Sony is Dum

[Rick Darge]

My friend works for MTV and a Sony rep came in to speak today about their new fangled XDCAMS! Revolutionary stuff.. My friend approached the guy and asked what he thought of Red and from what I gathered, the Sony rep boiled it down to this..

1. The Red lenses are fisher price and won't hold up (hahahahaha)

2. The codec is untested (mwhahahaha)

3. It is a front-camera only.. (wtf?)


I don't mean to stir up the pot but damn, I can't wait to see them fry..

[Michael Schrengohst]

"The Red lenses are fisher price and won't hold up (hahahahaha) "

C&G

Ha, that new XDCAM looks Fisher Priced.

[Desert Rune]

Your title is misleading... it should read "Sony Rep is Dum".

I'm actually looking forward to buying their "Exmor" CMOS XDCAM EX camcorder. Their sensor is based off their newly introduced Alpha 700 dSLR so I'm very sure 1920x1080 coming out of the EX will blow away camcorders in the sub $10,000 range.

[Rick Darge]

The title is spot on. A Sony rep is still one of the many faces of Sony. They shouldn't be spouting off nonsense like that just because they fear tidal change.

[Jeremy Teman]

My friend works for MTV and a Sony rep came in to speak today about their new fangled XDCAMS! Revolutionary stuff.. My friend approached the guy and asked what he thought of Red and from what I gathered, the Sony rep boiled it down to this..

1. The Red lenses are fisher price and won't hold up (hahahahaha)

2. The codec is untested (mwhahahaha)

3. It is a front-camera only.. (wtf?)


I don't mean to stir up the pot but damn, I can't wait to see them fry..

Front-camera only?

[damonbots]

Ohhhh, I get it! The new XDCAMS have a rear camera for backing up safely while filming, like on my new Nissan. Imagine all the kids I'll back over with my REDONE.

[Gopher77]

I just shot a doc interviews and reenactments with an XDCAM on bluray disc. Had a set of Ziess digipriimes in front of it. I was not overwhelmed with the cameras opertion in any regard. Menus we're hard to navigate, I was always searching for the record button, several times I had to take my eye off of the eye piece and look to find the button. I could go on but why, when one word fixes all of it's short comings, RED.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I think the area that most people don't get is....
You are still shooting HDV. That is crappy MPEG
compression. And you can get horrible motion blur.
It just blows.

[GlennChan]

For narrative filmmaking, I don't think the XDCAM is that great a tool compared to Red.

However, there are some areas where XDCAM has a beautiful workflow.
A- It works great in SDI-based workflows. Instantaneous shuttling and frame accuracy makes online conforms much faster. Though the only people who'd do this is for lower-budget TV series (where you don't quite have the money for better picture quality).
B- For news organizations, a lot of them work off shared storage. The low bandwidth is very, very useful. You can have more people working off your shared storage, you can have more footage accessible, and there is less data to archive.
C- The XDCAM decks let you make dailies with TC burn-ins.
D- You also get the advantages of "tapeless" workflows... no log and capture.
E- XDCAM is somewhat reasonable for archival/storage.
F- Long recording times. (Unlike P2 where you have to swap cards often.)

Not all markets care about the absolute best image quality. And I think XDCAM will sell well to those markets.

[Lauri Kettunen]

I think the area that most people don't get is....
You are still shooting HDV. That is crappy MPEG
compression. And you can get horrible motion blur.
It just blows.

Well, many have akward experience with the marketing talks of big manufactures, and although RED is changing the industry, still perhaps we should not overreact and make overstatements.

I had the XL H1 and have to confess I was impressed how well the MPEG compression did work in practice. A priori this was my major concern, but then after storing the very same footages from the HD-SDI output directly in Cineform 4:2:2 files (with the Aja-Zena card) and to HDV tape, and comparing the results, I was surprised how well the MPEG compression functions in rather challenging situations. For example, I did once shoot skijumpers at the tip of the upper hill just two-three meters away from the track. The skijumpers speed at the hill table is about 90 km/h, i.e about 60 mph, and the shutter speed was the shortest 1/12000 sec to get sequences of images stopping the motion. So, this is a kind of ultimate test for the mpeg compression -just think you were shooting cars driving 90 km/h just 2-3 meters away. To keep the skijumpers in the frame I had to turn the camera really fast.

The results was amazingly good. The difference between the HD-SDI channel and HDV signals was not significant -nothing beyond you would expect in ordinary situations. Moreover, the HDV footages were usable and much better than say DV footages.

Summing up, I've quite never understood why some people say HDV is not genuine HD. Of course, the standard has its limitations and that's why I'm swapping to RED and would not even consider XDCAMs. Nevertheless, during the two years I shot with the XL H1 I never saw any horrible motion blur. Besides, has anybody thought that since wavelets work so well in "spatial" compression there is no reason why it would not work in "temporal" compression as well. So, once the first wave of Red revolution is gone, you never know what the big manufactures do next after they recover from the shock. Still, can't see how for example Sony could keep the prices of XDCAMs on the level they are at the moment.

