Red production package. What's needed? [Archive]

sbaechler

09-05-2007, 01:34 AM

This is the package I would order for an average TV movie with a one million dollar budget.
If you want to rent out your camera that's what you have to provide or have access to:

Camera package:

2 RED bodies (One as backup and occasional 2nd camera) with full accessories.
1 RED 18-50mm Zoom
1 RED PRIME SET
1 RED 50-150mm ZOOM
1 RED 300mm prime (for these prices I can easily take all the lenses)
6 RED batteries with two four-bay chargers
4 RED RAM 32GB drives

1 Mattebox 6x6 Arri MB-14
1 Clip-on Mattebox Arri LMB-5
1 Follow Focus Arri FF3
1 Remote Focus (i.e.BFD or Fox)
1 O'Connor 2060 head
1 Sachtler 6+6 head (or O'Connor)
1 long legs
1 short legs
1 Hi Hat
1 Onboard HDSDI downconverter (for RF-Video transmitter and VTR)
1 RF-Video transmitter
1 18-inch HD production monitor with integrated waveform
1 8-inch HD production monitor with integrated waveform (i.e. Panasonic)
1 SD-Harddisk recorder (until camera playback is enabled)

Filters:

2 Series 85 (4x4 + 6x6)
2 Series ND (4x4 + 6x6)
1 Series ND soft grad 6x6
1 Series ND hard grad 6x6
2 Series Schneider Classic soft (4x4 + 6x6)

I guess that should do it.
Regards
Simon

Álex Montoya

09-05-2007, 01:49 AM

That's a nice list. Truth is it can be done with a lot less.

sbaechler

09-05-2007, 02:06 AM

Truth is it can be done with a lot less.

That's not the point. This is not a wedding video package. This is for a full length feature. The production company has the budget for this package and is willing to spend the money on it.

So far I noticed that a lot of people ordered the camera but not the important accessories like mattebox, follow focus and fluid head. The rental houses I talked to that have those items are not really willing to rent out just the accessories without a camera for a few weeks. This will leave a lot of people with a camera that is of no use for a production.

Simon

vidalsosa

09-05-2007, 02:14 AM

That's not the point. This is not a wedding video package. This is for a full length feature.
Can still be done with much less like Concrete opined.

So far I noticed that a lot of people ordered the camera but not the important accessories like mattebox, follow focus and fluid head. The rental houses I talked to that have those items are not really willing to rent out just the accessories without a camera for a few weeks. This will leave a lot of people with a camera that is of no use for a production.

Simon

Blanket assumption. Not exactly true.

Seung Han

09-05-2007, 02:21 AM

I believe Simon has made it clear that this is a professional package a production house would rent for a feature film with a $1,000,000 budget.

As far as this statement is concerned...

This will leave a lot of people with a camera that is of no use for a production.

Simon

I hope he is referring to people who bought the Red with the intention to rent it out to a production house with a budget for a $1,000,000 feature. Otherwise, he is forgetting a whole legion of resourceful Indie Filmmakers who will get plenty of use out of this camera...

Rob Worth

09-05-2007, 02:32 AM

That's a nice list. Truth is it can be done with a lot less.

Could you take the original list and tell us what 'a lot less' would consist of? I have a reservation for a Red One but I would be interested in a list of accessories that is sufficient but not overboard.

Thanks,

Bobble

Álex Montoya

09-05-2007, 02:34 AM

I mainly object to the two bodies. The post seems designed by a rental facility to scare potential buyers.

Truth is, that if a production company really needs two bodies of a camera, they will rent it from different facilities.

Here you have, under "camcorder 4k", what one of the main rental facilities in spain is offering for rental. You don't need to OWN anythin more and the lenses can be easily changed for the RED primes or even the RED zoom set, since most productions will adapt to your lens set as long as they are not crap or they don't have special needs.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1434_1188984745.jpg

Basically the body, EVF, charger, batteries, lenses, 2 RED drives, FF, matte box, tripod and monitoring of some kind.

Seung Han

09-05-2007, 02:43 AM

Thanks for a different 'professional' perspective...

