Leica Summilux-C Primes

[Tonaci Tran]

http://www.fdtimes.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/LeapingLeica640m.jpg

FDTIMES:
The lenses that could not be named are Leicas, and they will be on display at Band Pro’s NAB booth (C 10308). The initial set of Summilux-C Primes in PL mount will be: 16, 18, 21, 25, 35, 40, 50, 65, 75, 100 mm. They are all T1.4, and the focus scales of all lenses are identical and equally spaced.

http://www.fdtimes.com/news/?p=1716

[Shane Betts]

Woah! What is it about that red spot that makes them look so much nicer? :eek6:The worst kept secret? Hope they add in something really wide soon.

[George A.]

Coverage?

[Vico Martin]

wow, looks amazing!, the mistery primes in person, someone knows about the price?

[MichaelHalsell]

Oh my!:ohmy:

[Milan Nikolic]

Give us prices, someone!

[Laco Zamba]

Sanjiiiin, wake up :-)

[MichaelHalsell]

Sanjiiiin, wake up :-)


That's right! Where is Sanjin? We need some Leica color commentary.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Unleash the SJ!

http://filmonic.com/wp-content/gallery/clash-of-the-titans/liam-neeson-zeus.jpg

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Very disappointed that I didn't see any Sanjin's posts in this thread yet.

I had to double check that he wasn't the original poster!

:biggrin5:

[Sanjin Jukic]

I'm back now guys.

Absolutely fantastic!!!

Amazing!

And of course they are all RED dot named Leica!!!!!!!!!!!

Also Summilux (http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/lens-names.htm) by Leica terminology means speed @ f/1.4 or for cine lenses T1.4.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Coverage?

Last we heard was S35. Hopefully, and likely, also Epic S35.

[Tonaci Tran]

Very disappointed that I didn't see any Sanjin's posts in this thread yet.

I had to double check that he wasn't the original poster!

:biggrin5:

lol- yes I beat Sanjin this time. haha.

A visitor to my cinemalenses.com website tipped me off that bandpro had a showing yesterday. Will post more info as I get it.

[Andrew Rieger]

Not a huge surprise, we knew they were Leica's for months, or at least that the glass was from Leica. You could tell just by looking at the coating with the reddish tint on the glass. They will be amazing, and expensive. Any idea on price? Like MP's and Cooke, I have a feeling these will be rental only for most of us. Jim should like this, since he is a Leica fan.

[Evin Grant]

Anyone have $150K I can borrow? Pretty please?

[MichaelHalsell]

Anyone have $150K I can borrow? Pretty please?


Is $150K the mystery price tag?

[randywedick]

You're not too far off. We will be taking pre-paid reservations for sets of 8 lenses at the show (10% deposit). There is a limited quantity that we will be able to deliver by the end of the year, and as of his morning, several sets are already spoken for.

Randy Wedick
Technical Consultant
Band Pro Film Digital

[Greg M]

you'll need about $30k more Evin. They look pretty sweet though, and very compact:
http://www.bandpro.com/309/PDF/BPLeicaBrchr-1.pdf

[albert rudnicki]

around 20.000 per lens; hell, you get a full set of Red for one lens;)

[Martin Stevens]

My hope is that Jim Jannard and the Red team decide to create
a lens set of equal quality/weight/speed etc. and then sell them
at a very low price, so as to once and for all bring and end to this
expensive lens practice.
:banghead::sifone::banghead::sifone:

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

One thing makes me wonder:

If RED were to make a prime set of $100K price tag.

How would it be?

[MichaelHalsell]

My hope is that Jim Jannard and the Red team decide to create
a lens set of equal quality/weight/speed etc. and then sell them
at a very low price, so as to once and for all bring and end to this
expensive lens practice.
:banghead::sifone::banghead::sifone:


Let's not ruin the moment for Leica. Great product, a bit expensive for the general population but useful for the select few no doubt. Let's give them some shine and also give RED a bit more time and space to circle back around on existing products. They have working pretty hard. 'I hear the clanging of hammers in the workshop.':cheers2:

[Greg M]

My hope is that Jim Jannard and the Red team decide to create
a lens set of equal quality/weight/speed etc. and then sell them
at a very low price, so as to once and for all bring and end to this
expensive lens practice.
:banghead::sifone::banghead::sifone:

LOL...you get what you pay for, the Leica Summilux is one of the finest modern lenses ever produced. It looks as good at 1.4 as it does at 5.6, and is a quite remarkable lens.

As a point of reference a Summilux 24mm M lens is $6500 and you cant find them in stock as they are hand assembled in small quantities.

[C.H.Haskell]

I look forward to putting these into motion.

[Raphael Varandas]

wow...nice!!
sanjin you late hahaha
but it was a pretty pretty good news

best nab ever, hã??
i mean... in digital cinematography??
:party:

[Tico Llaurador]

Leica Glass = No 2nd camera needed for 3D effect.

Long live well-shot 2D!

:smash:

[Sanjin Jukic]

wow...nice!!
sanjin you late hahaha
but it was a pretty pretty good news

best nab ever, hã??
i mean... in digital cinematography??
:party:


Together with ARRI/Carl Zeiss Master Primes and Cooke S5/i probably

optically and mechanically the best super fast prime set that money can buy.

