Newbie Questions About Nikon and Red

[Seung Han]

I just wanted to say that as a writer/director with little knowledge of lenses I have been learning a lot in this forum. Thanks to everybody for sharing their wealth of knowledge, especially Evin.

I have some questions that may seem elementary, but I want to make sure I am understanding correctly before I start spending bad money on incompatible lenses, so please be patient.

1) I ordered one Red with a Nikon adaptor and a second Red which I have not yet decided on. Am I correct in thinking this: Red Body + Nikkor Adaptor + Nikkor lens = Image. So I only need the $500 Nikkor Adaptor to connect Nikkor lenses on it? Do I need anything else?

2) What type of Nikon lenses work with the Red? Do any Nikon lenses work or are there ones that work better? Electric, manual, prime, zoom? Or do they all work? There are so many lenses on this board I am a little confused. Like I read that zoom lenses with elements moving only inside the body is better for focus in productions? Why are some lenses better besides having better optics, I mean in terms of its body or the way they move?

3) If I get the Birger Adaptor then I do not need the Red's Nikkor adaptor? Or do I still need both? If only the Birger Adaptor then I should consider different lenses?

I hope this isn't embarrassing to read. I feel like I am understanding very specific things in the posts in here, but I am having a little difficulty in tying everything up in a general way.

If you can answer one or two questions I really appreciate it! Thanks.

[PaulClements]

1) if you are using manual nikon lenses this setup is fine, but you will want a follow focus that can be reversed and have gearing so that you can alter the sensitivity because the focus throw on the lenses are shorter than cine lenses. The older AI lenses have longer focus throw (I.E. the focus barrel spins further giving greater accuracy on focus).

2) All Nikon lenses since around the 60's are F-Mount so they should all pretty much work fine. Some zoom lenses will extend physically when zoomed out. This isn't a problem if it's fairly small since you can compensate for it but otherwise might cause problems with matteboxes or close objects. Other zoom lenses such as the Canon 16-35mm do it but zoom inside, the same as the Red 18-50mm (See rollover image halfway down this page: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-16-35mm-f-2.8-L-II-USM-Lens-Review.aspx). Also try to avoid zooms that have different apertures at different stages of zoms. Is simpler to light for lenses that have the same Fstop all the way through.

3) No you don't need the red Nikkor adaptor. If you get the birger mount you might as well get AFS lenses since you can control them via a motor rather than having to physically attach a follow focus. You can still attach manual lenses and use a follow focus on them too.

Cheers

Paul

[Jaime Vallés]

If you get RED's Nikon mount, you can't use Nikon lenses with a "G" designation, because they don't have an aperture ring. The aperture is controlled electronically, and the RED Nikon mount doesn't do that.

The Birger mount will be able to use "G" Nikon lenses, though.

[Finner]

Hi Seung

Your post is similiar in ways to many posts I see and I just have to point out something that seems a little problematic to me. There are a bunch of people that are writers or directors or film hopefuls with little to no camera experience buying one or more cameras. It just does not make a lot of sense. There are also DP's buying cameras that actually know how to use the gear (I am a director/DP with a few years experience). It just seems absolutely crazy to me that a bunch of people that barely know the basics of a camera think it is a good idea to own one. I know it the camera is a good price in comparison to other cameras but if you really do not know how to use it is it still a good deal?

Take this for example lets say a new semi-truck building company comes out with a great new semi truck for one third the price of its lowest compeditor. Sure the truck would be a great price but if you don't actually have a license to drive it and have no contacts or experience as a trucker will it still be a good deal?

DP's that have gone out and bought cameras are going to want people to rent theirs. So we are very well headed towards a glut of cameras. How much is a red one going to be worth and rent for when you go on set and the DP has a red the 1st AC has a red the 2nd AC has a red the director has a red the sound guy has a red and most of the SPFX dept and PA's have reds?

Doesn't anyone else see how crazy it is for a bunch of non camera people to be buying cameras? If it is not your plan to actually learn the craft of the camera dept and do the job don't buy a red camera. Right now you never see a writer or director with next to no camera experience that owns a viper or film camera. If all these people with no camera experience buy reds the camera will be de-valued like crazy and people are going to find themselves owning a camera they do not have the knowledge to properly use that will sit and collect dust and rent for $200 a day because everyone around has the camera. Then in time the rentals will all end up going to rental houses with reds or DP's with cameras.

[Seung Han]

Thanks Paul, that was really helpful. I think your post just pushed the collimator out of my head! :clown2:


1) if you are using manual nikon lenses this setup is fine, but you will want a follow focus that can be reversed and have gearing so that you can alter the sensitivity because the focus throw on the lenses are shorter than cine lenses. The older AI lenses have longer focus throw (I.E. the focus barrel spins further giving greater accuracy on focus).

2) All Nikon lenses since around the 60's are F-Mount so they should all pretty much work fine. Some zoom lenses will extend physically when zoomed out. This isn't a problem if it's fairly small since you can compensate for it but otherwise might cause problems with matteboxes or close objects. Other zoom lenses such as the Canon 16-35mm do it but zoom inside, the same as the Red 18-50mm (See rollover image halfway down this page: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-16-35mm-f-2.8-L-II-USM-Lens-Review.aspx). Also try to avoid zooms that have different apertures at different stages of zoms. Is simpler to light for lenses that have the same Fstop all the way through.

3) No you don't need the red Nikkor adaptor. If you get the birger mount you might as well get AFS lenses since you can control them via a motor rather than having to physically attach a follow focus. You can still attach manual lenses and use a follow focus on them too.

Cheers

Paul

[Kevin Halverson]

Your post is similiar in ways to many posts I see and I just have to point out something that seems a little problematic to me. There are a bunch of people that are writers or directors or film hopefuls with little to no camera experience buying one or more cameras. It just does not make a lot of sense. There are also DP's buying cameras that actually know how to use the gear (I am a director/DP with a few years experience). It just seems absolutely crazy to me that a bunch of people that barely know the basics of a camera think it is a good idea to own one. I know it the camera is a good price in comparison to other cameras but if you really do not know how to use it is it still a good deal? ...

I understand your concern, but how is this any different than someone with considerable fiscal resources going out and buying a super exotic sports car like an S7, Ford GT, F430 or similar? I would dare to say that most of the people who can afford these types of cars don't really have any ability to drive them (like they can be driven). Despite this, you don't see these same people offering their cars for rental at rates that match a Chevy Malibu just to pick up a few extra bucks.

While it is true that a great number of camera's may be under and or mis-utilized, I don't see their numbers hurting anything in the long run. If the bulk of owners help finance the development of the camera, those of us who do have real use for them should be happy that they have helped to reduce the costs of the camera's that we get to use.

Time will tell, but I am really not concerned at all.

[Seung Han]

If it is not your plan to actually learn the craft of the camera dept and do the job don't buy a red camera.

Hey Finner,

I want to learn! It is the reason I made this thread.

Sharing knowledge is a virtue...


If all these people with no camera experience buy reds the camera will be de-valued like crazy and people are going to find themselves owning a camera they do not have the knowledge to properly use that will sit and collect dust and rent for $200 a day because everyone around has the camera. Then in time the rentals will all end up going to rental houses with reds or DP's with cameras.

To me the value in the Red is not monetary. It is a new link in the process of expressing myself.

And please refer to Regista's post to understand why this process is so important to a filmmaker...

[PaulClements]

I disagree Finner. The RedOne camera is the ideal candidate for anyone wanting to learn and ply their trade. You can't learn to shoot with a HVX and 32mm adapter - Anything taken from it is mainly of artistic value. You can't learn from 35mm film cameras because you can't go out and reel off a days worth of film shooting non descript items for the sake of understanding your lenses and light - it would cost more than the RedOne. You can't learn from a Genesis or D20 or Dalsa because you'll be paying more to use it for a couple of weeks. You can't learn from renting a RedOne as is qualified by the rental prices people anticipate getting from their cameras as again it's not financially viable.

You can learn by going to film school and paying a similar amount to what you would for the camera, if not more. Everyone has their starting place when learning about equipment and for the first time the RedOne is a professional and affordable solution. As long as they are financially capable of paying for the camera I can think of no camera better to purchase than this one for a beginner.

After a year of learning you could even sell your equipment for a favourable price, meaning a years worth of shooting and first hand experience might only cost you a few thousand dollars, significantly cheaper than any other form of learning currently available.

[Seung Han]

Hmmm... I see he took this to the frontlines :pinch:

[number6]

Hey Finner,

I want to learn! It is the reason I made this thread.

Sharing knowledge is a virtue...



Seung... No need to defend yourself to Finner. He tries to undermine because he fears for his (soon-to-be) antiquated way of earning money. He fears you.

[Seung Han]

Seung... No need to defend yourself to Finner. He tries to undermine because he fears for his (soon-to-be) antiquated way of earning money. He fears you.

Thanks Number6.

I'm a little paranoid now that people on this board will refer to this thread and see me as the idiot who bought two reds but doesn't know what a collimator is...:glare:

I am just grateful Jim and his Red Team were passionate enough to build this camera. They seem like good people who put a lot of work and energy into this endeavor. I just made this thread, so I can utilize their camera to the best of my potential abilities when I get it in my hands.

And, again, thanks Paul for answering my questions. And what you wrote is absolutely right. This camera is really motivating me to understand cinematography better. And yes Finner, I will hire a DP, maybe we will even get a chance to work together in the near future (3 Reds!!!), but I think I hope our conversations will be much more specific about getting the best images possible because of what I have learned from this community.

Again, I apologize if this thread was embarrassing. I really hope Finner makes good money with his Red, just as I hope my Reds will make my film better. I personally don't see a conflict of interests...

[number6]

bought two reds but doesn't know what a collimator is...



collimator? THERE IS A COLLIMATOR!!!???

[Seung Han]

collimator? THERE IS A COLLIMATOR!!!???

I was actually scared the first time I read about that...:)

[John Wee]

Finner is just worried he cant get $$$$$$$$ for his rental. LOL

Everyone has to start somewhere, be it with the hv10, dvx100b ...etc. But if Seung has the money to start with TWO Red, more power to him.

