Suggest Monitors for Grading... [Archive]

Jeff Kilgroe

03-25-2010, 10:39 PM

Panasonic 12 series plasma. Unless you have SERIOUS amounts to spend, look no further. http://panasonic.net/proplasma/lineup/

Er... only the 58" is worth considering. Unless you have DEEEP pockets to buy the larger panels. The 58" is $2500 though, so can't complain. Other than that, the 50" and 42" 12-series are only available in 720p panels! The 1080p PF11 series has been discontinued, but there are still plenty out there to buy. But I can't recommend them, they are two panel generations behind current. HDMI interface for the Pro panels is still v1.2a and 8bit only.

If you're going plasma, I recommend the new Panasonic TC-PxxVT25 series (V25 series in PAL countries). They have the current panel (13th generation) with far superior DR, contrast and black levels. 50" ships soon, 54" and 65" will ship later this summer. There *SHOULD* be new Pro series monitors using these new panels soon, but no official announcements yet. I'm hoping to see something at NAB. But honestly, the only features the VT25 is missing vs. the "pro" model is the interchangeable interface boards. IMO, I have a hard time considering a $2400 HD-SDI card when it costs as much as the 50" VT25 monitor or as much as the 58" PF12 monitor. That's nuts... The AJA HDMI to 3G HD-SDI is $550 and supports 1080p at all standard frame rates as well as both 10bit and 12bit color input w/ 10bit output.

Gabriele Turchi

03-26-2010, 09:07 PM

There Are still no optinoal card for the pro series that support 10 bit HDMI?
Ps:is tgr pf 12th series a 10 bit panel?

Thanks
g

Jason Samuel

03-29-2010, 03:11 AM

How do the Panasonic VT25 models compare to some of the Samsungs like the C7000 or the B8000 or B8500? Do you have any idea when the VT25 will be available? I believe Samsung also has some new models around the corner (9000 series I believe)...

Thoughts?

Luis Otero

04-02-2010, 01:17 AM

Hey guys,

What about Dell U2410, 24". Sounds like a quick solution with minimal investment...:banned:
(http://webmail.cfl.rr.com/do/redirect?url=http%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Fw s%252FeBayISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526item%253D1504 29280679%2526ssPageName%253DADME%253AB%253AWNARL%2 53AUS%253A1123)

Martin Fissher

04-07-2010, 09:43 AM

I'd really like to know about the Dell too. Anyone tried it ?

I've recently read an article in the Cow that states that HP LP2480zx Dream Color is the way to go for low budget. Matched with the AJA Kona 3 and the HDP2.

http://library.creativecow.net/garchow_jeremy/HP_DreamColor_CRT_Replacement/comments

Dave Blackham

04-07-2010, 09:56 AM

Panasonic 12 series plasma. Unless you have SERIOUS amounts to spend, look no further. http://panasonic.net/proplasma/lineup/

I agree but not in the smaller sizes. To improve it add a Davio, then you don't need to look further....

But Jeff is also right about the Panasonic TC-PxxVT25 series, They are interesting. I don't yet know if the TC-PxxVT25 series has the 'studio mode' facilities and 1:1 pixel mode. Studio mode increases contrast with out causing white out. Theres more info on this board to check out these features.

michael zaletel

04-07-2010, 11:39 AM

The least expensive broadcast quality solution is a used Apple 23" Cinema Display and the Matrox MXO:

http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/mxo/workflow/

-michael

John Tissavary

04-07-2010, 12:28 PM

I agree but not in the smaller sizes. To improve it add a Davio, then you don't need to look further....

But Jeff is also right about the Panasonic TC-PxxVT25 series, take your pick

Davio is unnecessary if you're feeding the signal from Scratch, which has monitoring LUT capabilities from 1d matrices to 3d cubes.

Dave Blackham

04-07-2010, 12:59 PM

Davio is unnecessary if you're feeding the signal from Scratch, which has monitoring LUT capabilities from 1d matrices to 3d cubes.

Yes, thats quite right. What i should have said is the Pana monitor overshoot rec 709 slightly and dont have the tools to deal with profesional line up internal so some sort of out board means of apply a LUT is needed.

