Aha says the tick tock man, time to deliver to the client! [Archive]

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tj williams

01-29-2007, 09:34 AM

So I fire up the RED on a job for an outa town producer. I record 1080P 24 on the RED Digital Magazine. During lunch I download the first two mags to the PC and at the end of the day the second 2. I typically shoot 1.5 to 2.5 hrs per day.

Just for math ease lets say I've shot 1 hour of footage.

NOw I need to render this out into a format for delivery for online in final cut
ie the Panasonic HD 1080 Format. (will others be different rendering times?)

Of course everything is in flux. but given a vanilla duo with a gig type typical machine. And for those of us who are less than computer experts. I'm not looking for some exact answer just trying to see in the RED will enable me to deliver the client in a timely way.... ie before the end of fedex that night.

A. Will I be able to render this out in near real time?
B. Will my 1 hour of footage take 8 hours to render?
C. Will I be done in 10 minutes.
D. What will be the difference between this and other possible codec outputs?

Jim Exton

01-29-2007, 02:06 PM

I am hoping that you just turn the footage over to the client in Redcode form and it is they who use the Red Cine software to convert it however they want.

I would hope that the Red Cine software is available to everyone at a cheap price. I would think it would be to Red's benefit to make it that way to help make the workflow accesible to everyone in order to sell more cameras.

As far as your question goes, it is going to be a really tight fit to get it all processed and FedEx'd to them the next day. They might have to wait an additional day. Assuming they don't mind waiting.

Michael Schrengohst

01-29-2007, 03:24 PM

This point is something I bought up before the reservations opened up.
To hedge my bet I have reserved a camera and hope now that the software will be very expensive to purchase!

Don Woods

01-29-2007, 03:31 PM

Or you can always just charge for the processing and that is just part of your rate.. I don't think RED CINE should be over priced but I don't think it should be free. Now the codec that could be something that would be helpfull. But as stated before that is for recoding not an actuall formatt... So who nows how the market are going to go.

Wade McDonald

01-29-2007, 06:32 PM

Personally, I plan to deliver footage on an external hard drive in their format of choice, having processed it through REDCINE myself after the shoot.

In my experience, most out-of-town producers who hire DPs or own/ops rent a deck when they get home ($300-500/day) -- so if they can connect the hard drive straight into their NLE without having to sit and capture tapes (read: no logging labor/"editor doing busy work" cost), they'll not have any problem trading the cost of renting a deck for the cost of buying an external hard drive and paying you a little extra to process footage (and they have a nice digital backup of their footage to stick in a closet).

tj williams

01-30-2007, 03:04 PM

Jim, I'm afraid most of my clients will not have RED CODE. Maybe jim is ready to give out free seats like quick time player, but I've not heard this. Also my clients probably are not ready to learn new software. They already have a codec they use. I'm their freelance employee and I need to fit into their working system.

IMG, Certainly I will set my rates to include my processing just as I now make money selling tapes, and include the fedex delivery in my day.

Wade, What you propose is just about what I intend to do also. Most of my clientele either own an HD deck (Sony/Panasonic) or use a post facility that owns them. Therefore I want to get my footage ready to import into their systems by the most expeditious (to them) means. because they usually own the deck, which is for them a sunk cost. I figure on charging a use fee for the disk drive similiar to the cost of HD tapes. I don't feel I can charge more as this would tend to make me uncompetitive with shooters who use HD tape cameras.

Which brings me to the heart of my original question:

A. Will I be able to render this out in near real time?
B. Will my 1 hour of footage take 8 hours to render?
C. Will I be done in 10 minutes.
D. What will be the difference between codecs ie files that look to the editor
on an external hard drive, like: Panasonic/Sony/jvc tapes. or easy to use
and common files which will intercut on their systems as perhaps DPX etc.

Looking for the computer guru here!!!
Thanks TJ

tj williams

01-30-2007, 06:50 PM

Quite aside from the rendering time to get my output into a codec which the post house can accept I've come upon another small problem.

A very nice man on the cow forum gives me these numbers for distributing my days shooting to my client on hard drives using DPX files. DPX according to him is widely acceptable by post systems, uncompressed, 444color. He says 1080 24P is about 8.5 megs a frame and 720 24P is about 3.7 megs per frame. Red Cine does output this.

At the end of the day I shoot and deliver on a portable hard drive. Usually we shoot about 5 HD tapes a day average. 40min ea or about 200 minutes.

So(someone check this math!:)

8.5 X 24fps=204 X60sec=12.24Gig per min X 200minutes=2448.0gigs
3.7 X 24fps=88.8X60sec=5.328Gig per min X 200minutes=1065.6Gigs

So now I'm lookin for a 3000Gig portable hard drive to loan out?????
(gotta go long some days, and of course drive overhead)

THIS NEEDS A CODE WIZARD!!!!!

Hey basically this won't work. what should I do???
Is there a chance that you will free distribute a RED player so I can just send the stuff in RED Code as suggested by Jim above!!!

Stephen Gentle

01-30-2007, 09:57 PM

I think it would be really good if REDcine was free. It would make it a lot easier to process footage if you just rented the camera, or in a situation like the one above.

Just my $0.02

Evin Grant

01-30-2007, 11:14 PM

I believe the Redcode codec will be freely available (someone from Red correct me if I'm wrong) Redcine is another matter, although it will have unlimited seats when it comes with Red, so maybe you could include it with the drive? If that dosen't violate the licencing agreement. All in all it makes little sense to charge, or at least charge much for Redcine, after all it really just makes shooting (and selling) Red that much easier for the producers.

Nick Shaw

01-31-2007, 02:33 AM

I know I keep saying this, but I really think the situation is no different to what we have currently with tape. Production conpanies have no problem with being handed a box of tapes at the end of a shoot, even though very few have an HDCam or even Digi Beta player in their production offices. They need to rent one in or get it transferred to something they can play. Handing over a drive full of REDCODE rushes would be just the same. In fact the parallel also works for film.

I have no issue with REDCODE being a format you need to buy a 'player' for, just like any other.

Antoine Baumann

01-31-2007, 07:31 AM

I think also that the redcode will be freely available. Then the player might be QuickTime (as redcode is qt codec).
You would need to process the redcode raw in redcode rgb inside redcine anyway, or am I wrong?