[Evin Grant]

We all knew eventually a camera would come out that would redefine the economies of the film industry. If Red hadn't done it SI would of or some other industrious company, all you needed to do was look at the pace of computer tech and it was obvious. The trick is to be smart, reliable and creative and you will not have a problem making a living and renting your Red. For those that depend on a captured market, your days are numbered, becasue indeed almost everyone on set is going to have a camera, but if you are the person that people believe is best suited to operate/light/DIT for that camera then you are alwasy going to get a good rate and a fair rental price.

[Mike Prevette]

You people are crazier than a football bat. 90% of the people on this board I wouldn't hire as a PA much less a 2nd AC or loader. It astounds me how little some of the early reservation holders know about the Cine world and the camera systems inside it.

It scares me shitless that some pa/writer/director/waiter buys one of these Reds and goes wandring around town getting work for it and fuckin up. Producers will talk and the RED will come up, and once one of them gets burned it will be WAY harder getting them to use it again. Therefore giving us all a bad name, and making it harder for ALL OF US to feed our families. Of course there is no License to use camera (unless you count local600) but please be careful out there and don't fuck it up for all of us. spend some time in a rental house, or camera pa'ing on a job. Get some knowledge.

p.s. Seung this is in no way aimed at you. You seem very honest, and interested in learning. This is a vent at some other people.

_mike

[number6]

It scares me shitless that some pa/writer/director/waiter buys one of these Reds and goes wandring around town getting work for it

_mike

Mike, it is good that you are scared. At least you recognize how precarious your current status is.

[Joel Kaye]

Mike, it is good that you are scared. At least you recognize how precarious your current status is.

The scary thing about a waiter with a RED is they can use their restaurant connections to offer cheap craft services too. Food for thought.

[Mike Prevette]

Number6 With all due respect you took my quote out of context. I'm in no way fearful that my skill and talents will land me work for the rest of my career. My original comment was with regard to how easy it will be for the inexperienced people to tarnish reds name. It happened 5 years ago with FCP and the editing industry has only now started to convince producers it's a viable option.

_mike

[Charles Adams]

This concern that people with access to this new film technology will somehow taint the industry is absolutely ridiculous. Put another way, we could be talking about computers here, the printing press, or a paintbrush. These are just tools afterall - if you can afford the price, do what you will with them. Afterall, I thought it had to do with content anyway? Why worry that such a tool is in the hands of someone trying to learn?

Anyway, this concern over how people spend their money is silly. Shall we worry about what they are having for breakfast too? Should we find out how Seung sleeps at night?

Seung, do what you want with your money and do not feel embarrased. You are completely entitled to try. Many people do not know how to run a business yet they invest their life savings or borrow and beg to try. Many businesses fail. Yet many succeed as well. Buying a Red should not be any different.

[Joel Kaye]

Many people do not know how to run a business yet they invest their life savings or borrow and beg to try. Many businesses fail. Yet many succeed as well. Buying a Red should not be any different.

That's it in a nutshell.

I really think the big opportunity is for high level creative people who want to do their own independent pet projects on a shoestring. They ARE the industry. The only thing that keeps them shackled is cost of production. And distribution.

Morgan Freeman tried it... not sure how it's really flying yet. But that's the idea.

[number6]

Number6 With all due respect you took my quote out of context. I'm in no way fearful that my skill and talents will land me work for the rest of my career. My original comment was with regard to how easy it will be for the inexperienced people to tarnish reds name. It happened 5 years ago with FCP and the editing industry has only now started to convince producers it's a viable option.

_mike

See your point, but I think the camera will stand on its oun. A good measuring stick is the old Canon Series of XL cameras. People put out good and bad product from that camera, but those who mattered could distinguish between the camera and the user. I think RED will be more user friendly in many respects (not from the automatic shooter's perspective, but from the new-to-the-profession professionals) that will make it harder to exhibit bad footage from the camera than it was from the XL cameras. That is, the Redccode RAW means the user has to at least have some post-type connections or experience, or the footage will never see the light of day. I think the pricepoint, as well as the moderate complexity will be just enough to insure that only the better captures will be seen and rein in the release of embarrassingly bad visuals.

[Mike Prevette]

You guys are correct theoretically, but this industry is run by producers. Producers are essentially insurance to a production, they make sure qualified people are in every position, and the right tools for the job have been gathered up. unfortunately they are also in the position to save money. These are two opposing ideals. So they rarely take chances, and need a LOT of hand holding to embrace new technologies. So is some newbie right out of the gate the right person to do that? Will the temptation of their low price overwhelm a usually conservative producer? We shall see this is all theoretical now.

What I do know, is that when a producer gets burned by a person place or thing they tell other producers about it. What you don't get many of in this business is a second chance! So don't ruin your name, or Red's name by going out there and promising the world without being able to back it up.

_mike

[number6]

You guys are correct theoretically, but this industry is run by producers. Producers are essentially insurance to a production, they make sure qualified people are in every position, and the right tools for the job have been gathered up. unfortunately they are also in the position to save money. These are two opposing ideals. So they rarely take chances, and need a LOT of hand holding to embrace new technologies. So is some newbie right out of the gate the right person to do that? Will the temptation of their low price overwhelm a usually conservative producer? We shall see this is all theoretical now.

What I do know, is that when a producer gets burned by a person place or thing they tell other producers about it. What you don't get many of in this business is a second chance! So don't ruin your name, or Red's name by going out there and promising the world without being able to back it up.

_mike

We are actually talking apples and oranges here since I am thinking along "self-contained" operations lines, and not the pre-RED model of movie making. Thus, I will bow out of this discussion since I, like Michael Vick, have no dog in this fight.

edit: besides, it is about time for NASCAR racing on abc.

[Mike Prevette]

See your point, but I think the camera will stand on its oun. A good measuring stick is the old Canon Series of XL cameras. People put out good and bad product from that camera, but those who mattered could distinguish between the camera and the user. I think RED will be more user friendly in many respects (not from the automatic shooter's perspective, but from the new-to-the-profession professionals) that will make it harder to exhibit bad footage from the camera than it was from the XL cameras. That is, the Redccode RAW means the user has to at least have some post-type connections or experience, or the footage will never see the light of day. I think the pricepoint, as well as the moderate complexity will be just enough to insure that only the better captures will be seen and rein in the release of embarrassingly bad visuals.


Thats true, however not many producers 'click' with the ideas behind a RAW based workflow. Many times in the US after a shoot, a DP never sees the footage again. So now having the producer have to pay the DP to oversee the coloring/transfer. Then you have the producers from the video side that don't even think footage should go through a colorist! Those folks are in for a nasty supprise.

[Joel Kaye]

So now having the producer have to pay the DP to oversee the coloring/transfer. Then you have the producers from the video side that don't even think footage should go through a colorist! Those folks are in for a nasty supprise.

For the film guys it's the same as ever. They don't have to pay the DP to be a colorist. Grab the raw footage and give it to The Orphanage.

For video guys - pick a LUT in advance or on the set and OneLight it through RedCine.

Yeah - REDusers are going to have to be well versed pros just like always and find out what the producer wants delivered and give it to them. But right now that's not going really well for a lot of people. Look at Mike Curtis' blog and he outlines how bad post has been going for a lot of people.

I just don't think your "waiter with a red" would ever get the job in the first place... so he's not a threat.

[Mark Thorpe]

An integral part of any process to get a crew together lies in the countless number of interviews etc held to establish the fundamental base core of people on any given production. For someone to be offered an interview based solely on the fact that they have a RED One is potentially a hazard that may occur as inexperienced reservation holders take charge of their units. Surely they will get 'rumbled' as being complete dreamers during the whole interview process? No show-reel in large formats, unfamiliarity with the equipment, techniques, work flow, chain of command etc. If they don't get caught out though whose fault is that?

I make no bones about the fact that I have very little knowledge of the required skills as a camera operator at the level required to tame RED. You won't see me touting my availability, services etc with the camera until I feel I can stand my own professionally and deliver the goods. That time taken to master this puppy will allow me to learn what is required of me. I am also looking to specialize in one main area of filming (underwater macro and 'super macro') so my understanding and knowledge will be far removed from that required by others with dreams of producing full blown blockbusters.

Each to their own. However I do find it a tad unsavory though that there should exist any feelings of resentment aimed at those with a desire to learn. Many may fail but some will prevail. Surely that in itself is cause for a toast, with RED wine of course.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Finner]

Seung... No need to defend yourself to Finner. He tries to undermine because he fears for his (soon-to-be) antiquated way of earning money. He fears you.

Oh yes I have such a big fear of your award winning cinematography and directing skills #6. You are comming hard and fast so look out Speilberg!

It is a shame so few have seen your true genius #6. So please everyone treat yourself to a cine experience that is unrivalled world wide and view some of #6's finest work like the renound fan favorite "Raegan's Naughty Goat" or the current Oscar front runner "No Place Like Betty Lou's dance". All work that anyone with experience should fear because in just a few months he will be taking your job from you. Seung Han you really need to see these beauties because I am sure after viewing them you will be rushing to team up with #6 on your next project. Really who needs experience or cinematography knowledge when you have the raw skill and talent #6 always talks about and truely comes through and displays with the clips below. So everyone please enjoy and try and learn a few things from the genius.

Below are a few links to #6's work that will put us all out of bussiness or just go view his website at the bottom.

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

[Andrew Benz]

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/hoff-18187.jpg

[Finner]

Nice pic Andrew

By the way you did not give your review on #6's fine work and how it will de-throne DP's and directors accross America. Please share your thoughts.

Please others also join in and give your 5-stars or thumbs up or ripe tomatoes or which ever scale you can come up with to review #6's masterpieces. I will give you all the links again below.


http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

[Lauri Kettunen]

Tend to share same kind of thoughts as Paul and Number6. Film industry is one of the last fields which has not yet been completely changed by modern technology, and thanks to RED, this wave has now started.

In early 80's computers had to be maintained by operators. When a disk was broken, a rep of the manufacturer put a new one in his briefcase and reserved a seat to the first flight and took off to the customer to change the HDD. Nice service, but a rather expensive system. When PC's became popular the argumentation of the professional operators was pretty much the same as what we read now on these pages.

We've all seen this same phenomenon in different contexts. Once text editing systems came in, a huge number of people learned to type quickly with ten fingers. Ordinary people are nowadays able to maintain their computers. Large masses of peoples are able to use digital cameras, and the profession of running a small photostore is more or less gone.

