IBC '07 Impressions [Archive]

PaulClements

09-08-2007, 05:47 AM

First of all, this is the first chance I've had to get to a computer. I was going to write something up yesterday but I lost my mobile at Heathrow (Managed to retrieve it on my return) and as such couldn't get online to post.

Anyway. The tent as you can see in Anders post in OT is quite a bit smaller than NAB. Just outside it is two working cameras on O'Connor heads with a few of the production accessories inside the lit displays. Inside the tent they were displaying the workflow of RedAlert! and RedCine.

Initially I have to say I was a little disappointed, no exciting news, very few accessories or lenses (Only the 18-50mm was there) and unfortunately there wasn't a working LCD or EVF, though Ted did tell us it would be updated over the weekend so for those visiting today until Monday hopefully you will be able to get an idea of monitoring using the EVF. As it was we had to look at what was being recorded through a couple of monitors the guys had picked up in Holland. There was no new printed material than the stuff available from NAB either.

We got there first thing and listened to the talk in the tent. There was a small crowd but everyone could see well enough, it was certainly no repeat of the NAB queues due mainly I suppose to the lack of 'Crossing the line' being shown in the tent but also because there was probably less people attending the venue.

All in all the most of the day was fairly unexciting I must admit. The only really interesting point that I had clarified by Ted is that Redcine will be a freely distributed program for none owners of the camera. Something which I for one was unsure about.

In truth having been messed about by meetings on Wednesday and Thursday I had had to drive 160 miles at 1.30am get, on a plane at 6.30am and then make my way over to RAI and wait about, I was really tired and frankly forgot most of the things I wanted to talk to the team about. I'd only had 2 hours sleep the night before.

The real buzz came later in the day with the talk from Ted which (Sorry Ted) I could hardly keep myself awake for, not because it was boring but because it was dark and my body was giving up the chase!!! However I was soon woken up by the showing of 'Crossing the Line'. I believe it was the first time it has been shown 4K on a large cinema screen and even Ted said it was awesome to watch it that way even though he'd seen it a dozen times or more. The cinema at RAI is very good and the place was packed (And they have a tonne of seats there so it's saying something, about 5 times the amount of people that attended the Genesis lecture beforehand). If memory serves, the viewers at NAB watched on a large 4k display, correct? Anyway watching the first showing in that environment was a great moment and my impressions of the performance of the camera was very good. Frankly it was as though you were watching a movie and that at the end of the day is what it's about, it does the job, of that there is no doubt. Even Stephen Williams, whom I spent a lot of the day being dragged from pillar to post with (My legs aren't happy with you lol!), was happy with the results, I'd even go so far as to say pleasantly suprised perhaps!!! :)

Frankly I'd say that most people that frequent this forum, more often than they should - like myself :), will find little information they didn't know (unless they ask any of the questions I forgot too lol), other than having the ability to get up close and personal with the camera or two. But watching Crossing the Line in that surrounding was a true gem to behold and well worth going just for that.

I flew out of amsterdam and than had to drive the 160 miles back from heathrow returning at 1.30am - It was a very very long and tiring 24 hours. I only woke up an hour or two ago at just before 12pm!!

Anyway cheers Red Team and to all those going, make sure you're wide awake for the CTL showing!

Jeremy Hughes

09-08-2007, 06:10 AM

So no pocket camera? Awww... Well, Jim said NAB already.

Thanks for the information Paul.

Seth Larney

09-08-2007, 06:20 AM

Nice report Paul :) Thanks for the info.

Casey Green

09-08-2007, 06:27 AM

Thx Paul!

Jeff Mustaman

09-08-2007, 07:50 AM

Crossing the line was great!! I was waiting for a long time to see this, and now to have seen it in full 4K was really amazing. There really wasn't anything new presented that I didn't already know but still, hearing the whole Red story again and then watch the 4K you really get the feeling that anything is possible.

At the booth of finalcut there where some demos ready for working with Redcode, this was really nice to see.
(Don't know if that was also the case at NAB)

I understand that it wasn't to excited for Paul, but if you couldn't make it to the NAB, then there is still enough excitement. :)

Jim Arthurs

09-08-2007, 09:08 AM

Thanks Paul, I've enjoyed hearing from you and Anders and Stephen.

At NAB is was 4K projection, not a display, in a temp theatre as part of the RED booth. There were demos of FCP working with RED footage directly, and working EVF,etc. Sorry to hear there was nothing actually new, but I guess that means everything is being focused on delivery right now...

Stephen Williams

09-08-2007, 09:27 AM

Hi All,

I was there & most impressed with the 4K images displayed, Jim & the Red team are clearly delivering what they have promised, these are indeed exciting times!

I even got a chance to hold a camera!

Stephen

PaulClements

09-08-2007, 09:35 AM

Haha, you're going to put that picture about as much as possible aren't you. Brian Ferguson wasn't too happy about letting Stephen have a go at handheld because he thought everyone would want a go... we did, but no one else said so because he looked like a man who wanted to leave!