They are pretty lightweight that is a certain advantage over sets of MPs and Cookes.

Also they could be a cine lens set of masterpieces.

To give you an idea how it looks one of the Leica still lens masterpieces on RED1-M:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Belvedere_April_07_2010_05.jpg
Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm ASPH f/2.0 on RED ONE-M (FF35mm rangefinder lens).

Download 1920x800 short H264 test example shot two days ago 21MB >>> (http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Belvedere_April_07_2010_05_H264.mov)

To see more how all types of lens lateral aberrations are pretty well under control you should have a look at 4.5K size image in this somehow a high contrast situation

Download 4.5K widescreen shot @ f/8.0, ND 0.9, Circ-Pola, Hot Mirror Formatt filters, ISO 320, 1/50 shutter, 4480x1920 JPG >>> (http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Belvedere_April_07_2010_05_4-5K.jpg)

[Sanjin Jukic]

Now it's official

Leica Summilux-C Primes.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Leica_Summilux_C_40mm.jpg
Leica Summilux-C 40mm.

"The product of more than three years of development, these new T1.4 close focus primes employ a unique multi-aspheric design
and high-precision cine lens mechanics to provide unmatched flat field illumination across the entire 35mm frame and suppression
of color fringing in the farthest corners of the frame with no discernable breathing.
These lenses are superior to any lenses Band Pro’s team of experts has yet seen."

Read more>>> (http://www.bandpro.com/309/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=40&category_id=33&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27&vmcchk=1&Itemid=27)

[Evin Grant]

I will own a set of these some day, oh yes, I will (rubbing hands together).

[hans de vries]

??????? Where the hell do these prices come from?! I just bought a 1.4 35 mm leica lens (second hand) for 850 euros on ebay! What do they do to these things to ask so much?
Mr. Jannard, do something about it! You've done it before!

[Sanjin Jukic]

??????? Where the hell do these prices come from?! I just bought a 1.4 35 mm leica lens (second hand) for 850 euros on ebay! What do they do to these things to ask so much?
Mr. Jannard, do something about it! You've done it before!

You pay for the highest optical and mechanical lens design.

Also all the lenses are handmade assembled in Germany.

So that's costs always something more.

[hans de vries]

Sanjin, this is not 'something more'. And are you saying they are much better than the standard photo lenses?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, this is not 'something more'. And are you saying they are much better than the standard photo lenses?

Yes.

[hans de vries]

okay

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Yes.

How?

Are there PDFs and sheets of it yet?

[G Lap]

Sanjin, this is not 'something more'. And are you saying they are much better than the standard photo lenses?


Yes.


How? Are there PDFs and sheets of it yet?

I think the question Sanjin was answering was about the quality and performance of Leica lenses in general, compared to other existing lenses in the stills world. I tend to agree with him on this.

As for cine lenses, we'll have to wait and see. For the moment, based on experience in the stills world, I'm assuming that they'll at least be up there with Cooke and Zeiss. I agree too that their lighter weight and more compact size should give them a useful differentiator compared to the opposition.

[hans de vries]

ah, if that's the case it's a misunderstanding; I was talking about a 35 mm 1.4 leica lens that I bought second hand for 850 euros, and I wondered why you would have to pay so much more for a lens that I assumed was just re-barreled (if that's the correct term). So my question remains: is a 35 mm leica lens from this new series significantly better than the standard leica lens I bought?

[Andrew Rieger]

As a Leica fan and owner, I love these lenses but the price tag is out of control. You get what you pay for but for the price of a Bentley, these lenses need to cure cancer or something. Only the most experienced will be able to tell the difference between these and RPP's when comparing footage. Another set of fast cine lenses that no one can afford, great!

[Matthew Duclos]

I have very high hopes for these lenses. While I have not bench tested them with the proper equipment YET...
I have heard from several sources that they are phenomenal.
As soon as Band Pro feels like sending a set this way, I'll post a nice formal review.
With Michael over at Arri now, I hope Randy is reading this ;)

[Roberto Lequeux]

I would love to see your review Matthew! Of course I mostly want to see 5k samples and feel their mechanics, but it would be so interesting to read your review.

Would you post samples if you got a set to review?

SJ, you posted a sample from an f/2.0 though, so it wouldn't be very close to the design.
And I am sure you have a higher contrast sample somewhere. :)
200% and 400% below (from .jpg back to .jpg, and compressed by the server)

[Roberto Lequeux]

Since SJ is being so disappointing. :)

http://www.zumovalusa.com/DELETE/Leica.jpg

[Tom.Wong]

this won't cover FF correct?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

this won't cover FF correct?

Correct. They are designed to cover full aperture S35, which is roughly a 31.5mm image circle. Should cover 5K. Some of the longer focal lengths will probably come close to covering FF, but no guarantees of their performance out that far.

So, hypothetically, if someone had the money burning a hole in their pocket to buy these, how long would it take to get a set?