Rob Lohman

01-31-2007, 09:44 AM

The codec will do RAW to RGB processing as well. No need to ask what you can influence or how it exactly will work since that's still in development.

Martin Drew

01-31-2007, 10:41 AM

And will the codec license be free Rob?

tj williams

01-31-2007, 10:50 AM

Evin, Stephen:
I totally agree! The ability to play out red code files and transform only what is needed, to their own codec, by my clients, editor is going to be crucial to my business plan with the camera. For this to happen RED playback will have to be available to my clients for free.(see 3 below) It will be important that the RED Playback my clients have will present them with a list of clips to easily choose the circled takes.

Looking at these render times and the size of the resultant files I don't see how I can deliver in any other way. certainly DPX is not an option. Maybe I'm missing somthing here?

Nick,
I don't know anything about your clients. I have been a freelance camera person for over 25 years. I've worked for local companies and for international companies, and for various networks and producers. I know a lot of other people who have the same type of experience. I'm unaware of any current client who is shooting to edit on a system which does not have an input deck in the format they use. Check with Bexel on the number of studio decks they rent as opposed to camera packages! What you are talking about is damned uncommon. To these people the deck is a fixed cost. If it costs them more to ingest RED output, or if it takes more time, they will find someone else or I will rent the camera they prefer. Thats just the simple truth of my life. Now that said, I forsee that we will be data centric, with hard drive, card, or perhaps even internet delivery at some time in the future. I however need to continue to make a living in the immediate future.

Quote: Rod
The codec will do RAW to RGB processing as well. No need to ask what you can influence or how it exactly will work since that's still in development.
__________________
Code Chef @ RED
www.RED.com

Rod: I'm not sure I understand your post pasted above?

What I'm doing by spending my time posting here is exactly trying to influence you (RED Development) to create a workflow for freelance camerapersons like myself we represent a sizeable portion of the RED business. I'm certainly not asking exactly how it works! Probably I wouldn't understand if you told me.... What I'm doing is as clearly as I can telling you about the typical work flow for freelance camerapersons and suggesting to you that it is strongly in the RED companies interest to address these problems.

The questions I think are raised here are:

1. Will it be necessary for me to render my (Raw/RBG?)(720/1080) HD output from the camera's digital mags, to deliver editible HD data to my client?

A. If I must render the mags output: In a general way what will my render times be like?

2. Given the high gig numbers to send DPX What other delivery options will we have that are widely accepted?

A. Are you saying above that RGB is widely accepted by editors and takes no more disk room than raw and and is quickly rendered? Will RGB work as #3 below?

B. Will there be a way to load RED raw files onto a portable disk and send them to the client, in such a way that they will be able to download into their own codec (render?) only those takes they desire.

3. Panasonic/Sony/jvc tapes in HD are currently well accepted. Most of my clients have decks for one or more format, which represent a fixed cost. What plans do you have to make it as easy to download red files into their machines in a way that will intercut with other footage shot elswhere on tape. not more difficult or time consuming than loading from tape.

Michael Schrengohst

01-31-2007, 01:33 PM

I have been asking these questions for a few months. I think the RED team will keep gathering info before any policy & procedures are announced. On one hand it would be great to have everything available for free. On the other hand RED has always said that the RED camera owners will get REDCINE as part of the package. Thus I assume REDCINE will be a packaged piece of software available for purchase by non-RED owners soon after the RED starts shipping???

Rob Lohman

01-31-2007, 03:25 PM

I can't answer such questions, that's for Jim.

Nick Shaw

01-31-2007, 05:35 PM

Nick,
I don't know anything about your clients. I have been a freelance camera person for over 25 years. I've worked for local companies and for international companies, and for various networks and producers. I know a lot of other people who have the same type of experience. I'm unaware of any current client who is shooting to edit on a system which does not have an input deck in the format they use. Check with Bexel on the number of studio decks they rent as opposed to camera packages! What you are talking about is damned uncommon. To these people the deck is a fixed cost. If it costs them more to ingest RED output, or if it takes more time, they will find someone else or I will rent the camera they prefer. Thats just the simple truth of my life. Now that said, I forsee that we will be data centric, with hard drive, card, or perhaps even internet delivery at some time in the future. I however need to continue to make a living in the immediate future.

Obviously I don't know anything about who your clients are either. I run a post production facility, and therefore it is my responsibility to decide what decks I own, and if I don't own one for a particular format I rent one for any job that requires it.

I was talking about production companies, and as far as I'm aware few, if any, of the production companies I work for (and they include some very major UK corporate and commercial production companies) own more than maybe a Beta SP deck. Most just have VHS and DVD for viewing BITC transfers of rushes, and offline edits.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "I'm unaware of any current client who is shooting to edit on a system which does not have an input deck in the format they use". Production companies in my experience rarely own their own editing systems. They use post production facilities who can handle the format they have shot on. If they have shot film, they will often go to a lab and TK facility that is separate from the post house, and send Beta SP one-lights for the offline.

Therefore post houses will need to buy REDCINE and REDCODE licenses, but as I see it, production companies will not. As an editor, and future RED owner, I hope to be in a priviledged position in the early days, as it is certainly true that many of the big facilities will not necessarily be able to handle RED footage in it's original format from the outset. If RED is the success we all hope it will be, post houses will all need to buy REDCINE licenses in the same way as they would need to buy decks for any new format. In the short term, maybe there is money to be made by people offering a bureau service, transcoding REDCODE to other formats.

Is there an issue with REDCINE being a fixed cost to those who need it, just like a deck? Whatever RED might charge for REDCINE licenses to non camera owners, I would not imagine it would be in the same league as a deck.

Sorry if I rubbed anyone up the wrong way. It was certainly not my intention to do so.

Nick

tj williams

01-31-2007, 06:31 PM

Hi Nick

I hope I haven't rubbed you wrong either.

Things in the UK may be very different from here. West coast US.

I quite agree that there are many production companies who only have dv, vhs, They use these on offline systems and will usually receive the downconverted window burn etc. from their post house.

Sorry to be unclear by "edit on a system" I mean that production companies who are finishing an HD project usually go to the larger post houses who all have HDCam and Varicam studio decks at a minimum. Maybe different there?

"Regarding your conclusion "therefore post houses" etc.) I think that is my whole point. How many Varicams and F900s do you think are out there?
Initially there will only be a small number of REDs. Therefore if my clients post house is not interested in buying RED software. My client will say to me shoot on HDCam or Varicam. Then my investment in RED will sit on a shelf while I pay a rental!

