First Impressions

[Steve Sherrick]

Now that footage has rolled in, and uncompressed stills have been posted, I've been doing what everyone else is doing - grading and closely examining the images. Here's my initial take. Keep in mind that I do not have a camera yet and cannot claim to have seen anything projected in 4K other than what I saw at NAB. These observations are related to what has been posted over the past week.

1. Dynamic range. Very impressive for a digital camera. A lot of the images were underexposed and it was not difficult to reach in and grab that info back. Highlights seemed to be handled well. I did notice on a couple of the uncompressed TIFF stills that there were some white blocks that appeared to be "dead spots". Don't know if this was clipped or an artifact, but it did raise an eyebrow.

2. Resolution. As to be expected, these images have a lot of resolution, but I have to say that focus has been an issue on a number of the shots I have seen. 4K is going to require quite a bit of precision in that regard.

3. Compression. This is an area that I have some questions. I understand that Redcode Raw is a compressed format, but I'm trying to decipher what is Red compression and what is compression being added somewhere else along the way. To my eye there was noticeable compression in some of the car shots. I can certainly post some examples if it would help, but sometimes you can catch it in areas where there is blue sky or even in the road. I wasn't blowing up the shots too much to be able to notice it. I will admit, I'm looking at these images with a very critical eye so that I have a full understanding of what to expect from the camera. What I'm seeing may not really be a problem when the footage is in motion. I have 100% faith in Graeme and the rest of the team, so this is NOT an attack on their compression algorithm, but rather an inquiry into whethr I am seeing Red compression or something being generated from Red Alert or some other process.

4. Overall look. I like what you can do with the footage. Applying various grades was pretty easy and the footage didn't fall apart very much. Can't say the same for other formats. So I'm pretty excited about getting my hands on one in the next couple of months. I think the cameras are only going to get better as they implement firmware tweaks and we all learn how to use the cameras.

I want to extend a big thanks to all of those who have been doing tests. Can't tell you how much of a relief it is to see images being shot by a variety of people in all kinds of situations. It really is a huge help to me as I start to form an understanding of what this camera can offer.

Thanks!
Steve

[Jannard]

Steve... the compression engine of RED is evolving. We still have some fine tuning to do. The cameras are fine. Graeme and the team find ways to tweak the DSP everyday. Good news is that it is a simple Firmware update as the improvements are implemented.

Jim

[Seung Han]

My first impression about the images by the first 25 is that I am really happy and excited this company has built this camera at this price point. As a filmmaker having gone through the frustrating process of development with studios, I think it is incredibly empowering that this camera exists for us indie filmmakers to have access to tools to compete with the big boys on a more level field.

I am fully aware that there is much more to a feature project in terms of budget than camera rental and film stock/processing, but I think this a huge step in giving creative people access to equipment able to produce startling images for the big screen.

I wrote this before, and I know this to be true now from personal experience in dealing with studios. They will rather fund crap that looks good than challenging innovative stories that look questionable. So, what I hope is that we see more personal groundbreaking stories like the films by John Cassavetes but with undeniable quality images.

Good script, inspired actors, small crew, real locations, a few lights and the RED...

[Obin Olson]

3 Cheers!

[G.A. Kokes]

I wrote this before, and I know this to be true now from personal experience in dealing with studios. They will rather fund crap that looks good than challenging innovative stories that look questionable. So, what I hope is that we see more personal groundbreaking stories like the films by John Cassavetes but with undeniable quality images.

Good script, inspired actors, small crew, real locations, a few lights and the RED...

This is so true. I'm ready for some good engaging entertainment, shot well on a RED!

As mentioned in the opening post, focus has been an issue with quite a few of the shots, however that is to be expected. Many here have not shot with 35mm before and coming from 2/3" or 1/3" chips, this is a big change.

Cheers,
G

[David Battistella]

Now that footage has rolled in, and uncompressed stills have been posted, I've been doing what everyone else is doing - grading and closely examining the images. Here's my initial take. Keep in mind that I do not have a camera yet and cannot claim to have seen anything projected in 4K other than what I saw at NAB. These observations are related to what has been posted over the past week.