[Tom.Wong]

Correct. They are designed to cover full aperture S35, which is roughly a 31.5mm image circle. Should cover 5K. Some of the longer focal lengths will probably come close to covering FF, but no guarantees of their performance out that far.

So, hypothetically, if someone had the money burning a hole in their pocket to buy these, how long would it take to get a set?


you should call them and pretend your a rental house :)


a shame they aren't future proofing these to be FF, just like how many agree 4k and beyond is future proofing, so is Vista vission FF glass IMHO. would have been amazing to see a set like this, this fast, at all these ranges at FF. 5k will have to do for now... hehehe

[Roberto Lequeux]

5k sounds better to me than VistaVision. Maybe I am not as hardcore about IQ as the rest of you... yet. Though I do like the idea of longer focal length optical qualities. 5k brings us a little longer but still within the realm of S35 focus pulling. That we don't need to worry about wasted footage, we have better monitors, we have better/affordable focusing systems, higher sensitivity (smaller apertures for deeper DoF possible), etc... makes it sound like a little bigger is the right step... plus the ability to overshoot bayer resolution for 4k finish.

But I would have to buy a FF35 camera to get a feel for the DoF.

Sounds like you'd have a perfect FOV marriage between these or any other S35 lenses and Epic S35. Even if all the wides 16mm, 18mm, and 21mm didn't cover 5k -which seems very unlikely- you do have S35 16mm coverage. Doesn't that mean you will have a close to equal FOV at 5k with whichever lens was first to cover 5k?

[Tom.Wong]

i believe band pro at last year nab said that these "mystery primes" def cover 5k, the whole set. not 100% on tha tone though. so hopefully that won't be much of a concern. a lot of the top grade S35 cinema lenses out there cover 5k throughout don't they? do MP's, UP's, S4's, and so on cover 5k? or will they vignette on the wider ranges?

would love to see if that 12 mm MP that just came out covers close or up to 5k.

[G Lap]

ah, if that's the case it's a misunderstanding; I was talking about a 35 mm 1.4 leica lens that I bought second hand for 850 euros, and I wondered why you would have to pay so much more for a lens that I assumed was just re-barreled (if that's the correct term). So my question remains: is a 35 mm leica lens from this new series significantly better than the standard leica lens I bought?

Whilst perhaps taking the still lens optical design as a stepping off point, the new Leica Cine lenses won't be just re-barreled versions of the still lenses. There are differences between cine and still lenses, not the least being size. The Leica Cine's, whilst being compact in comparison to other fast cine lenses, are larger than many pro DSLR and Leica R lenses and much larger than leica M lenses for example.

The price you paid for yours suggests it's an older pre-ASPH design, possibly Canadian, since new (German) Leica M 35mm Summilux ASPH lenses list above €3000/$4000, and other Leica M lenses much more. That's still much cheaper than the Leica Cine's of course, but that Red Dot never comes cheap.
Coming from the still world I used to consider $7-10K for a lens as getting expensive but, after talking to the Cooke sales director at a UK seminar the other day, I realise that can pale into relative insignificance in the motion world.

[G Lap]

......Another set of fast cine lenses that no one can afford, great!

"No one" is a broad generalisation Andrew, there are many wealthy individuals and companies out there. Zeiss and Cooke still seem to be in business.......

[hans de vries]

Whilst perhaps taking the still lens optical design as a stepping off point, the new Leica Cine lenses won't be just re-barreled versions of the still lenses. There are differences between cine and still lenses, not the least being size. The Leica Cine's, whilst being compact in comparison to other fast cine lenses, are larger than many pro DSLR and Leica R lenses and much larger than leica M lenses for example.

The price you paid for yours suggests it's an older pre-ASPH design, possibly Canadian, since new (German) Leica M 35mm Summilux ASPH lenses list above €3000/$4000, and other Leica M lenses much more. That's still much cheaper than the Leica Cine's of course, but that Red Dot never comes cheap.
Coming from the still world I used to consider $7-10K for a lens as getting expensive but, after talking to the Cooke sales director at a UK seminar the other day, I realise that can pale into relative insignificance in the motion world.

thanks for the answer! Mine is a German lens, not very old, I was just very lucky with the price; but 7-10.000 getting expensive? I shot with a hasselblad, but never spend anywhere near that kind of money!

[Andrae Palmer]

I wonder why they went to all the trouble of earlier on denying and denying that these were leicas?

[G Lap]

thanks for the answer! Mine is a German lens, not very old, I was just very lucky with the price; but 7-10.000 getting expensive? I shot with a hasselblad, but never spend anywhere near that kind of money!

You got a good deal by the sound of it. I was really comparing new list prices but yes, buying good quality used can certainly ease the pain on the wallet.....

[David Wyatt]

Now it's official

Leica Summilux-C Primes.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Leica_Summilux_C_40mm.jpg
Leica Summilux-C 40mm.


Meh...for $120,000 I'd expect a better font than that :thumbsup:

[Roberto Lequeux]

I <3 Leica font. I remember seeing it in my childhood elswhere. Not sure where.


around 20.000 per lens; hell, you get a full set of Red for one lens;)

You mean to say that you can add the cost of an other Leica and get both sets! Then I can rent both from the same guy. :)

[MichaelHalsell]

I wonder why they went to all the trouble of earlier on denying and denying that these were leicas?