I agree with you that it won't cost the 60 80K of a studio deck for HD tape.
That said, if you want 1 seat for the software that runs with the Silicon Imaging camera you will pay about $2000US

As Freelance Shooters we have a problem using the RED:

We are trying to introduce a more data centric work flow. selling our RED cameras against a proven technology from Panasonic and Sony who are heavy hitters in broadcast.

Many producers are unfamiliar with this technology but have plenty of experience with HDCam and or Varicam. People are hard to jar off what they are familiar with, whether its better or not, it still looks very good.

Selling this change to my clients is difficult enough, the last thing on earth I want is another road block to selling a day on my RED Camera.

Free Distribution of a player converter on the model of Windows MEdia Player or Quicktime, will be a lot of help to early owners. Since it will enable sending RAW disks home with the client. It will also make the RED much more acceptable to Producers, since almost every post house will have access to downloading the software.

In your market where appearently many post house with systems that can handle HD data don't have Sony or Panasonic decks, the producers/post houses, may prefer RED RAW/RGB data. Since they won't need to rent a deck and will save money.

Of course we can share our software with the post house unless that is restricted by licensing. It's better if they already have it from the standpoint of selling them on shooting with the RED.

Possibly a better solution: RED Could provide post houses a download of a basic player of RAW/RGB and a converter to several comon HD/SD formats, then sell upgrades to more full featured packages. This has worked well for a number of software companies? Upgrades such as color grading in RAW etc. should be hot sellers and give our cameras an advantage over compressed, lower color space, HD tape formats.

Steven Parker

01-31-2007, 07:05 PM

tj-

You bring up excellent points. As working cameramen we have to deliver footage our clients can USE and it's been hard to understand even roughly how long it will take to de-Bayer/render/resize/output from Redcine if that responsibility falls on us. I understand there's many variables such as capture rez/codec and system performance, but I still can't answer that question as I'm going around trying to pre-sell jobs for my RED....

Perhaps someone from RED could let us know the details of the demo footage that's been screened - render times, system used, etc etc

It would be nice to hand off hard drives of the camera original files and be done, just like handing off tapes or rolls of film... but I suspect there will be a lot of encoding to QuickTimes happening onset, especially for smaller clients.

But you are right, sir - a downloadable player/file converter would be an excellent excellent way to make this codec sweep the market.

Wade McDonald

01-31-2007, 09:14 PM

There are a number of options as far as client delivery, as I understand it.

REDCODE will take some time to process footage; but think about the time that's required to log the tapes -- it's not insignificant. I've more than once had to hire round the clock PA's to log for my own HD projects (and we're talking corporate video and commercials, not long-run features -- I do TV work in SD, and its about the same). Personally, I'm exited at the prospect (as a DP) to actually control the one-light myself (i.e. REDCODE) before it gets shipped to the production house.

Additionally, a lot of the usual "broadcast quality" tape formats (DVCPRO HD, HDCAM) are not 444 uncompressed. DVCPRO HD is, in fact, a rather compressed format -- I've got
600 minutes of 720p60 (meant for SD 480i out after Shake compositing -- so I wanted one progressive frame for each interlaced field to avoid issues in the composite -- most of you will agree that it's excessive, but I'm a quality nut) and that whole 600 minutes (20 tapes) captured to about 386gig... easily managable. (I would also like to mention that the original tapes plus the client delivery tapes cost me around 240$ when all was said and done -- well within the range of an appropriate drive)

Quite aside from the rendering time to get my output into a codec which the post house can accept I've come upon another small problem.

A very nice man on the cow forum gives me these numbers for distributing my days shooting to my client on hard drives using DPX files. DPX according to him is widely acceptable by post systems, uncompressed, 444color. He says 1080 24P is about 8.5 megs a frame and 720 24P is about 3.7 megs per frame. Red Cine does output this.

At the end of the day I shoot and deliver on a portable hard drive. Usually we shoot about 5 HD tapes a day average. 40min ea or about 200 minutes.

DPX is nice and all; but it's the open source variation of the format Kodak invented for digital film scans for a DI process-- and not something you'd normally use for "owner/operator" type jobs, unless you're doing something 2k or 4k for film-out. That's why the post houses that work with 2k/4k DI have truly massive storage rooms with 10-20 terabytes live. Additionally, DPX doesn't include audio. ;)

It is, however, a great format to use for post on the DCI spec... so none of this applies to 2k/4k meant for digital cinema... and a great format to use for VFX compositing work.

more info at wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPX

Ultimately, you've got to remember that this kind of quality (whether you're talking 4k or 1080p24@4.4.4) has never really been within the reach of most of us without a SIGNIFICANT rental cost. Your clients will be happy with any of the NLE formats that REDCODE will be able to deliver -- and if indeed they want to do it really high end, then I'm willing to bet they won't scoff at paying a nice high-end post house to do the finishing on a Scratch workstation or something similar (which, btw, Scratch does understand REDCODE native) in which case you can arrange to borrow one of their drives (every post house I know of has large external firewire raids for that purpose) -- but in that case they'll expect you to provide low-res proxies for the actual edit (offline)... so you're back to the small portable external hd.

TJ, to answer your question 2 (i'm not qualified to answer 1/A, clearly) I would suggest that if you would rather not deal with digital formats (I understand your frustration, as there are various codecs for each Kona, Blackmagic, Final Cut, Avid, Mac, PC) -- then i'd suggest renting a deck either on set (to hook up HD-SDI dual-link 4:4:4 for on-set recording in a studio) or afterwards and delivering on tape, if you really think its nessasary... but to be perfectly honest, it's not that hard to find a codec on a client-by-client basis that will work on your system and theirs. FCP's DVCPRO HD (SMPTE 370M), Avid's DNxHD, Adobe/Cineform ProspectHD or a similar NLE specific codec would be great. Worse comes to worse, you can bring your copy of REDCODE on a laptop and xfer the files as you process them (as you'll most likely change settings on a take by take basis anyway)