1. Dynamic range. Very impressive for a digital camera. A lot of the images were underexposed and it was not difficult to reach in and grab that info back. Highlights seemed to be handled well. I did notice on a couple of the uncompressed TIFF stills that there were some white blocks that appeared to be "dead spots". Don't know if this was clipped or an artifact, but it did raise an eyebrow.

2. Resolution. As to be expected, these images have a lot of resolution, but I have to say that focus has been an issue on a number of the shots I have seen. 4K is going to require quite a bit of precision in that regard.

3. Compression. This is an area that I have some questions. I understand that Redcode Raw is a compressed format, but I'm trying to decipher what is Red compression and what is compression being added somewhere else along the way. To my eye there was noticeable compression in some of the car shots. I can certainly post some examples if it would help, but sometimes you can catch it in areas where there is blue sky or even in the road. I wasn't blowing up the shots too much to be able to notice it. I will admit, I'm looking at these images with a very critical eye so that I have a full understanding of what to expect from the camera. What I'm seeing may not really be a problem when the footage is in motion. I have 100% faith in Graeme and the rest of the team, so this is NOT an attack on their compression algorithm, but rather an inquiry into whethr I am seeing Red compression or something being generated from Red Alert or some other process.

4. Overall look. I like what you can do with the footage. Applying various grades was pretty easy and the footage didn't fall apart very much. Can't say the same for other formats. So I'm pretty excited about getting my hands on one in the next couple of months. I think the cameras are only going to get better as they implement firmware tweaks and we all learn how to use the cameras.

Thanks!
Steve

Steve,

I have been piling through these posts over the past couple of months and it's my impression that the RED team are "on it". I have been so impressed by the fact that every person in the company has visited these forums and genuinely listen to (and very often respond to the concerns presented.

The other very cool thing is that the company seems set up to deal with anything and everything very quickly. The example that blows me away is that they had some heat issues in Spain and within weeks had the body re-designed. I can not imagine anyone in this game that would even dream about accomplishing that.

I look at a camera like this as I do any emerging technology. It's only going to keep getting better. RED's approach to the market is excellent, responding with what professionals need today and trying to foresee what they might need. That's customer service.

On your points:
1. Dynamic Range (i saw those dead spots too, but they are not consistant between frames so I think the camera is so sharp it's capturing the most finite stuff)
2. There are plans for a "magic focus" which I am sure we will see in the next few months. The EVF will also be enabled and might be better than an LCD for critical focus.
3. the compression scheme will only get better.
4. You bet. RED footage will give Directors and DP's tremendous control over the final look of their image. Think of how easy "Oh, Brother where art thou" would have been, if shot on RED.

David

[Joel Kaye]

You bet. RED footage will give Directors and DP's tremendous control over the final look of their image. Think of how easy "Oh, Brother where art thou" would have been, if shot on RED.


You mean a million dollars cheaper but looking pretty much the same? Yeah, there's about to be a lot of low budget stuff that looks that good. but has crappy stories, acting and production value. (sorry, couldn't resist):bleh:

[David Battistella]

but has crappy stories, acting and production value. (sorry, couldn't resist):bleh:

The best low budget films have good stories and great actors. RED only gives people the opportunity to fill out the rest.

David

[JustinGD]

there's about to be a lot of low budget stuff that looks that good. but has crappy stories, acting and production value. (sorry, couldn't resist):bleh:

And I can't wait to make some of the worst! but maybe after a few, I'll make something amazing? who knows?

But speaking on behalf of the poor inexperienced indie crowd, we can't wait. Story's, acting and production value are important. But Camera quality is too, and now there is one less thing we have to worry about, and we can just concentrate on the other three.

Fellow Rookies, lets get ready to make some crappy movies that look great!

Maybe some of our movies will only be a little bit crappy, and we can show these pro's what we've been hiding behind our HVX's. Good luck.

[Graeme Nattress]

One of the "nice" things about how we're working is that when we change something in the compression path (as we have done a number of times) we put a note in the metadata so that the end software still knows how to decode it. That means, as we improve things, as Jim says, with a simple firmware upgrade, the software (upgraded) can decode old and new files alike.