You are right. The covert drama was a tad heavy.

[MichaelHalsell]

Studying the product photo, I'm not sure how I feel about the choice of Courier typeface on something so expensive and optically elegant. I'm trying to imagine a Ferrari with courier typeface stylings.:crazy:

[Sanjin Jukic]

Studying the product photo, I'm not sure how I feel about the choice of Courier typeface on something so expensive and optically elegant. I'm trying to imagine a Ferrari with courier typeface stylings.:crazy:

That's just totally irrelevant to any of new Leica Summilux-C prime lens at optical or mechanical quality.

[Steve Das]

...I'm not sure how I feel about the choice of Courier typeface on something so expensive and optically elegant...

Agreed..not a font fiend at all but this is a rather odd choice.
...especially since the red dot logo is so classic looking.

[peter roehsler]

I wonder what their business model is on these?
Owner/operators will most probably not buy them because of the price tag.
Rental houses?

Besides all that, what would be the benefit if they were covering FF?
FF IMHO will only make sense with anamorphic lenses (unless you really want to shoot academy 4:3), or am I overlooking something?

[Mitch Gross]

Comic sans anyone?

[Filip Orlandic]

Comic sans anyone?

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/bancomicsans ;)

[Mark L. Pederson]

I <3 Leica font. I remember seeing it in my childhood elswhere. Not sure where.



You mean to say that you can add the cost of an other Leica and get both sets! Then I can rent both from the same guy. :)

The font is called "LG 1050" and it was specially created for Leica Camera.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I wonder what their business model is on these?
Owner/operators will most probably not buy them because of the price tag.
Rental houses?

Besides all that, what would be the benefit if they were covering FF?
FF IMHO will only make sense with anamorphic lenses (unless you really want to shoot academy 4:3), or am I overlooking something?

Peter,

I'll just quote because of Otto our "fellow Austrian in LA":

"The first 25 sets of lenses will be delivered to Otto Nemenz International.
Their experienced team provided invaluable user input from the beginning of the design process."

LINK>>> (http://www.bandpro.com/309/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98%3Amysterylenses&catid=1%3Alatest-news&Itemid=37)

Other rentals will immediately follow...

FF35 lenses mostly can't reach speed @ T1.4 except with 50mm, 55mm and 85mm.

At all other focal lengths there are physical limitations if you want to keep lateral lens aberrations and distortions under certain control.

At the end give you some more nice fun with Leica lenses from tonight:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Electric_guitar_01.jpg
Shot on RED1-M with Leica Apo-Summicron-M ASPH 75mm f/2.0 @ 5.6, ISO 320, shutter 1/50.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Electric_guitar_02.jpg
Shot on RED1-M with Leica Apo-Summicron-M ASPH 75mm f/2.0 @ 5.6, ISO 320, shutter 1/50.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Thanks for the name Mark. I figured it would be, which makes me wonder if it was just very similar (a rip-off) or I don't remember encountering a Leica at an early age. I doubt I'd be able to find one similar enough though.

Just look at that 4... how could you not love it? I think it must in fact make the lenses faster, much like Rosso Corsa makes Ferraris faster. :)

[Greg M]

You guys are too funny...that's a classic Leica font...personally I think the lens is beautiful.

[MichaelHalsell]

The font is called "LG 1050" and it was specially created for Leica Camera.


Thank you Mark.

[peter roehsler]

Interesting bit about Otto Nemenz - but as he was in the know, he has had enough time to adjust his rental inventory to this number of new lens sets arriving.

[Sanjin Jukic]

You guys are too funny...that's a classic Leica font...personally I think the lens is beautiful.

Greg, you are right


http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Leica_font.jpg

[Mark L. Pederson]

Just look at that 4... how could you not love it?

Yes - the 4 totally rules.

[Sanjin Jukic]

The font is called "LG 1050" and it was specially created for Leica Camera.

Mark thanks for the info.

[MichaelHalsell]

I will close the font discussion, so that thread can continue discussing the fine optical qualities of the Leica Summilux-C Primes by simply suggesting that in this specific instance, the focal length size, typeface, and position seem to compete in an unflattering way with the Leica logo.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Also I very happy because new R1 MX sensor has better high ISO performance than FF35mm Kodak made CCD sensor in new Leica M9.

Just to beat sometimes all those M9 photographers with better ISO on R1MX using best Leica M glass.

Happy again, and again, and again,...!!! :emote_happyhappy: :emote_happyhappy: :emote_happyhappy:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6157&d=1270851796

[Roberto Lequeux]

That's the spirit SJ, grab someone else's photo and blow it up! Right on the page. :)


I will close the font discussion, so that thread can continue discussing the fine optical qualities of the Leica Summilux-C Primes by simply suggesting that in this specific instance, the focal length size, typeface, and position seem to compete in an unflattering way with the Leica logo.