Andreas Höhn

09-05-2007, 02:46 AM

I think one wide angle like a 10,12 or 14mm would be nice too. Additional i would carry 4x big-block batteries from AVC.

dino g

09-05-2007, 02:54 AM

i agree with simon, that is why i have partnered with existing cinema rental houses, that own and have rented every single piece of eq, except the red one.

if you want that exact package this sat, sept 8 or beyond, http://redone4rent.com

Chris Parker

09-05-2007, 02:18 PM

sbaechler

09-06-2007, 07:46 AM

The rental price would be in the range of the Super16mm kit that it would replace.
I'ts very common to have two bodies on a production. In case one body dies and you have to wait a day for another camera to arrive it would cost a producer upwards of 10'000$. And the spare RED body will be in the same as an SR-II body to rent.

Simon

Paul Leeming

09-06-2007, 09:48 AM

How many days are you shooting for? Define the Red cameras' accessories. Would you need two FULL camera packages or one full package and one additional body only? Your most recent post above mine seems to contradict your original specs post.

Also some of your specs are a little mixed up; for example there are no RED RAM 32GB drives, only 320GB HDD based RedDrives or 8-16GB Compact Flash cards (currently). The RED RAM as I understand it will be a 96-128GB SSD based RedDrive at a much higher cost to the HDD based one. Also the Red Bricks, if bought as a Power Pack, consist of two batteries along with one two-bay sequential charger with AC out if you want to use that. Your nearest spec to that would be 8 bricks and four Red charging docks.

Roughly eyeballing your list, there's about US$150,000 worth of hardware there. If you have an exact purchase price list for all the items by all means correct me (I'd really be interested). Based on theoretical industry averages of 1% of purchase value per day as rental price, that's US$1,500 per day rental, assuming in the early days that you could actually book two of these cameras. I imagine that initially (at least up to 6 months or so from now at a minimum) demand is far going to outstrip supply, so the rental price would no doubt be higher than the 1% mark per day.

The last piece of the rental price analysis is that you mention your package as a replacement for Super16mm. In my opinion, footage from Red is easily equal to, or even superior to, 35mm footage. That's where I'm targeting my Red packages - superior imagery, easier workflow, no stock/processing/telecine costs, for less money than a full blown 35mm shoot. I'm not pricing my packages in line with Super16mm, because the imagery produced from this camera is IMHO more valuable than 35mm imagery and should be valued accordingly, regardless of the purchase price of purely the camera body, at least until demand and supply stabilise.

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Paul

Patrick Tresch

09-06-2007, 10:06 AM

Hello Simon!

It's Patrick from Lausanne...

It's crazy that we swiss aren't capable of doing things simply. We are a small country with very very small budgets, why spend on 2 camera bodies? Is it an insurance? Don't forget that in less than 1 month there is going to be an other REDONE body here in Lausanne and in Bienne and... Redone cameras are going to pop in every corner.

I love your profesionalism as I already worked with you. But don't you think it is over reacting just to reassure the production company and the director who are afraid of this new beast?

Let them put this monney in real creative means and not in insurances.

My two cent pov.

See you soon.

Patrick

PS: you still can make contact with other REDONE owners to back you up!

sbaechler

09-06-2007, 01:15 PM

How many days are you shooting for? Define the Red cameras' accessories. ....

Also some of your specs are a little mixed up; for example there are no RED RAM 32GB drives, only 320GB HDD based RedDrives or 8-16GB Compact Flash cards (currently). ...

I'm not pricing my packages in line with Super16mm, because the imagery produced from this camera is IMHO more valuable than 35mm imagery and should be valued accordingly, regardless of the purchase price of purely the camera body, at least until demand and supply stabilise.

Cheers,

Paul

Dear Paul

A TV movie usually shoots five to six weeks. The accessories would be cage, viewfinder, onboard monitor, rods and battery holder.

Right now there is a 64GB flash based drive in the Red shop. I'd prefer a few of those over the harddrive because there will be absolutely no noise and I'm a bit afraid that the hard drive might get damaged when the camera gets hit by something while recording and the heads touch the disk thereby destroying the 30 takes we did before.
The 150'000$ worth of equipment is about right. That's not much actually. Right now the lenses alone cost more than that.