Stephen Williams

09-08-2007, 10:00 AM

Hi Paul,

I had been asking to hand hold the camera since 11.00, an hour before the show opened, hoping I can play with a 300mm lens on a camera tomorrow!

Stephen

Joe Carney

09-08-2007, 10:43 AM

Did I read correctly, that non RED owners will be able to get RedCine for free?

Stephen Williams

09-08-2007, 11:32 AM

Hi,

From what I understand yes, & you will have to sign a license agreement

Stephen

PaulClements

09-08-2007, 03:20 PM

Hi Zeke,

Yes, I asked Ted about whether it will be freely distributed and he said it would be. It would come with a typical End-User agreement that most software comes with. It will be available from red.com for anyone to download. He also said that the beta version will go out to camera owners first. I guess that way they'll be told of any bugs before general release and get feedback on possible improvements.

Stephen, let me know of your impressions of the 300mm.

Paul

Costelloe Michael

09-08-2007, 03:34 PM

Stephen,

Don't put that photo about too much as it shows you are not a natural camera operator...:usd:

Mike C

Stephen Williams

09-08-2007, 03:39 PM

Hi Zeke,

Stephen, let me know of your impressions of the 300mm.

Paul

Hi Paul,

It was in the cabinet again today & the stand was quite busy. Hopefully tomorrow I will get a chance to play with the 300mm & EVF.

Stephen

Unwounded

09-08-2007, 03:58 PM

What monitors were they using at the red booth?

Fergus Meiklejohn

09-08-2007, 04:18 PM

I was disappointed with the RED booth. Ted and the team were working very hard etc but they needed more staff, the stand was real small and there was little really to see. I played with pull focussing the nice 18-50, got answers from helpful staff and left. I mean I couldn't even pick up the battery to feel how heavy it was, never mind getting a feel of the rig on my shoulder. I got the impression that RED as a company wasn't really in the zone, although individually the guys were working hard and respect to them. Where was a functioning evf? It's a bit weird..

Incidentally I had a go with Dalsa's mammoth beast, and wow that viewfinder is SWEET: it sort of goes 3D on you.. Also, did anyone catch DLP's 3D TV monitor; showing a 3D version of Star Wars (4th..)? That was worth the trip alone! Totally awesome. I want one in my flat NOW :help:
www.dlp.com/3D

:biggrin:

I didn't like Crossing the Line at all. It looked totally plastic and fake. Is that the grade, the production design, the video effects, or what? It concerned me because it is not a look I would ever like to use. The resolution was there... oh yes!! But it wasn't pretty.. IMHO of course..:unsure:

Sean R.

09-08-2007, 04:34 PM

Jannard

09-08-2007, 04:38 PM

Joe Carney

09-08-2007, 04:42 PM

Fergus Meiklejohn

09-08-2007, 04:46 PM

That was a quite the criticism on a Peter Jackson short, that took 2 days to shoot. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. The beauty of working with RAW footage is if that isn't the look you like, that's not the look your stuck with. You can create as many feels as your little post producing heart desires. I personally really liked what Peter Jackson did with prototype RED Ones in 2 days of shooting.

Sorry you didn't have the best of times at the RED booth, but like you stated-those RED Reps are working their butts off over there just like they have been for months here in the states before departing.
I'm not sure how to reply to that, I don't feel the amount of time he spent filming it is relevant, although the amount of time they had to grade it probably is. Anyway is this everyone's experience: that shooting RAW on RED or a DALSA leaves you with a neutral image that you can do anything with in post?
I actually just started another thread on this subject. It's very early days of course, but the question of whether a camera like RED has it's own look is a very interesting one I think.

As for everyone working their butts off, well of course! I already said so. Respect to them. And I had a fine time at the RED booth: the guys made every effort to answer my questions.. I still say it was a little underwhelming in terms of the kit available and the customer's access to it.

Fergus Meiklejohn

09-08-2007, 04:50 PM

We have a very small company. Very small. And we had to split the team up because we are delivering cameras at the same time as IBC. The dates couldn't have been worse. Because we only could send a small crew, we chose the small tent. The small tent means only a few items.

Sorry if we disappointed anyone. But if we delayed shipping the 1st cameras, it would have been worse...

Jim
Yeah of course!! I guess you had a hell of a job following on your NAB triumph this year. And for anyone who wasn't there, TED's presentation was Mobbed, comparing very favourably with every other camera companies presentations..

Adam Jeal

09-08-2007, 09:59 PM

Yeah of course!! I guess you had a hell of a job following on your NAB triumph this year. And for anyone who wasn't there, TED's presentation was Mobbed, comparing very favourably with every other camera companies presentations..

