Why I think RED Ray hasn't been released...

[Joseph Hutson]

EPIC's first stage was to be out in December. They were expecting EPIC stages 2-4 to be in full progression by March so RED Ray would have the demand. Since this demand isn't there, they are saving the "punch" for a little bit later when 5K is adopted more widely.

With "drama" that has apparently come up in the last 3 months, why would RED want to jump the gun and release RED Ray prematurely?

Thoughts?

[Elsie N]

I think the reason Red 4k hasn't been released is because RED figured out early on that the future of the codec was not as an optical disk, but as distribution format. That's the reason for the new movie studio, IMO, and probably behind closed doors plans are being made to marry an inexpensive projector that will travel easily and will deliver enormously. Red 4k, again IMO, will be the revolution in WATCHING movies in the very near future. It probably has nothing to do with any of the other products such as camera etc. It has to do with bringing all the pieces together and getting bulletproof patents, etc. in place.

[MichaelHalsell]

Or more accurately, none of us know.

[Elsie N]

Or more accurately, none of us know.
Even more accurately... a handful of people at RED knows and so far, they ain't tellin'.

[Aaron Newsome]

Other than RED, what manufacturers have announced plans to manufacture redray hardware? What would be a reasonable number of companies before theaters would consider this technology? Would 1 be enough?

[Noah Kadner]

Other than RED, what manufacturers have announced plans to manufacture redray hardware? What would be a reasonable number of companies before theaters would consider this technology? Would 1 be enough?

I haven't heard of any other companies planning to support REDray- though I don't see why that would be necessary or in keeping with RED's standard gameplans.

Noah

[David Rasberry]

If RedRay is essentially a software compression codec, why would it require dedicated hardware? How about a something like Cuda implementation for any Nvidia equipped computer?

[Noah Kadner]

Well what RED initially displayed was a disc playing hardware unit. Though I'd tend to agree at this stage in the game a software codec would make more sense.

Noah

[Andrew Gentle]

Well what RED initially displayed was a disc playing hardware unit. Though I'd tend to agree at this stage in the game a software codec would make more sense.

Noah

It was always going to be a codec which played on a specialised hardware unit. Optical media is only one possible form of delivery. Look at the specs of Red Ray Pro (http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=517013&postcount=5): gigabit and wireless ethernet, eSata and FW800, two 'front storage slots' and compact flash support. This one device would be able to play Red Ray data from virtually any digital storage format currently in popular use.
In addition, there's no reason why the same codec used in the hardware could also be used in computer software, providing the processor of the computer was fast enough to decode it.

[michael zaletel]

The delay is likely due to very complex patent or trademark conflicts. There are tons of pre-existing patents involved in a product like that and a lot at stake so RED's attorneys are likely dotting their i's and crossing their t's carefully. Also, if there's a soda called Mountain Dew or Dr. Pepper, trademark case law makes it pretty hard to come out with a soft drink called Mountain Blue or Ms. Pepper.

I'm just sayin'

-michael zaletel

[Joseph Hutson]

The delay is likely due to very complex patent or trademark conflicts. There are tons of pre-existing patents involved in a product like that and a lot at stake so RED's attorneys are likely dotting their i's and crossing their t's carefully. Also, if there's a soda called Mountain Dew or Dr. Pepper, trademark case law makes it pretty hard to come out with a soft drink called Mountain Blue or Ms. Pepper.

I'm just sayin'

-michael zaletel

You may have a point there. Being as they are supposedly calling RED Ray something like "RED 4K" now...

[Steven Caesare]

It hasn't been releaesed yet because of the gestation period of the Magic Pixie.

-sc

PS- Latest comments from Red indicate that the solution is no longer going to use optical discs... solid state media and HDD's would be the assumption. And perhaps streaming.

[Aaron Newsome]

I haven't heard of any other companies planning to support REDray- though I don't see why that would be necessary or in keeping with RED's standard gameplans.

Noah

I have no idea how the inner workings of movie theaters work but I was just curious if they would invest in projection hardware / software and technology technology that is only available from one company. I'd like to see how this one plays out.