The other thing you've got to remember is that the main benefit of shooting RAW is that you have the control LATER, and by this I mean you can make exposure corrections, color balance, etc when you're done with the shoot. Anyone with a digital SLR will tell you that RAW is leagues different from shooting in JPG -- why? because you can choose later where and how the values fit into your color gamut. NTSC has an exposure range of roughly 5.5 stops, and Jim has said that one of the prototype cameras demonstrated a possible range of almost 11 (which, if i'm not mistaken, closely approaches that of motion picture film) -- the purpose of a telecine in film production is to compress those 11 stops into tv's 5.5 -- this isn't a problem with video, because it's 5.5 to begin with -- which is why skys in video often turn white, and why you can't use a viewfinder to accurately calibrate an iris -- you really need a production field monitor and an engineer with a vectorscope to do it perfectly as most of you are aware. (sorry for preaching to the choir) Ultimately, as a DP, you ought to be the one making exposure considerations, not the producer -- it's really worthwhile for you to be the one doing the telecine.... I mean REDCINE... :)

It is a little weird and takes some getting used to for people used to shooting video... ultimately, this is a merging of video and film, and uses a workflow that's a lot more similar to film than video... but the quality of the camera is more comparable to film than any camera that has ever existed. It's made for the techies and the early adopters that are willing to trade some uncertainty and a hiccup here and there for something really special.

Finally, it's my understanding that REDCODE is about half of "The RED Revolution" -- it's a hell of a technical feat to make a 4k camera, but it's also a hell of a technical feat to make the means by which that much data (in excess of 275,539,200 pixels per second) can be processed in real-time inside the camera, to come out of the camera in a usable data rate thats compatable with mainstream computers (and not just room-sized supercomputers) -- and not have the camera cost several fortunes. In explaining it to an audio post friend, we ended up likening it to draining a 35,000 gallon pool with 1/4in PVC pipe --- it doesn't work very well, unless you've got a heck of a pump (REDCODE, to extend the metaphor too far). I wouldn't give away such a pump for free to just anyone. (ok, the metaphor is dead)

Anyway, cheers to the RED team for all their hard work, and feel free (especially those with red names) to correct anything I've misrepresented or misunderstood.

Jarred Land

01-31-2007, 09:16 PM

tj-

Perhaps someone from RED could let us know the details of the demo footage that's been screened - render times, system used, etc etc

I was the one who processed the frames for all the footage thats been shown, and its safe to say the time it took to render those images is irrelevant at this point.. Graeme and Rob have progressed the development so far ahead of those times that its a whole different ballgame.

Even back then.. we used Mac towers and Laptops to encode.. not supercomputers.

Wade McDonald

01-31-2007, 09:24 PM

Correction to my previous post --

I explained the 11 stop compression into 5.5, and then went into a rant about gamma without calling it that. Gamma is the reason that Kodak invented Cineon (to retain the 11 stops of dynamic range on a computer system, or at least accurately represent them, and why you have to use a proxy log/lin color system to view them correctly) Video is based on the gamma of CRT televisions, and has a much higher gamma than film.

Again, I'll refer to the wisdom of the masses:

(from wikipedia, linked below)
"
Photographic film has a much greater ability to record fine differences in shade than can be reproduced on photographic paper. Similarly, a video screen is not as capable of displaying the range of brightness which can be captured by electronic cameras. For this reason, a considerable amount of artistic effort in photography can be invested in choosing what reduced form of the original image should be presented. The gamma correction, or contrast selection, is part of the photographic repertoire used to adjust the recorded image.
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction

Again, this is my understanding from working with video engineers... I might have a few details wrong.. feel free to correct me.

-W

Gopher77

01-31-2007, 09:41 PM

Personally I see this going the same way as digital photgraphy. Nearly all photographers shoot raw now, depending on the client they deliver either a disc of raw photos or they take them in photoshop and process and deliver finished photos. Clients are going to want different things, some will want raw, other HD etc. The beauty of RED is will be able to deliver all, and still own the RAW "negative". As far as render times, I think we have to wait till they get finished and some benchmarks can be ran. Seems to me these guys know what they're doing and are keeping us updated on their progress. So I'll just hang out and see what is what when they are finished rather then speculate on what may be.

tj williams

01-31-2007, 09:52 PM

Finner

01-31-2007, 11:04 PM

Wade very nice posts. I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

Wade McDonald

01-31-2007, 11:13 PM

Wade: Thanks for the example. So by my calculations if I bring in 720 60 direct fm a Varicam with all the frames for my 200minute example I'd need about a 130Gig portable drive. Right very dooable from a drive perspective. On this footage did you digitize into the computer at the same compression that was on the tapes? Is it the same codec that was on the tapes?

Wade: I quite agree with your point about grading RAW footage and have done this in Photoshop. Amazing range of possibilities there. I've been willing to go to the Davinci suite for low wages to be sure we are getting a good consistent look and this is not too different. I've priced scratch and the other graders out there by the time you have a computer and array and the software you have spent some pretty serious bucks.

Yep, I maintained the footage, capped over HD-SDI using a Kona LH, in its original format (DVCPROHD 720p60 codec) -- I didn't have access to the nifty Panasonic Deck that connects via firewire, because my local rental place didn't have one at the time... my client was thrilled, and it was (albeit compressed) more than adequate for my Shake work -- there were a few artifacts in some of the greenscreen footage, but they were on the tape too, and didn't cause any problem whatsoever. However, even if you end up compressing it into DVCPROHD (which is a SMTPE standardized codec used by a number of cards -- canopus, kona, blackmagic, etc) it still meets the delivery requirements of most major networks (not sure about Discovery, as they're notorious for high requirements -- they may require something like HDCAM SR)

I hate to plug something, but if you have a mac there's a widget made by a uk plugin company that helps calc storage based on industry standard codecs for HD -- it's free, and it takes audio into account.

http://www.digital-heaven.co.uk/videospace/index.php

I ran your original request (1080i60 DVCPROHD, 200min, 2ch 48k 16bit) and it says 174.93 gig. Sounds wrong to me.