Yeah! Especially the Panavision Genesis one that was just before it! :meh:..

adam

Jannard

09-08-2007, 10:06 PM

I'm very proud of the team we did send over. But I knew I was sending them into the lion's den.

Jim

Poi Boy

09-08-2007, 10:10 PM

I for one am very glad that someone is home making cameras.
Much Aloha
to the Red teams !
-A

Matthew Lochman

09-09-2007, 01:31 AM

Every now and then I read a post and am positive it is written by someone working for one of the big Corporations, as a negative gorilla marketing attempt. I find it rather pathetic actually.

chuck colburn

09-09-2007, 04:34 AM

We don't like negative gorillas. They are such a downer and they smell bad.

Fergus Meiklejohn

09-09-2007, 05:05 AM

who's post would that be lads and which large Corporation do you have in mind? Perhaps I should bill them for my time..:watsup:

James T Mather

09-09-2007, 05:17 AM

If you don't like the image maybe you should stick with film.

mezmo

09-09-2007, 08:35 AM

Now be fair here guys,
Fergus is giving you his opinion on the "look" of Red.
and Digital Film in general. I have to agree with him
I also find it a little too sharp/hard and maybe a little uninviting.
This is of course digital acquisition to digital projection.
But taken thru a film-out procees it can look quite nice
and more like what we are all used to in the cinema. Film.
Somthing to do with smoothing out those mosiac thingies.
I'ts good to discuss the Red look, it's a healthy thing, don't be
afraid of it. It's all part of getting a new camera up and running.
It can be another great tool in the shed guys and we need plenty of em
these days to get the job done on time and on budget.
Mezmo

PaulClements

09-09-2007, 08:45 AM

Seung Han

09-09-2007, 08:54 AM

I love it when I go to the cinema and the auditorium goes dark and these words come up on the screen:

This feature film will be digitally projected. Please be patient for twenty seconds as the digital projector recalibrates.

- translated from Korean

I don't know why but HD productions projected digitally just looks right...

Aesthetically, I find it much more exciting than film. Been there, done that -- kind of feeling. But I guess we all get nostalgic for the past..:sarcasm:

sakalli

09-09-2007, 10:52 AM

my 2 cents on the footage. since we knew the conditions was made under - the schedule and the early cameras that CTL etc - i had hoped that we would be able to see more recent red footage besides CTL. we have been told many improvements have been done since. having said that, one can understand why that perhaps was not feasible.

as for judging the camera from CTL i found it also a bit difficult. first off, its not like one is used to see any footage on such a projector in 4K projected this big. there was something about the footage that wasn't right, besides the shearing, the blown highlights in some shots etc. i also understood that some of the footage had been very underexposed and recovered in post. but don't think its that either. having seen under the same viewing conditions a recent hollywood trailer made with the viper (which is a 2/3 inch 3chip ccd cam), i would be left with a feeling that CTL would not do justice to what the RED can do. so one would be curious to see what the it really is capable of. supposedly that will happen pretty soon when some of the high profile features shot on the red will be in cinemas.

wish there was more opportunities to compare footage in these conditions, though.

ill tell you this though: despite of the shortcomings of CTL, what one did see was pretty impressive nonetheless. it would already be quite clear that the quality jump from any camera in this price range (and that range would have to be pretty stretched) is rather incredible.

Michael Brennan

09-09-2007, 12:23 PM

Without HDTV specs of the camera nailed down and without a prototype B4 adapter or test footage available yet it is more likely that IBC 2008 will be a bigger year for RED than IBC 2007.

Start to revolutionise large screen production this year, small screen 2008.

Mike Brennan

Lucas Wilson

09-09-2007, 03:23 PM

...Anyway is this everyone's experience: that shooting RAW on RED or a DALSA leaves you with a neutral image that you can do anything with in post?...

A very important question, and one that is an absolutely constant source of debate.

It used to be that DPs would shoot film in a very specific way and eliminate any options in post because... well... because there wasn't any real "post" to do other than editing. Except for the crude controls of a hazeltine and various lab processes, the film looked the way it looked. O Brother Where Are Thou was the first commercially released feature to go through a "full DI" where every frame was digitally touched somehow. An awful lot of films were made before then, and lots of them looked pretty good. : )

The common wisdom now is "shoot flat," because that maximizes options in post. Well - even though I work for a company that makes a DI product - I think that thinking can really be taken to an unnatural extreme. A good DP is a good DP, and the creative partnership between the Director and DP to create the look and feel of a story I believe is frequently destroyed by the desire to "do a DI." By the time a film gets to DI, the DP is probably on the 4th or 5th job after the one in DI, and doesn't have the time to participate.

And that really is a shame. For such a long time, the role of the DP was inviolable, and that is less and less the case. I have seen so many shoots recently where the DP is little more than a technician, just called upon to make sure shots are lit as "flat" as possible. What fun is that?