I'd say the focal length does point to the logo, making it a bit snobby perhaps. Like (un cool) "Look, I am shooting on Leica... oh, yea... u like that? You know you do... that's right, how bout them apples?" LOL, or maybe that's just my immature and sleep deprived self speaking. xP

But agree, that we obviously need to get some frikken samples up in here, and only M-X will do! :sifone:

[randywedick]

Oooh, been setting up all day. I missed the thrilling font discussion.

Mitch's selection struck a real chord with the design team and they have decided to fab new lens housings with Comic Sans written on them due to today's feedback. Hope to have them before the start of the show. :)

Matt, you are on the short list for checking these puppies out.

Attached are some behind the scenes iphone pix from booth setup.

Randy Wedick
Technical Consultant
Band Pro Film & Digital

[Greg M]

nice, look even better mounted.

For Sale: One set of mint condition Ultra Primes.

[Roberto Lequeux]

They look so small mounted.

[Andrew Rieger]

Funny, $20,000 lens on $1700 camera. I've seen seen a rogue on a 7D, hard to find the actual camera.

[Sanjin Jukic]

They (RED and Band Pro) should show us at NAB how it looks Epic with Leica SC Prime on.

Epic body lightweight 5 lbs (2.3 kg) + Leica SC PL Prime Lightweight 3.5-4.0 lbs (1.6-1.8kg) = 8.5 - 9 lbs (3.9 - 4.1 kg).

That's something else in terms of lightweight camera with a fast prime lens that Alexa, Aaton Penelope ∆, etc... or maybe upcoming SI 4K can't compete with it.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I may not be a DP, but do notice there is great logic behind what David Mullen says about lens contrast and diffusion filters. Also, I love the man's work, so I'll assume I like all of what he likes.

I know from him mentioning it several times that he mostly works with either Zeiss or Panavision glass. I asked -with much less cinematographical wisdom in my questioning than the one he infuses his answers with- how he felt about the up-coming Leica primes:


With all the monkeying around that happens to the image in post, especially to the contrast, I don't get too hung up on the subtle differences between the top lenses on the market -- they exist of course, and some people prefer one over the other, but I think some of those differences can be timed out in post. Besides, most people have to mix some zoom lens stuff in there anyway.

However, I do like the idea that now there are T/1.4 options. I hope Panavision follows the trend and makes some T/1.4 Primos.

Though not necessarily "sexy" what I like about Primos / Leitz is their neutrality, they seem less warm than Cookes and less cold than Zeiss. Same goes for contrast, the Primos are somewhere in between the lower contrast of Cookes and the higher contrast of Zeiss.

You might want to see what my questioning read like on his thread in the cinematography section, but you get the picture. I think here I was mainly asking about focus fall off, the transition between in-focus and OOF areas:


Well, softer contrast lenses naturally tend to have less "snap" and therefore focus seems to roll through more smoothly. But what seems smoother and more pleasant to one person seems soft to another person.

Also, I like using mild diffusion filters and therefore prefer sticking them on higher contrast lenses, mainly because I want the halation more than I just want more softness.

So, thinking that with a high contrast lens, such as Zeiss or RPPs, you can use very light diffusion filters and get a bit of halation without too much softness, which I suppose I see as "a bit dreamy, other-worldly, but with lots of detail".

In motion, of course, filters are commonplace. All of which makes me wonder if the C-Primes will look exactly like top shelf still Leicas, exactly like Panavision Primos, or if they might be slightly more contrasty than both. MPs being widely considered top dog, or at least more favored in the motion world, would perhaps inspire a small lean in their design towards more contrast.

I suppose we might be collectively assuming Primo look, only quite a deal faster.

So, while this post doesn't add much, other than cross-thread-quoting David I'd love to get some frikken' samples already!!! :)

[D Fuller]

Studying the product photo, I'm not sure how I feel about the choice of Courier typeface on something so expensive and optically elegant. I'm trying to imagine a Ferrari with courier typeface stylings.

I don't know what you're looking at, but look again. The type on the lens is not Courier. It's also not Courier New. It doesn't look anything like Courier. (For the record, i have 3939 fonts on my MBP, and it is not one of them. I expect that it is a custom Leica font.)

EDIT: I wrote this before seeing Marks post above. Sorry for chiming in on the silly font discussion.

[16x9 Inc]

They look so small mounted.

That's what I said while mounting it on the camera. They're also super light weight.

Pix of our RED set-up (Camera Courtesy of our friend Chad Wilson from Progressive Productions):
http://reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6188&stc=1&d=1271004191

[Derek Wan, HKSC]

At the end give you some more nice fun with Leica lenses from tonight:

Shot on RED1-M with Leica Apo-Summicron-M ASPH 75mm f/2.0 @ 5.6, ISO 320, shutter 1/50.

Hi Sanjin,

How do you mount Leica M lenses on a RED One? Which adapter (system) do your use? Is every M lens compatible with RED camera?

Thanks,

[Roberto Lequeux]

The side record button and the leica dot look so purty together. :001_wub:

They look like they are getting along already. NOW SAMPLES!!! please... :)


Hi Sanjin,

How do you mount Leica M lenses on a RED One? Which adapter (system) do your use? Is every M lens compatible with RED camera?