I don't think the image is better than 35mm. Even though you have maybe a little better resolution 35mm has plenty as well. But more important 35mm has more exposure latitude and color resolution. You can post the hell out of 35mm. While you will be very limited by the red's digital nature and strong compression. And another important point is that there is no proven post workflow yet. You will not be able to natively edit Redcode RAW in Avid for at least another year.
The main sales point for the red is the low rental price and the fact that you don't have to buy film stock and have no lab fees.

Simon

sbaechler

09-06-2007, 01:45 PM

Hello Simon!
I love your profesionalism as I already worked with you. But don't you think it is over reacting just to reassure the production company and the director who are afraid of this new beast?

Hi Patrick

I think it is not. If you shoot in Hollywood where there will be a RED at every corner it might be ok. But if you shoot let's say in the mountains where you have to wait a full day to get a backup body it will cost the producer more money than the little extra he has to pay for a RED body. I mean that body will be less than the video tap of an SR-III at Megarent.
And don't forget, you can shoot 2 cameras if you need to.

I've worked on quite a few low budget features and we always had a second body with us when we were shooting out of town.

damonbots

09-06-2007, 01:51 PM

So far I noticed that a lot of people ordered the camera but not the important accessories like mattebox, follow focus and fluid head.
Simon

Where did you notice this? How could you possibly know what we already have or have on order?

The rental houses I talked to that have those items are not really willing to rent out just the accessories without a camera for a few weeks. This will leave a lot of people with a camera that is of no use for a production.
Simon

Rental houses won't rent accessories without a camera. That's really helpful. And there's nobody out there who already owns accessories that may just want to rent the camera? I find that hard to believe. Also, your definition of production is pretty exclusive. I'm sorry, but these are blanket statement and I find them ridiculous.

Blair S. Paulsen

09-06-2007, 01:54 PM

Dear Paul (SNIP)
I don't think the image is better than 35mm. Even though you have maybe a little better resolution 35mm has plenty as well. But more important 35mm has more exposure latitude and color resolution. You can post the hell out of 35mm. While you will be very limited by the red's digital nature and strong compression. And another important point is that there is no proven post workflow yet. You will not be able to natively edit Redcode RAW in Avid for at least another year.
Simon

You may well be correct in your statements above but unless you have run extensive tests how can you be so sure? How exactly are we "very limited" by the RedOne's "digital nature"? What does that mean? While the compression ratio is high from a purely numerical perspective not all compression is created equal. In terms of image elasticity in post the RedOne offers a RAW color space that highly malleable.

Well exposed 35mm film scanned well into 4K DPXs should look fabulous but I contend so will RED footage. I further contend that the ability to use top quality optics on a S35 sensor makes the RED much more than just another video camera. Of course, until side by side comparisons are done we're only speculating.

Patrick Tresch

09-06-2007, 02:15 PM

Dear Paul
While you will be very limited by the red's digital nature and strong compression. And another important point is that there is no proven post workflow yet. You will not be able to natively edit Redcode RAW in Avid for at least another year.
Simon

Simon,

I must admit I didn't do any tests with this camera nor the whole post process. But even in 35mm you don't edit on a 15m screen. You edit it on an AVID in SD (or an Steenbeck if you want) so it's not necessary to edit in 4k REdcode Raw. For the comforming process it's true that Redcode is not yet implemented natively in AVID. But you can work in the best 2k resolution DPX 10bit uncompressed in many systems (qantel/davinci/matrix...) including AVID (nitris). And if you want to have the whole 4k uncompressed you can work with proxies and output 4k dpx files from these platforms.

Avid is approaching RED to implement redcode.

Yes Redcode raw is compressed (12X or so) but raw is a completely other story than old video signals (rgb/yuv). I suppose you allready worked with raw on your still camera. Color management has nothing to do with "common" video signals. It's true that negativ has a beatiful depth and you can find in telecine things you never imagined. I think RAW is aproching the negative mesterium.

Hope to work with you soon.

Pat
:cold:

tj williams

09-06-2007, 09:26 PM

On a 2 million movie can I have Cooke lenses?