Now... a lot of absolute beauty is created in a DI suite. Things that could never have happened before. O Brother Where Art Thou is a great example. That rich, textured ochre feel of most of the outdoor scenes was part of the story being told, and the atmosphere of the movie would not be the same without it.

But man... there is also so much that is just clearly a colorist gone insane. It makes me nuts sometimes. If I have to look at much more super-saturated bleach bypass hyper-color adventure hero movies, I will go insane.

Not sure what the point of this rant is other than to say that the industry is changing in huge ways right now. But new tools do not obviate old skills.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

mezmo

09-09-2007, 06:53 PM

Hi Guys,
I've seen some footage from the Arri D20 and SI camera
post film-out. It looks good, really good, although maybe a
tad on the soft side,even clipped highlights on the SI camera
look groovy, sort of like an old Kodak filmstock (5254) I used in
past. Maybe Red will solve this slightly soft post DI/film-out look.
It's going to be that much crisper to begin with.
With all these Bayer/Cmos style digital cinema cameras I think I
would be beating a path fairly quickly to a film-out. Even extracting
HD deliverables from a telecined 35mm interpos to obtain a more
filmic look. Even though the D20 and SI stuff looks good it comes
nowhere near even 3 perf S35 to my mind. But that's bigger bucks.
Can't wait to see how Red goes after some of the bigger players shooting
now complete their post paths and screen/post footage.
Impress me Red and I might buy you.
Cheers Mezmo

Tony Lorentzen

09-10-2007, 01:28 AM

The highlights of IBC for me were:
1) Seeing the RED camera and taking to Ted, Kelly and Hugo
2) Seeing 4K the Peter Jackson footage in the Big Screen Theatre
3) Seeing the Arri D20 and realizing that even though it makes pretty pictures, RED is still the right choice in all aspects
4) The REDUser meetup on saturday (props to Eirik for arranging it)

Disappointments:
1) No working EVF and LCD (major bummer!)
2) No news about upcoming RED products
3) No Jim and Jarred
4) Amsterdam parking fees ;-)

Hans von Sonntag

09-10-2007, 02:35 AM

A very important question, and one that is an absolutely constant source of debate.

And that really is a shame. For such a long time, the role of the DP was inviolable, and that is less and less the case. I have seen so many shoots recently where the DP is little more than a technician, just called upon to make sure shots are lit as "flat" as possible. What fun is that?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Good Rant!

I suppose RED can be treated treated like a 35mm camera with reversal stock that has a lot of latitude. No stupid menues, no atificial sharpening that has to be turned off, no "cine" gamma, no gain - just 320-500 ASA. No need for "flat" lighting but for someone who can create moody pictures and "paint" with light. Sure, highlights will be a concern but grain and shadows have always been a concern with film - new challenge.

Fun will be back!

Hans

Mathieu Ghekiere

09-10-2007, 02:36 AM

When I saw clips from CTL on my computer, I thought colors looked VERY video-ish, although I knew that always could be changed if you are shooting RAW.
But it was a Quicktime/PC/Gamma/Monitoring thing, because yesterday I finally saw the complete movie in 4k on the big screen and it looked very cinematic, very nice! Colours were much more vibrant.

Fergus Meiklejohn

09-10-2007, 03:00 AM

Fergus Meiklejohn

09-10-2007, 03:31 AM

A very important question, and one that is an absolutely constant source of debate.

It used to be that DPs would shoot film in a very specific way and eliminate any options in post because... well... because there wasn't any real "post" to do other than editing. Except for the crude controls of a hazeltine and various lab processes, the film looked the way it looked. O Brother Where Are Thou was the first commercially released feature to go through a "full DI" where every frame was digitally touched somehow. An awful lot of films were made before then, and lots of them looked pretty good. : )

The common wisdom now is "shoot flat," because that maximizes options in post. Well - even though I work for a company that makes a DI product - I think that thinking can really be taken to an unnatural extreme. A good DP is a good DP, and the creative partnership between the Director and DP to create the look and feel of a story I believe is frequently destroyed by the desire to "do a DI." By the time a film gets to DI, the DP is probably on the 4th or 5th job after the one in DI, and doesn't have the time to participate.

And that really is a shame. For such a long time, the role of the DP was inviolable, and that is less and less the case. I have seen so many shoots recently where the DP is little more than a technician, just called upon to make sure shots are lit as "flat" as possible. What fun is that?

Now... a lot of absolute beauty is created in a DI suite. Things that could never have happened before. O Brother Where Art Thou is a great example. That rich, textured ochre feel of most of the outdoor scenes was part of the story being told, and the atmosphere of the movie would not be the same without it.

But man... there is also so much that is just clearly a colorist gone insane. It makes me nuts sometimes. If I have to look at much more super-saturated bleach bypass hyper-color adventure hero movies, I will go insane.