So, my guess is that in couple years operating a digital film camera is not found to be a big deal at all. We will find huge numbers of people taking decent shots with tools like RED. After all, from the technical point of view, operating a camera like RED is not that difficult, especially as there are (will be) the histograms, focus assistants etc. which will help beginners to get started. And when people own the camera themselves, they will have a proper chance to learn with time.

In the end of the day, still, some people will take better shots than others. The wonderful thing is that RED will imply the technical quality is no longer a blocking factor for most people. Instead, what will matter is the eye of taking good shots and the talent to tell a story by pictures.

RED has already started the revolution, and there is no way to go backwards or to build a shelter not giving the latest technology to everybody who wants to buy it. I'm pretty sure the big factories are also already preparing their answers to the challenge set by RED. Of course, they are fat organizations compared to RED, but eventually the price of tools will go down. Thanks to Jim, technology is no longer overpriced!

[Jason Francois]

Wow, what a thread. I've seen this type of "don't buy it if you're not brilliant" thread a lot lately and I honestly think it's ridiculous and is also giving way too much credit to RED.

RED is amazing in my opinion and revolutionary, but I've also been around long enough to know that there have been many revolutions in the film and video industry over the decades. While looking back and comparing them to RED today may make them seem evolutionary.... at the time they were revolutionary and the same types of things happened. People bought into it when others thought they shouldn't and you know what happend? Sometimes those that jumped in and learned and embraced became visionaries and even moreover the industry didn't collapse, it became stronger.

People like me, writer/producer/wanna-be-shooters will buy cameras and play and people that think they are great will buy and play and some that are truly great will join the fray as well. All in all it wont matter for much when the next revolution comes and we are long forgotten.

Don't get me wrong. I think that RED is something like we haven't seen in a LONG time or maybe even at the top of the list of great things that we've seen in the industry throughout film history, but it's still just another vehicle and still available to public.

I don't know much about the technical side of being a DP, but I would love to learn... and if I can turn my finances around and make #366 reality, I won't make any apologies and nor should anybody else. And if I can get it and don't have time to use it I will set it up on a very firmly built shelf and walk by and touch it everyday and I still wont apologize. Same for the Ferrari that I can't drive parked in my garage. :)

Furthermore, this argument about tainting the rental pool, etc. seems to come from the same person that sits at the blackjack table in Vegas and gets mad because you hit on an 18 and took their KING. It was my fucking KING. It would have been your KING if I hadn't taken it, so get over it.

J.

[Chris Parker]

So, my guess is that in couple years operating a digital film camera is not found to be a big deal at all. We will find huge numbers of people taking decent shots with tools like RED. After all, from the technical point of view, operating a camera like RED is not that difficult, especially as there are (will be) the histograms, focus assistants etc. which will help beginners to get started. And when people own the camera themselves, they will have a proper chance to learn with time.


That is ridiculous. Who the hell actually thinks that the only thing to shooting great images is having a histogram and damn focus assist to look at?!?

Lighting is an art form. It's about shaping light. Matching light angles from one shot to the next. Good commercial DOPs don't make $4K/day (in my market anyways) for nothing.

Sure, there will be some new guys come up after playing with their REDs for a few years. The ones with real talent. They would have risen to the top anyways. Well, maybe having a RED to experiment with WILL actually help a few people make it as a DOP.

But Finner is bang on that buying a RED won't make you better at lighting. Now, his attitude is a little strange. I don't quite understand why he cares about this so much. If some schlep wants to drop $30K on a camera and call himself a DOP, why should he care? This guy poses no (I mean...zero) threat to any established DOP out there, so why would he sweat it even for a second. I guess he would say that he is just trying to be nice by giving advice to these newbies in the film biz. But his harshness tells me that is really not the case.

Don't get me wrong Finner, I have liked your posts since way back in the old video assist on set with the RED thread that I started about 6 months ago. In there, I quickly realized that you were one of few people on this forum at that time that have actually spent time on bigger budget film sets, and you know how it works.

That's why you don't have a thing to worry about. You think a producer is going to rent the craft guy's RED? Ha! He'll take yours, or the rental houses. That's right. It's the rental houses that you have to worry more about than the 'dime-a-dozen' REDs that producers won't give the time of day to.

Look at the HVX200. There must be tens of thousands of those in the market, but whenever one gets used on a commercial set, do they get it from joe blow? Or from a rental house at full price? Same will be the case with the RED, even moreso.

[Seung Han]

You guys all seemed more experienced and informed than me on cinematography so is there anything else you can add to Paul's answers on demystifying the options for mounts, adaptors and lenses for the Red.

And also, I hereby solemnly swear to hire a great DP for my films as well as rent out my Reds on downtimes at a fair market value in Seoul, Korea minus me as the DP...:wink:

[number6]

Oh yes I have such a big fear of your award winning cinematography and directing skills #6. You are comming hard and fast so look out Speilberg!

It is a shame so few have seen your true genius #6. So please everyone treat yourself to a cine experience that is unrivalled world wide and view some of #6's finest work like the renound fan favorite "Raegan's Naughty Goat" or the current Oscar front runner "No Place Like Betty Lou's dance". All work that anyone with experience should fear because in just a few months he will be taking your job from you. Seung Han you really need to see these beauties because I am sure after viewing them you will be rushing to team up with #6 on your next project. Really who needs experience or cinematography knowledge when you have the raw skill and talent #6 always talks about and truely comes through and displays with the clips below. So everyone please enjoy and try and learn a few things from the genius.

Below are a few links to #6's work that will put us all out of bussiness or just go view his website at the bottom.

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

Finner, I gather by your post that you are giving my videos 2 (middle) fingers up? Is that a positive "Nuts" or a negative "Nuts", general? But let's just say the review is accurate, which of course proves my point. These videos were not shot on a RED! End of discussion. Game, set, match to Number 6!

[Seung Han]

Also, to give this debate a little perspective on why a filmmaker would want to buy this camera...

Here's my perspective on tools for creating art, I am only interested in the technology in so far as it can be used in the process to realize my inspiration. When I worked professionaly in post about a decade ago, I never really got that familiar with the software or hardware I was using, and I went through a lot of different things. The companies that hired me as an editor/compositor hired me for my creative sensibilities. If they had a new software or hardware, they got someone to train me for a week and then let me loose. I went through PSD, Illustrator, AFX, Avid, FCP, Media Composer, the Sphere, Avid Illusion, Director... The clients which included Proctor & Gamble, Swatch, MSN, IFM, PBS, Tiger Toys, etc...always seemed happy and paid me good money (actually I don't know how the market is today in post but back then it was pretty ridiculous), enough for me to start my own businesses.

On the film side, I've made two shorts on 16mm and three on mini-DV. They've done fairly well, festivals and awards leading to some grants and interest in my feature scripts. I own two DV cameras, DVX2000 and PD150. I am prepping to shoot a feature script this winter and started doing research since I haven't really looked at the tech advances in the last 3-4 years busy writing. So, when I decided to shoot on HD, I looked at rental prices. $17,000 for F 23 for 31 Days. Then I discovered the Red about a month ago, and I thought it was fantastic. It seemed to unify a lot of my background except 35mm photography, thus the reason for posting this thread. So I decided to buy two which will probably be too late for this winter production, but it was perfect to shoot another script next summer which I have already started raising money for. I will just rent the camera out to my production company...

On the downtime, I intend to help out other Indie filmmakers out here in Seoul who have great scripts but have a hard time raising funds. I figure I can do a co-production with them with my equipment and services...

I don't think this sounds like such a bad idea does it? I mean I can afford the two cameras and already I have raised half the budget for my next shoot which should pay for one of the cameras. Wouldn't you buy them?

[Lauri Kettunen]

Lighting is an art form. It's about shaping light.

Fully agree with you, that's precisely what it is to tell a story with pictures. To get to that point one needs first to learn to operate technically with the camera and in the end of the day that is not such a big deal. If one has the passion, one will definitely learn. This is why I quite don't get Finner's concern. Perhaps should add, telling the story -or a good story- is a completely different issue and would not like to claim being there.

[Evan Owen]

Fully agree with you, that's precisely what it is to tell a story with pictures. To get to that point one needs first to learn to operate technically with the camera and in the end of the day that is not such a big deal.
...

Except that what he's referring to has little to do with the camera one uses. DPing encompasses much, much more than simply knowing how to operate something technically. It's something that can really only be learned from experience–alot of it.

Having a RED will not improve anything you shoot, if you can't light or frame properly in the first place. If anything, it'll just make your lighting and composition errors more obvious. Not to mention choice of subject matter... sorry #6.

[Finner]

I don't quite understand why he cares about this so much. If some schlep wants to drop $30K on a camera and call himself a DOP, why should he care? This guy poses no (I mean...zero) threat to any established DOP out there, so why would he sweat it even for a second. I guess he would say that he is just trying to be nice by giving advice to these newbies in the film biz. But his harshness tells me that is really not the case.


Honestly I did not mean to be that harsh or mean at first. I was only trying to let people see that the camera will not make that big a difference if the other skills are not their to go with it. You are correct in saying that I am only trying to give advice. But HOLY SHIT people are actually planning to take big loans because they feel simply owning a red will make a bussiness for them. Now regista and some others I am not trying to crush peoples dreams and I am not trying to hold others back all I am saying is it takes more then a good idea and a good camera to create something good. I can understand how people get these ideas though because inexperienced people in any work field or sport often do not know how little they know until they get a little experience. I know everyday I realize how much more I need to learn. Also if you are planning not to be a DOP hire one with a red rather then buying one. DOP's with cameras will bring them in tow for very cheap and the directors or producers can spend all the extra cash they are shelling out on the actual project. Seriously on a lower budget independant I would be suprised if the DP would charge from free to $5,000 max for rental for the whole film with a full camera system worth over $50,000. DOP's make their money off mainstream work and commercials not independents. So if you are a talented producer or director with a fantastic idea and script and have some raw talent finding a fairly skilled DOP with a camera will be one of your easiest tasks in the process of creating your film. I have shot shorts and even 1 indie feature for craft service and a weekly gas fill up and know of 2 mentors of mine that DP huge 50-150million feature block busters that do at least 1 short and one indie feature for free every year. They both have taught me that you have to give back to the community and by doing free projects you get to try and do things that your hands are tied down on when doing full pay gig's. With that knowledge what kind of sense does it make for a producer or director that does not plan to be a DOP to buy a camera?

