To ProMist or not?

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I was talking to a colorist last week and he suggested I use a very slight ProMist on the Red. For handling near clipping high lights.

I thought I´m not so into the "David Hamilton and Young Girls in the South of France" look but he insisted on the advantages of a very subtle ProMist.

Any opinions from the pro´s?

Jochen

[Joel Kaye]

Too add to that - what about other low contrast filters... digicon etc.

[donatello b]

IMO if the colorist hasn't had any RED raw files to look at - then he's basing his info on past HD clips ?

as of today i would only use pro-mist if the project wanted that look ...
in general i would use filters based on their look not something to control clipping - i would use exposure, lighting to control clipping ...

i've been using tiffen Ultra cons for years ... also have sets of H&H low cons & double fogs, tiffen soft fx & black pro mist

[Joel Kaye]

as of today i would only use pro-mist if the project wanted that look ...

I guess the next question becomes can you dial up a similar look in post and gain more flexibility from shot to shot and scene to scene.

[Finner]

Comming from a person that was a film snob with a do everything in camera rather then post kind of attitude. After seeing what can be done with perfectly clean raw stills in post I would not use anything other then ND's in front of the lense. Post has come so far that it is really at the point where you can not tell if the effect was done in camera or in post if you do it right.

[Joel Kaye]

Comming from a person that was a film snob with a do everything in camera...Post has come so far that it is really at the point where you can not tell if the effect was done in camera or in post if you do it right.

Interesting post Finner. I met a compositing guru who had vast film experience working at Kodak and he was of the same opinion. I almost hate to repeat this... but he said DP's need to think as though they are data capture technicians whose job it is to give the post people the most image they can to work with.

I managed a camera store for years so I'm familiar with a lot of traditional photography tricks. I was just playing with a cheesy star filter plugin and I was thinking - wow this is actually way better than a real star filter. I can change the size, the color range, the blur and I can mask off most of the image to make the overall effect very subtle.

And so on.

I really do think RED owners are going to either become or hire post wizards who can get any look fast. Face it - we get raw images out of the camera. The distinction between "on set" and "post" is now a continuous blur.

[Matthew Rogers]

Comming from a person that was a film snob with a do everything in camera rather then post kind of attitude. After seeing what can be done with perfectly clean raw stills in post I would not use anything other then ND's in front of the lense. Post has come so far that it is really at the point where you can not tell if the effect was done in camera or in post if you do it right.

Really, the only filters you need anymore (and the only ones I am going to buy) are ND's and polarizers. I don't see the need for anything else.

Matthew

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

IMO if the colorist hasn't had any RED raw files to look at - then he's basing his info on past HD clips ?

Yes, that´s what he said (and that he´s ultra curious about RED)


as of today i would only use pro-mist if the project wanted that look ...
in general i would use filters based on their look not something to control clipping - i would use exposure, lighting to control clipping ...

His take is that the very subtle ProMist´s dont really generate that 70ies look, but that they make his job as a colorist (Scratch) quite a bit easier.

We´ll try all of that out before I have actors in front of the camera .....

Only 5 more weeks......

Thats so long.

Thanks for the input, guys.

Jochen

[Finner]

Really, the only filters you need anymore (and the only ones I am going to buy) are ND's and polarizers. I don't see the need for anything else.

Matthew

Oh ya I forgot a Pola for sure.

[Dominic Jones]

I'm in total agreement with Finner and macville - the Pro-mist advice relates to HD capture, and is good advice for that (I'll pretty much always carry light grade black and white pro-mists plus some low-cons on every HD shoot) but Red is a whole different ball-game...

For a Red filter package, I envisage taking out just ND's, ND grads and a Pola. Even then, I doubt the grads will come out very often, thanks to the high latitude of Red - once I've done a few shoots they might find themselves consigned to the shelf.

[Stu Maschwitz]

Do it in post (http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007/04/magic-bullet-looks.html). :)

-Stu

[Hans von Sonntag]

No Promist.

Sometime you will hate that look and you cannot alter it. Happend to me with stuff I once telecined with Promist in the gate of the Rank. Terrible look. Bad Early 90ies. Can make good stuff totally useless for your showreel...

Hans

[Ken Willinger]

The current projects I work on with both SD and HD, the editor pretty much insists on a clean image. I used to use a net behind the glass for some of the talking heads...no more. An 81B warming...no more. I rarely use any of the softening filters...occasionally a 1/3 black pro mist...no more.

It was amazing at NAB watching what the Color program in FCS2 can do. No need for enhancing filters, grad blues etc. It can all be done in post now. As long as you supply a nice clean image.

[Florian Stadler]

Adding an 1/8 Black Promist in camera can take off the edge of an overly sharp image and roll of the highlights nicely without adding any significant loss of sharpness. You would be hard pressed to justify rendering time in post for such a subtle and nice effect.
Also, if you're dealing with a lady that needs a little help in the wrinkle department, it will sublty ease out the transition of no diffusion to quite a bit of diffusion. Test for yourself though and good look filtering in post where the footage is quite likely out of your hands...
Adding a Promist in Telecine has the opposite effect of an in camera BPM (affecting the blacks, not the whites and is indeed a bit early 90's, especially Promist 1/2+)
Anyone with a Red in hand care to put one up to compare in the next few days?