Not sure what the point of this rant is other than to say that the industry is changing in huge ways right now. But new tools do not obviate old skills.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thank you Lucas, I was kind of aiming that question in your direction..
My purpose in posting my concerns about the CTL was not to slag it off, or really to re-ignite the Film vs. Digital debate (although that is clearly relevant). O Brother was a great looking movie, although watching it again recently I sometimes thought it was a little too perfect. I'm really reaching here but I wonder if the challenge might not perhaps be to our own imagination. With film, no matter how expert the technicians handling it, you have a physical object undergoing several physical processes, and so there's a lot of chance involved. Digital has been obsessed with perfection since it's inception, perfection and repeatability, like any good machine. I wonder if there is not, in a funny way, too much control in a DI suite. I wonder if the challenge for humans working in that environment is to to sow disorder in there just a little bit, to produce something unique and unrepeatable.
Of course such theories are easy to write, but how to do such a thing is a different question:)

It's clear from what you are saying Lucas, that the colourist is going to be a very important member of the team. In films where the DP is treated as a technician arguably more important than the DP..? I wonder if we'll not need a lot longer in the DI suite? Which might mean companies evolving different new business models?

Anders Holck

09-10-2007, 05:31 AM

Well, I'm sitting here at the Schipol Airport, waiting to catch a plane at 1900 hrs.

Besides the horrors of "The Hotel From Hell" (See this Thread (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4357)) it was a realy exiting exhibition.

The greatest moments were seeing the excitement from a lot of broadcast minded people when they heard the RED workflow presentation and finally got it. Not that people wasn't sceptic anymore.

I saw CTL Friday, which was a great experience.
I must admit that I was really surprised to see sensor dust on 60-80% of the footage which wasn't reported before. And the CMOS readout was really suffering from shearing because of the readout technique. Especially the "Through the snipers scope" rush pan to the tank's canon made it look like it was made of jelly. As I had already seen some footage from the production cameras I knew this was fixed, I was just surprised no one noticed at NAB. I still think RED should have explained this, because I had to "educate" a few people on the progress after the presentation.

I later spoke with Graeme (very briefly, as he was a wanted man) and he told that the dust problem was improved as the OLPF was moved further from the sensor and the Sensor readout was fixed early on, but after the Peter Jackson test.
Regarding the sensor dust problem, we do have to take a bit care of what blows into the lens port. But a clean should manage it pretty fast.

I was at the P+S technique stand and was surprised to see that the SI2k had obvious image shear on fast pans. Congrats to the RED engineering team for solving this.

Played around with the old Redcine Build in the tent. The debayer algorithm was pretty bad (The newer algorithm was in RedAlert and it looked stunning.) but the interface was really nice, especially the project stage where you could arrange your shoths, a bit like the lighttable view in Apple's aperture.

Too bad no working LCD or Viewfinders was available to us Europeans, I know a lot of people would like to see how those performs.

I liked the menusystem and the interface layout. The multicontroller on the back seems like a good solution, but of course without engraved button labels on the beta cameras for the other buttons it was a little unintuitive at first.

I spend some time at the Apple booth trying to explain a few bugs that annoyed me. Don't think they really listened anyways.

I like the way the media naming scheme on the RED.
As I understood the current scheme is like this:

Every media has a cardfolder:
Cardfolder: Cameraname_Cardnumber_YYMMDD

In that folder the media files are placed:
Clipname: Cameraname_Cardnumber_YYMMDD_Clipnumber

Cameraname can be set from the menu. Cardnumer is automatically incremented when you insert a formatted card.

Don't know why Panasonic didn't got this right from the start but having every card named uniquely with a folder including cameraname, date etc. is the only way to do it. This is very nice, and it's working. No need for RED Genie, thank god. Maybe a small app to autodetect the cards, copy with verify and format. but thats all :-)

Regarding the lenses, I was told that all lenses except the 300mm will get T stops, so both zooms and the prime set should get them.

What was obvious was that some company needs to make an angled hdmi connector though. I asked Belkin and Kramer, but they didn't seem interested.

Mathieu Ghekiere

09-10-2007, 05:43 AM

Disappointments
5) Man, did you pay €15 for one of their burgers? Over $20 for a burger!!$£%@£@
I reckon we should band together and take a class action against them in the European Court of Human Rights :)

I live in Belgium, I can guarantee you that in Europe, that WEREN'T NORMAL prices!!
I was also horrified by the prices they were asking for food or for drinks (3.5 euros for a simple little bottle of cola?).
But they are just ripping people of over there, because they know much people will be there and pay it anyway. I had my sandwiches from home with me, and my own bottle of water ;-)

Laco Zamba

09-10-2007, 05:44 AM

...angled hdmi connector... is good idea. Also I would like to have angled LCD and EVF connectors. If you look at Prague back photo, there is connector pretty long.
Thanks for your impressions Anders

Anders Holck

09-10-2007, 05:48 AM

I have seen both straight and angled LCD connectors on the Red.com store.
http://www.red.com/image/path/99/small/309004.jpg

The EVF/LCD outputs on the camera are rotated a bit so all three connectors will fit angled cables.