Now as far as being harsh or mean I just get a little upset when people state that experienced people are living in fear of inexperienced people that have nothing under their belt but will be getting a red soon. A lot of members on here can answer a lot of questions someone would have about filmaking or tech info and openly give it and do what they can to help but I do not think some members realize what an insult it is to state that they are all fearful of a rookie with a red one.

[Seung Han]

Fully agree with you, that's precisely what it is to tell a story with pictures. To get to that point one needs first to learn to operate technically with the camera and in the end of the day that is not such a big deal. If one has the passion, one will definitely learn. This is why I quite don't get Finner's concern. Perhaps should add, telling the story -or a good story- is a completely different issue and would not like to claim being there.

In the end, I think that is what most of us are saying, some are just being more pessimistic about this learning curve.

I have worked with people at all levels and sometimes somebody who doesn't even know the nomenclature of a specific field will surprise me bacuse they will have innate talent or sensitivity towards a certain area of perception.

When I was head of a graphics deptartment I had very little tech knowledge but the company was confident in putting me in that position. Once in a while I had to hire new staff and initially I sought out people with software background and I was never happy with their work. Then I started taking risks and went with people who had different art backgrounds and a natural instinct in general composition, lighting and colors. Those hires worked out great. They would sit down with photoshop and AFX and just understood naturally about tweaking color balance, tonal mapping, contrast, hues, saturation, etc... Because they instinctively had a great eye for those things. And, trust me, you learn the software fairly quick in a fast professional environment. Why? Because in the end it is just a tool. Again this was when Post was moving away from tapes to digital so there weren't that many young artists with software background. I'm sure it is very different now.

I think many people who are entrenched in old modes are going to have to continue adapting to new models of produciton and distribution. Change is not a bad thing, unless you are lazy and untalented. If that is the case, you will always resent change and those who have talent because in revolutions the strong will survive...

[Finner]

Finner, I gather by your post that you are giving my videos 2 (middle) fingers up? Is that a positive "Nuts" or a negative "Nuts", general? But let's just say the review is accurate, which of course proves my point. These videos were not shot on a RED! End of discussion. Game, set, match to Number 6!

Yes it is too bad because if your video's below had been shot with a red your point would be proved as a red would have made all the difference. I am sure your video's would have been oscar winning shorts had they been shot with a red.

Below are a few links to #6's work that will put us all out of bussiness or just go view his website at the bottom.

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

[Matt Uhry]

The kernel of truth in Finners initial post is that if you are not making money making films, renting cameras or working in the camera dept, the arrival of your Red is probably going to change that significantly. So if you are not rich, please use a little bit of financial sense. The camera is just an element of your "Business Plan", some of the posts on this board seem to be unaware of that.

For Indies:

I don't want to stop anybody from making anything in 4k, lets see what you've got! If you can convince a film distributor that people will give you 2 hours and 9 bucks to share your brilliance in 4k...

For DP's

Everybody competes for DP's for jobs, it's about the reel and who you know and have worked with. The way I got started was buying a camera and shooting lots of stuff for cheap and free. ( Oh yeah, and learning EVERYTHIING technical and creative about cinematography that I could. ) The Red could be part of that plan, just be real about the finances.

Can we get back to lenses now ?

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[number6]

Yes it is too bad because if your video's below had been shot with a red your point would be proved as a red would have made all the difference. I am sure your video's would have been oscar winning shorts had they been shot with a red.

Below are a few links to #6's work that will put us all out of bussiness or just go view his website at the bottom.

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_1.html

http://www.mallowmedia.com/Video_3.html

www.mallowmedia.com

O.K.... TECHNICALLY speaking... they aren't that great. But c'mon Finner! A fharting goat? THAT'S content! n'ces pas?

[Chris Parker]

A lot of members on here can answer a lot of questions someone would have about filmaking or tech info and openly give it and do what they can to help but I do not think some members realize what an insult it is to state that they are all fearful of a rookie with a red one.

I don't know one DOP, or hell, even a 1st AC, that I work with that would have a single shred of fear of a rookie with a red. I agree with you. It is totally laughable.

That is why I don;t discourage people from buying them, even if they don't know shit about shit. Like I said, some of them will learn. Hey, maybe it's better to invest in a RED than college for some people, and it may take them farther.

Anyways, that's their business. I wish them all the luck in the world, but yes, I agree with you, IN THE FIELD I WORK IN (I stress that because I cannot talk about other areas of film with true knowledge) there won't be ONE single new person get hired because they own a RED.

High end commercials are who you know, what your reel looks like, and who you know. Did I mention they are who you know?

Anyways, I am not a DP, but still plan on putting together a RED camera package for rent. Why? Because of who I know. I will leave the lighting to the DOP thank you very much. And he will leave the data workflow to me. The DOPs I work with for the most part don't want anything to do with owning and renting out a camera (although some do), and even the ones that do, certainly don't want any part in the data management/video assist side of things.

Anyways, I digress. Finner, you're right, but too harsh. Nice to see your last post. Who gives a damn who buys a red? Like I said, your clients and mine won't go to anyone but a trusted source for their gear. Their jobs depend on it. If they can get a RED for $200 from joe blow, they simply ain't gonna do it. It's why (on the rare ocaasions they do it), when they rent HVX200s, they don't get that guy who will come out for $500 a day including his camera. They pay $250/day from a rental house they trust.

[Finner]

Finner, you're right, but too harsh. Nice to see your last post.

I have actually chilled out in my old age. You should have met me 10 years ago, Boy that guy was a dick!:ohmy:

[number6]

Rather than comment on he/she saids, I will make an overview statement and then go make lunch. There are those who work hard to learn their craft and do the daily work to put their talents to use. This takes a certain mindset and is not a bad thing.

There are others who see the way things are and say there are other ways to do things. They are the O.A. Demings of the world who say you do not have to have inventory on hand, as long as it arrives to the assembly site on time. Others are the oilfield wildcatters who will convince a group of investors that there really is oil in a place that the bean counters say is too risky to drill for it. They are the risk takers whose efforts may produce a dry hole, or perhaps open up a vast new field to explore.

Add to both lists of type, RED camera users. Yes, the camera will be used in the traditional way for a time to come. But it will only take one really good software algorithm (Campaign slogan for 2000... I've got that Al Gore Rhythm) to make it possible for a couple of people shooting with a RED to wirelessly transfer RAW data into 100 TB holograph or similar storage device, and then do the post work like a pro in record time.

Those of us who have not had our brains washed over with old technology will be more amenable to accepting new ways of proceeding. Those who think the Edsel will last forever will not, and they will simply become opaque. Sure, they have nothing to worry about at present and for an undetermined time to come. And I think it will not be evident when it happens, but I believe it will happen.

So, should anyone fear the undaunted digital recordist who can do it faster, cheaper, better? Who knows? What difference does it make? You can't change history. You can only affect the path that will become history. So if you think everything stays the same, do nothing to prepare for change.

In the end, the only thing I think that we can really say will be necessary for ALL time to come is.... home cooking. And I feel the necessity for some of that right now.

[Joel Kaye]

I don't know one DOP, or hell, even a 1st AC, that I work with that would have a single shred of fear of a rookie with a red. I agree with you. It is totally laughable.

I think you guys are right. The big hope for newbies needs to be to build their own network of clients. They'll start out working free on low risk projects. Fail/Succeed/Meet People... those people know other people - repeat. If they're good they'll build a business. RED's a great tool.

Take your minds out of LA or NY for a moment. There are A LOT of medium sized towns around the world that MIGHT have one RED if they are lucky. Having a RED will get you in the conversation. If you're an idiot and can't get along with people it won't matter much.

To me, buying a RED and shooting the hell out of it for a year until you create your network and then selling your RED isn't a bad plan. My experience has been I don't learn something well until I'm immersed in it. It's tough to get that renting. Some guys will get years of RED experience jammed into 6 months of ownership. Certainly more experience than you'd get at film school.

Maybe you'll lose $5k but start a career. Or move on to something else because it didn't work out. It's good either way. A lot guys lose $100k on film school and never do anything in the industry. And not own a camera they can bail out of.

A friend of mine was an A.D. for years and he used to tell me he always had 50 guys deep lined up for grip jobs because it was so hard to get on film crew. Another guy told me a friend of his worked for 2 years for free as a grip before he ever got paid... then he got in the Union in made really good money.

Do those sound like better plans than buying a RED?

And having RED in the first year is really the best time to take the gamble. Maybe you find out you're a zen level colorist. Every RED is going to need one.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Guys, Lets be cool here..
This camera was made for the underdog.
but it was also made for the superstar.
That is the amazing thing!
a 10 year old can shoot amazing footage (speculating he has an eye for composition)
a seasoned veteran of digital cinema can shoot this thing..
This tool is just A TOOL.
Learn it. use it. and master it!
make some beautiful films.
Everyone has the right to make movies now.

[chuck colburn]

What does all this have to do with a Nikon mount on the RED camera?

[Sean R.]

That's what I was thinking. This belongs in the Jerry Springer forum

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I think it's a funny conversation, because I've never assumed that getting a RED One would make me a great cinematographer, nor do I have any ambitions to be a cinematographer. I have a ton of respect for the technical AND artistic skills that a good DP brings to a project, and will pay accordingly based on my budget. I wouldn't think of operating the RED myself. I'm a writer-director, and above all a businessman.

As a businessman with a production company, it makes much more sense to own the RED than to rent it, or anything else for that matter. Especially because we have the ability to develop a network of clients not only that we produce projects for, but that we rent equipment to. I don't care if "the big guys" want to go get ripped off at a big rental house, who cares? The medium guys will rent from us, because they know us, and we'll build a network of clients who expect more affordable prices and better service from us. Not to mention we'll do enough productions per year to justify owning.

[Ken K]

I hate to further derail this thread, but Finner's Naughty Goat has me really intrigued. I thought this was just a really bad mom and pop video shop, but they talk about the Red in their "about us" section and have two reservations:

http://www.mallowmedia.com/aboutus.html

Who does this site belong to? Finner, is this your doing? :detective2: I am astounded by the video clips. Simply stunned.