[Yannick Hagman]

But isn't this design somewhat a canon XL H1 rip-off?

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

But isn't this design somewhat a canon XL H1 rip-off?

I fail to see the resemblance

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I think the area that most people don't get is....
You are still shooting HDV. That is crappy MPEG
compression. And you can get horrible motion blur.
It just blows.

MPEG IMX

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

3. It is a front-camera only.. (wtf?)



Didn´t you notice?

The Red One only shoots out of its front......:blush:

[whachusay]

Their sensor is based off their newly introduced Alpha 700 dSLR so I'm very sure 1920x1080 coming out of the EX will blow away camcorders in the sub $10,000 range. I agree with this.

[Jason Laramy]

sony is good for film students

[Jason Murphy]

sony is good for film students

Not if they actually want to shoot film. :whistling:

[Jason Murphy]

3. It is a front-camera only.. (wtf?)

I'm sure what the rep meant is that RED has a camera, but they don't offer a complete line of back-end hardware products to support a seamless workflow from shooting to broadcast. And on that point, he's technically correct (for now). Sony (and Panasonic) do both offer a complete solution from acquisition to broadcast, in a way that RED does not.

Of course, with Sony and Panasonic, you're going to get overpriced proprietary hardware with planned obsolescence frequently built into the products, and if you commit to one line, it'll most likely be incredibly difficult and costly to overhaul your workflow in the future, since you'll have put so much money into a complete Sony and/or Panasonic workflow.

The reality is that RED is still a relatively untested and unproven workflow, and for most risk-averse networks, having a tried and true workflow will be worth both the extra money and the lesser image quality. Hopefully this will change in time, but for now, it's just the way things are.

[GlennChan]

planned obsolescence frequently built into the products
I would respectfully disagree here... for example, betaSP decks are still in widespread use. They weren't built to become obsolete and make you buy new stuff. They are built to be workhorses.

And while the format is proprietary, it is designed to play well with other equipment. Sony decks can input/output SDI, composite, (sort of) component (depending on the model of your deck and what cards are in it).

It is not incredibly difficult and costly to overhaul your workflow. In a SDI-based facility you could swap in Panasonic gear if you'd like. You wouldn't have to change much at all. It speaks SDI so you just plug it in.

*P2, HDV (including Sony's HDV) are kind of exceptions. Sony's HDV initially had some workflow problems since it wasn't aimed at professional SDI-based environments. Though Sony did suggest that you dub to HDCAM.


having a tried and true workflow will be worth both the extra money and the lesser image quality.
I don't think it's really about risk but more about whether or not it works in their workflow. And there are many different workflows around. A lot of news facilities have DV-based workflows because it works and it's not ridiculously expensive. Recall that low bandwidth is a huge plus... Redcode is not industry standard like DV (or HDV) is and it's not low bandwidth.

Overall, you're looking at:
A- Does it work. *Standardized formats are more likely to work, though it comes down to implementation. e.g. MXF is a standard, but it often does not work.
B- How fast is the workflow.
C- How much does the entire workflow cost.
D- What quality do you get.

Some products hit those points, some products do not. And it depends what type of environment you are working in. HDV works well for some environments, and not so good for others.

[JohnF]

The simple fact that Sony didn't just release a XDCAM computer drive but instead try to make one purchase a rather expensive deck (a drive in a Sony box) was enough to put me off using XDCAM full stop.

I asked a Sony rep nicely (as at the original release of XDCAM I was quite impressed with the workflow potential) when they were releasing a drive? Afterall I just want to move the bloody data from the disk to the edit suite. The rep got nervous went and got his boss who tried to tell me, in that way which is so annoying, that I didn't want such a thing and no they won't be releasing one.

IMO if sony had released a XDCAM computer drive early on I'm pretty sure it would have killed tape based aquisition, or at least led to a total dominence of the ENG/ low budget EFP world. As it currently stands I can purchase far better systems such as RED rather going down an XDCAM path.

JohnF

[Jeremy Hughes]

I'm going to get an XDCAM, after hearing the truth about the RED ONE.

I'm want a to get a risk free Sony back-camera.

[GlennChan]

The simple fact that Sony didn't just release a XDCAM computer drive but instead try to make one purchase a rather expensive deck (a drive in a Sony box) was enough to put me off using XDCAM full stop.
Not everyone has the same needs as you.

--Not everyone is on a NLE that supports a file-based XDCAM workflow. So it doesn't help if you copy the files over, because the NLE may not support it. (e.g. old school Avids)
Most online editing systems do not support XDCAM files. (I think it's only FCP that does... and possibly Avid?)
--SDI output so you can ingest footage. 3:2 pulldown can be added. (Some people need it when they need to deal with multiple formats and want a 60i project, or need to do things over SD-SDI.)
--If you need to make dailies, the real-time downconversion and character/timecode burn-in are very handy.
--The XDCAM VTR can also act as a drive (FAM mode). Even if Sony were to make a drive (FAM mode only or whatever), the market is so small (compared to commodity computer parts) that the price would be relatively high anyways. And you still need to buy the camera, so a really cheap deck does not significantly lower the cost of the overall system.