Hmm... it says my 720p60 600 minutes should have been around 525.31 gig; so perhaps my low numbers are because it was mostly greenscreen footage for composites? either that or the thing overestimates. Oh well. I'm using an 1.6 TB RAID external firewire 800 for most of my VFX work, and I've found that it's plenty fast for realtime 720p60 editing (I worried that the framerate was too much to adequately process)

Yeah, you're right about the high-end post. I'm hoping there are going to be more options in the future. I'm really impressed with Scratch, but it's a bit out of my price range too, hehe. A good one-light in REDCINE plus some basic grading with my NLE is all I plan to do for most of my in-house projects... post places are wonderful, but most of my clients don't want the extra expense... not to mention you can do a lot CC-wise if you spend a little time in your NLE, be it FCP or Avid. I'm the king of replacing expensive hardware/software workflows with lots and lots of elbow grease -- even to the point of using Shake to mask and power-window like a davinci. ;)

There's some hope though... Apple bought up all the IP of Silicon Color's Final Touch grading system.. here's hoping that they do what they did with Shake and put the pricing at a reasonable level... NAB maybe?

-W

Corrado Silveri

02-01-2007, 12:44 AM

Yep, I maintained the footage, capped over HD-SDI using a Kona LH, in its original format (DVCPROHD 720p60 codec) -- I didn't have access to the nifty Panasonic Deck that connects via firewire, because my local rental place didn't have one at the time...

Hey Wade, in this way you've decompress "out" and recompress "in".
The codec was the same, ok, but you modify the original footage twice...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

And yes, hoping to hear news from Apple at NAB.

Antoine Baumann

02-01-2007, 02:22 AM

Will 2K raw take more room on disk than for instance 1080P 24 HDCam?

Will it be possible to put out HD resolutions in RAW?

Elo Williams, are you talking about HDCam or HDCam SR, and what kind of raw are you talking about?
If I remember well, HDCam is about 140Mbit/s, so around 17.5MBytes/s. RECODE raw 4k will be around 30MBytes/sec, so around 7.5MBytes in REDCODE raw 2k.
HDCam SR is 440Mbits/sec in 4:2:2 and 880Mbits/sec for 4:4:4:. 2k uncompressed raw is 2260x1270x1(raw)x10(bit log)x24(fps)= 690Mbits/sec
I am actually unsure of the raw's bit depth. I think you can record up to 12 bit (lin), which would raise up the data rate to 830Mbits/sec.

Raw is a single channel format image, and therefore it is 3 times lighter than rbg. For exemple for 2k REDCODE rgb is going to be 3 times 7.5MBytes/sec (@24fps), so 22.5MBytes/sec.

As far as I understand it, the only way to output HD resolution in raw is to process 4k or 2k raw inside redcine to an HD resolution.

Hope it helps,
antoine

Nick Shaw

02-01-2007, 02:43 AM

For exemple for 2k REDCODE rgb is going to be 3 times 7.5MBytes/sec (@24fps), so 22.5MBytes/sec.

Remember 2k REDCODE RGB doesn't exist in camera any more, although I'm sure you can use it as an output format from REDCINE, whether derived from 2k or 4k REDCODE RAW. The closest you have is 1080p REDCODE RGB. We don't know data rates for that, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that it would be similar to those for 4k REDCODE RAW. 25% the number of pixels, but 3 times the number of channels would imply 75% of the data rate, but compression efficiency decreases with image size so about the same is a good assumption.

Martin Drew

02-01-2007, 03:09 AM

--- it doesn't work very well, unless you've got a heck of a pump (REDCODE, to extend the metaphor too far). I wouldn't give away such a pump for free to just anyone.

Great post Wade.

There are a number of ways of looking at this issue. It appears that Red's strategy is to go for market penetration, in which case giving away the RedCode codec could make a lot of sense. It is like Apple giving away iTunes in order to sell more iPods.

M

Antoine Baumann

02-01-2007, 03:18 AM

Remember 2k REDCODE RGB doesn't exist in camera any more, although I'm sure you can use it as an output format from REDCINE, whether derived from 2k or 4k REDCODE RAW. The closest you have is 1080p REDCODE RGB. We don't know data rates for that, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that it would be similar to those for 4k REDCODE RAW. 25% the number of pixels, but 3 times the number of channels would imply 75% of the data rate, but compression efficiency decreases with image size so about the same is a good assumption.

Yep you right 2k rgb doesn't exist in camera, but as you also said I was thinking as an output format from REDCINE.

I totaly aggree with the 75% of data rate from 4k raw to 1080p/2k rgb.

Nick Shaw

02-01-2007, 03:23 AM

TJ, I think we are basically in agreement, although somebody might not think so from reading our posts!

In the long run, HD post houses will all need to have REDCINE, but in the short term freelance camera owner operators need to make the process as simple as possible for producers in order to sell in the idea of shooting on RED.

Going back to your original post, the easiest solution would appear to be, as you said, converting all rushes to DVCProHD (about a minute and a half per GB for 1080p24) so that you can give somebody a drive of reasonable size and affordability with a format on it that they are familiar with and can use immediately. If they are editing on Avid, you could convert to DNxHD (220Mb/s for 10-bit, so about twice the data rate of DVCProHD, but still perfectly feasible).

DVCProHD is an 8-bit format (but so is HDCam) and DNxHD is 10-bit (but not 10-bit log like DPX can do) so either way you are losing some of the bit depth of the original REDCODE, as well as 'baking in' the white balance, curves etc. Obviously these can be changed to an extent in the grade, but only to the same extent you would have in a tape-to-tape grade. Working direct from the REDCODE would be more like the grading flexibility you have in a film TK.

It is a dilemma. Some of the advantages of RED which you want to be able to use to sell the idea, are no longer there if you go the transcoding workflow. 35mm DoF and top quality ciné glass are still a big deal though.

A freely (or cheaply) distributed QuickTime codec would indeed make the situation easier. It would still not allow the full RAW flexibility of REDCINE, but it would mean that rushes could be handed over at the end of a shoot without the time taken for transcoding. Without REDCINE for match-back, people who want to take a traditional offline/online path will still not find it easy though.

The workflow is definitely not immediately straightforward to fit into existing industry infrastructures. It is the main reason why I as an editor reserved a RED. I've seen it happen with both the VariCam and HDV, that they took a while to catch on as formats (certainly here in the UK) because producers were loathe to shoot with them, because many post houses were not initially set up to deal with them. Rushes got dubbed onto other formats, often not very well, and people then didn't see them at their best, and formed opinions accordingly. I want to be an early adopter on the post side.

No easy answers, but lots of food for thought!

Nick

Wade McDonald

02-01-2007, 06:32 AM

Hey Wade, in this way you've decompress "out" and recompress "in".
The codec was the same, ok, but you modify the original footage twice...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

And yes, hoping to hear news from Apple at NAB.