Finner

09-06-2007, 09:59 PM

on a 10million plus movie you can get me.

donatello b

09-06-2007, 10:55 PM

"TV movie usually shoots five to six weeks"

when i started in the business in 1980 TV movies of the week were shot 32-36 days ( 5 day week )
by 1995 they were being shot 15-18 days ( 6 day week)

pixeltv

09-07-2007, 02:39 AM

Hi all,

In Spain are possible rent a RED basic config from 500 Euro/day!

Body RED.
RED view finder.
RED Monitor 5,6" 16:9
Optical zoom 50-150 mm F2,8.
HD 320 Gb.
Bat´s 140 Wh/e
Charger
Follow focus Dinamicam system. Wireless with microwave video and LCD-TFT 5" monitor.
Mate box.
Cases.

1 day: 500 Euro ($680)
2 days: 750 Euro ($1,020)
3 days: 1.100 Euro ($ 1,496)
4 days: 1.400 Euro ($1,904)
.......
15 days: 2.900 Euro ($3.944)
1 month: 7.500 Euro ($10.200)

See:

http://www.mundogrua.com

Good!

sbaechler

09-08-2007, 05:38 AM

I must admit I didn't do any tests with this camera nor the whole post process. But even in 35mm you don't edit on a 15m screen. You edit it on an AVID in SD (or an Steenbeck if you want) so it's not necessary to edit in 4k REdcode Raw. For the comforming process it's true that Redcode is not yet implemented natively in AVID. But you can work in the best 2k resolution DPX 10bit uncompressed in many systems (qantel/davinci/matrix...) including AVID (nitris). And if you want to have the whole 4k uncompressed you can work with proxies and output 4k dpx files from these platforms.

:cold:

I would even edit in 6s if I had to. But the problem is the time it takes to downconvert about 100GB of 4K redcode raw footage every day.
I mean I was at Online a few weeks ago and we had to import a 2 minute end credit which was a 1080 TIFF sequence into their Avid Adrenaline. It took two hours! Now imagine 60 minutes of footage with four times the resolution every day.
There is also always the danger that the original footage will not resync in the end.

It took Avid almost a year to support HDV and over a year to fully support P2.
I hope that they will adapt Redcode RAW sooner.

Simon

sbaechler

09-08-2007, 05:45 AM

Where did you notice this? How could you possibly know what we already have or have on order?

Rental houses won't rent accessories without a camera. That's really helpful. And there's nobody out there who already owns accessories that may just want to rent the camera? I find that hard to believe. Also, your definition of production is pretty exclusive. I'm sorry, but these are blanket statement and I find them ridiculous.

I asked a few friends who have a camera on order (about seven). None of them has a mattebox or a follow focus. And without those items you are screwed if you want to shoot a moving person or shoot with the sun elsewhere but behind you.

The rental houses I talked to don't offer the RED camera. They are rather holding back their accessories in case someone wants to rent a 16mm camera.

Simon

Jonathan L. Bowen

09-08-2007, 06:03 AM

I thought that was a pretty useful list. Doesn't "scare" me -- if the packages we assemble initially aren't sufficient, i.e. if we lose business because we don't have this or that, I have the cash to make sure that never happens again. Some people say they can't afford this or that... I can't afford NOT to have what is necessary to have my packages rented out on a frequent basis.

Considering our company won't just have one package to rent out, though, I think we'll be assembling different options. We've talked to a number of people who think a $3,500 to $5,000 tripod would work great for the RED One, despite what many people say, which is that you can't get by without a $14,000 tripod -- Hollywood crap. Not true whatsoever. But it's supposed to "scare" the little guys. Nice try, $14,000 isn't going to scare me, if that's what I had to get, I could afford a dozen of them and not blink. It's a matter of what is necessary. I'd rather have one $14,000 tripod and rent it out to the, ahem, "professionals" who think you need that, and one $3,500 tripod to rent for cheaper to the more budget-conscious producers.

I have a low opinion of people who think you need the most expensive, most massive set of equipment imaginable to make anything good. Those people are compensating for something, usually a poor story, bad concept, or lack of a good creative team. Give Steven Spielberg and a great crew the most basic crap imaginable and he'll run circles around people with 100 times the budget. But if people will pay for renting massive packages of things they don't really need, I'll certainly have no problems being there to take their money, with pleasure and a smile. ;)

Ken Willinger

09-08-2007, 06:21 AM

I have a low opinion of people who think you need the most expensive, most massive set of equipment imaginable to make anything good. Those people are compensating for something, usually a poor story, bad concept, or lack of a good creative team.