Laco Zamba

09-10-2007, 06:10 AM

rotated outputs - waw - great info, I didn't know - thanks

PaulClements

09-10-2007, 06:55 AM

Good post Anders. You managed to fill in many of the gaps that I'd wanted to look into but failed to because of exhaustion on the day. It was good to meet you albeit very brief... Also please apologise to your friend I was sat next too as I couldn't for the life of me stay awake during Ted's presentation (What I did see and hear was very good Ted :)). I practically fell of my chair at one point and decided to swallow half a tin of those free arri mints to keep myself awake. If anyone else had any you'd release how much pain this causes your face, they're seriously powerful mints... Trying to conceal that in a relatively quiet auditorium isn't the easiest!

Cheers

Paul

David Nardini

09-10-2007, 07:10 AM

Everyone's entitled to their opinions of the footage. Mine was a positive one, as was most of the people I discussed it with afterwards. I actually thought that the colo(u)r grade on CTL worked a lot better watching it in such a manner compared to seeing stills or low res footage. I can understand why Red didn't want to release it. There was more positives than negatives to take from the footage, considering the timescale, the use of prototype cameras and so on.

Perhaps the main point that I could see in it was that it could easily have been corrected to look like Saving Private Ryan for example or whatever you fancied, the fact was that this was the style they wanted, and for me it worked. The visible problems are defined by the limitations put on the shoot. Be it time, equipment or manpower. As well as the skills and decision making of the personnel shooting, editing and colo(u)r correcting the footage. I had no doubt that the camera was fully capable of shooting a high end motion picture having seen the short.

I concur with Paul's initial summary and his words above. I did not make NAB, so it was good to see the real thing.
It was a shame not being able to see a working LCD / EVF, BUT totally understand the conflict of meeting delivery times.

Personally, I really enjoyed meeting the RED team, and enjoyed speaking with them (rather than being spoken at !). Their collaborative approach was very evident and very refreshing ... long may it last.
My 'grey' areas got cleared up and await delivery :biggrin:

Given the circumstances and timescales for CTL, I was blown away by the 4k screening. If this is (was) the look of things at the start, I cannot wait for the next few months as things bed down and work flows start taking on best practices. RAW rules ! coming from a DSLR background, the RED workflow is a no brainer.

As for all the debates about film or video ... look & feel etc ... I'm not going to go there. It's really quite simple in my view, if you don't like it, you have the flexibility to make it so ... if you still don't like it ... stick to what you have or get one of the other digital capture units available on the market ... it's a free world ;-)

RED (+ Apple + other future partners) is a formidable package; making this level of output available to a far bigger community is just fantastic.

Congratulations to all the RED team ... spectacular achievement to date & good luck for the future.

PS : Oh BTW ... order your accessories ASAP and YES, YOU DO NEED TO PUT A 10% deposit down. This will go some way to ensure that when your RED is ready, your accessories are also ready (as checked with Kelly on Sunday at the IBC RED stand).

Anders Holck

09-10-2007, 07:50 AM

PS : Oh BTW ... order your accessories ASAP and YES, YOU DO NEED TO PUT A 10% deposit down. This will go some way to ensure that when your RED is ready, your accessories are also ready.

Hmm...Mr. Jannard isn't quite agreeing. From his post yesterday:

Wait. Things just might change again... :-)

Jim

Paul, nice meeting you. I generally didn't wear my contacts on the show floor, so I had a pretty hard time reading those badge names :-)

David Nardini

09-10-2007, 07:54 AM

Hmm...Mr. Jannard isn't quite agreeing. From his post yesterday

I asked Kelly yesterday (on Sunday at IBC) for clarification & that's what she told me :unsure:

Cheers

Anders Holck

09-10-2007, 07:56 AM

nice :-)

Roberto B

09-10-2007, 07:58 AM

how is she?..

Axel Mertes

09-10-2007, 09:05 AM

I'm very proud of the team we did send over. But I knew I was sending them into the lion's den.

Jim

To cite Ted "All the clever guys had to stay at home and build cameras!" (sorry Ted, but next time think twice talking :))

I had to say that I am ABSOLUTELY NOT DISAPPOINTED to not need to wait 2 hours to wait before entering a booth and talking to Ted.

In fact I believe the difference is mostly that the IBC has this very very big digital theater (potentially the best equipped in the world) to present this stuff. Seeing it that way must be so much better experience than in an overcrowded tent during a loud and noisy show floor. I had to say that the sound in this movie is still half of the total value, but both match at high level.

Its quite clear that that story and set were well prepared before. Even if it had been only two days of shooting, it was clearly way more time involved before and after the shoot to accomplish that result. After all, the best "story" I've ever seen for a camera test :) but honestly this is not a test, its a real production.