Thank you for posting this, though - today has been one of the worst days in a long time and this site made me laugh (a good hearty wtf kind of laugh). :)

[Ben Goldenberg]

This is my second post, and I am also a newbie of sorts that has just ordered a red. I am actually appalled at some of the crap in this post so I have been compelled to add me two cents. The red is an amazing project that does so many things to so many people on different levels. A cinematographer may buy one and get more work/upgrade his reel or some rich kid may buy one and make Jackass type films....that look like Lawrence of Arabia. I personally have graduated film school and am a fairly competent cinematographer but I certainly know one tenth of what a genius like Fennir, or whatever that losers name is, knows. Does it really offend you people so much that I may have a need for this kind of camera, and that it wont affect your precious jobs or rental rates. I am frankly sick of shooting and directing my own shorts and having them fall short of the competition just because my sony pd150 looks like a security cam. I shot a thesis film on 35mm that I spent my entire life savings on and it turned out to be my worst short film of the entire school year, but it looked the best and therefore had a greater suspension of disbelief. Frankly, I think you are just scared because all your friends are shooting 140 million dollar movies, and you are not. You are scared that some guy like me is going to come out of the woodwork because my storytelling abilities are better then yours, and now our work is on par. I look forward to using my RED to shoot better films then you can, and then taking my movie check and hiring you. This way when I am sitting in my directors chair I can laugh at you slaving your precious lights around the set while I sip my latte.

[PaulClements]

Hi,

I think the point that Finner is making is that amateurs will be using the camera and filming poor footage and other professionals will have a lessened opinion of RedOne as a camera.

The argument against this however is that people have been filming crap in 35mm for years and it's never harmed the use of it.

Any DP with an ounce of knowledge will be able to see past all the junk that will arise and see the potential quality there. So for me it's a none issue.

Lets get back to talking about lenses here shall we?

Paul

[Eddie]

ridiculous read... Sometimes Reduser.net turns into some weird psychology casestudy.
This thread for instance has a kind of "smeagul" feel to it, which pops up more and more often. You kan almost feel peoples heavy breathing
:sick: ... "My Precious..."
Luckily there is going two be plenty of reds around for everybody, and I gueess it´s gonna go away again when people get their cameras.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

haha, yeah it is kind of funny, but I'm not so sure every independent production company that is getting a RED One or several RED Ones is actually planning on having inexperienced people shoot with them.

Our plan at this time is to rent the RED Ones when we can, but because we run a small production company we will give our clients the option of shooting with the RED One, which our production company (an S Chapter corporation in California) would rent from our rental company (yet to be formed, probably also a corporation) on a project-by-project basis, with the rental costs built into the budget as well as the cost of a good DP who knows how to work with the camera. Neither my partner nor I know much of anything about cinematography; we're both trying to learn as much as possible, but he is a producer and I'm a writer-director. Our interests are in mastering our trades. I'd much rather work with good DPs and let their skills shine while I focus on what I need to do as a director. Of course, I hope to learn as much about cinematography as I can from those I work with, and think it's important for a director to know a bit about everything (same with a producer), but if crappy footage comes out of my RED it won't be me filming it. I'd be quite disappointed.

[Moir]

What does all this have to do with a Nikon mount on the RED camera?

This is just a bit of foreplay...the mounting comes later, after the farting goat. What thread does a Nike mount use, anyway?

[wshultz]

4K crap is just gonna look like high rez crap. I don't think anyone is going to have a problem telling whether or not they should hire a person based on the camera they own. I can't see this hurting Red at all. If someone hires a crap shooter and get burned, they have it coming.

I just have a problem with self-appointed Red Police who, if they could, would decide who gets to have a Red and who doesn't. It's a freakin' non-issue.

I was a complete Newbie who didn't know @#$% when I picked up a VideoToaster way back when and thought I was going to be in the TV business. Guess what. Now I make a nice living directing, shooting and editing and have been hired on three continents using current tools and cameras.

So here's what it has to do with Nikon mounts. If you're smart enough to ask the question and learn to change mounts, you might be smart enough to learn to shoot. And if not, at least you tried. And if it's your money and you can afford to lose it then spend it how you want!

[Seung Han]

So here's what it has to do with Nikon mounts. If you're smart enough to ask the question and learn to change mounts, you might be smart enough to learn to shoot. And if not, at least you tried. And if it's your money and you can afford to lose it then spend it how you want!

I agree with you, and after asking this question and combing through the threads on the forum, I now have a decent idea of lens options.

As far as owning these cameras, I intend to shoot and learn as much as I can on my own time because it is a very important tool in my craft.

Also, after reading a lot about mounts and differrent types of adaptors, I agree with the people who are frustrated that they have yet to create a way to change mounts without worrying about collimation! LOL

It would be cool to get the PL mount with the 18-50mm Red Lens and a Nikon Adaptor so I can get some fast wide and telephoto Nikon Prime Lenses... Does that sound right? :clown2:

[wshultz]

You'll probably use that 18-50 range around 90 percent of the time. Since the mount swap is a 15 to 20 minute process (according to Jarred, I think) I don't know if it's worth it. You wouldn't want to go that route on a job. If you're going to go with the Nikon mount anyway, then get the 17-35 (in the sticky above) and supplement with your super wides and telephotos. Personally I'm going that route at first until I can commit to the Red lenses permanently.

[Michael Schrengohst]

You'll probably use that 18-50 range around 90 percent of the time. Since the mount swap is a 15 to 20 minute process (according to Jarred, I think) I don't know if it's worth it. You wouldn't want to go that route on a job. If you're going to go with the Nikon mount anyway, then get the 17-35 (in the sticky above) and supplement with your super wides and telephotos. Personally I'm going that route at first until I can commit to the Red lenses permanently.

Ditto: if you are not sure and you are not going into the rental business
then try the Nikon/Canon route first. With the RED there is plenty to
figure out with regards to worlkflow etc. The last thing you want to do
is drop $7000-$15,000 more on cine lenses and worry about how
to figure out your cashflow. If you really figure out the RED and you get
some projects under your belt shot with the still lenses then by all
means purchase the RED lenses and sell your Nikon's on ebay.
And I am sure you could get top dollar for a Nikon RED mount as well.

[Dan McCain]

Just a reminder, pulling focus on nikons is really tough, and nearly impossible to do professionally, by measuring, guessing distance etc! I have been doing it for three years (along with other cine lenses) and can't wait to upgrade away from the nikons. They are OK with documentary B-Roll, talking head etc. but for narrative watch out! Especially if you are on a professional set where you can get fired for bad focus, just be warned!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Just a reminder, pulling focus on nikons is really tough, and nearly impossible to do professionally, by measuring, guessing distance etc!

What lenses?
I havent had much of a problem with my nikons.
Curious to find out what lenses other people are using.

[Evin Grant]

Just a reminder, pulling focus on nikons is really tough, and nearly impossible to do professionally, by measuring, guessing distance etc! I have been doing it for three years (along with other cine lenses) and can't wait to upgrade away from the nikons. They are OK with documentary B-Roll, talking head etc. but for narrative watch out! Especially if you are on a professional set where you can get fired for bad focus, just be warned!


This won't be an issue. It's much faster to use the zoom in function on the Red, focus and set marks. We were using a pretty nice set of Zeiss Super Speeds on Mon. & Tues., even wide open, and this proved much faster and more accurate than taping. Most of the Nikkors have accurate focus marks if well maintained but It's not relavant anymore. As long as the focus is smooth and the throw adequate.

[Dan McCain]

Zakarree I dont know what you are coming from, 1st A.C., operator, still photographs, so I dont know how exact your idea of good focus pulling is. If you think nikons are easy maybe you are an excellent focus puller or maybe you never pulled difficult focus.

I have the following manual nikor lenses 16mm, 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm, 105mm, 135mm, 300mm with permanent focus gears installed.

I am talking about pulling focus with hvx200/mini35 with a rapper walking beside a dolly moving from 3 - 9 feet at random on a 85mm at 1.4. Or shooting with a 85mm 1.4 moving from 10 to 5 feet away from a subject on a stedi-cam with no marks. With cine lenses you have a fighting chance guessing distance. With nikons I never trust the witness marks, so I usually have to eye focus and you can focus with monitor but you will always have buzzes in the focus if you operate this way. Also the distance between the witness marks is so tiny on nikons that the slightest pull jumps between distances much quicker than on cine lenses so there is little room to finesse and small margin or error. If you compare this to the feeling of pulling on Cooke S4s, nikons are a nightmare.

Sure you can get the focus from point A to B but when the actors miss the marks you take an already challenging focus pulling situation and make it harder. People investing in nikons are probably going to have smaller lighting packages so you will be shooting at higher f stops and the depth of field with be compressed. Also dont forget nikons gears are reversed!

I am not saying I suck, I can typically operate AND pull focus on a 300 mm and keep a subject walking toward the camera in sharp focus for a good 6 seconds at 30 - 20 feet away. It is just very difficult.

[Evin Grant]

S4s have a very new innovation which extends the focus range over an almost 720º rotation this is not something most Red owners will have the luxury of affording. Nikons are not prefect but neither is a heavily used set of super speeds if they aren't collimated properly and I've seen that as much as not. It remains to be seen but I'd hazard a guess the Birger will offer the definetive way to use Nikon & Canon still lenses, electronic maping of the focus range to the desired rotation on the follow focus knob. Untill then we'll just have to deal.

[wshultz]

It seems if you could map the Birger to a full 360 deg. with 4000 plus motor steps, the throw will no longer be an issue. I'm guessing it will make these lenses very viable.

[Jaime Vallés]

It seems if you could map the Birger to a full 360 deg. with 4000 plus motor steps, the throw will no longer be an issue. I'm guessing it will make these lenses very viable.
Totally. The "issues" with SLR lenses disappear the minute you have computerized control over focusing (assuming the Birger mount works as advertised).

BTW, does anyone know if Sigma, Tokina and Tamron lenses work with the Birger mount?

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'm betting birger is designing the system to work via the silent wave motor in the better lenses, as it is much more precise. The off brand lenses don't pack that kinda gizmo. Any one know for sure?

[Evin Grant]

Sigma does have some "HSM" lenses hyper sonic motor.

[Seung Han]

S4s have a very new innovation which extends the focus range over an almost 720º rotation this is not something most Red owners will have the luxury of affording. Nikons are not prefect but neither is a heavily used set of super speeds if they aren't collimated properly and I've seen that as much as not. It remains to be seen but I'd hazard a guess the Birger will offer the definetive way to use Nikon & Canon still lenses, electronic maping of the focus range to the desired rotation on the follow focus knob. Untill then we'll just have to deal.