Jason Samuel

04-19-2010, 12:09 AM

OK.. so after NAB, I'm ready to pull the trigger.. Now, mind you I am on a budget and my jobs are pretty low paying at the moment, but I'm hoping to upgrade my rid in an attempt to raise my prices.

Am I better off buying a Series 12 Panasonic with the HD-SDI card? or something along the lines of a Flanders Scientific 17" or 24" and if I go for the 24" should I get the 10-bit model (which is $10,000) or will I be fine with the 8-Bit panel in 17" or 24" for now then upgrade when the work picks up to a serious enough level where i need it.

Now, I know there's a big difference between the Panasonic and the Flanders.. but I really need both a client viewing monitor and a color accurate screen for grading..

Just trying to figure out where the best place to spend my money is at the moment in order to bring more clients and money in.

RRafael

04-23-2010, 01:50 AM

I see a lot minitors this is my list. For color reference real 10bit panel monitor
BARCO
CINETAL
Ecinema
EZIO
FS
TV LOGIC

Jason Samuel

04-23-2010, 01:52 AM

Which is the least expensive from this list..

I have an HP Dreamcolor.. I think im going to have to get the HD-SDI to HDMI converter and start taking advantage of the 10 bit panel...

jimhare

04-23-2010, 02:36 AM

Jason Samuel

04-23-2010, 07:19 AM

Do I want the Aja Hi5 or the Aja Hi5 3G to use with my Dreamcolor?

RRafael

04-23-2010, 02:22 PM

dean merrill

04-29-2010, 08:17 AM

Another consideration is the ongoing cost of keeping it calibrated. Either gaining the experience yourself or hiring someone to come in.

Actually, this is something I would like to know about. How does everyone deal with maintaining calibration?

I would love to know the best route to go on this. looking that the panasonic website, the plasmas look like that have some presets for "studio"... not sure if this has anything to do with it being properly calibrated. I would love to get a grading monitor that is under $3k.

Harcharan Singh

05-01-2010, 05:36 AM

Hi,
At your budget range I think HP dreamcolor with HP calibration tool kit is the best bet.
We use it with Display port out from our Quadro5800 thru Scratch and have acheived good results.
I hope it help.
Thks
(Check out creativecow for HP Dreamcolor preview)

Dan Boyd

05-01-2010, 06:37 AM

I like my Flanders Scientific monitor but use a Panasonic plasma for black level since the blacks are impossible to get right on without throwing everything else off. Careful with off axis viewing too since a few degrees make a big difference. The built in scopes are great.
I was very impressed with the TV Logic monitors too but they are pricey.

Mathias Erichsen

05-01-2010, 07:17 AM

Gaston Fazio

10-26-2010, 09:01 PM

I use a DreamColor LP2480zx 12bit display thru displayport for the Scratch workspace and a Panasonic 2550 as client, and a regular $1k Panasonic 42" plasma for framing reference ( color/contrast looks better than expected )
Leader 5750 instrument.

This works just fine for us

Gaston Fazio

Steve Shaw

11-03-2010, 01:26 PM

For any display, calibration is critically important.

There have been various posts on this, but I would suggest looking at our LightSpace CMS. One of the most effective colour management systems out there - even if I do say so my self.

Whether you go with LightSpace, or another CMS product, do make sure it's a professional system, and can generate 3D LUTs - unlike may of the consumer systems out there.

danibam

10-09-2011, 11:05 PM

Old thread ... but a very important discussion !!

HP Dreamcolor seems to be gone from the picture as it cannot be found anywhere.
What are real color grading alternatives today?

Kirk.Attard

10-09-2011, 11:38 PM

the dell U2410 seems very interesting. I think coupled with a Matrox MX02le it should produce good results for less than 2k. !0 bit panel with the ability to be calibrated through the Matrox. Further more there is no need for converters as the Matrox outputs 10 bit over HDMI. Once they settle their thunderbolt support it should be very well worth considering. What do you guys think?