[Jeremy Neish]

One thing I'm curious about, what about an interactive menu layer? I've not heard anything about that.

Personally I'd like to see them adopt the old HD-DVD interactive menu language HDi, it was a solid implementation, based around existing HTML/CSS standards and was easy to develop for. Whatever they do they MUST avoid the nightmare that is Blu-ray authoring, a horrible mix of Java and proprietary crap with far too little memory available for menus.

Heck I'd be pretty happy with an enhanced DVD standard, with a bit more logic (if, thens, etc) and more memory and 24bit menu overlays, but keeping same basic concepts.

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah I've yet to see anything resembling a menu but I'm sure they're thinking about it. Personally I don't care as much about authoring as I do a simple playback menu and a disc is a single movie only. My believe is that the intention of RED-Ray has always been a simple and portable means of distribution, not a new Blu-ray or DVD format to retail with.

Noah

[Stephen Gentle]

Yeah I've yet to see anything resembling a menu but I'm sure they're thinking about it. Personally I don't care as much about authoring as I do a simple playback menu and a disc is a single movie only. My believe is that the intention of RED-Ray has always been a simple and portable means of distribution, not a new Blu-ray or DVD format to retail with.

True. I wouldn't be worried (or surprised) if the only menu was one to select a clip on the media.

[Hrvoje Simic]

It most likely isn't just one thing.

Also, developing and/or releasing new and advanced technology ahead of time can lead to things like platform support developers being caught with their pants down. Leading the pack often means having to wait the pack to catch up. There's no rush, anyway..

[Jeremy Torrie]

I'm not sure I agree with 'not being in a rush'.

If you take what is out there now for broadcast...basically HDSR is it for tape. HDCam is old 8 bit technology that most CDN broadcasters won't even accept. I haven't had to generate an SP in 2 years.

Being able to finish a project in 2K+ and then have a way to master it with the ability to output picture and sound to send to a post house that has HDSR for a downconversion would be fantastic. The SR is still 80,000+ with all the boards.

Even if Red Ray/4K is 1/10th the price and you add a Red Rocket, you're still potentially way ahead...and I'm referring to TV post work mostly here.

There is a huge gap and I would love to see something in action at NAB if possible.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm not sure I agree with 'not being in a rush'.

If you take what is out there now for broadcast...basically HDSR is it for tape. HDCam is old 8 bit technology that most CDN broadcasters won't even accept. I haven't had to generate an SP in 2 years.

Being able to finish a project in 2K+ and then have a way to master it with the ability to output picture and sound to send to a post house that has HDSR for a downconversion would be fantastic. The SR is still 80,000+ with all the boards.

Even if Red Ray/4K is 1/10th the price and you add a RED Rocket™™, you're still potentially way ahead...and I'm referring to TV post work mostly here.

There is a huge gap and I would love to see something in action at NAB if possible.

Well ... the missing link here IMHO is an affordable 4K display.

The more you look at RED originated content - the more your standards of image fidelity go up. I actually HATE watching 35mm prints now. Even if the film is shot on 35mm - I'll now take extra effort to see it projected digitally.

We are talking to a network about to launch a 3D channel in less than 8 weeks about producing content - and it is PAINFUL to see 4K 3D down to 1080i (WHY are we still broadcasting interlaced!!!) - in side-by-side format (think 50% of horizontal resolution) - then CRUSHED TO HOLY HELL in MPEG2. And yes - this network is looking at the option of a MPEG4 stream in a MPEG2 wrapper, etc. - but when these 3D channels launch - ya better lower your expectation with respect to image quality.

Sorry for the rant - but for the love of God - gimme my RED 4K !!!! And gimme 3D out of my RED RAY PRO player!!

[MichaelHalsell]

Any emerging 4K display technologies that anyone is aware of?

[Hrvoje Simic]

Being able to finish a project in 2K+ and then have a way to master it with the ability to output picture and sound to send to a post house that has HDSR for a downconversion would be fantastic. The SR is still 80,000+ with all the boards.