Typical camera tests are usually more artificial and attempt to reveal either the "pro's" or the "con's" (depending on the political standpoint of the tester) of a camera, rather than telling a story. On the bottom line we go to theater to watch stories, so you can think yourself about my favorite approach here.

I was actually disappointed about the fact the EVF wasn't being working with the camera and - more - that the back focus of "Hollywood", which I used a while to play with, was clearly way OFF. As there is no back focus adjustment, the answer was to put rings within to adjust, "like in a real film camera". Sorry guys, trying to make a digital film camera doesn't necessarily mean to must follow old bad tracks. It can be done better, there had been cameras at the show which do that better, so thats a bad point. My point with this is that when you really aim at exchanging lenses and their back focus may differ, you'll have to play with those rings, lots of notes and always the hope its right now.

Anyhow, the whole show has really rare "big news" at all, and seeing RED shipping is actually the biggest one. There is no vapor more, RED is part of the game NOW. I know that about every rental house has ordered them (mostly more than one...) and that most of these rental houses do NOT have the ARRI D20 to offer. That means something, coming from germany...

So its stands, the show floor was less interesting, the theater event every evening was worth the whole trip to the show!

I wish the whole team a good trip home, say greetings to all the other folks that hopefully assemble our camers right these moments and continue CHANGE, all the time.

Cheers,
Axel

Eirik Tyrihjel

09-10-2007, 09:31 AM

I had a great time at IBC saturday and sunday - most has been said, so I will not say everything again, but thank everyone that showed up for our REDuser meeting on saturday (22 people got the dinner) - I had a GREAT time!

I also made sure to let Ted know that METRIC markings on the lenses should be an option for the metric part of the world, he said I was the third to point it out, so hopefully it is noted by the RED team - and hopefully they will offer metric by the time I get mine ;-)

Thanks to everyone I met and partied with!

Rob Lohman

09-10-2007, 11:35 AM

Its quite clear that that story and set were well prepared before. Even if it had been only two days of shooting, it was clearly way more time involved before and after the shoot to accomplish that result. After all, the best "story" I've ever seen for a camera test :) but honestly this is not a test, its a real production.

Actually, both were done in a very short amount of time as well. Basically the time it took the team to fly from California to New Zealand, maybe a day more, but that's about it.

Peter has an incredible team of people surrounding him which allows him to move fast without probably having to say half of the things you would otherwise need to explain etc.

Regarding the file naming, it's actually: A001_C005_070910 where 'A' is the camera number, '001' is reel / roll, 'C005' is clip number (on reel / roll) and '070910' is September 10th 2007.

Rocco Schult

09-10-2007, 11:43 AM

We have a very small company...we only could send a small crew. .. . The small tent means only a few items.
Sorry if we disappointed anyone.

For me it wasn't disappointing at all. Everybody, at least here from the forum knew RED is busy building/aligning/setting up the cameras. I don't know what was expected.
I asked myself WILL THEY, EVENTUALLY...? Yes, I did. But expecting ? No.

Go on, make them ready, good decision.

It was good, seeing them in working order, with a little stuff attached (the HDMI-out is working!).

Anders Holck

09-10-2007, 12:32 PM

ok rob. Still a great scheme..

I also asked about metric markings by the way...

Rocco Schult

09-10-2007, 01:44 PM

It used to be that DPs would shoot film in a very specific way and eliminate any options in post because...
The common wisdom now is "shoot flat," because that maximizes options in post. ..I have seen so many shoots recently where the DP is little more than a technician, just called upon to make sure shots are lit as "flat" as possible. What fun is that?

Not sure what the point of this rant is other than to say that the industry is changing in huge ways right now. But new tools do not obviate old skills.

Nice post. Good to see that from a DI 'affiliated'. Thats pointing out exactly my thoughts on this. I don't necessarily go for "do what you can do in camera" (I know you aren't either Lucas), but apart from that I think "making the picture", in specific exposure, should reside there. As long as your DP is trained on what the thing is able to achieve and aware of its limits.

Tony Lorentzen

09-10-2007, 02:11 PM

Disappointments
5) Man, did you pay €15 for one of their burgers? Over $20 for a burger!!$£%@£@
I reckon we should band together and take a class action against them in the European Court of Human Rights :)

Oh yeah - eating inside the exhibition was a joke. A lame, overpriced burger without ketchup and tortilla chips instead of fries... The burger at Hard Rock Café was awesome though!

Tony Lorentzen

09-10-2007, 02:17 PM

how is she?..

Quite cute :blush:

Martin Drew

09-10-2007, 02:18 PM

I was initially a bit disappointed that the stand wasn't more sorted, but it was obvious that this was down to limited resources. It was incredibly frustrating to be able to handle a working EVF that couldn't actually be powered up because the firmware in the prototype cameras on display didn't support the production EVF. But I certainly don't hold it against Red. I got the impression that everyone was pulling out all the stops to do what they could with what was available.

