So... How comfortable is the shoulder mount?

[Jaime Vallés]

Just curious. :pirate:

[Brook Willard]

A hell of a lot more comfortable than it was at NAB.

The NAB prototypes were heavier, had hard rubber shoulder pads and *somewhat* awkward ergonomics as compared to the shipping model. I had the opportunity to operate the NAB prototype handheld for roughly 10-15 minutes while walking through a casino. Don't get me wrong - it wasn't *bad* and my experience was hardly in-depth enough to make any truly accurate judgments... but it wasn't mindblowing. It was still pretty sweet.
http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/nabhandheld.jpg

Some of the awkwardness of this setup comes from the fact that the handheld grips were too close to the body.

Both Evin and I played with the camera handheld for a while on Friday and Saturday. It's come a long way. The shoulder pad is softer rubber and is also quite a bit tackier [it'll hold onto your shoulder]. The camera balance we had in these shots was fine... but not great. The reason the balance was funny is because we had a GIANT LCD on the side, rather than an EVF.
http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/nowhandheld.jpg

I did some fast pans and average walking moves to get used to the feel. I've operated significantly less comfortable rigs, and only one that's more comfortable. I adore handheld operating, so I have a decent amount of experience in that department [though many will have more experience than I... and I'm sure they'll get their hands on the camera eventually].

The best part about it is that if something is uncomfortable... you only have to move it. Because it's a fully modular design, you're not locked into "the" handheld setup for the camera. Want to spread the handles? Bring them closer to your body? Move the shoulder pad backwards? Add more rear ballast? No problem. It will be very easy to get a perfectly balanced handheld rig.

With the giant LCD onboard, the camera's weight reminded me of a cross between an Arri 235 with 400' magazine or an Arri LT. For those curious, the 235 is the "more comfortable" camera I've operated, with the LT coming in just behind it.

The LT has a lot of rotational inertia. When you have to make a quick pan, you'll have to be ready to stop it. The 235 is so light that it's not really an issue... it'll point where you want it to. Our RED setup is right in between. It's got mass, but not LT mass. I haven't operated the new setup with the EVF, so I can't speak to how a "real" handheld setup will be. But with the gigantic LCD onboard? It still wasn't terrible.

The LCD made it feel as though we were operating with crutches. It's like when you operate an SR-3 handheld... it just feels like you're making excuses and building solutions to make it work. The LCD was our built solution/crutch. Awkward but functional.

With an EVF onboard, that'll change. Hopefully I'll get a chance to sit down with a camera and all the accessories at some point soonish... I'll come up with a report at that time. I can't wait to try it with all the trimmings.

At this point, if I was going to change one thing, it'd be the back of the shoulder pad:

http://homepage.mac.com/brookwillard/evinhandheld.jpg

As you can see here, the pad just kind of stops. Now I never had a problem with it slipping or feeling like it was going to fall off my shoulder... but I wish the back of the pad would wrap around a little more [think LT]. Remember, I don't have much experience with it yet, so maybe it really isn't an issue and I'm just trying to make it match what I'm used to... but hey. It is how most shoulder pads are designed [without a significant back wrap], so they aren't breaking rules. This is how I feel about most handheld systems.

But initial impressions? I dig it. Is that a fanboy impression or a real impression? I don't know yet. I need a full shooting day with it to figure that out.

[Jaime Vallés]

Excellent report, Brook! Really appreciate that. Do let us know how it feels with the EVF (or RED LCD) when you get a chance.

I'm looking at getting the RED Production Pack, but Zacuto (http://zacuto.com/) offers their version of a handheld system that looks very nice as well, and would most likely work great with RED. I'd love to read users opinions on the two.

[Fence sitter]

It looks like they waoud have been better with handles similar to Aaton or the SR where the camera sits on your palm. You basically hold the balance of the camera and can move the grip right back to the camera without feeling cramped.

Fence

[Bokes]

I have the Zacuto Rail system. Will it work with Red?

[Fence sitter]

I'd love to see how someone can reduce the camera to it's bare basics for hand held. Just some light weight rods, battery and viewfinder. I know you can add loads of stuff for full scale production rigging but can you strip it down and make it super light and compfy. Can you operate it without the shoulder piece, add an Aaton handle etc. Has someone been trying these configurations?

Fence

[grandpa it burns]

I had an idea I think might be valuable to the red team. I really think they should create a wheelchair mount. I am wheelchair bound and I really think it could be extremely beneficial to that demographic. Directors could use it too. Am I crazy, or am I on to something here?

[Joel Kaye]

Am I crazy, or am I on to something here?

Only partly crazy. ;-)

Wheelchair dollies have long been used by indiefilm makers even when they can walk just fine. Usually they do it handheld - at least every time I've ever seen it.

I think one option might be to buy a hi hat and try to rig that onto your wheelchair somehow if you don't want to go handheld.

This really isn't a RED specific issue. Custom grip companies such as Zacuto would be the ones to ask.

[grandpa it burns]

Only partly crazy. ;-)

Wheelchair dollies have long been used by indiefilm makers even when they can walk just fine. Usually they do it handheld - at least every time I've ever seen it.

I think one option might be to buy a hi hat and try to rig that onto your wheelchair somehow if you don't want to go handheld.

This really isn't a RED specific issue. Custom grip companies such as Zacuto would be the ones to ask.

I am in the wheelchair about 60% of the time and I can't stay on my feet for very long, so this would help me out a great deal. Currently I film mostly animals that are brought into a contained environments. We put down plywood, I handhold, then I have someone push me to get the pans I need. It works, but I really need something more stable that will give more more control and suspension dapening...the seems in the plywood give me trouble.

[Joel Kaye]

but I really need something more stable that will give more more control and suspension dapening...the seems in the plywood give me trouble.

The second you start talking about suspensions you're getting pretty complicated. They may hurt more than help if they aren't a steadicam.

I think your tripod head, in a hi hat, mounted on some aircraft aluminum, clamped to your wheelchair is one solution. I bet a grip rental place could build you that or something more ingenious. Maybe some of the grip wizards around here have seen a better solution.

[grandpa it burns]

The second you start talking about suspensions you're getting pretty complicated. They may hurt more than help if they aren't a steadicam.

I think your tripod head, in a hi hat, mounted on some aircraft aluminum, clamped to your wheelchair is one solution. I bet a grip rental place could build you that or something more ingenious. Maybe some of the grip wizards around here have seen a better solution.

Yahoo!!!First prototype!!! I got sick of waiting for the engineer, so I built the first prototype of my chair mounting system in my wood shop. The base would clamp the chair rail and then swivel. The point where it attaches to the camera would also swivel. This gives you a full range of motion plus you can lock it down at any point you like. What do you guys think? Remember this is just a prototype.

[David Battistella]

I've never seen a better use of Lee Valley Tools grandpa.

David

[Joel Kaye]

like. What do you guys think? Remember this is just a prototype.

I think if you're pulling a hoax like some of the guys around here think then you're going to an awful lot of trouble. :-)

Red's pretty heavy - so that'll need to support 25 lbs easily. Build a smooth hydraulic lift into that and you'll really have something.

Good Luck!