Even if Red Ray/4K is 1/10th the price and you add a RED Rocket™™™™, you're still potentially way ahead...and I'm referring to TV post work mostly here.


If I'm not mistaken, Red Ray is a highly compressed delivery media player. Any further downconversions should be done from a master.

[Stephen Gentle]

We are talking to a network about to launch a 3D channel in less than 8 weeks about producing content - and it is PAINFUL to see 4K 3D down to 1080i (WHY are we still broadcasting interlaced!!!) - in side-by-side format (think 50% of horizontal resolution) - then CRUSHED TO HOLY HELL in MPEG2. And yes - this network is looking at the option of a MPEG4 stream in a MPEG2 wrapper, etc. - but when these 3D channels launch - ya better lower your expectation with respect to image quality.

Wow, sounds terrible. Even HD television here makes me cringe - like you said, it's still interlaced (what idiot let interlacing be part of any HD standard, I don't know...), and then squeezed into a DVB-T transmission stream in crappy MPEG2 with one or two SD channels. I don't have cable (in Australia we have a pretty good selection of content free to air - about 12 different channels, which is plenty if you watch as little TV as I do).

I think the main problems are that they're using MPEG2, and that you are allowed to have SD channels. I would much rather that there were only good quality progressive HD H.264 channels, and that they were downscaled in the set-top box to 576i if you wanted SD. That would stop the large amount of bandwidth we waste having duplicate channels for HD and SD...

Hopefully in three years my RED 4K player will be able to download content on-demand and downscale for my 1080p TV.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I think the main problems are that they're using MPEG2, and that you are allowed to have SD channels. I would much rather that there were only good quality progressive HD H.264 channels, and that they were downscaled in the set-top box to 576i if you wanted SD. That would stop the large amount of bandwidth we waste having duplicate channels for HD and SD...


They would also much rather like having only good quality progressive, but the existing broadcasting infrastructure, which is uncapable of 1080p (not all, some is) needs to pay off first. Plus the fact that a large portion of broadcast content is not progressive in the first place.

[ericyoung]

It hasn't been releaesed yet because of the gestation period of the Magic Pixie.

-sc

PS- Latest comments from Red indicate that the solution is no longer going to use optical discs... solid state media and HDD's would be the assumption. And perhaps streaming.

Where did you see those comments Steven?

Thanks
Eric

[Jeremy Torrie]

I'm fairly certain Fox HD is all 720P, and possibly ABC as well. And isn't HDSR in 4:2:2 recording the compression ratio 2.7/1, and in 4:4:4 recording the compression ratio is 4.2/1 as it is?

Based on Jim's recent comments about RC 250 it would make sense that Red Ray is going to be able to handle that throughput.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I forgot or overlooked that Red Ray should be able to play files from various RED media types and even raw r3d. My bad.

As far as further downconversion to external hardware is concerned, I'm guessing this is preconditioned with ability to output master as r3d.

[Steven Caesare]

Where did you see those comments Steven?

Thanks
Eric

Eric, I can't find them via search at the moment, but it was mentioned a while back by one of the Red boys... about the same time as the name change to Red4K IIRC.

On edit: Found it- http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=553196&postcount=273

-sc

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

EPIC's first stage was to be out in December. They were expecting EPIC stages 2-4 to be in full progression by March so RED Ray would have the demand. Since this demand isn't there, they are saving the "punch" for a little bit later when 5K is adopted more widely.

With "drama" that has apparently come up in the last 3 months, why would RED want to jump the gun and release RED Ray prematurely?

Thoughts?

Lol... Drama is a name of a camera system being developed in Greece.

I scratched my head for a few sceonds until I got it.

:biggrin5:

[Andrew Gentle]

Drama is a name of a camera system being developed in Greece.

Really? Any links to that? Searching is difficult with a name like that.

Here's a thread on DVXuser: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=132566 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=132566)

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

There was a thread with extensive discussion with Otis on DVInfo.net and he has an account on DVXUser too as you can see.