Liam Hall

10-10-2011, 12:44 AM

Hi! :)
I´ve graded TV commercials on a 40" Samsung TV. Dvi-hdmi directly from Mac pro. So far it has looked good on TV, but is this overly risky and/or totaly wrong?
Is the use of all the diferent I/O cards, adapters and expensive monitors primarily for cinema grades or do you think its necessary for web/TV grades too?

Mathias

Yes, that's wrong. You have no way of judging if your TV is set up correctly or is receiving the correct signal. The reason we use in/out cards is they have proper connectivity and deliver consistent calibrated colour using a wide variety of codecs. There are a number of workflows for cinema, but ultimately you will judge your grade on a cinema screen, not a TV monitor. For web, use a calibrated computer monitor - there are lots of cheap tools available to help calibrate computer monitors; Spyder3, Colormunki, Pantone etc.

Steve Shaw

10-10-2011, 01:22 AM

I can't find any guarantee that the Dell panel is a 10 bit display - 8 bit is mentioned in a couple of places, with 'dithering' to enhance colour representation...

Colour processing is 12 bit but if the display is only 8 bit that's not a lot of help.

Also, graphics card calibration is NOT able to perform gamut control, as the VCGT is 1D LUT based only. For 'real' calibration you need 3D LUTs (see LightSpace CMS on the Light Illusion website for more info on this).

The only way to perform real calibration for professional applications is to use a monitor with 3D LUT capability built in, or an external LUT box - HDlink Pro, Pluto, Davio - with an external calibration system (LightSpace CMS) and a good probe - the new i1 Display Pro is great value, and very accurate...

Dave Blackham

10-10-2011, 12:18 PM

Also any one see of know about these displays yet, apparently speced with advanced color controls for broadcast line up and has 3D support.

Panasonic Launches TH-65VX300U Professional Plasma Display
New 3D-Ready Display is an Ideal Solution for Post-Production Editing and Home Theater

Marc Wielage

10-10-2011, 11:16 PM

The only way to perform real calibration for professional applications is to use a monitor with 3D LUT capability built in, or an external LUT box - HDlink Pro, Pluto, Davio - with an external calibration system (LightSpace CMS) and a good probe - the new i1 Display Pro is great value, and very accurate...
Steve knows what he's talking about here.

I know of a major, big-time post house here in LA that is running 12 (count 'em) Panasonic 50" Plasma 20-series displays with Cinetal Davio boxes, doing million-dollar network and cinema projects every day of the week. Total cost for each system I think is about $10K, which is pretty cheap as this stuff goes. 32" CRT HD monitors used to cost about $40,000, not too long ago. VTP in LA (http://www.myvtp.com/cinetal.aspx) is one of many retailers that will sell Panasonic plasmas and the Davio box as a package.

I personally think 65" is a little crazy-big for an average, medium-sized control room. Anything bigger than that, I'd say go with a projector.

BTW: the real trick is to have the right calibration tools, and the knowledge to use them. And also how to keep the display 100% consistent day-to-day.

danibam

10-11-2011, 04:28 AM

Anyone used or heard about the Autocue T series monitors? ... They are SDI monitors ...

Dave Blackham

10-11-2011, 06:39 AM

Steve knows what he's talking about here.

I know of a major, big-time post house here in LA that is running 12 (count 'em) Panasonic 50" Plasma 20-series displays with Cinetal Davio boxes, doing million-dollar network and cinema projects every day of the week. Total cost for each system I think is about $10K, which is pretty cheap as this stuff goes. 32" CRT HD monitors used to cost about $40,000, not too long ago. VTP in LA (http://www.myvtp.com/cinetal.aspx) is one of many retailers that will sell Panasonic plasmas and the Davio box as a package.

I personally think 65" is a little crazy-big for an average, medium-sized control room. Anything bigger than that, I'd say go with a projector.

BTW: the real trick is to have the right calibration tools, and the knowledge to use them. And also how to keep the display 100% consistent day-to-day.

Your right, and I think calibration is more important than the device it self. Steve lines our monitors up and I have the highest respect for him.

