3D Productions

[Abraham W. Williams]

Hi,
I'm working for an independant production out in Hawaii and We are really considering shooting a martial arts movie in 3D but because 3D's still new ground for us we are grasping for a few answers to come to a solid conclusion on whether shooting 3D would be our best choice. I'm new to reduser.com , and I was hoping that you may be able to shed some light on us here. I'm kind of at a loss at who to call or anything.

-Would anyone have an estimate on how much more time it might take in preproduction on an average movie, to get ready to shoot a 3D feature, or what kind of experts are need for this?

-How much more manpower is necessary during a 3D production vs. 2D?

-What kind of compromises would you think we would have to take as far as the quality of action and martial arts... like in terms of how close you can get to the actors, hand held etc?. Would it be better to do slower paced action?

-I guess this would be the main question: Would fast action and martial arts, like Yuen Woo Ping or a John Woo style movie, lend itself to 3D properly? Would you think it a good idea to shoot something like this in 3D?

Any time in giving suggestions or input we would greatly appreciate.
Thankyou for your time.

-abraham williams

[icester]

Hi,
I'm working for an independant production out in Hawaii and We are really considering shooting a martial arts movie in 3D but because 3D's still new ground for us we are grasping for a few answers to come to a solid conclusion on whether shooting 3D would be our best choice. I'm new to reduser.com , and I was hoping that you may be able to shed some light on us here. I'm kind of at a loss at who to call or anything.

-Would anyone have an estimate on how much more time it might take in preproduction on an average movie, to get ready to shoot a 3D feature, or what kind of experts are need for this?

-How much more manpower is necessary during a 3D production vs. 2D?

-What kind of compromises would you think we would have to take as far as the quality of action and martial arts... like in terms of how close you can get to the actors, hand held etc?. Would it be better to do slower paced action?

-I guess this would be the main question: Would fast action and martial arts, like Yuen Woo Ping or a John Woo style movie, lend itself to 3D properly? Would you think it a good idea to shoot something like this in 3D?

Any time in giving suggestions or input we would greatly appreciate.
Thankyou for your time.

-abraham williams

The starting point is the target audience.
Is the content meant for:
IMAX
General Cinema
Studio Cinema
Home Theater
Desktop Monitor
Laptop/Palmtop
Cell-Phone

Next: what kind of audience
Adrenaline hungry, healthy theme park experienced or
gentle family Disney type movie lovers.

When you have those two settled then I will be able to provide answer to your questions.

Mathew Orman

For state of the art stereoscopic vision systems with: eyestrain free, distortion free and realistic immersion stereoscopic experience contact me
at:
http://www.tyrell-innovations-usa.com/

[KETCH ROSSi]

Abraham, welcome to Reduser..

S3D is not something to be taken lightly, many do, and the price is paid by the viewers..

You can film just about anything, almost no limits to what you can film in S3D, must have the right tools for the Job, a

~ Script must be written in S3D and create a detailed Depth Budget right at the
beginning of the story.

~ Locations must be chosen with S3D in mind, framing of the Subject are also very different then in 2D, way different.

~ Cameras must be tested and so the Lenses, need to be aligned and both cameras must be in Perfect Sync, both at the recording starting point, as everything else, Frame Rate, Shutter Speed, ISO setting etc.

~ Action as just about any other Genre can be shot in S3D no problem, but the requirements will vary greatly from Shot to Shot, depending on how much movement and the speed of the movements.

~ One other factor is to know what effect do you wish to achieve, are they going to be objects flying in to the audience? Are the fight scenes expected to have an arm or a leg create a half a circle in to the audience to create desired effect?

~ Action is been currently shot in more then one venue with different S3D set ups mounted on Shoulder rigs and or Steady Cam rigs, sop no problem at all following and filming Martial Arts scenes in S3D, but tests and choice of Shutter speed must be carefully chosen.

There are many aspect of S3D which should be taken in consideration early on, and not always there are.. BIG MISTAKE.

S3D vs. 2D? An entire different WORLD. Any one can make S3D, few can and will make Good S3D.

It does require more man power, more computing power, and double of Camera and Camera gear off course, lighting will be a major bust compare to 2D shooting, setting up a S3D rig like the fantastic, Element Technica Quasar rig, with two Red ONes will take about half day, not something that you want to set up and undo as you do for single camera shooting in 2D.

Also like Mathew, (BTW Mathew you are also Welcome to REDUSER, but you need your Real Name in the profile in this Forum) already point it pout, is important that you choose an end Media, as the SIze of your Projecting Screen will also dictate many rules during your shooting, you will have to know were your Floating Windows have to be in space and calculate what will be your space inside and out side the screen.


Ultimately if you do have the budget, you need to consult with a Stereographer and a S3D Director, very few of them around currently, and be very careful those that you hire for the job, or you might end up paying for some one to learn at your expense.