It's a 1080/24p/12bit camera, according to Otis and is a very different system from Scarlet, but definitely sounds like something worth considering, also with a very competitive price.

Message Otis there and ask some questions if you want more info.

[Andrew Gentle]

Thanks, Pietro. He's kept it pretty quiet, hasn't he!

[Jeremy Torrie]

The announcement of the new Sony SR memory card is interesting...I think it could gain a lot of traction being able to handle 4K...provided you can in fact write back to one of these cards. SR is hugely respected among broadcasters and QC folks for distribution.

This was being whispered about among certain engineers more than a year ago...I was asking about shelf life of an SRW-5800 and they said, "Don't"...this is coming.

It probably has Jim's attention now, as depending on the price it could be a competitor to Red Ray for mastering. But knowing Sony it will be about 10x the cost. Though it does push the envelope!

[Graeme Nattress]

REDRay data at 4k 15mbps, for distribution will fit on a 50¢ DVD, or a USB stick. It's pretty hard to beat that for your quality / dollar ratio. When people see the demos at the studio, they can't really believe what they're seeing. Quite funny really. 4k doesn't have to cost $$$. We've proven that.

Graeme

[Jeremy Torrie]

Graeme -do you believe RedRay is a 'masterable' format? Was this the intent of the product? Is it a master format that could be used to generate broadcast deliverables?

[Graeme Nattress]

REDRay is for distribution.

Graeme

[Tim Whitcomb]

REDRay is for distribution.

Graeme

Music to my (eyes) ears

[Tim Hole]

I lived in a cinema environment for over eight years and know very well it takes a long time for things to change. There is little interest unless it is financially driven (obviously). General managers and cinemas really don't care how something is shown as long as people come through the doors. They are only just installing the DLP 2k projectors who would they change...well we know but they couldnt give a shit as long as the competitors don't have it, and it is drawing people away from them.

I think the important people to get RED 4K to is the independents (art-house) who will be seriously stung by digital cinema. They are assisted in the UK but still struggle. The problem then is a relatively affordable 4K projector.

[James Kirst]

I lived in a cinema environment for over eight years and know very well it takes a long time for things to change. There is little interest unless it is financially driven (obviously). General managers and cinemas really don't care how something is shown as long as people come through the doors. They are only just installing the DLP 2k projectors who would they change...well we know but they couldnt give a shit as long as the competitors don't have it, and it is drawing people away from them.

I think the important people to get RED 4K to is the independents (art-house) who will be seriously stung by digital cinema. They are assisted in the UK but still struggle. The problem then is a relatively affordable 4K projector.


We really want a RED RAY(or whatever it will be called when it is shipped) at the Downtown Independent. Even if we can't project 4k(right now at least) it will solve so many problems we now have with films being delivered in dozens of different codecs and billions of parametric combinations within those codecs. If we could tell clients "just send us a usb stick with RED4K" it would cure so many headaches instantly...

[KETCH ROSSi]

Well ... the missing link here IMHO is an affordable 4K display.

The more you look at RED originated content - the more your standards of image fidelity go up. I actually HATE watching 35mm prints now. Even if the film is shot on 35mm - I'll now take extra effort to see it projected digitally.

We are talking to a network about to launch a 3D channel in less than 8 weeks about producing content - and it is PAINFUL to see 4K 3D down to 1080i (WHY are we still broadcasting interlaced!!!) - in side-by-side format (think 50% of horizontal resolution) - then CRUSHED TO HOLY HELL in MPEG2. And yes - this network is looking at the option of a MPEG4 stream in a MPEG2 wrapper, etc. - but when these 3D channels launch - ya better lower your expectation with respect to image quality.

Sorry for the rant - but for the love of God - gimme my RED 4K !!!! And gimme 3D out of my RED RAY PRO player!!


I could not agree with you more, Mark.. but its still ways away.. unfortunately, it tucked long in off for HD, but I wish nothing more then for it all to go 4K!!



REDRay is for distribution.

Graeme

BINGO!!