Technically, you're correct, but because all the points are digital, there's not a significant generational loss. This is the workflow of choice for working with most video decks... play the tape over HD-SDI to the NLE to log. I could have captured it in an uncompressed format in the NLE, but it wouldn't have recorded any more data than was already present... kinda like making a .zip file, unzipping it, copying the contents, and re-zipping... no percevable generational loss... If I had used the analog component out of the deck and put it into the NLE that way, I'd have been subject to recompression nastiness.

-W

Nick Shaw

02-01-2007, 06:56 AM

tj williams

02-01-2007, 09:41 AM

Wow WAde! Good figures anyhow....175 gig 200= min So most of my jobs could be sent to the client in DVCpro50HD on a disk like the one below?

SMARTDISK XF250F CrossFire 250GB External Hard Drive Price: $179.99 US at Amazon. equiv HDCam tapes are over $200 so this is a very reasonable way to send material to the client.

Labroprod: Bear with my computer ignorance here! RED RAW is what I was referring to. Is that the same as other forms of RAW? Currently we deliver HDcam tapes. I didn't mention but I believe that in the future we will be required to deliver in HDCam SR (Which is gonna be like betacamSp which replaced std betacam) As I understand it now most of the editoirs don't actually ingest HDCam codec but transcode it to DVCProHD?

Paraphrase Lab:"If I remember well, HDCam is around 17.5MBytes/s. RECODE raw 4k will be around 7.5MBytes in REDCODE raw 2k."

So what I conclude from this is that it is better in terms of disk space and my time to be able to send the client RED RAW 2K on the portable disk. INcluding a copy of RED Cine (or they download it) So they can pick out the circled takes for import ingest. Is that right?

Quoted fm Lab: "HDCam SR is 440Mbits/sec in 4:2:2 and 880Mbits/sec for 4:4:4:. 2k uncompressed raw is 2260x1270x1(raw)x10(bit log)x24(fps)= 690Mbits/sec i'm actually unsure of the raw's bit depth. I think you can record up to 12 bit (lin), which would raise up the data rate to 830Mbits/sec.

So to put my 200 minutes on a hard drive. in HDCam SR 444= 830Mbits sec.X60sec49800 a minX200minutes=996gig? Thats a lot different that DVCProHD, anyone knows why? Is this a math error on my part?

Quoted: "Raw is a single channel format image, and therefore it is 3 times lighter than rbg. For exemple for 2k REDCODE rgb is going to be 3 times 7.5MBytes/sec (@24fps), so 22.5MBytes/sec."

So this appears to me to mean that it is better to ship disks to my client in 2K raw (maybe even 4K raw) in terms of disk space alone, than to ship in the RGB codec at 1080?

Also If I ship in RED RAW and they have the software to grade in RED RAW
(could this be only for RED RAW or software that addresses any raw format?)
They will have much more grading and correction lattitude this way.

Quoted: "As far as I understand it, the only way to output HD resolution in raw is to process 4k or 2k raw inside redcine to an HD resolution."

So the camer itself cannot output RED RAW in 1080 or 720? Thats too bad because the files would be even smaller and probably use less time to transcode by the post house?

Nick: I agree we are in total agreement. We just come from different sides of the same problem. For me this all seems to mean that for cheaper shows like special interest shows on ed channel etc. etc. they won't grade in post. I've already seen the result! On some shows ie Discovery BBC they will be more interested in 444 and RAW to give them more room to adjust the image. Strangely this will mean that I will have to go to more trouble (grading, rendering and larger portable disks) to deliver to the less expensive shows?

This of course continues to point out as you said above the need for post houses to have and be ready to use RED CINE playback of some sort.

Do you know if all grading tools will address RED RAW?

Another question is that many times producers bring the set up chip for the camera they prefer. Is it possible to use the numbers off these, to get a matching look on the video in grading/rendering out?

Nick Shaw

02-01-2007, 10:02 AM

So to put my 200 minutes on a hard drive. in HDCam SR 444= 830Mbits sec.X60sec49800 a minX200minutes=996gig? Thats a lot different that DVCProHD, anyone knows why? Is this a math error on my part?

Your maths is wrong, but in the wrong direction. It comes out at 9.96 Terrabits, which is nearly 1.25TB. That's because HDCam SR at that rate is 10 bit 4:4:4 1920x1080, whereas DVCPro HD is 8 bit 4:2:2 1280x1080. Plus HDCam SR is more lightly compressed that DVCPro HD.

But at the end of all that, it's not a real issue, as HDCam SR only exists as a tape format. It's not a codec you can use to put something on a drive. So best to stick to DVCPro HD to fit into current workflows, or hope that a freely distributable REDCODE codec sorts the problem by working natively in current NLEs.

tj williams

02-01-2007, 10:10 AM

Wheeew Nick. Those are big numbers. Twas me weakness t maths that cause me ta be in the camera dept.

Wade McDonald

02-01-2007, 01:52 PM

I agree there is unlikely to be a 'significant' generational loss, DVCPro HD is a pretty good codec when it comes to re-compression cycles. However I would not call it the workflow of choice. DVCPro HD 720p60 works internally at 960x720, but HD-SDI is 1280x720. Therefore you are performing a horizontal up-scale, followed by a downscale in your work flow. Even if the re-compression loss is negligible, the scaling will 'damage' the image, particularly if you need to pull keys (unless the slight softening is helping you.)

It is what you have to do when editing HDCam in anything except Xpri (which as far as I know is the only system that works natively in the HDCam codec) but one of the reasons DV based formats get away with higher compression ratios is that the need for generation loss is reduced.

EDIT
Just did a test in Photoshop of scaling 960 to 1280 and back again. I took a worst case scenario with alternate black and white lines. In the result, the white lines became 75% white, and the black lines became 25% white, so each pixel becomes 75% of its own value plus 12.5% of each of the values of the pixels either side. Not that insignificant! And that's not taking account of what would happen to the 4:2:2 sub-sampling in this process.

I don't think your zip analogy fits here, as zip is numerically lossless.