[Kevin Halverson]

I was talking to a colorist last week and he suggested I use a very slight ProMist on the Red. For handling near clipping high lights.

I thought I´m not so into the "David Hamilton and Young Girls in the South of France" look but he insisted on the advantages of a very subtle ProMist.

Any opinions from the pro´s?

Jochen

This could easily be an indication that the footage from camera's that he has handled lacked an adequate OLPF. This is where something like a fractional ProMist would yield an advantage.

[Stu Maschwitz]

Adding an 1/8 Black Promist in camera can take off the edge of an overly sharp image and roll of the highlights nicely without adding any significant loss of sharpness. You would be hard pressed to justify rendering time in post for such a subtle and nice effect.

I agree with the first half of your statement, but there are two important things to remember when considering this:


Adding any diffusion on the lens is a bad idea if you plan on doing any visual effects work to the footage

All RED One footage will require substantial rendering in post, since it requires color correction. Adding a nice GPU-accelerated diffusion effect won't have a tremendous impact on this necessity.

-Stu

[David Mullen ASC]

As a DP, I've found too often that leaving things to post sometimes means that things like digital diffusion never get done, for various reasons. I've done many color-correction sessions in DaVinci suites where Defocusing is the only tool they have, which is not really true diffusion (which is the overlay of a soft image over a sharp image, not simply an image that is out of focus slightly), and then been told that there was no money to take the footage into the room that could actually do the diffusion effect.

Plus there is the political element of shooting some important middle-aged actress who needs some diffusion and telling her that you are going to shoot it sharp and clean and save the diffusion later for post -- and if she (or the studio) ever sees the sharp dailies before the footage gets softened, you can get fired. You can also upset an actress when shooting HD and she sees herself on a 24" HD studio monitor, in all its sharp and unfiltered glory. So there are many good reasons for doing it in-camera up front, political and practical, if you are committed to that look and have shot tests to determine the right filter to use.

I'll always under-diffuse though, knowing that I can go farther in post if I need to.

Also, since I mostly shoot features on 35mm film, another factor to consider is that your film may end up going through a traditional photochemical post, so you'd want to get any diffusion effects done in-camera.

But even for the eight HD features I've shot, I had to diffuse in-camera -- like I said, the typical DaVinci suite at most post houses used for tape-to-tape color-corrections doesn't have the complete Color Toolbox features that include Digital Diffusion.

[Álex Montoya]

Nice post, David. Funny to hear that the DaVinci is so limited in its options.

[Hans von Sonntag]

For sure if there is the unfortune chance that you cannot influence post and/or the postproduction possibilities are pretty limited you have to alter the image in-camera.

Though I would rather use a "skin friendly" lens such as Cook zooms or primes wide open than a Zeiss prime stopped down and adding diffusion if the story lets me do this.

With skintone masked out filters like The Foundrys Furnace Denoise you can control the amount of wrinkles and such beautifully and don't diffuse the rest of the picture. Sure you have to regrain the manipulated part of the picture but then the result is amazing.

In my experience digital filtering and the implementation in common host systems like Pogel, DaVinci is not really possible yet but AFAIK Scratch does have OFX support and other may have aswell, or will have in the near future.
So there is no need to spend extra money on digital SFX.

I think that ND's and Polarizer will be the ones which are still a must for any cameras/post workflow, but IMHO additionally the DP of tommorow does need deep knowledge in digital filtering.

Hans

[David Mullen ASC]

A DaVinci or Pogle can be quite tricked-out but it just depends on how much the post house is willing to spend on those advanced features. No two DaVinci suites are exactly the same, which is why you have to inquire if you want unlimited number of Power Windows for the frame, for example, or if you want to do luminence and chromakeys.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Guys, I am amazed of the answers I get on my small question.

Thought I´d give this thread a little rating. Big surprise that if just one person gives it 5 stars, it actually has 5 stars.

Well, might be just as well.....

:-)))

Jochen

[David Mullen ASC]

One problem I have with digital diffusion, sometimes, when shooting film for theatrical projection, is the tendency some methods have of "de-graining" the image. Now, sometimes that's a beautiful thing because optical lens diffusion can have the opposite effect, of enhancing the grain (mainly due to the contrast loss) but digital diffusion is not a cure-all and needs to be tested all the way out to film if you are planning on a theatrical release.

[Joel Kaye]

Guys, I am amazed of the answers I get on my small question.

I think "in camera" vs. "post" is always something you wonder about. Ultimately I think we're all going to have to test for ourselves all the way to final output. It's nice to hear opinions from those who have done it though.

[wshultz]

Has anyone here actually introduced grain in HD post? What tools are available in this regard? And as far as the highlight rolloff, can you actually improve that in post when the data isn't there? It seems like a light Promist might be good to have in the kit just in case.

[John Tissavary]

Do it in post (http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007/04/magic-bullet-looks.html). :)

-Stu

Stu... when is new Looks going to be available?

thanks,

jt

[Stu Maschwitz]

No set release date yet, but we're close.

-Stu