Im hoping to get one of the new displays in to check out. We use the Pana series for both 2D and 3D at the moment. the new tools for line up will be a huge benefit, I not yet sure if we will ditch out LUT boxes but I think this will be a big step forward. I wish there were 42 and 46 and 50 inch versions available.

Johnny Friday

10-11-2011, 07:33 AM

FSI 2461 is great

Blair S. Paulsen

10-11-2011, 10:10 AM

I had the opportunity to attend a symposium on reference monitors recently and got a good look at the leading contenders.

Dolby has a 42" 12bit display with extended dynamic range that raises the bar, of course it's rather pricey... :-(
http://www.dolby.com/professional/products/monitors/professional-reference-monitor-prm4200.html

Sony is doing OLEDs for the pro market that have amazing black levels but they are also expensive and AFAIK only available in 24" or smaller sizes...

TV Logic, Flanders, Boland, Marshall, etc all have professional solutions at various price points and sizes. Depending on how you like to work, whether you have a stand alone scope, outboard LUT box, how you intend to manage calibration, etc may be as important to selecting a display as the image itself. IMO, only the Dolby and Sony OLED are state of the art.

If you have the physical space and a non-contact probe calibration plan (in house or by hire) then the Panny Pro plasmas are the best bang for the buck, as proven by their penetration into the post community. If you expect to have more than one person looking at the same monitor on a regular basis, the off axis viewing properties of the plasmas is a HUGE plus.

Sorry to hear that DreamColors are hard to find. For situations where a plasma is impractical I still consider it the best option under $2,000 USD.

Cheers - #19

Marc Wielage

10-11-2011, 07:08 PM

Dolby has a 42" 12bit display with extended dynamic range that raises the bar, of course it's rather pricey... :-(
http://www.dolby.com/professional/products/monitors/professional-reference-monitor-prm4200.html
$40,000, when last I checked. But it's very good.

Sorry to hear that DreamColors are hard to find. For situations where a plasma is impractical I still consider it the best option under $2,000 USD.
Note that HP is getting out of that business, as announced a month or two ago. And the DreamColors still have the problem of bad off-axis viewing. They're great for VFX and animation artists sitting directly in front of the monitor, but bad if more than two people need to see the monitor.

The Panasonic Plasmas are not perfect and do have some issues. But good or bad, they seem to be quickly becoming the HD standard here in LA.

Fredrik Harreschou

10-12-2011, 03:16 AM

The Sony PVM2541 (OLED) is $6,100.00, U.S. List Price. It´s in the Production monitor category, but amazing for it´s price.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-oledmonitors/product-PVM2541/

Brian Iannone

11-19-2011, 04:18 PM

I've noticed a lot of users suggesting plasma displays for use with color grading. I've always found the color on plasma to be oversaturated. Is plasma really a good choice for grading?

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 12:48 AM

All plasmas out of the box are indeed well over gamut...

With 3D LUT based calibration they can be brought into accurate range, and can then be rather good... except that they all suffer with the power management issue.

If you can deal with the power management issues, and have the tools for accuarte calibration ( I would obviosuly suggest LightSpace CMS, a probe - i1 Dispaly Pro - and a 3D LUT box - HDlink Pro) they can be rather good.

Dave Blackham

11-20-2011, 01:00 AM

http://panasonic.net/prodisplays/products/50bt300/index.html

http://panasonic.net/prodisplays/products/42bt300/index.html

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 01:15 AM

Hi Dave,

The broadcast defaults for those displays are not accurate (when we've tested them), but as said above can be made accurate ;o)

D Fuller

11-20-2011, 01:47 AM

Hi Dave,

The broadcast defaults for those displays are not accurate (when we've tested them), but as said above can be made accurate ;o)

Steve, you must see a lot of setups. I'm interested to know what your choice would be for a grading monitor at the low end of the cost scale - for an individual, not a facility.

Dave Blackham

11-20-2011, 02:35 AM

Hi Dave,

The broadcast defaults for those displays are not accurate (when we've tested them), but as said above can be made accurate ;o)

I agree. A HD link and proper line up and LUT is still needed but they are another step forward for this range of displays.