Best of luck with your project Abraham.

[Abraham W. Williams]

Thankyou guys very much. Yea it's really a whole new world 3D is. I am going to meet with the crew in a little while and this is going to be a great help to us...

I'll keep you posted on how we get along.

Thanks again!

[GPSchnyder]

One thing. If you do martial Arts in 3D I'd say do not cut that fast as modern Movies do. Take a look at older Stuff, like the shaw brothers did. Longer and wider shots are needed. And I would only be near at the actors when they don't move that much/fast. But then you also need Guys who are able to fight...

[KETCH ROSSi]

Yeah the cutting in S3D not only must be paced slower do to so much more info that the Neurons in your brain have to process via the Visual Cortex, but there are many more issues in post with S3D, such as avoiding cutting a In the screen shot to an out of the screen shot, this is simple terminology, and do not wish to go in extreme details which they are many, but cutting must be taken in serious consideration during the actual shoot to provide the S3D Editor with the needed material, and if the cutting is not done right you will hurt your viewers.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It does require more man power,

It does - but not much - a single 3D rig shoot requires less man power than a two camera 2D shoot.



Element Technica Quasar rig, with two Red ONes will take about half day, not something that you want to set up and undo as you do for single camera shooting in 2D.

You know I love you Ketch - but I have throw the BULLSHIT towel down on this comment. My guys can build the Quasar rig from everything in cases - with two RED ONEs - re-track the lenses - calibrate lens motors - adjust and lock alignment - in less than 30 - 40 minutes. So ... not sure who is telling you - or causing you to take "about a half a day" .... but you might want to adjust their day rate.

[KETCH ROSSi]

It does - but not much - a single 3D rig shoot requires less man power than a two camera 2D shoot.

As I said Mark it requires more man Power :~) and yes agree less the two different camera set ups off course.




You know I love you Ketch - but I have throw the BULLSHIT towel down on this comment. My guys can build the Quasar rig from everything in cases - with two RED ONEs - re-track the lenses - calibrate lens motors - adjust and lock alignment - in less than 30 - 40 minutes. So ... not sure who is telling you - or causing you to take "about a half a day" .... but you might want to adjust their day rate.

I know you do Mark, or at list /i hope you do :~)

The particular about the half day set up for the ET Quasar rig was something I was told from one of the guys at ET!! You know I have been researching for "Rape of a Beauty" S3D shoot, and ET was one of my first stops.

So I'm extremely happy to stand corrected on this detail as I really felt impaired by the fact of having the R1's set up to be so long, so maybe Steve and I should come to NY to shoot the Opening Trailer :emote_happyhappy:

[Abraham W. Williams]

Just a quick question... I'm not sure if you have heard of the 3dFactory?.. But we talked to them and apparently one of their R1 rigs costs around $5,000, which is immensely cheaper then Element Technica's rig. Has anybody had any experience with the 3DFactory rig by any chance. I'm just not sure their's is low quality, or Element technica is overpriced (which I highly doubt).

Cheers
-Abraham

[Michael McVicar]

Yeah the cutting in S3D not only must be paced slower do to so much more info that the Neurons in your brain have to process via the Visual Cortex, but there are many more issues in post with S3D, such as avoiding cutting a In the screen shot to an out of the screen shot, this is simple terminology, and do not wish to go in extreme details which they are many, but cutting must be taken in serious consideration during the actual shoot to provide the S3D Editor with the needed material, and if the cutting is not done right you will hurt your viewers.
That is what I liked about Avatar. It was watchable 3D. The craft showed for the most part.

[Pedro Guimaraes]

Just a quick question... I'm not sure if you have heard of the 3dFactory?.. But we talked to them and apparently one of their R1 rigs costs around $5,000, which is immensely cheaper then Element Technica's rig. Has anybody had any experience with the 3DFactory rig by any chance. I'm just not sure their's is low quality, or Element technica is overpriced (which I highly doubt).

Cheers
-Abraham

All I can say is, as with most things in life. You get what you pay for. There is no free lunch.

ET's rig is just one, but there are options.

http://www.21stcentury3d.com/3d-cameras/3d-digital-cinema/
http://www.pstechnik.de/en/3d-scrig.php

[icester]

Just a quick question... I'm not sure if you have heard of the 3dFactory?.. But we talked to them and apparently one of their R1 rigs costs around $5,000, which is immensely cheaper then Element Technica's rig. Has anybody had any experience with the 3DFactory rig by any chance. I'm just not sure their's is low quality, or Element technica is overpriced (which I highly doubt).

Cheers
-Abraham

Why would you need variable stereo base rig?

Viewers eyes have on average 62.5 mm base.
They sit in front of the screen spaced by distance that yields comfortable 35 to 55 deg view angle.