Experience counts for a lot. Many of the people who you may have a low opinion of (I guess you'd have to count me in there), have been in this business for an awful long time. I know I've tried pretty much every configuration of crap gear to the best gear in real world situations. If it was up to me on a production, I'm going to want to use the best gear available. Subpar equipment will in the end cause you delays and subpar performance...and most likely time and money.

Steve Sherrick

09-11-2007, 11:52 AM

Jonathan, have you ever done a pan and tilt with some complexity in the movement? Have you ever had to follow action and then come to a completely smooth, perfect stop? If you have, you will come to the conclusion that some tripods (those in the lower ranges) just don't do a great job of it. They may be okay, but when you use a tripod with one of the great heads you quickly realize why they are more expensive amd why people use them. I don't want to pay $15K for a tripod either, but I do realize that I have to find one that meets what I would consider to be good enough for my own standards. And that may cost me a pretty penny. Until the market changes, the prices are what they are.

Steve

Rocco Schult

09-11-2007, 03:57 PM

...Now imagine 60 minutes of footage with four times the resolution every day...

It took Avid almost a year to support HDV and over a year to fully support P2.
I hope that they will adapt Redcode RAW sooner.

Imagination is exactly the key. We have no clue what the Quicktime wrappers do, or to put it differently, the only thing: A fast downscale, works in realtime. Its left to imagination and reality what can and will happen with that. Still wonder because its more about the pickyness of Avids Quicktime/codec implementation.

HDV and P2 are generally and widely used codecs. We will see if theres a licensin to Avid. Would like to see that, but we all know REDs affiliation with Apple and the more indy-like approach. Thats a place where Avid has lost most if not all ground.

Matt Uhry

09-11-2007, 05:41 PM

I have a low opinion of people who think you need the most expensive, most massive set of equipment imaginable to make anything good. Those people are compensating for something, usually a poor story, bad concept, or lack of a good creative team.

No, it's the most valuable thing to a cinematographer: TIME

GREAT cinematography has been done and continues to be done with poor equipment, but there usually was a lot of time to do it. Typical 18 day $1 million features and Episodic TV benefit from a bit more equipment and crew than a self financed Indie who has a lower per day cost and can take a bit more time to shoot.

When you are hired to shoot a film the production expects you to do great quality work in very little time. You want the film to look amazing and you want the director and Producers to be happy and hire you again. If you can go just a little bit faster with 2 cameras you can avoid the 15 minutes to go to Steadicam or Crane or a Car Rig and 15 minutes to go back and run 2 cameras for stunts or maybe some scenes it makes perfect sense. 30 minutes of overtime incurred just once during the production would easily pay the rental costs on the second body.

If you are making a self financed project and the crew is essentially unpaid one camera might be enough.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Greg M

09-11-2007, 06:19 PM

No, it's the most valuable thing to a cinematographer: TIME

GREAT cinematography has been done and continues to be done with poor equipment, but there usually was a lot of time to do it. Typical 18 day $1 million features and Episodic TV benefit from a bit more equipment and crew than a self financed Indie who has a lower per day cost and can take a bit more time to shoot.

When you are hired to shoot a film the production expects you to do great quality work in very little time. You want the film to look amazing and you want the director and Producers to be happy and hire you again. If you can go just a little bit faster with 2 cameras you can avoid the 15 minutes to go to Steadicam or Crane or a Car Rig and 15 minutes to go back and run 2 cameras for stunts or maybe some scenes it makes perfect sense. 30 minutes of overtime incurred just once during the production would easily pay the rental costs on the second body.

If you are making a self financed project and the crew is essentially unpaid one camera might be enough.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

exactly...time is very valuable.
We have 2 bodies on all our commercial shoots, as you said the savings in time pays for the extra body several times over. Especially when you have jibs, or any other type of rigging. As far as cheaper heads go, sure they will work...but dont fool yourself...there is a huge difference.

If you think a $3500 head will give you the same results as a Oconer 2060 or 2075 you obviously haven't used one.