For reference, the Kona-based FCP codec I was using to capture from SDI was at 960x720, because I used the Varicam specific variation of the codec, rather than the stock FCP 1280x720 version i've suggested for TJ to consider using to deliver to his clients. There was no sub-pixel issues in the footage, although there were sight compression artifacts (far more annoying than the softness of an upscale) due to the DVCPRO HD codec itself on the green field... I wasn't terribily happy about that, I must say.

Additionally, the Photoshop scaling test is something I use when I teach concatenation in Shake... if you dont' concatenate operations, you end up with sub-pixel sampling, hence the % values. Every good compositor knows how to avoid it, and it really only becomes an issue outside of the usual video suite of tools or NLEs.

Yes, the zip analogy was an oversimplification. Sorry. I have a penchant for convenient metaphors. My intent was to say that there was no perceivable difference between what was on the broadcast monitor from the deck and from the computer. If you have a suggestion of using something other (better) than HD-SDI to connect the deck to the FCP system, I'm open to other ideas. Nick, in your shop, how do you deal with the "damage" inherent to getting footage off of any Varicam-based system, as it will be, either digitally (SDI) or analog (Component) be upscaled to 1280x720? Is there another way? (I am legitimately curious)

For our RED purposes, however, I can't see why scaling down to 1280x720 (or 1920x1080, for that matter) using DVCPRO HD wouldn't be a good bet for delivery to clients in most cases. Clearly, a better 10 bit codec with 4:4:4 color would be ideal, but my point in the first post was to provide options, and explain that each client will likely be different in their needs based on their final delivery intent, and that delivery via hard drives is a viable option.

I see what you guys mean about having a weak version of a REDCODE RAW decoder avalable for small producers hiring red camera owner/ops... but being a bit of a control freak myself, I'd rather make the gamma decisions myself before handing it off.

...my .02$

-W

Antoine Baumann

02-01-2007, 01:55 PM

Labroprod: Bear with my computer ignorance here! RED RAW is what I was referring to. Is that the same as other forms of RAW?

Don't worry we are all learning a lot from this forum, and that is what so interesting here.
I think you can create any raw "format" you want. I mean REDCODE raw is one, but if you look to still cameras' raw format, even in the same brand there is different raw. With the RED camera, you will be able to record two differents raw (not including resolution difference), uncompressed raw and REDCODE raw.

Quoted: "Raw is a single channel format image, and therefore it is 3 times lighter than rbg. For exemple for 2k REDCODE rgb is going to be 3 times 7.5MBytes/sec (@24fps), so 22.5MBytes/sec."

So this appears to me to mean that it is better to ship disks to my client in 2K raw (maybe even 4K raw) in terms of disk space alone, than to ship in the RGB codec at 1080?

I think so. Like we said 4K raw is going to be around 133% of 2k/1080 rgb.

INcluding a copy of RED Cine (or they download it) So they can pick out the circled takes for import ingest. Is that right?

Not sure REDCINE will be free and downloadable, neither you would be allowed to give it to your client. For that info, we have to wait for Jim's comments.

I am not sure (again :-) of what meant Rob,

The codec will do RAW to RGB processing as well.

but you might even be able to read "emualte" rgb for viewing out of the raw footage. So you edit in REDCODE raw, then go to REDCINE, make your gamma and other adjustment and process you EDL in REDCODE rgb (or other codec of your choise).

Also If I ship in RED RAW and they have the software to grade in RED RAW
(could this be only for RED RAW or software that addresses any raw format?)
They will have much more grading and correction lattitude this way.

I am not sure (make me the "not sure man" :-)) of what you are asking here. What I feel is you should first process the raw footage from the RED camera (should it be the uncompressed raw or the REDCODE raw) inside REDCINE and output in any format and codec your grading/compositing software or clients workflow might be. I do not see any better software than REDCINE to process your images, from the RED camera, in rgb or 4:4:4, then you make the final grade inside grading software like SpeedGrade, Final Touch, ...
I also think that REDCINE will only process raw footage from the RED camera, and not other raw.

Do you know if all grading tools will address RED RAW?

I am not sure (:) ) any grading software accept REDCODE raw. Do you know grading tools that accept raw? If yes, may be there could be a work out for the REDCODE raw. But, again, what I feel is that you process in rgb inside REDCINE, let's say in REDCODE rgb, and then you do your final grading, let's say in Apple Final Touch, which should accept any quicktime codec install on your computer. Of course REDCODE raw is also a qt codec, but Final Touch must have a tool (or plugin) that deal with raw (in our case REDCODE raw).

Nick Shaw

02-01-2007, 02:25 PM

Wade,
all I was suggesting was that the Firewire equipped deck would be the best way to transfer DVCPro HD material (or any DV format material for that matter) into FCP for Native codec editing. But as you said, the deck was not available to you at the time. Going via HD-SDI will always involve un-concatenated scaling, as HD-SDI only carries square pixels. I would see a possible benefit in capturing HD-SDI if you were capturing uncompressed, and laying off to a full rater format like HDCam SR. It just seems to me not the best way to go if you are scaling back down to 960 on capture.

I always try and preserve media in its native format where possible. Even when doing DV edits I work Firewire DV throughout, then convert the timeline to 10 bit un-compressed, render all, then lay off to Digi.

Antoine,
I think Rob meant that the REDCODE Quicktime codec will be able to read REDCODE RAW media as well as REDCODE RGB, and so any QuickTime application would see the RAW file as if it were RGB.

Wade McDonald

02-01-2007, 06:46 PM

Rob Lohman

02-02-2007, 03:24 AM

That's correct Nick!

tj williams

02-02-2007, 01:07 PM

NICK:
"Going back to your original post, the easiest solution would appear to be, as you said, converting all rushes to DVCProHD (about a minute and a half per GB for 1080p24) so that you can give somebody a drive of reasonable size and affordability with a format on it that they are familiar with and can use immediately. If they are editing on Avid, you could convert to DNxHD (220Mb/s for 10-bit, so about twice the data rate of DVCProHD, but still perfectly feasible)."

Hi NIck I just talked to a pretty experienced software engineer with quite a lot of experience in codecs. Talking about 2K RED RAW being converted by my computer into 1080 24P or 720 24P New duo with a gig type vanilla box. His estimate was about 4 hours per hour on 1080 and 1.5 to 2hr on 720

So if I come home and have the rendering started after dinner at 7PM then it will be ready to deliver the 200 minutes in about 13hours of rendering so 8am the next morning I'm off to Fedex.