Does XDCAM make sense for everyone? No. But it does make sense for particular markets.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm going to get an XDCAM, after hearing the truth about the RED ONE.

I'm want a to get a risk free Sony back-camera.
Just curious here - what TRUTH about the RED ONE have you "heard" and from WHO?

I can tell you anything you want to know about the RED ONE -

we have been shooting every day except ONE since we picked up our cameras a week ago - and we have been doing NON-STOP testing with TWO cameras (including test with a major studio) - so, I am just curious what you have HEARD is the "truth about the RED ONE"??

Horses for courses - I have ZERO issue with anyone buying an XDCAM - actually (unlike JIM) I PREFER as many people buy Sony cameras as possible - simply because they willl NOT be able to compete with us -

going head-to-head with 35mm today on a high-end commercial with one of the highest paid DP's in the commercial world -

again, just curious what you are "hearing" about the RED ONE -

[Jeremy Hughes]

Mark, I was kidding. I heard the "truth" from the Sony representative.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16413&postcount=18

[Rick Darge]

I heard it makes a good paperweight.

[JohnF]

Not everyone has the same needs as you.

--Not everyone is on a NLE that supports a file-based XDCAM workflow. So it doesn't help if you copy the files over, because the NLE may not support it. (e.g. old school Avids)
Most online editing systems do not support XDCAM files. (I think it's only FCP that does... and possibly Avid?)
--SDI output so you can ingest footage. 3:2 pulldown can be added. (Some people need it when they need to deal with multiple formats and want a 60i project, or need to do things over SD-SDI.)
--If you need to make dailies, the real-time downconversion and character/timecode burn-in are very handy.
--The XDCAM VTR can also act as a drive (FAM mode). Even if Sony were to make a drive (FAM mode only or whatever), the market is so small (compared to commodity computer parts) that the price would be relatively high anyways. And you still need to buy the camera, so a really cheap deck does not significantly lower the cost of the overall system.

Does XDCAM make sense for everyone? No. But it does make sense for particular markets.

Well for a start the "decks" as they are currently priced add a further 50% on top of the camera.

Sony has produced a plug-in/patch for Adobe Premiere Pro 2 for reading XDCAM files.

The MPEG system used is really only an acquisition format not a mastering format, or rather should not be a mastering format as it is quite a lossy 4:2:0.

I have to say a big "Whoops!" as whilst writing this post I've just found out that Sony have produced a USB2 and a firewire external XDCAM drive!!!
The USB version is known as the Sony PDW-U1. (and is quite cheap)

Funny really as if the Sony reps had mentioned this was coming just a 18months ago when I asked I would probably have put an order in!

But with RED on the scene at the price it is at my demands have changed! Bring on 4k!!!

How's that for a change of tack through a thread!?!

JohnF

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, I was kidding. I heard the "truth" from the Sony representative.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16413&postcount=18

LOL!!!!

I was like ... is this guy on CRACK!!!

I am so AMPED with the images from these cameras !!

[Tom Lowe]

My friend works for MTV and a Sony rep came in to speak today about their new fangled XDCAMS! Revolutionary stuff.. My friend approached the guy and asked what he thought of Red and from what I gathered, the Sony rep boiled it down to this..

1. The Red lenses are fisher price and won't hold up (hahahahaha)



Hahaha, this is very stupid. He was resorting to dissing the LENSES?... which basically no one has even tested or bought or used yet? Lame.

Nevermind that with Red you can rock $100K real 35mm cinema glass, unlike his amateur-night XDCAMs.

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Hahaha, this is very stupid. He was resorting to dissing the LENSES?... which basically no one has even tested or bought or used yet? Lame.

Nevermind that with Red you can rock $100K real 35mm cinema glass, unlike his amateur-night XDCAMs.

I think he's just stuck in this "Well our pro Zeiss lens cost a fortune so how can these Red lens stand up to that for a fraction of the cost"

I don't know about the quality of Red lenses, their probably amazing however Sony by no means provides you with well I don't know what "amateur-night XDCAMs" is supposed to mean but it doesn't sound good.

[Joe Carney]

There are a lot of people who can't afford a Red and the accesories needed to run it. The new XDCAM XE is going to be a fine camera for them since it creates true 1080x24p. It's SDI out is uncompressed 8bit 4:2:2 also.
Sony is including software to read the files on both Mac and Windows.

No, not a Red, but not a bad camera at all. For under 10K I think a lot more people will find plenty of "pro" uses for it.

Some of you are beginning to sound like the "film only" snobs.

[Tom Lowe]

Well I somehow doubt that whatever HD lenses Sony is putting on its XDCAMs could even be mentioned in the same breath with the best 35mm cine lenses, many of which cost more than the entire XDCAM itself.

[Rick Darge]

Just for the record. This rep was talking about the higher end XDCAMS, not the prosumer kind.