Red Team: What is the status on the Scarlet S35?

[Andrew Rieger]

As the title states, I was just wondering if we could get any info about when to expect prototypes of the Scarlet S35. I am assuming they will not follow far behind the Epic due to the fact that they share a sensor which makes me wonder, is the only thing the Epic has over the Scarlet S35 the faster frame rates and higher redcodes?

Having trouble deciding between the 2/3" and S35, want the 2/3 for the faster frame rates and miniprimes but want the S35 for the low light. I may have to save up for both (which is why red is brilliant, allowing me the move modules between brains, saving me money in the long run.)

[Rick Burnett]

I am going with the 2/3 Fixed and then eventually the S35 in addition in the future as well.

2/3 for the framerate and deep focus
S35 for light sensitivity and shallow focus

(not that you can't get shallow focus with the 2/3, but I want something that behaves close to the APS-C sensor size so I can use my Canon/Sigma glass.

[PatrickW]

It's done, when it's done.

[David Rasberry]

I don't think there will be huge difference in low light sensitivity with the 2/3". Sensor/pixel size alone does not determine this.

[Noah Kadner]

I dunno- the FF sensor on a 5D translates to about a stop and a half more light sensitivity vs. the APC-sized 7D sensor. So I'd say it's an important factor.

Noah

[Andrew Rieger]

Also, keep in mind that in order to get the high resolution out of the 3k 2/3 sensor, the pixels must be smaller than the S35 sensor (I forget how many microns), and the smaller the pixel, the less light sensitivity.

[Jaime Vallés]

I would hope the S35 Scarlet isn't too far behind the Epic X release. It's essentially a less complex version of the same camera, right?

[Jon Howe]

I am going with the 2/3 Fixed and then eventually the S35 in addition in the future as well.

2/3 for the framerate and deep focus
S35 for light sensitivity and shallow focus

(not that you can't get shallow focus with the 2/3, but I want something that behaves close to the APS-C sensor size so I can use my Canon/Sigma glass.

I too am doing the fixed and then S35. I have a shload of Canon glass that I'd like to use, but I would also like the 150fps of the fixed.

Maybe we'll get word after NAB/RED Day.

[Andrew Rieger]

I would hope the S35 Scarlet isn't too far behind the Epic X release. It's essentially a less complex version of the same camera, right?

Exactly what I was thinking. Technically speaking, the 2/3 is the most different but I guess they are all being developed at once (one team works on this, another on that ect.)

[G Lap]

Wasn't this the last official word:


"SCHEDULE

Given that current delay in the ASIC development, we now see the following schedule.

Remember.. the goal posts move everyday. Sometimes they go backwards, sometimes they leap forward. The two things left are the ASIC and firmware. It took us 2 years to get where we are now, another couple of extra months to get where we need to go for a solid, new feature firmware for the new cameras. That is one of the main reasons for the Tattoo program, which will be extremely limited in numbers.

Tattoo- early 2010
EPIC S35 Stage 2- NAB 2010 (or shortly after)
EPIC S35 Stage 3 & 4- pre-summer 2010

Scarlet 2/3" (both models)- May-June 2010
Scarlet S35- Summer 2010

This presupposes that there are no other major surprises....."



A slippage into 'late summer' was being spoken of on the forum after the recent LA event, but anything other than the above is speculation..... until RED say otherwise.
I doubt if you'll hear anything before NAB, so RED Day Las Vegas is probably the next opportunity for an update.

[Andrew Rieger]

I imagine that is wrong at this point, NAB is practically here and Tattoo has not started yet. I would expect Scarlet in late summer, with the S35 sometime around Christmas possibly early 2011.

[David Rasberry]

Scarlet S35 may have to wait a bit until the initial sales rush for Epics is past. Depends on how fast they can ramp up sensor production to match demand.

[David Rasberry]

We don't really know if Tattoo has started or not. Those may be under NDA's for a bit. They were only going to do 20 of them according to the last announcement. Then again they could still be dialing in the sensor and processing in the lab before releasing them. NAB should tell the tale, one way or the other. They should at least have some working Epic protos there.

[Andrew Rieger]

I know they do have some working Epic prototypes (The Charlie shot came from an Epic) so NAB should be the official release.

[Rick Burnett]

I believe I read here that the 2/3 will be slightly less light sensitive than the larger sensors. Which makes sense. One thing to consider is that with the smaller pitch, the area taken up by the non-light sensitive logic that is associated with the pixel will be larger in ratio. Further, not sure if Red uses the multiple photodiode approach, but in some larger sensors, multiple diodes are used per pixel so that intelligent noise/process differentiations can be dealt with at the pixel level.