Clearly I won't be posting here on that computer so I'd better consider it a one use only machine!

All The Best,

Blair S. Paulsen

02-02-2007, 09:53 PM

Freelance RedOne owner/ops must be able to generate a ready to use version of the shot footage quickly and easily to book rental days for the camera. I am in total agreement with this assertion and have posted on the topic at least a dozen times on DVXuser, DVinfo and Reduser. At this time there is no definitive "best practices" workflow since RedCine and RedCode are still in development and licensing of the tech is as yet undetermined. Not the kind of guy that can just wait and see what happens, I know the feeling.

My brilliant (or perhaps colossally stupid) idea is this: I am buying a van and stuffing it with a fast computer, hard drive arrays, monitors and the lot so I can process a one light grade via RedCine into the format requested by the producer on (or near) set. I plan to get 3 RedDrive mags so I can rotate them regularly throughout the day into the van. I will run a copy (or 2) of the RedCode RAW original data onto my storage system and hold it for 30 days as part of my day rate (longer for an extra charge). I will bill the client for hard drives that they can walk away with (if I can process the footage fast enough) or have sent to them by FedEx as if they were tapes - I figure $200 for 250GB drives this year, less per Gig soon.

In terms of formats for editing I figure the client will call that tune and since they are paying for drive space... Any client who seems unable to figure this out themselves I will sell them on DVCPRO-HD despite its quality issues since it will allow me to get a lot of footage onto the drives. I am a big proponent of Quicktime or some actual standards body setting a nice middle of the road standard for HD that is not a Sony or Panasonic thing. I suggest a 10bit, 4:4:4, full raster 1920p @23.98, 25, 29.97 and 59.94 with mild compression, preferably wavelet that uses about 3GB/min @59.94. Until then we get to dance the dance. I also means that for many projects the post house will not have access to the RAW version unless they want to take the conform step and open up another revenue stream for me :D

Steven Parker

02-03-2007, 01:57 AM

Well said, Blair, I am on your page... though I envy you the van chock full o' toys... Ah well, soon enough.

BTW you're the first person I've seen on these posts to see RedCine as possible additional income even though I've mentioned it before. I just wonder where I'll find the time as my heart lies in shooting, not post...

Maybe the RED team can help us clone ourselves so we can shoot one project while we're timing/transcoding the last one...how's that for modular?;)

GlennChan

02-03-2007, 03:51 AM

Hmm what about data backups (tape)? Perhaps it would be a chance to upsell the client if they would like to have a backup of their own footage.

Michael Schrengohst

02-03-2007, 07:07 AM

We do this with HVX footage.....
But we are talking a 300 gig $150 drive that will hold
days and days of P2 cards...
The fun part is getting the client upto speed on how
to import P2 into their NLE of choice. FCP is cake.
But many clients are still on Premiere and need to buy at least Raylight ($195) but most Premiere users like Aspect HD ($500) so if a comparable price to a REDCINE Light version might be the way to go. I would rather give the client a 1:1 copy of the RED footage then have to log and render footage in a lesser format. If you had to give the client another format you would have to have like a Tele-Cine session and CC and WB all the footage as you go....
If the client could get REDCINE I know most would rather do that themselves.....Perhaps the RED owners can be the distribution channel for REDCINE?

P Andersson

02-03-2007, 07:56 AM

Freelance RedOne owner/ops must be able to generate a ready to use version of the shot footage quickly and easily to book rental days for the camera.

with the intensity card from blackmagic, maybe it would be possible in studio solutions to record a smaller format directly to computer that would be ready for client delivery without any post processing at all, that is, if the timecode is kept through the hdmi

have thought of different ways that the red could possibly produce a small file of every clip on a different media on camera that you could easily give away right away

on still camera shoots, I often shoot raw and jpg at the same time and simply hand off the jpg as an editing tool and tell clients to email me their choices, then I go back to the raw and make a good cc etc

Blair S. Paulsen

02-03-2007, 11:05 AM

The idea of recording a "proxy" using one of the available outputs occured to me as well. The major disincentive was having to manage two recordings instead of one but in a studio setting perhaps that would be a minor issue.

The big upside is that processor in the camera is doing all the work for you on the fly - no rendering. The quality of even a 720p output is plenty for editorial and the addition of graticules and camera data as overlays is a plus as far as I am concerned (just like burned in timecode it makes the review copies impossible to use for their project so they have to pay me in order to get the clean version ;) )

I don't fully grasp exactly what is possible but there have been some posts that inferred a wavelet compressed encode like RedCode RAW carries a low res "base" version already. Perhaps RedCine will ship with the ability to create real time offline quality output??? This is beyond my expertise but perhaps someone else in our Reduser community can clear it up - or even someone on the Red Team?

tj williams

02-03-2007, 05:18 PM

Blair S. Paulsen

02-05-2007, 08:38 PM

Blair: Love the van, also need Latte machine, area for invoicing and of course a place to recline while you are in your trailer!

anything about how to fit the van into a backpack, or carry on luggage will be very helpful????

Also how fast will this monster render out to 1080P 24 DVCPro HD???

Espresso machine yes. Recliner - check.

For flypack gigs I am thinking about just renting extra RedDrives and if necessary renting a fast computer system at the site to run copies. If I was hopscotching by air I have considered using commercial data storage vendors to make clones of the footage.

Render times for 4k to 1080/24p DVCPro-HD via RedCine are impossible to know at this point but you gotta believe that the more computer horsepower and bus bandwidth the faster it will be.

Corrado Silveri

02-06-2007, 04:57 PM

Hey Wade, in this way you've decompress "out" and recompress "in".
The codec was the same, ok, but you modify the original footage twice...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wade,
all I was suggesting was that the Firewire equipped deck would be the best way to transfer DVCPro HD material (or any DV format material for that matter) into FCP for Native codec editing. But as you said, the deck was not available to you at the time. Going via HD-SDI will always involve un-concatenated scaling, as HD-SDI only carries square pixels. I would see a possible benefit in capturing HD-SDI if you were capturing uncompressed, and laying off to a full rater format like HDCam SR. It just seems to me not the best way to go if you are scaling back down to 960 on capture.

I always try and preserve media in its native format where possible. Even when doing DV edits I work Firewire DV throughout, then convert the timeline to 10 bit un-compressed, render all, then lay off to Digi.

Completely agree.