To make your content viewer friendly use fixed base within 50 to 80 mm
and fixed FL lenses in range from 35 deg to 55 deg horizontal view angle.
Remember for the viewers to see undistorted perspective their view angle must be the same as the 3D camera's view angle.

There aren't any true stereo rigs based on RED cameras.
I make custom stereoscopic adapter fro single and dual camera setups.
The state of the art stereo rig based on RED cameras includes
mechanicaly controlled OFF-AXIS Lens Geometry and full immersion stereoscopic visor with accurate 1:1 scale world geometry and laser projected stereo window markers.
With such rig you can just concentrate on your 3D content scenario instead of wasting time on checking stereo geometry or stereo window violations.
With such rig your post would be just few simple steps like:
Barrel distortion correction with just one distortion map.
And the rest would be just as simple as the 2D editing.

Mathew Orman

For state of the art stereoscopic vision systems with: eyestrain free, distortion free and realistic immersion stereoscopic experience contact me
at:
http://www.tyrell-innovations-usa.com/

[Pedro Guimaraes]

Why would you need variable stereo base rig?


Really? I don't have the time or energy to get into this again....

I have personally helped developed single lens systems as well, dual lens prism systems, mirror boxes, dual lens systems for use on Phantom65 and Red cameras. There are a solution, but just one. One that requires more money and time to perfect.

Every solution for stereoscopic content creation I've ever researched or used has some kind of problem.

Ultimately to shoot a feature with lots of different situations/shots we will more than likely for a long time be looking at some sort of beamspitter. Especially if you can only choose one rig. To do it right, you need at least a few kinds of systems to cover all the situations/shots with the appropriate tool.

Variable IO is vital to shooting anything 3D in a timely manner, properly and effectively.

Seams like you have your mind made up and I'm certainly not trying to convince you. Just expressing my opinion.

Good luck with your endeavors, you have good info on your site and interesting products and I don't mean any disrespect by my post. Just my opinion.

[icester]

Really? I don't have the time or energy to get into this again....

I have personally developed single lens systems as well, dual lens prism systems, mirror boxes, dual lens systems for use on Phantom65 and Red cameras. There are a solution, but just one. One that requires more money and time to perfect.


Well, if you could give an example where would one use it in this production
then may be we all could benefit from your experience.
Also have you ever built an OFF-AXIS lens system with dual RED cameras?

Please advice.

Mathew Orman

For state of the art stereoscopic vision systems with: eyestrain free, distortion free and realistic immersion stereoscopic experience contact me
at:
http://www.tyrell-innovations-usa.com/

[Paul Watt]

I'd like to hear from anyone that has used a 3DFactory Beamsplitter too.

[Leonard Coster]

I have shot with 2 reds side by side. This produces a minimum IOD of about 150mm with cables and stuff - 130 if you squash it...

You have to be very careful how close you get to things - this was used where nothing got closer to camera than about 50m so we were ok in terms of divergence limits.
I calculated a roundness factor of about 1.6 given the focal length and distances involved and there was definitely some apparent miniaturisation (dolls-housing effect) supporting this!

It's not useful for general production as you will very quickly break the illusion if you cannot get smaller IOD's than that.

eg
Nearest object in FoV - say 5m
Furthest - say 50m
Convergence point at say 7m
Red one cameras and focal length of 18mm

- requires and IOD of 41.3mm for roundness factor of 1
We can use up to 68.5mm before breaking coherence - for a roundness of 1.66

This allows for my final screen size, about 5% blowup in post for correction, 65mm max BG divergence on a 10m screen and an overall divergence limit of 3% - typical for my shooting.

This is not an unusual setup in terms of distances so unfortunately we are stuck with mirrors for a while yet - smoke is optional :-)

That's why I built mirror rigs in the first place.
I'll have them at NAB this year if you want to see.

Cheers,

[Joey R.]

You know I love you Ketch - but I have throw the BULLSHIT towel down on this comment. My guys can build the Quasar rig from everything in cases - with two RED ONEs - re-track the lenses - calibrate lens motors - adjust and lock alignment - in less than 30 - 40 minutes. So ... not sure who is telling you - or causing you to take "about a half a day" .... but you might want to adjust their day rate.

I did it for Sundance. I had literally 30 minutes from pelicans to setup in under 30 minutes all by my lonesome. Good thing Ted S. was there with the EPIC so not a lot of people were watching me sweat like a pig while I watched the clock tick down. Of course I've done it a few hundred times so...

[Joey R.]

The particular about the half day set up for the ET Quasar rig was something I was told from one of the guys at ET!! You know I have been researching for "Rape of a Beauty" S3D shoot, and ET was one of my first stops.

This is what I always tell people to budget for. Its really worse case scenario. Cameras and lenses and FIZ sometimes dont like to play nice.