[David Rasberry]

It will be interesting to see how well the 2/3" does.

[Subhadip Sen]

I think we are running a good 4 months behind that last official schedule posted. We are probably looking at September 2010 for the 2/3" Scarlets. That said, it is possible the Scarlet development team have had better luck than the Epic, so perhaps they will be ready with the Scarlets around the same time as Epic. It could also work the other way. I suppose NAB 2010 will give us a good idea of where development stands.

[Jeremy Torrie]

I fully expect some kind of info blast soon pertaining to Red developments across the board.

It's been awfully quiet for the last week, the posts are minimal, and NAB is not far away now.

[Andrew Rieger]

I believe I read here that the 2/3 will be slightly less light sensitive than the larger sensors. Which makes sense. One thing to consider is that with the smaller pitch, the area taken up by the non-light sensitive logic that is associated with the pixel will be larger in ratio. Further, not sure if Red uses the multiple photodiode approach, but in some larger sensors, multiple diodes are used per pixel so that intelligent noise/process differentiations can be dealt with at the pixel level.

I do not think it will be slightly less sensitive unless Red is doing something amazing with the 2/3 sensor. I remain optimistic but expect the low light to be at least half that of the S35 chip. The 2/3 has a way smaller sensor area not to mention smaller pixels to up the resolution, both factors contribute to low light (but are not the only factors, I know). Expect it to be excellent in comparison to other 2/3 chips but it will not be in the league of S35. There will be areas where the 2/3 will be better than the S35, such as steadicam work, on cranes and car rigs and deep focus work, not to mention the ultra fast frame rate which I imagine will be very useful. There are too many tradeoffs with both system so honestly, I say get both brains since the modules are interchangeable.

[Gary Paul Walker]

There are too many tradeoffs with both system so honestly, I say get both brains since the modules are interchangeable.

I think thats the seduction of Reds modular systems, different brains for different needs, and everything else fits!

If only they'd listen to my coffee-dispenser-module idea...

I think I'm planning to go about things backwards- getting an S35 first, and then maybe an additional 2/3 brain later. Higher frame rates are always the trade off with the S35, but honestly I've never liked using them. Its personal taste, but slow-mo has never been my cup of tea, particularly in short/feature films, often it just (to me) looks a bit cliched.
Having said that, Im sure some of my clients are going to want the higher frame rates (beyond what I can get away with in Optical Flow), so I guess I'll get a 2/3 at some point.

[Sami S]

I say get both brains since the modules are interchangeable.

I've been thinking of doing exactly this. But arent many of the modules of the 2/3" integrated on the brain? The audio and the recording module at least right?

[Andrew Rieger]

I've been thinking of doing exactly this. But arent many of the modules of the 2/3" integrated on the brain? The audio and the recording module at least right?

I was talking about the 2/3 cinema (with the miniprime mount).

[David Rasberry]

I've been thinking of doing exactly this. But arent many of the modules of the 2/3" integrated on the brain? The audio and the recording module at least right?

No the fixed is just like any other brain except for the lens. Same features and connections. On board audio for all the brains is 2 balanced inputs w/phantom power on 1/8" TRS mini-jacks. The recording module you see in the pictures is the side CF module that mounts to any of them.

[David Rasberry]

I do not think it will be slightly less sensitive unless Red is doing something amazing with the 2/3 sensor. I remain optimistic but expect the low light to be at least half that of the S35 chip. The 2/3 has a way smaller sensor area not to mention smaller pixels to up the resolution, both factors contribute to low light (but are not the only factors, I know). Expect it to be excellent in comparison to other 2/3 chips but it will not be in the league of S35. There will be areas where the 2/3 will be better than the S35, such as steadicam work, on cranes and car rigs and deep focus work, not to mention the ultra fast frame rate which I imagine will be very useful. There are too many tradeoffs with both system so honestly, I say get both brains since the modules are interchangeable.

Newest gen Sony 2/3" cameras are running in the 800 to 1600 native ISO range. I expect no more than a 1 to 1-1/2 stop difference between 2/3" and S35 Scarlets.

[Thomas Koch]

I think we'll get an update again at the Vegas RED DAY. Hoping hey show off a Tatoo and talk about the program a bit. That's the key right now. Getting step one done, so RED can move to step 2 and 3 and 4. With all the little things that go into this BIG system, once they get it all up and working from a module perspective, I am hoping the ramp up in scale will be easier.