Hey Evin, in your opinion how steep do you think the learning/experience curve will be from a mini-DV camera to focusing on a RED Zoom compared to a Nikon Lens on a Birger adaptor? For somebody like me, will focusing on a Red Zoom be a lot easier or comparable to the Birger Adaptor? If this is a real concern I would rather spend more and get the Red Zooms... Thanks for all your advice!

[Dan McCain]

There are people who make careers out of pulling focus for 35mm, so don't under estimate the skill involved. I would say however the zoom is probably going to be easier to pull focus on than nikons with birger. However your best bet is to hire a good 1st A.C.

[Seung Han]

Yeah, I fully intend to hire the best professionals, including a great DP and a spot-on AC, I can get for my projects. Still, I am in Korea and with the slight language barrier I want the most efficient hassle-free workflow possible I can afford. The reason I am asking is to gauge how much time I will be spending on repeated takes because of possible focus problems, because I will assume the AC and DP I work with in Korea might not have worked with still camera lenses on a Birger Adaptor. Its been my experience as a director I am always fighting TIME to get what I need for the day. On a small budget feature, I can't afford to introduce new processes to people unfamiliar with them while expecting the same results. If the differences are negligible, great. I will spend less money and still feel confident.

Maybe I'm jumping the gun here and we'll find out soon enough. Just getting eager to fit all the pieces together...

[Finner]

On a small budget feature, I can't afford to introduce new processes to people unfamiliar with them while expecting the same results


Unless you hire a DP that already owns a RED camera with a team that is familiar with the camera likely they will be unfamiliar with the entire camera process and the birger stills adapter item would by far be the easiest part of the process to learn. I am not saying there will not be DP's that do not own the camera that will know it but I see for the most part at the begining owners being the most knowledgeable with the process and system.

[Finner]

This is my second post, and I am also a newbie of sorts that has just ordered a red. I am actually appalled at some of the crap in this post so I have been compelled to add me two cents. The red is an amazing project that does so many things to so many people on different levels. A cinematographer may buy one and get more work/upgrade his reel or some rich kid may buy one and make Jackass type films....that look like Lawrence of Arabia. I personally have graduated film school and am a fairly competent cinematographer but I certainly know one tenth of what a genius like Fennir, or whatever that losers name is, knows.
So the name is Finner by the way and if you had taken the time to actually read the posts you would have understood that I feel students (specializing in camera work) or or budding DOP's are probably some of the main people that should be buying this camera. It is Directors or people that have no clue how to actually use a camera that are crazy to be buying one. If a person can not use a pro-sumer camera to its full potential buying a RED is a clear mistake. I do not think you are a loser Mr. Wimp but maybe you could take some courses to help improve your reading comprehension (If those words are too big for you what I am saying is take a class to learn to read more better!)

By the way if you think some rich kid with no experience is going to buy a RED and create footage that looks like Lawrence of Arabia you really should go back to film school as obviously you did not learn a thing the first time at it. But I have a feeling you are not the sharpest tool in the shed but with your poor reading skills I could see how school would be tough.


Does it really offend you people so much that I may have a need for this kind of camera, and that it wont affect your precious jobs or rental rates. I am frankly sick of shooting and directing my own shorts and having them fall short of the competition just because my sony pd150 looks like a security cam.

The people that I mention concern to is ones that think simply owning a RED will be their ticket into the industry or think it will instantly make a lucrative bussiness for them.

I totally understand your desire to no longer shoot with a PD 150 and with your experience I think buying a RED is a smart move.


I shot a thesis film on 35mm that I spent my entire life savings on and it turned out to be the worst short film of the entire school year

Worst film of the year huh. WOW sounds like you have some real talent there MR. Wimp.


Frankly, I think you are just scared because all your friends are shooting 140 million dollar movies, and you are not. You are scared that some guy like me is going to come out of the woodwork because my storytelling abilities are better then yours, and now our work is on par.

I am not really worried that I am not doing $140 million movies yet as I know it takes time and experience to get there which I do not have yet but am working towards unlike some of you inexperienced dilusional people on here that think simply owning a RED will thrust you to the forefront of the who's who of filmakers.

As far as the part about how you will be a better story teller and create better films then me. Well you don't know me so I think it is a little obtuse for you to make such a statement. But from what you have told me of yourself it seems that you made the worst student film of your class so really so it appears that your story telling skills are quite amazing.


I look forward to using my RED to shoot better films then you can, and then taking my movie check and hiring you. This way when I am sitting in my directors chair I can laugh at you slaving your precious lights around the set while I sip my latte.

I feel it is important for everyone to put in their time schluping gear around as it is a good learning experience. I put in my time and no longer do that. As for yourself with your attitude, clear inexperience and poor execution (worst short film) I would think you would be very lucky if someone would even be willing to hire you to move the garbage on set.

I sent you a PM Mr. Wimp long before I came back at you with this post. I had hoped you would respond as the PM nicely asked you why you had made this post and I tried to explain that I believe you misunderstood me but after waiting and seeing you could not be bothered to reply I decided to post this. I belive you will remain a wimp for a long time as I do not see pimp in your future.

[Drew Mylrea]

Finner, stop being so mean. It's unnecessary and ruining the awesome Reduser vibe.

[Adrian T.]

Finner, it's not worth your time to deal with such kids...

[Evin Grant]

I just finished a Music video on the Red, alot of which I focused by eye using T1.3 Superspeeds, it's definately possible if you're patient. I don't see still lenses as any harder.

[Joel Kaye]

I don't see still lenses as any harder.

Have you tried out some Nikon SLR lenses yet? Or are you comparing to previous 35mm adapter experience?

[jbeale]

I'm betting birger is designing the system to work via the silent wave motor in the better lenses, as it is much more precise. The off brand lenses don't pack that kinda gizmo.
Is it really true that the Canon mount lens focus motors have precise absolute positioning? Or just relative positioning? Since the "in focus" condition is determined by the focus sensor in the camera, not the lens, the lens-camera system would work just as well without either one knowing absolute focus distance in terms of meters, feet etc. As I recall, the latest Canon flash units do factor in reported focus distance from the lens, but I think not all of the lenses support that.

[Seung Han]

Hey Finner,

When I first bought my DVX2000 and PD-150 I did not know how to use DV cameras since my two previous short films were shot on 16mm. It did not stop me from making shorts that have gone to festivals and win awards, some of them cash prizes. Those shorts have led me to investors who are willing to bet money on a feature project written by me. Again, many people have different reasons for getting this camera. You are being very presumptuous of thinking your reasons are the only valid ones.

You seem very knowledgable about cinematography, so do you have any input on my particular questions? If not, please stop with the negativity. Also, your views on the RED seem like the complete opposite of the man who actually built them. Maybe you should take the time to read Jim's post and re-focus your views on who this camera was built for...

"We recognize that delivering the camera is only the beginning. We are anxious to help our customers "learn" how to use it. We can't provide the script or the actors, but we can help newcomers deal with the new problems they face with pro equipment. Pulling focus, manual everything, workflow. We hope to create a series of "boot camps" for RED. We also want to encourage a community that shares knowledge. We'll step in whenever we can to help online.

Pros will have to adapt from existing equipment to RED. That will be pretty easy. Those stepping up from an HVX or DVcam will have their hands full. We want to be there to help the learning experience be a fun one."

- Jim Jannard

[Finner]

I agree with what you say Seung. What I am posting in regards to ownership of the camera is just what I have seen to work for most in the industry as I have seen many more fail then make it. The ones that most often seem to make it are those that focus in on the craft they wish to excell at. By that I mean if you are a DP or one with that goal or even a director/DP or one with that goal the purchase of a red is a great choice and probably much better then the purchase of a boom mic and mixer. Just like if your goal is to be a director then be a director and put as much of your budgets into your projects where you have to and save money by renting a camera or better yet getting a great deal on a DP that comes with a RED for a great package price.

If you have a great script (sounds like you have been at this for a while Seung so I would bet your script and ideas get better each time) hence with a great script and good direction finding a promising DP with a RED that may even be willing to shoot your movie for free or close to it would not be hard. I would bet you could post on here a DP with red wanted in korea post and if you paid their flight and gave them a place to stay I think you would be suprised how big a response you would get. So for just a few thousand you could have your movie made including a promising DP grad from one of the great film schools the US has or other strong cinematic countries. Heck if I was not working I would even entertain an offer like that. In the end this would save you a ton of money. Some eager to build a reel DP's may even be willing to pay all their own way just to build a reel. In the end this would just give you a chance to put the money on the screen and make a better film.

I am not saying don't make your film or don't follow your dream so please don't misunderstand that. All I am saying is if a person is a director that does not shoot their own films what reason is there to own a camera. I have worked with many directors over the years and unless they had been DOP's in the past or were director/dp's I never met one that had owned a camera. Just because something is a good price does not make it a good deal if you do not need it and as I see it a director that does not plan to shoot really has no use for a camera.

I wish you the best of luck with your future and your films as I hope you are one of the few that make it Seung. I just feel there may be other options that would help you make your films better (I assume you did not own the 16mm camera when you shot your 16mm film.) By the way I am doing a commercial with a red camera next week and it there was a flood of people with reds interested in renting their red out for the 3 day shoot and currently there are only 50 reds in circulation. I won't even begin to mention how cheap some were offered for but I will say that even with only 50 cameras out some peoples rental prices were shockingly low. Finding a red for cheap or close to free with a DP to shoot your films will not be the hard part in fact it will not be long before you are able to find someone in this industry without a red.

So in the end all I am saying is if a person plans to be a director save your money for the film and hire one of the many great young future DP's that plan to buy a RED just to build a reel. You will find them for cheap as there are many in that boat right here on these boards. Best of luck again Seung. Please send me a PM and I will give you my e-mail address as I would genuinely like to see some of your work and honestly if when you are shooting your film if I would be available at the time I would seriosly consider DPing your film with my camera for just the cost of my flight and a place to sleep. If I could not come I know of 2 others just off the top of my head that are getting cameras and would be willing just for the experience of shooting a film in Korea.

cheer's
Daren

[Mike]

But be very careful though, I have tried getting free services as well and ultimately, the person did not turn up in the airport, after everything has worked out perfectly well prior to that.

There is a real danger in getting services from people you do not know especially for free and low cost, as I have experienced them myself. It will ultimately cost you more as all locations, crews, talents schedule has been fixed and so on.