Thanks,

The kind that made his Red One trade-in value kaput. :hand:

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi Sanjin,

How do you mount Leica M lenses on a RED One? Which adapter (system) do your use? Is every M lens compatible with RED camera?

Thanks,

A "dangerous" mount that's called IMS and with it on R1 officially presented here with many pictures I (finally) lost option to get EPIC-X with that R1 number I have.

But anyway I could get later just EPIC at the full price but not discount like other R1 users that didn't void R1 warranty.

So don't get IMS on RED1 if you would like to get sooner or later in EPIC-X upgrade program.

Every Leica M lens is compatible with that Leica M mount that is technically a sort of PL (positive lock) mount and has FFD exactly 28.8mm to the sensor/film plane.

Also you have to count that with R1 sensor you get about 1.69 crop factor related to FF35mm.

Some of wide angle rangefinder lenses have occasional vignetting especially faster one (Summilux-M) at wide open that could be an issue if you use them with shooting moving images.

So you must test and choose a proper M lenses that have speed that can cover your shooting needs.

For example if you occasionally shooting at F/2.8 for available light (can be doable with newer sensors with ISO 800) than the latest Elmarit range (f/2.8) aspherical are excellent choice

because even wide open @ 2.8 those lenses are pretty sharp at center/corners (especially on smaller sensors like a R1's) with a great contrast and beautiful neutral color (realistic) rendering.

Now I'm collecting Summicron range (f/2.0) any of the latest lenses of Leica M aspherical's.

Actually I'm going zig-zag route between the best and latest Leica M and discontinued older Leica R glass.

Hope that helps.

[Sanjin Jukic]

The side record button and the leica dot look so purty together. :001_wub:

They look like they are getting along already. NOW SAMPLES!!! please... :)



The kind that made his Red One trade-in value kaput. :hand:

But has got an inspiration to make my R1 one of the most attractive digital acquisition systems available today and tomorrow.

Stay tuned.

[Derek Wan, HKSC]

A "dangerous" mount that's called IMS and with it on R1 officially presented here with many pictures I (finally) lost option to get EPIC-X with that R1 number I have.

But anyway I could get later just EPIC at the full price but not discount like other R1 users that didn't void R1 warranty.

So don't get IMS on RED1 if you would like to get sooner or later in EPIC-X upgrade program.

Every Leica M lens is compatible with that Leica M mount that is technically a sort of PL (positive lock) mount and has FFD exactly 28.8mm to the sensor/film plane.

Also you have to count that with R1 sensor you get about 1.69 crop factor related to FF35mm.

Some of wide angle rangefinder lenses have occasional vignetting especially faster one (Summilux-M) at wide open that could be an issue if you use them with shooting moving images.

So you must test and choose a proper M lenses that have speed that can cover your shooting needs.

For example if you occasionally shooting at F/2.8 for available light (can be doable with newer sensors with ISO 800) than the latest Elmarit range (f/2.8) aspherical are excellent choice

because even wide open @ 2.8 those lenses are pretty sharp and with a great contrast.

Now I'm collecting Summicron range (f/2.0) any of the latest lenses of Leica M aspherical's.

Actually I'm going zig-zag route between the best and latest Leica M and discontinued older Leica R glass.

Hope that helps.

Thank you very much for the elaborate answer. I wish Allstar could do something similar so that we can mix (almost) all brands in one system.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thank you very much for the elaborate answer. I wish Allstar could do something similar so that we can mix (almost) all brands in one system.

Allstar can't make Leica M mout because it requires to take whole RED1 PL mount and that step can void R1 warranty just to get at Leica M FFD (Flange Focal Distance of 28.80mm).

Hope this helps.

[Cliff Hokanson]

Allstar can't make Leica M mout because it requires to take whole RED1 PL mount and that step can void R1 warranty just to get at Leica M FFD (Flange Focal Distance of 28.80mm).

Hope this helps.

Can you use the leica Summilux with the Red

[Andrew Rieger]

Can you use the leica Summilux with the Red

of course, you can use any pl mount lens with red.

[John Brawley]

Funny, $20,000 lens on $1700 camera.

That's exactly the way it should be.

The camera is a light tight box for holding the film or sensor. The lens is the soul of the image.

You guys make me laugh with your demands that Red somehow magically invent a way to make lenses of their equal with T1.4 just...because !!

Unlike DSP chips, sensors and electronics which are more easily mass produced and adapted from other fields, these aren't off the shelf commodity items. They are literally hand made.

You know before RED came along, Zeiss and Leica et al were making money from cine lenses. They still will. RED is a whole new market of filmmakers, and isn't cannibalising a lot of that higher end market. These would be rental only propositions mostly anyway.

jb

[Brian D. Goff]

Some of wide angle rangefinder lenses have occasional vignetting especially faster one (Summilux-M) at wide open that could be an issue if you use them with shooting moving images.
.

I don't understand. The RED sensor is s35mm, so how can the Summilux-M (use for FF35) vignett at all on a RED?

[Sanjin Jukic]

I don't understand. The RED sensor is s35mm, so how can the Summilux-M (use for FF35) vignett at all on a RED?