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 02:50 AM

Steve, you must see a lot of setups. I'm interested to know what your choice would be for a grading monitor at the low end of the cost scale - for an individual, not a facility.

Yup, we see loads of different displays...

What I really don't like are any of the lower-end LCDs that are sold as being 'broadcast' or similar - I've not found one that is any good, and that includes the likes of FSI, and especially the old Dreamcolor, which was appalling for accurate colour work!

I am working with Penta on improving their range of displays, and they are now looking rather good - but then I would say that...

Penta aside, and understanding the power saving issues, I have to say Plasmas are probably the best low-end displays, so long as they are accurately calibrated with external 3D LUTs.

I'd ignore the so-called 'broadcast' plasmas, and get the cheaper range that use the same panels and spend the savings on external calibration kit.

Oh, and don't believe the 10bit claims - no plasma screen can get that many bits to the display, and the difference between those expensive displays and the cheaper ranges is not (IMHO) worth the money.

Accurate calibration is.

Dave Blackham

11-20-2011, 02:55 AM

So you recon the Pana 30 series is prefered over the 300 series both with external LUT applied ?

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 03:11 AM

Not preferred, but not worth the extra for the 300 as you are basically negating the inbuilt calibration.

With both externally calibrated and sat side-by-side the difference is bugger all...

Martin Stevens

11-20-2011, 09:17 AM

Not preferred, but not worth the extra for the 300 as you are basically negating the inbuilt calibration.

With both externally calibrated and sat side-by-side the difference is bugger all...

Steve,

What is the Power Management issue you talk about in some of your posts?

As in, what issue does it cause with Panasonic Plasmas etc.?

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 09:35 AM

All plasmas have a power reduction process included as standard - it's a legal requirement of some sort?

It reduces the power to the screen as the overall screen brightness increases...

So, as the overall image brightness increases the power to the screen reduces, making the image less bright.

This can be a problem for accurate image display as well as being a key understanding for calibration.

Johnny Friday

11-20-2011, 09:35 AM

FSI 2461W
http://www.flandersscientific.com/index/LM2461W

....for the $$ it's fantastic....if running out of redrocket you need dual to single 3g connector.

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 09:37 AM

Sorry, they are just not a good display...

M Most

11-20-2011, 09:41 AM

Sorry, they are just not a good display...

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I would point out that in all fairness, many, many people disagree with that assessment. And most of those people are using it for "real" work and getting excellent results. So while I'm sure Steve has his reasons for saying that, it's only an opinion, and one that is not widely shared.

Johnny Friday

11-20-2011, 09:43 AM

Sorry, they are just not a good display...

what is not a good display? some plasmas you were referring to or the FSI? can you elaborate?

Edit: i've gone from my 50" Panasonic 25 series via Matrox I/O on FCP and to the FSI and my "in the dirt" opinion out of the gate is i get far better results that match best for broadcast via my FSI monitor.

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 10:05 AM

I have attempted to calibrate a number of FSI displays - none calibrate well, and are very poor out of the box, and being poor out of the box makes them difficult to calibrate after the event...

But, the power management of plasmas can be a problem too. The choice is yours...

However, an externally calibrated plasma (power management aside, as this is not a problem in most normal use situations) is often better than most LCD displays, especially the FSI display I have had the misfortune to come up against.

But. as Mike says, this is my view!

Brandon J.F.

11-20-2011, 10:38 AM

Steve, your posts in this thread have been very helpful. Thank you for sharing your expertise. I have an LG60 PS8000 THX plasma I'd love to use for grading with Resolve. How well do you think it would work with an HDlink Pro, i1 Display Pro and LightSpace CMS?

Dave Blackham

11-20-2011, 10:48 AM

Im having problems finding an Display port to HDMI 1.4 adaptor for the HD link. I can find Display port (full size) to mini display port adapter (which i think passes 1.4 compliant data) thena mini display port to HDMI 1.4 adaptor. Its only needed for dual stream 3D. Any ideas where to find one with out the back to back adaptor solution above.

Steve Shaw

11-20-2011, 10:54 AM

To be fair, all plasmas are just about the same - if you run them in un-calibrated mode (wide gamut) they are all basically the same (very wide brush used for that statement, but I have yet to see a viable variation). So. can be calibrated to a known standard externally.