Not to say that it will happen, but just a word of advice from someone who has experienced it. Although it did not really affect our shoot that much as the person we were getting was not as crucial as the scenario like this, when you are dealing with a person who owns the camera.

[Finner]

Totally agree Mike but if the person is of what seems like quality they have their reputation which is more important then anything else.

Heck though i have even had people that were paid well not show up for a job before.

[Ramesh Jai]

With no disrespect to anyone, kindly break up your post into more paragraphs so it's easier on the eye.

[Finner]

Sorry rameshjai

Typing too late last night.

[Steve Murray]

STILL CAMERA LENSES


This is an effort to bring still camera lens info for the non PL crowd into one place.

One rule that I think everyone should follow -- TEST every lens you consider buying (if possible) or after you buy (lenses from eBay) before using. Do not believe online reviews for lenses as that review only applies to THAT specific lens. Every single lens is unique - especially the new zooms. Please test your lenses. *see note below.

Focus breathing can be a problem with many of these lenses -- so test! If you are shooting drama and will be focusing back and forth on talent then you may want to avoid these still lenses and stick with the Red or other Cine lenses. If you have the money you should buy good PL mount Cine lenses.

If you are on a budget like most people.....

Nikon F -- Older manual focus lenses, these will work without the Berger mount. They will stop down and focus but they also have click stops. If that bugs you it can be fixed. Nikon F lenses are a good, affordable choice. Fast Nikon lenses can hard to find for sale and are more expensive compared to Canon FD. Almost any Nikon lens ever made will still fit on the latest Nikon camera therefore most of these lenses are still in use and used prices are high.

Canon FD -- Because these lenses will not fit on the EOS film or digital cameras they were quickly becoming paper weights before the various 35mm adapters and the RED allowed them to have a new life. Contrary to everything you will read online... these very affordable and easy to find lenses can be fixed so that they will stop down. And at the same time you can also have the ball bearings removed that make the click stops. A camera repair tech can do this for you - and although you can... I do not recommend doing this yourself. I had my Canon FD lenses fixed for an average of $30.00 each. They now stop down smoothly and work great with the FF gears I added from RedRock Micro. There are old and really old FD lenses. The oldest versions have a silver ring on the rear of the lens that spins to lock the lens on the camera. Some of these are good but they are old and will not have the better lens coatings of the verison without that ring. Many of the best and the fastest lenses are "L" lenses which at the time were the best quality Canon lenses made.

On the older Nikon and Canon above be careful of the older zooms as most are not as good as the primes, many have slide in & out zooming and often the focus is hard to use since few of these were internal focus.

Newer Nikon DX AND CANON EF-S -- These lenses are made for the small sensor digital cameras so they just barely cover the S35 sensor on the Red at 4K. All are auto focus and the focus rings are very skinny. I would AVOID buying these if you are planning to shoot 4.5K RAW. The Canon EF-S and the Nikon G models do not have aperture rings so you must have the Berger mount to stop down.

Nikon AF-S -- Full frame coverage, manual & auto focus - some of these fine lenses will require the Berger mount to work properly. Proceed with caution and check these before buying as each lens can work differently for focus especially the many zoom's. Again some of the focus rings are very skinny. The G models do not have aperture rings so you must have the Berger to stop down.

Canon EF (EOS) -- Auto focus and a few manual focus zooms and primes. Very good lenses but the Berger mount is needed for most of these lenses for stopping down. You can use these without the Berger and they will focus manually but they will not stop down... so what is the point? If you are going to buy / use these try to get the highest quality "L" lenses. You will have to buy a Berger or stick with the older Nikon F or Canon FD manual lenses... that is if you cannot afford a Red or other PL mount Cine lens.

The new zooms can be very good. I have had several Nikon and my current Canon zooms are very sharp even wide open at F/2.8. The main problem you will find is that most wide zooms go soft & dark in the corners wide open. I think that you will find that is OK with the Red since that part of the lenses should not be a factor on S35mm. On the RED these lenses will have great coverage.

Tamron, Tokina, Sigma, and Vivitar -- Some are good, some are crap. You will find these off-brands in all of the mount versions listed above especially on eBay. All the new super-wide DX & EF-S zooms I tried had really bad fringing problems in the corners since they barely cover S35 they will be very disappointing to most people. Caution with the wide zooms, purchase new and TEST before buying.

-----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------

eBay: -- Many people will tell you to avoid eBay when buying cameras & lenses. I have purchased 24 Canon FD lenses from eBay over the last 3 months to use on my RedRock M2 and the RedOne when it comes. Only 2 of these were not sharp enough when tested. I think that is a reasonable risk / reward considering that I now have a full set of primes from 7.5mm to 600mm for about the cost of one PL zoom lens. Be careful however, only buy from people with good feedback (93% or higher), who have several good photos and be sure read the descriptions carefully. I have done eBay since 1999 and have competed over 400 auctions with only a few minor problems. I think that it is still the easiest way to find the older lenses. Good luck.

*NOTE: When I switched to Canon EOS last year I had to buy five yes, five 24-70mm zooms before I found one that was sharp enough. It took three 16-35mm zooms to find a good one. So do not assume that a lens, new or old, is sharp & working properly until you test it.

RedOne
Panasonic HPX500 & HVX200
Panasonic Varicam - for 5 years - just sold it.
Canon FD 7.5mm to 500mm lenses

Canon EOS 1Ds MK II
16-35mm F/2.8 L II
24-70mm F/2.8L
70-200mm F/2.8L
300mm F/2.8L
500mm F/4.5L

[Seung Han]

Thanks Enzo, I find your post very helpful. When your break it down like that, it is much easier to understand other posts discussing individuals lenses. I really appreciate it! :usd:

[Jaime Vallés]

Enzo, thanks for the writeup. One thing, though... The Nikon "G" lenses should work on RED. They don't cover full-frame 35mm STILL photography, but they should cover 35mm and S35mm CINEMA photography. I would say that "G" lenses will be some of the primary lenses us low-budget folks will be using.

[Bill Goehring]

Enzo--

"Newer Nikon G -- These AF-S DX lenses are made for the small sensor digital cameras so they WILL NOT COVER the S35 sensor on the Red. All are auto focus, I think a few do not even have a focus ring and the focus rings are very skinny. The "G" is usually just after the f/# like f/2.8G I would AVOIC THESE."

The only G lens I own I bought for my Nikon D2X, because the DX format left me uncovered on the wide end of my Nikkor lens system. It's the Nikkor AF 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF AF-S and it DOES have a focus ring and allows for manual focus, although it is, as you say, quite skinny. What it does NOT have is an aperature ring.

But not to worry. Even though one of these G series lenses will be difficult, if not impossible, to use on the RED Nikon mount, I believe that Erik of Birger Engineering has stated that the G series WILL be functional through the entire aperature range with the Birger Nikon Mount.

Also note in the "Relevant Red Formats" section of Brook Willard's sticky "Red One FAQ" that the Nikkor DX format lenses will, indeed, cover the 4k Mysterium format, if not the 4.5k Mysterium format (although it is beginning to look unlikely that all but the extremely hard-core will be using 4.5k framing, which currently appears will only be used for recording the uncompressed RAW format with the $6,500 RAW module) and the lesser 2k format. It IS possible that the corners of the DX format lenses may go a bit soft and dark for 4.5k and 4k framing, since those lenses do not afford the luxury of using only the "sweet spot" of standard 35mm still lenses. But, since we have yet to see any tests with Nikkor DX lenses, let's not jump to conclusions.

EDIT: Oops! Beat me to it, Jaime.

[Steve Murray]

You are most welcome. When I shot in Thailand a few years ago I found the crew there to be very good and able to quickly adapt to my Panasonic Varicam even though they had never shot with one before. The AC and everyone on the crew were as good as any I have used anywhere. I'm sure that no matter what lens system you decide on your local crew folks will quickly adapt and do great.

I would be happy to help you in Korea or anywhere in Asia....anytime.

[Steve Murray]

I think you are correct that the "G" lenses may just barely cover the RED at 4k but I'm saying that for the same money you can get other options that will cover 4.5K and also be sharp in the corners with room to spare. On the RED the full frame lenses will give some room in the corners. With the "G" and the Canon APS-C lenses you will not have that luxury.

I had a 12-24mm and it was pretty good in the corners on a D2X and I even tried it on a Kodak SLR/n full frame camera to see how much I could cheat (couldn't as it crapped out at around 17.5mm) and the 17-35mm was much better. I would not recommend any "G" or Canon APS-C lenses for the RED because I think in the long run you will be disappointed.

Nikon's decision to not make a full-frame camera is why I switched to Canon last year - this after shooting Nikon for over 30 years! I LOVE my Canon 16-35mm and my 14mm on my 1Ds MK II. That is 4mm wider than the 12-24. And I tried the all off-brand 10 and 11mm zooms and they were crap.

I would stick with the full frame coverage options and if one's budget it that tight I still think that the Nikon, Canon FD's or even the off-brand lenses (as long as they are tested) are the cheapest way to go and end up with sharp images.

After all that is the point in the end and at 4K you will see every problem.

This FAQ post by Brook shows the formats and coverage really well.
It is way down at the bottom:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1487


Good shooting.

[Bill Goehring]

I think you are correct that the "G" lenses may just barely cover the RED at 4k but I'm saying that for the same money you can get other options that will cover 4.5K and also be sharp in the corners with room to spare. On the RED the full frame lenses will give some room in the corners.


Are you really considering shooting with 4.5k framing, along with the expense of the $6,500 RAW module and a RAID solution that can handle that firehose-like stream of data, not to mention the storage of that data?

Besides, you won't find any other rectilinear Nikkor optics that are 12mm wide (18mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k), nor will you find any full-frame zooms below 17mm wide (24mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k). The widest you'll find is the 14mm
prime, which is still shy of the 20mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k and relatively expensive @ $1,240 at B&H new vs. the 12-24mm zoom, which is $900 at B&H new), so I don't see any savings in cost and reduced flexibility, to boot.


I would not recommend any "G" lenses for the RED because I think in the long run you will be disappointed. Same goes for the Canon APS-C lenses although they should have a little more coverage since they are covering a slightly larger sensor than Nikon.