Steve Huff-Review 1 (tested on M8 crop factor sized camera):

"How about vignetting? I did see some vignetting on the 21 when shot at 1.4,

but only while shooting for my sharpness tests.

The wall behind the clock clearly shows the effect. Here is an example..."

http://www.stevehuffphotos.com/Steve_Huff_Photos/Blog/Entries/2009/8/26_THE_LEICA_21_SUMMILUX_1.4_LENS_REVIEW_files/fullviewtest.jpg
Leica 21mm SUMMILUX AT 1.4 - SLIGHT VIGNETTING IS EVIDENT HERE.

LINK>>> (http://www.stevehuffphotos.com/Steve_Huff_Photos/Blog/Entries/2009/8/26_THE_LEICA_21_SUMMILUX_1.4_LENS_REVIEW.html)



Ken Rockwell-Review 2 (tested on M9 FF35 camera):

"Falloff (darker corners)

The LEICA 24mm f/1.4 SUMMILUX-M ASPH has has lots of falloff at f/1.4, even with the lens profile selected.

It's still strong at f/2, and gone by f/2.8.

I've greatly emphasized it below by shooting a gray field and presenting it against another gray field."

http://kenrockwell.com/leica/images/24mm-f14/falloff/L1008639-14.jpg
LEICA SUMMILUX-M 21mm f/1.4 falloff on full-frame M9 at infinity, AUTO lens profile@ f/1.4.

LINK>>> (http://kenrockwell.com/leica/24mm-f14.htm)

Even Summicron 35mm on my test with RED1 using ND 0.9 +Circ-Pola+ HotMirror Formatt filters showed falloff on the right size:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/summicron35mm_f2asph_02.jpg
Shot on RED1 with Leica M Summicron 35mm f/2.0 ASPH @ 5.6, ND 0.9 +Circ-Pola filters+Hot Mirror filters, 320 ISO, 1/50 shutter, 5600K.

[Mitch Gross]

That is not vignetting. It is portholing falloff. This is a problem with shallow flange depth lenses (especially wide angle ones), a lack of telecentricity and electronic sensors that are effectively recessed buckets instead of surface excited. Film does not care about the angle that light strikes it as long as those photons hit the crystals in the emulsion. But if light travels at an acute enough angle then it does not make it deep enough into the bucket of a photosite to hit the electrical sensor.

Vignetting means that the light projection of the lens does not actually reach the area in question. This would mean darkening on electronic or chemical-based sensors.

[Sanjin Jukic]

About Leica Summilux 21mm and 24mm ASPH review from

TAO of LEICA Analysis and Insight by Erwin Puts (http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/lenses/page143/SX21SX24part2.html)

who is also the official Leica online lens catalog writer and he recently tested the latest Leica lenses on analog M6, M7 and digital Leica M8, M9 & S2 cameras.

"SX21: vignetting

At full aperture there is a visible darkening at the edges of the frame. Stopping down to 1:4 removes most of the vignetting.
It is really difficult to give useful information about vignetting as the occurrence of vignetting depends on several factors:
the exposure itself, the characteristics of the scene, the characteristics of film and so on. In most circumstances the vignetting of the SX21
at wider apertures is hardly obtrusive and only occasionally a real nuisance. The vignetting you see on negative will be partly compensated
in the darkroom. On the M8, the software (when the lens detection option is activated) does a good job in at least reducing the darkening to
quite acceptable proportions. The published curves which show vignetting values of 2 stops are correct, but this amount of darkening is only
visible at the extreme edges.
Vignetting is stronger when making close up pictures. Wide open you see a brighter area in the middle of the picture. At smaller apertures
the density is homogeneously distributed over the whole image area.

SX24: definition and vignetting

The publication of MTF graphs is a fine idea when one wishes to study and compare lenses in detail. It is easy however, to fall into the trap of
attaching too much value to small differences. The MTF graph of the SX24 wide open looks not as good as the SX21 and extrapolating from theory
to practice would imply a softer definition and lower contrast at the 1.4 aperture. Below you will find two extremely small sections from the whole negative,
absolutely not manipulated: these are negatives as scanned with identical settings. The slightly higher softness of the image is just visible.
The difference is not that big that the choice between either lens should be based on the wide open performance.
At full aperture very fine detail is clearly rendered over a very large part of the image frame. Edge contrast of the major subject outlines is medium to high.
The edges and corners of the frame hold fine detail over a wider area than the SX21, partly due to lower level of vignetting.

Below section of 21mm at 1.4
http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/lenses/page143/files/sx21_14section.jpg

Below section 24mm at 1.4
http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/lenses/page143/files/sx24_14section.jpg

NOTE: The small differences in contrast as described in the text are lost in the reproduction on this website because of the 72 p/inch resolution.

Stopping down to 1:4 brings the contrast and detail definition to levels equal to the SX21 at the same apertures and due to the slightly larger magnification
(at the same distance of course) slightly finer detail is just detectible. Stopping down to 1: 11 improves the edges and corners as usual. Compared to the SX21,
the overall image quality is now very homogeneous over the full image frame from 1: 4 to 1:11. Vignetting is slightly higher in the SX24 images, but disappears
after stopping down to 5.6. A slight corner darkening will however be visible even at 1:11. (same with the SX21).