As decode software improves (as it has done a lot since the first footage for IBC last year) because you shot raw, you can take advantage of that improvement.

So yes, we see things and we're working on stuff. Look at other compression schemes which have laid static for years.....

Graeme

[dillont]

/end lurk mode

Howdy,

I'm of the impression that the RED camera is such a fine tool, that it will become a more complex beast to work with than what you're used to. There are inherent creative demands that will be placed upon a person used to working on 1/3 chips. It will demand more time and care to get a beautiful image.

The RED camera is light years beyond what has been capable in film thus far.

It's been an honor watching one of my life long dreams come true, and to be able to learn from the people (and talk to the creator) who are making it happen. Thank you for the front row seat!!

Dillon

[David Battistella]

And I can't wait to make some of the worst! but maybe after a few, I'll make something amazing? who knows?

But speaking on behalf of the poor inexperienced indie crowd, we can't wait. Story's, acting and production value are important. But Camera quality is too, and now there is one less thing we have to worry about, and we can just concentrate on the other three.

Fellow Rookies, lets get ready to make some crappy movies that look great!

Maybe some of our movies will only be a little bit crappy, and we can show these pro's what we've been hiding behind our HVX's. Good luck.

Justin,

I'm in TO as well, PM me if you are interested, as we are trying to get a few folks together.

David

[Joel Kaye]

The best low budget films have good stories and great actors. RED only gives people the opportunity to fill out the rest.


Yeah you're right. Hey, I'm a big believer that we're going to see a lot more good low budget content in the coming years and RED will be a giant part of it. I'd liken it to digital photography and music. A lot more people trying, which leads to many more failures that build experience that will lead to future success.

Maybe we'll finally start seeing stories without stars that getting exposure. If they get hot on the Internet and they are shot on RED they could be picked up and go theatrical. I bet it'll happen. My hat's in the ring too.

[Rick Darge]

Everything is changing.. Always.

[Florian Stadler]

Is the Red team planning to add a feature ala Dalsa Origin, where you can zoom into the picture full 4K on an additional monitor, so the operator can still see the normal picture, while the AC can touch screen zoom into whatever detail he/she wants to see for critical focus? This was one of the most useful features that impressed me with the Origin. Would you mind sharing your plans? According to the many out of focus pictures I've seen I'm assuming this feature is not enabled yet?

[Zas]

One of the "nice" things about how we're working is that when we change something in the compression path (as we have done a number of times) we put a note in the metadata so that the end software still knows how to decode it. That means, as we improve things, as Jim says, with a simple firmware upgrade, the software (upgraded) can decode old and new files alike.

As decode software improves (as it has done a lot since the first footage for IBC last year) because you shot raw, you can take advantage of that improvement.

So yes, we see things and we're working on stuff. Look at other compression schemes which have laid static for years.....

Graeme
I'm starting to realize now that the biggest benefit of Red isn't the image quality, the workflow or the price (although all those are tremendous), it's this, the desire to keep on improving.

[Steve Sherrick]

One of the "nice" things about how we're working is that when we change something in the compression path (as we have done a number of times) we put a note in the metadata so that the end software still knows how to decode it. That means, as we improve things, as Jim says, with a simple firmware upgrade, the software (upgraded) can decode old and new files alike.

As decode software improves (as it has done a lot since the first footage for IBC last year) because you shot raw, you can take advantage of that improvement.

So yes, we see things and we're working on stuff. Look at other compression schemes which have laid static for years.....

Graeme
Graeme, I am completely confident you guys are going to get to a really nice place with the compression and other tweaks. Know that your work on this project has been phenomenal the whole way through, and you've always done great work with your plugins.

The fact that you are continuing to push the limits even as the camera rolls into production is what has had me excited from the beginning. I know I have mentioned this a million times on the boards in the past, but you guys remind me a lot of the Sound Devices crew. Those guys are still tweaking firmware, listening to their customers years after the products have been released. They are commited to constantly improving their recorders.

I look forward to seeing the evolution, and I look forward to getting a camera in my hands in a couple of months.

Best,
Steve