word for you? If not, let me ask you to read the "Hecklers and Fanboys" thread which sticks on top of this forum and you will understand that I am not the only one over here who feels tired of constantly hearing "non constructive kinda criticism against the Red team"... Thoses sort of discussions were boring in the past! Nowadays, they're even more than boring, due to the recent developments...

What puzzles me is the reason YOU got offended here? Did you think I spoke about you! Not at all! And you know it! You were one of the 2 or 3 people (rather the exceptions than the rule, don't you think so?) who were enthusiastic about the Red on the "repaire".

But, then, what puzzles me is why can't you understand my own disapointment about what happened on the "repaire"? By comparision, let me remind you what happened on cinematography.com which is pretty similar, except, AFAIRC, it never really went up to Red Proponents being insulted the way I have been...

Did you ever get insulted for daring to believe and arguing for the reality and the honorability of the Red team Samuel? No! I did!

Did you ever get insulted for daring to say that the "break-in episode was genuine and not a set-up or a cheap marketing trick from the Red company?" No! I did!

Did you get your own PRIVATE messages published (something illegal) in a lame attempt to humiliate you? No! I did! Did I sue the one who did it? Nope!

Was I a vocal advocate of the Red! Yes! That's the only thing you can hold against me... But I never intended to fuel a fire I didn't start in the first place.

ALL I'VE EVER SAID IS THAT I TRUST THE RED TEAM! And that I have a hard time to understand why there is so much bitterness against them! This is not a PRIVATE problem with one person (or a dozen to be correct) on the repaire! This is my own, genuine opinion. And would we be be face-to-face right now, I would tell you exactly the same thing: I TRUST THE RED TEAM AND I AM TIRED OF HECKLERS (or ZOMBIES, as I'd rather call them, if you grant me the right to use a little humor this time :)) ! Good thing Jim has now created a sticky thread about that very subject! :)

So, I think all has been said, either here, or on that sticky thread on the top of this forum. Can we move on to some better discussions or to PM if you really want to keep discussing it?

[Joe Carney]

Arkham, thanks for getting the 'real' meaning of my post. Just trying to show empathy and humor for your bad situation. I'm sure most French people who read it realized that.

For the record, my paternal heritage is French and Irish and I love French Cinema. They are masters of color and light.. So on an upside, I'll leave it at that.

[samuel33]

zeke my answer to your post was a little bit aggressive (the comparison is lame)
sorry, to be forgiven i will give you some "freedom fries" next time :rolleyes:

[Sanjin Jukic]

A short lesson in film history:

Section 1 - Cameras:

1. "Louis and Auguste Lumière (both FRENCH) were pioneer contributors to the birth of film in 1895.
The Lumière camera was a machine for both film projection and development..."
http://holonet.khm.de/visual_alchemy/lumiere-x.html


2. Red One Digital Cinema Camera - a 4k "film-style" digital camera that will revolutionize new movie content creation with its size, affordability and advanced digital 4K workflow in 2007.

"The person behind the camera is Jim Jannard (AMERICAN) of Oakley. Basicaly he got fed up of poor quality cameras and companies that didn't listen. He's also a camera nut.

But he wants feedback, feature request etc. He wants to listen!

Graeme"
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9566&pid=53863&mode=threaded&show=&st=