I believe that the opposite is true. Don't the Canon APS-C lenses have a 1.6x magnification factor over a full-frame 35mm still frame, while the Nikon DX format lenses have a 1.5x magnification factor over a full-frame 35mm still frame, meaning that the Nikkor DX line has slightly MORE coverage than the Canon APS-C line, not less, right?


Nikon's decision to not make a full-frame camera is why I switched to Canon last year - this after shooting Nikon for over 30 years!


Not to be argumentative, but I guess your move over to Canon was a little premature, as the full-frame Nikon D3 is expected to be released in November, with a higher MP full-frame flagship model expected next year.

While I DO want coverage at the wide end, I suspect shots that will use this wide end will be fleeting, as they will tend to be shorter duration establishing shots, or they will be moving in a way that will hide critical sharpness issues, such as with aerials and steadicam shots.


This FAQ post by Brook shows the formats and coverage really well.
It is way down at the bottom...


Yes, this is the illustration in the FAQ I cited in my previous post.

[Steve Murray]

Are you really considering shooting with 4.5k framing, along with the expense of the $6,500 RAW module and a RAID solution that can handle that firehose-like stream of data, not to mention the storage of that data?

Not at the moment but who knows what will I will need to shoot next year? Or the year after? I'm planning and recommending for the long run, not just for the current moment.

Besides, you won't find any other rectilinear Nikkor optics that are 12mm wide (18mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k), nor will you find any full-frame zooms below 17mm wide (24mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k). The widest you'll find is the 14mm prime, which is still shy of the 20mm full-frame equivalent @ 4k and relatively expensive @ $1,240 at B&H new vs. the 12-24mm zoom, which is $900 at B&H new), so I don't see any savings in cost and reduced flexibility, to boot.

I liked my 12-24mm so if the 12mm covers the 4K frame I may just have to get a Nikon mount in addition to the Canon FD as that would be great and give me 2mm more than my 14mm. I also have a Kinoptik 9.8mm PL that I'm hoping will cover 4K but I'm afraid that it will not as it just barely covered the frame on my old Arri 2C. Or maybe I'll try this out: Canon Zoom Super Wide Angle EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Autofocus Lens - slow but cheap at under $700.00.

I believe that the opposite is true.
Yes. I already corrected that dumb mistake.

Not to be argumentative, but I guess your move over to Canon was a little premature, as the full-frame Nikon D3 is expected to be released in November, with a higher MP full-frame flagship model expected next year.

Well.... I have a 1Ds MK III on order which is 21.1 MP vs. the D3 at 12.1. My clients are always demanding more MP - not that you need them and I think 16MP was enough - but they want 30-39 MP because they think that bigger is better and it is available. I have no regrets switching to Canon except there are way too many buttons on the cameras. The D2X was easier to use.

While I DO want coverage at the wide end, I suspect shots that will use this wide end will be fleeting, as they will tend to be shorter duration establishing shots, or they will be moving in a way that will hide critical sharpness issues, such as with aerials and steadicam shots.

Perhaps. Just remember that I'm trying to help those who are not as familiar with all the various lens options and these recommends are a bit on the conservative side because I do not know what they will be shooting and they may want to shoot 4.5K RAW and would be upset that someone told them to get lenses that may not have enough coverage or be limiting in some way that we have not yet discovered.

[Bill Goehring]

That's cool.

[Evan Owen]

...
I have no regrets switching to Canon except there are way too many buttons on the cameras. The D2X was easier to use.
...

That's ironic, I shoot Canon because I find the EOS system more intuitive and easier to use than any Nikon I've ever tried. :)

To each his own, right?

[Steve Murray]

For sure... That is the only complaint I have.... I'm used to it now. After shooting with every Nikon pro camera made since 1968 and for me to not have any regrets is saying something.

[Stephen Williams]

STILL CAMERA LENSES


Newer Nikon G -- These AF-S DX lenses are made for the small sensor digital cameras so they WILL NOT COVER the S35 sensor on the Red.

Hi,

I believe you are incorrect, the Red sensor is almost the same size as a DX sensor so they will cover without problems.

Stephen

[Steve Murray]

I corrected that mistake, thanks. I think you will still find that if you shoot wide open with the super-wide zoom lenses you may get some softness in the corners on the RED. And all the off-brand versions I tried had terrible color fringing.

This is really a post for newbies... So I guess my point is that IF you do not already own these lenses and are trying to figure out what to purchase for the RED that most people would be better off with full frame lenses for most uses. If they cannot afford Cine PL lenses.

[Bill Goehring]

...I guess my point is that IF you do not already own these lenses and are trying to figure out what to purchase for the RED that most people would be better off with full frame lenses for most uses. If they cannot afford Cine PL lenses.

That sounds about right to me.

But I still have some lingering doubts about whether my Nikkor 35-70mm and 80-200mm full-frame zooms, with their push-pull focal length adjustment designs, will be a problem once they are geared up with the Birger Nikon Mount and whether a tilt-up or -down of the tripod head will cause the gearing to slip apart, should the lens barrel creep one way or the other.

[Stephen Williams]

I corrected that mistake, thanks. I think you will still find that if you shoot wide open with the super-wide zoom lenses you may get some softness in the corners on the RED. And all the off-brand versions I tried had terrible color fringing.



Hi,

Many lenses have problems wide open, even the 3.5mm Zeiss DigiPrimes costing around $30,000 portholes slightly until stopped down 1 stop. (That lens won't work directly on a Red I know, just an example of a very expensive lens not being perfect.)

Stephen

[Gary McClurg]

For my first post. All I can say is I loved these two comments...

What does all this have to do with a Nikon mount on the RED camera? after five pages of nothing to do with the Nikon mounts.

And the post about the waiter shooting his film and providing craft service was great.

I was wondering has anyone give thought to using this lens?

The new Angenieux Cinestyle zoom...

http://www.angenieux.com/pages/308.php?URL_Id=90&URL_Page=/pages/003.php

[Steve Murray]

That lens will require a B4 adapter as it's for 2/3" HD cameras like a Varicam or HPX500. Also probably will not cover the S35 RED sensor so only good for 2K.

[Steve Murray]

My Nikon 35-70mm was a problem even shooting stills but it was kinda loose anyway. I do not like the one-touch zoom lenses for RED use. How can you zoom and pull focus if you need to do both in a shot? There are a lot of these zoom lenses out there but I do not see how you can use them for any serious shooting with talent / drama.

A few things to consider:

If you plan on zooming by hand while shooting... I will advise against that idea as I tried it when I started out and it is very hard to do smoothly and makes your footage look amateur.

If you plan to add a follow focus ring to these lenses you will have a problem when zooming because the FF ring will be moving and therefore disengage from the FF control.

If you plan on using these zooms as "variable primes" and not zooming while shooting then no problem except you may have to have a camera tech tighten them so they do not zoom when you tilt up or down -- or bring a lot of camera tape...

The Berger may be the best & affordable solution to this problem using the newer lenses like your 12-24mm or the Canon 10-22mm.

[Steve Murray]

That's for sure Stephen. My two Canon EF wide zoom lenses are sharp at F2.8 except in the very corners but like I said in the post I had to test a bunch of lenses to find them.

I had the same problems with my 17-35mm F2.8 Nikon and it took several to find a good one of those.

I do not like soft corners and cannot always or want to stop down therefore I would prefer to use the sweet part of these full-frame still lenses and not push the limits with barely getting coverage at 4K from a DX lens. Except for maybe that Canon 10-22mm.... If I can find a sharp enough one.

[jaadgy akanni]

Let me set something straight here. A "G" lens is one without an aperture ring, but they can either be "DX" (15.8 X 23.6mm) or full frame(24 x 36mm). Don't keep using "G" lens to mean "DX" 'cause the "G" has nothing to do with their frame coverage. In fact the new Nikon FX digital lenses are "G" lenses (no aperture ring) and they are full frame.

[Steve Murray]

You are right, sorry. I corrected the original post. Thank you.

[Eddie]

Enzo, how do you know wether or not the DX lenses covers the red sensor? There are many advantages in using a lens designed for an adeqate chipsize. Zoom range can be a priority to many shooters. I think that for many aplictions the nikon 18-200mm VR could be a great cheap solution for lightweight efp shooting ... also the 17-55mm f/2.8 is a great range and in my oppinion much preferable to a more expensive 14-24mm full frame lens.
So even though you are only writing to "newbies" I suggest you state known facts instead of out guessing future test results.

[Steve Murray]

Eddie,

If you had actually read the entire post... and went and looked at Brook Willard's FAQ link you would have seen his most excellent chart on how the various formats relate to the RED 4.5K sensor.

You can buy and use any lens you want - no one will care. This post was just a guide and like everything in life and each person should decide for themselves. And they should TEST their lenses.

This is 4K, not DV and not HD. The lenses being used will need to be the best quality one can afford to get professional results. In my opinion using lenses that just barely will cover the format may not be such a good idea in the long run. If a person is planning their lens purchase I think they would want to know to proceed with caution when it comes to these lenses. That is the point about these lenses.

If a person plans to only shoot 2K then these DX and EF-S lenses should be fine. If they plan to shoot 4K or at some point 4.5K RAW then, in my opinion, they may be disappointed with some of these lenses (mostly the super-wide zooms) especially if they ever see their footage on a 40 foot wide screen.

[Nonsense]

Seung I appreciated your question. I am in the same boat as you but am more geared towards DPing than directing. Been working as lighting technician and shooting webisodes for magazines for the last year. All HVX stuff. And am both fearfull and hopefull for the increases in my knowledge and profession I want to gain by purchasing RED. Paul thanks for your encouraging words too.

[Daniel García]

Nobody's going to be shooting the 4,5K uncompressed optical link to the fridge-sized RAID. Be realistic. It's not worth it. People have the fear of compression pushed into them but you have to understand... REDcode is good enough.
And these guys have to make build 16, keep up with the current demand, ramp up production, fix the post tools, develop two new cameras, the new lenses and the new red ray magic codec that'll fit 2h 4K in a DVD-R-DL (I won't believe that until I see it). It's not worth the development time and they have other priorities now.:construction:
I'm the biggest RED supporter but you have to be realistic.
If you want a fridge sized camera get a Dalsa :D
j/k

[REDefine]

Now, lot of people are using Nikon lenses. It will be interesting to know which Nikons are performing better. Is AI still the winner or AF is doing better with Nikon mount.
Cheers