I spoke to Graeme and asked him about the current status on the Magic Focus assist. He said that the coding wasn't completed yet though the software design was finalised. The Focus assist is considered a comparatively low priority compared to many of the other camera features requiring implementation, so it isn't high up on the to do list. I also asked him about when we can expect to see the on camera audio active, he reckoned about a month.

I cross examined Brian about issues with changing lens mounts. He said that if you change mounts, then when you go back to PL you will definitely have to check the flange focal distance (this can be done with a known, good lens and a chart). When pushed he accepted that if you were careful when changing mounts in a controlled environment you will probably be fine, but he was at pains to point out that this was a "non-trivial" exercise (his words). We talked for a while on this subject and I concluded that this wouldn't be something you would want to be doing on a regular basis.

I was very impressed with the quality of all the fittings, a noticeable contrast to the fittings for the SI camera, for example, which looked a bit cheap and plasticky by comparison. The Red fittings at the show were all machined (very expensive), volume production will use castings instead, but they will still be amazing VFM. I thought the rather sexy finger tightened lever bolts could have benefitted from having slightly radiused edges, it would have made them easier on the fingers. This was especially true of the bolts which tightened the handles in position on the rods, you needed to apply quite a bit of torque to stop the handles from twisting on the rods. In an ideal world it would be great if those particular bolts had longer levers.

The images from the cameras were being displayed on some LG computer monitors acquired locally. The cameras were outputting 24fps and the monitors showed nasty stuttering on motion, most likely due to some incompatibility between the frame rate and some aspect of the screen refresh timing of the monitors (or possibly some monitor processing artifact). I would imagine that some people are planning on using cheap computer monitors for monitoring the HDMI output during shooting. I wouldn't assume that all monitors are equal in this role. Graeme seemed to reckon that Dell monitors they have been using at Red seemed better in this regard but it will probably require some experimentation to determine the best options.

WOW! "Crossing The Line" in the Big Theatre at IBC was really something else. I didn't go to NAB, but I spoke to a few people who had after the show and they said it was even better than they remembered it. Probably down to the quality of the Screen at IBC especially with the new Sony 4K projector they were using, that theatre is really quite stunning.

Big thanks to Eirik for organising the Saturday meet, I had a great time.

Cheers

M

Tony Lorentzen

09-10-2007, 02:20 PM

What was obvious was that some company needs to make an angled hdmi connector though. I asked Belkin and Kramer, but they didn't seem interested.

Maybe something like this:

http://www.the-hdb-store.com/servlet/the-284/35-dsh-718-dsh-A--HDMI-RIGHT/Detail

Or something like this:

http://www.cableclub.com/angled-hdmi-audio-video-xbox-game-cable-p-1933.html?language=ch

Or:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Right-Angled-HDMI-Adapter-Gold-Plated_W0QQitemZ190147307061QQihZ009QQcategoryZ150 55QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

jbeale

09-10-2007, 02:21 PM

the back focus of "Hollywood", which I used a while to play with, was clearly way OFF. As there is no back focus adjustment, the answer was to put rings within to adjust, "like in a real film camera". Sorry guys, trying to make a digital film camera doesn't necessarily mean to must follow old bad tracks. It can be done better, there had been cameras at the show which do that better, so thats a bad point. My point with this is that when you really aim at exchanging lenses and their back focus may differ, you'll have to play with those rings, lots of notes and always the hope its right now.

I am not really qualified to comment, but I will anyway :-). If you have to handle, transport and store shims separately from lenses, this sounds awkward. I thought the shim would somehow be stuck in or on the lens mount so it didn't have to be handled as a separate piece during normal work.

Is it true that designs with continuously adjustable backfocus are better in all cases? What is your experience with adjustable backfocus cameras (esp. with S35 frame sizes?) Does back focus sometimes get accidentally mis-set during use? Do small bumps and vibration have any effect? Does temperature change affect the adjustment?

It's my understanding that the mount is one of the "modular" parts. If so, I could imagine Red or someone else making a new mount you could swap in, with different backfocus arrangements, if there was demand for it.

chuck colburn

09-10-2007, 02:31 PM

I am not really qualified to comment, but I will anyway :-). If you have to handle, transport and store shims separately from lenses, this sounds awkward. I thought the shim would somehow be stuck in or on the lens mount so it didn't have to be handled as a separate piece during normal work.

Is it true that designs with continuously adjustable backfocus are better in all cases? What is your experience with adjustable backfocus cameras (esp. with S35 frame sizes?) Does back focus sometimes get accidentally mis-set during use? Do small bumps and vibration have any effect? Does temperature change affect the adjustment?

So far as I know, (I've been out of the loop for a while) there are no motion picture cameras with field adjustable flange focale depth.