The THX bit is a waste of money - I have yet to see a THX certified display that actually meets standards.
(Sorry, I don;t mean to be negative about THX, but they do seem to allow their name to be associated with some very poor displays - I guess money rules?)

I recently tried to calibtare a THX certified JVC DLA projector - impossible as it was so far off of acceptable standard as to be uncalibratable... (that's probably not a real word!).

So, to answer you question directly, is should be fine!

Brandon J.F.

11-20-2011, 11:21 AM

Thanks for the quick reply. I really appreciate it!

Gary Schiff

02-03-2012, 01:35 PM

Saw panasonic's displays at NAB last year, wasn't too impressed. I'm a much bigger fan of Sony and Dolby's

jake blackstone

02-03-2012, 01:52 PM

I'm a much bigger fan of Dolby's
Who isn't? Do you have spare $40k laying around?:-)

Kevin Rasmussen

02-10-2012, 02:55 PM

So on the subject of calibration? There seems to be a lot of products out there covering a wide price range, is there a specific product that wins for computer monitor calibration?
I have experience in the photography world with Spyder products which worked great. I have heard that the HP Dreamcolor tool is tricky to get working with monitors other than the Dreamcolor specifically... and the Spyder4Elite system is cheaper than the HP Dreamcolor calibration tool.

Bob Gruen

02-10-2012, 03:33 PM

NEC Multisync PA271W w/ calibrator.

The NEC is a pretty nice monitor and does 10 bit (although I'm only running 8 bit at the moment). It sports an onboard processing engine and multiple LUTs along with a software system to switch between them (I have mine set to Video / REC709). Unlike most calibration systems the calibrator does not alter the signal to the monitor, rather it updates the engine's settings in the monitor. The NEC can be had at a few different sizes; I have the 27 centered in front of my keyboard with 2 15" 'wing' monitors on each side. It also has a 2 channel USB keyboard/mouse switch built in.

I think it's a better choice to the DreamColor as the DC hasn't been updated in a few years and still sports the intro pricing while other competitors have entered the market. When compared to the NEC the DC is way overpriced. The 24" NEC is cheap enough that I'd not hesitate to take it on set.

Bob

Andrew Wagnitz

04-09-2012, 10:06 PM

Great post thanks!

Steve Shaw

04-10-2012, 12:13 AM

Kevin, with probes you really pay your money and take your chances.

The most cost effective probe for its level of accuracy/cost is probably the X-Rite i1 Display Pro - we have a lot of customers using that.

For better accuracy and faster calibration the Hubble is great.

For the best possible accuracy the Jeti 1211 and Klein K-10 are hard to better, along with the PR-655...

Personally I use the Jeti, Hubble and i1 Display Pro, depending on the job.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Shaw

04-10-2012, 12:23 AM

Bob, I've never used the NEC displays, but they says they use ICC profiles for calibration.

If so, it is possible the 3D LUTs are actually 1D data, as ICC profiles when used for display calibration do not use 3D data (in graphics cards applications).

I'm obviously not 100% on the way NEC uses ICC profiles, but it's worth checking if you can.

The way to check is to see if saturation can be controlled - can you make the display mono via the LUTs for example?

In normal use ICC profiles used for display calibration cannot control saturation, so cannot control colour gamut.

The other way to have a quick check of this is how many colour patches are used during calibration - if grey scale plus RGB primary only the same is probably true - no gamut control. If a complex selection of colours is used (not just pure RGB) it's more likely that gamut control is possible.

I will see if I can get my hands on a display to check as well.

Cheers,

Steve

Christian Stoehr

10-21-2012, 07:55 PM

I am about to buy a color monitor for grading and am seriously looking at the Flanders Scientific 2461 $5300 with shipping and already calibrated. I read here from Steve that they are poorly calibrated out of the box, but I belief they recently acquired a high end calibration system, and offer free recalibration at any time if needed.

Should I be looking at any other monitors in this price range, or maybe a little less, so I can also afford part of a Tangent Panel :)