[KETCH ROSSi]

He he, as I said to Mark, Joey, I'm very happy to understand that is worst case, and that this can be done that fast!!

Just wish, that next time, I'm told both scenarios, as to then relate the correct info, and not have some one tell me I'm wrong or BSing people :~) when trying to give info, even so I should have only do as I always do, only talk from personal proven experience.

Obviously hiring some of the best in the biz always helps speed things up, and hopefully we will be able to hire some of the best available crew :~)

[Shawn Booth]

Welcome to Hawaii! Which production are you on?

Could point you to the right 3D guy if needed...

[chuck colburn]

icester,

I'm not sure what you mean by the statement that there are no "true 3-d rigs for the RED camera" Paradise f/x has built a "rig" specificly for the RED camera. It includes microwave control of all functions.


http://www.paradisefx.com/pages/services/production.html

[Michael Hardwick]

I'd like to hear from anyone that has used a 3DFactory Beamsplitter too.

Hi Paul -

I recently used the 3D Film Factory beamsplitter for a small project.

Built it with Reds and the 18-50 zooms, and then with Sony EX3's which we ultimately shot with. Keith Collea was our steroegrapher.

As you probably know the I/O and convergence settings are manual and done by hand. I/O adjustment isn't bad as long as you create a scale during prep.

Convergence adjustment... well it needs work, as it is something that is done very often, and simply loosening a bolt and nudging the cameras around trying to nail convergence is not quick or convenient.

Biggest beef is that there is no provision for adjusting for any vertical offset issues. They really need to include some fine adjustments for X and Y adjustment of at least one camera on that rig. The word from the manufacturer is that any sort of offset issues are handled by adjusting the angle of the beamsplitter mirror... which frankly opens up other cans of worms.

Build quality is good for the price, and we were able to maintain our zero alignment throughout the day, as we moved around from dolly to sticks, and from Interior to Exterior.

A note of caution, and perhaps a request to the manufacturers. The beamsplitter glass is held in place by several allen screws that just plain old tighten up against the glass itself, at least that's how it came from our rental house. Uhhh, well if you accidentally tighten one screw too tight, you end up with a busted mirror to the tune of $440. C'mon now, there's got to be a better way than that.

Just my limited experience with it.

Pedro's right - you get what you pay for.

Best wishes

Michael Hardwick - Director of Photography/ Steadicam Operator
IATSE 600 1st AC

[chuck colburn]

Yeah Michael, point contact of the cap screw against the beam splitter is bad thing. I can think of a half a dozen simple ways to mount that piece of float glass.

[Pedro Guimaraes]

$400 for the mirror? That makes me cringe....I've seen $4000 mirror that are not that good at all. $400 makes me worried.

Would love to analyze the images from that rig to see what exactly you are compromising on.

Don't overlook the splitter Mirror, this has tremendous impact on you imaging. $40,000 lens looking thru low quality glass can produce poor results. Not making any assumptions!!!!! Just saying I have seen what cheap mirror do to images and what difference expensive beam mirrors can have.

Testing is the only way to tell. In fact, comparative testing is the best way.

But the golden rule will usually apply.......you get what you pay for. Somtimes the compromise is acceptable for certain projects. But would be good to have hard DATA.

would love to setup a shootout with all the beam splitters..... ;)

[chuck colburn]

The beam splliters on Steve Hines 3D rigs are made from water white float glass which is an off the shelf item (although he does pick the pieces himself) and they perform just fine. An optically ground piece of glass even if it was just flame or felt polished would be very very costly and so far as I could tell offered no noticeable improvment.
But as Pedro says, testing is the key. Then again it's always the rule before a shoot begins.

[gbalaji]

S3D needs patience, vision, script for 3D and finally and not least the right people who are expertise in the field. You can purchase 3D rig, but finding right 3D team is a challenge.

You can visit our website to know more about ourself and more S3D information from www.netmoviebank.com

Make sure you visit the 3D commercial link - http://www.netmoviebank.com/3dcommercial.html

[icester]

icester,

I'm not sure what you mean by the statement that there are no "true 3-d rigs for the RED camera" Paradise f/x has built a "rig" specificly for the RED camera. It includes microwave control of all functions.


http://www.paradisefx.com/pages/services/production.html

Just for the start, the true S3D rig has off-axis lens geometry.
All stereo vision geometry constrains are defined by
projection geometry of targeted media.
S3D scene captured with s3D rig must be projected
with 1:1 scale and correct distance from viewer.
All scenes in Avatar have mismatch between camera and projection geometry resulting in lack of realistic immersion and viewer discomfort.
Putting together two cameras without full understanding
of human stereo vision will not deliver a true S3D rig.

Mathew Orman

For state of the art stereoscopic vision systems with: eyestrain free, distortion free and realistic immersion stereoscopic experience contact me
at:
http://www.tyrell-innovations-usa.com/