The comparison with the Elmar-M 3.8/24mm asph. at apertures from 3.8 to 8 is informative: At 1:4 the Elmar shows identical definition in the image center,
but slightly crisper definition in the outer zones till the edges and far corners. Vignetting is also lower. At smaller apertures this fingerprint holds and the Elmar
has just a fraction better definition and edge contrast than the SX24.
In the not so distant past, one could hardly compare with decency two lenses with apertures so widely different from 1.4 to 3.8 and only detect small differences.
In is certainly a tribute to the Leica designers that the new 1.4 designs can be approached as fully normal lenses without making reservations.

[Sanjin Jukic]

http://www.bandpro.com/309/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/MYSTERY_LENSES_4bbe2bf3ef437.jpg
LEICA Summilux-C™ lenses.

Ex-Panavision lens engineer designed Leica Summilux-C lenses

Finally we have got a full story about making Leica Summilux-C lenses.

Interesting thing is that optical designer is the same guy who was involved in design of

Panavision Primo Series lenses, a man from Scotland Iain Neil who is an international,

multi-talented optical designer, currently living in Lugano, Switzerland.

After leaving Panavision, Iain moved back to Europe in 2005 and provided optical services

from his company ScotOptix.

Iain Neil: “The other very big technical aspect, without getting into MTF,
is that these lenses were designed to perform extremely well
for not only 4K, but also 6K, 8K, and well beyond. Two major
things (besides distortion and a few other things) contribute to
picture quality when you talk about camera resolution like 2K,
4K and so on. One is contrast and the other is resolution. Most
cinematographers do lens tests by looking at a test chart that has
black and white bars. You can put up a Baltar, you know, a really
old lens from the 1950s, and you can say it’s a 4K lens. But there’s
a difference...

...

...“There was one snag. It was a major thing. If you look at the
trend in cine lenses in the last 20 years—the barrels got larger.
Everyone has lenses that have barrels with a pretty large diameter.
The main reason was for focus scale marks and how well spaced
apart they were—particularly in the range from 6’ to infinity.
The scale there normally is a bit compressed, so it’s a double
whammy. You need a big diameter just to get more marks. So as
a result, the lenses became bigger and heavier. If you make them
a bit too big, you reach a point where it’s even hard to get the lens
out of the lens case and you might need three hands to do a lens
change. From the user point of view, if it gets too big it almost
becomes unmanageable. So if you have these big, heavy lenses in
a big, heavy lens case, and you’re outside on location, climbing a
mountain…there are a lot of practical issues for wanting to make
the lenses smaller...


...


...Iain came up with another invention. “I arrived at a unique
way of solving, for the customer and the focus puller, a design
arrangement using the optics and mechanics, where from 6’ to
infinity we’re using half the available rotation, and from close
focus to 6’ is the other half of the travel. And that was our new
design, which even though the diameter was 20% less, the spacing
of the focus marks from 6’ to infinity is 60% greater than on most
other lenses. To achieve this kind of thing you need very good
optics and mechanics, but that’s why we put this strong team
together. We had much more than a hundred years of combined
experience on this team. The scale is even more expanded than on
the largest diameter lenses...

...

...“We were aware of the 3D trend, but this didn’t come up at
the beginning. It came up later in the design phase when we
realized that 3D was no longer a fad, but that the studios needed
something else. Smaller and shorter lenses, with a factor of about
two times less weight, and much smaller, are especially suitable for
shooting with two cameras on a rig.”...

...

..The key players were:

1. Dr. Andreas Kaufmann, a German businessman, Managing Directorof ACM, CW Sonderoptic, Chairman of Leica;
2. Christian Skrein, an Austrian businessman, Viennese photographer, filmmaker, collector, longtime friend of
3. Otto Nemenz, an Austrian in LA, President of Otto Nemenz International; and
4. Iain Neil, a Scotsman in Lugano, optical designer..."

Read more at the current issue of

Film & Digital Times 32 & 33, Leica Cine Lens Saga, pages 32-37 >>> (http://www.fdtimes.com/)

[Mickey Conway]

Here's some wise advise. Be aware.
Buy proven products.
MC

[Mickey Conway]

Truth is... history seems to repeat. Band pro video bragged and boasted about the Zeiss digi primes now it's the mystery primes. Really? And I know the Sony f35 yeah that's the future. Lol

[randywedick]

Hmmm.

"Bragging and Boasting" about non-proven products. I think if you ask our customers you will find that by and large they get fair information about our products from myself and others who work with me. I also provide demo products to our customers so that they can test and evaluate the units themselves and come to their own decision before they buy (or don't buy), which is really the only way to do it in my opinion.

Bragging and boasting does not sell high end lenses.

I see your lol and raise you another lol.

Randy Wedick
Technical Consultant
Band Pro Film & Digital

[KETCH ROSSi]

LOL Randy, so true.. customer service offered when shopping for this type of Lenses, as I did for the Master Primes, is truly impressive, full on site reviewing and testing of each unit, and incredibly well trained Stuff to go with.

Even in all honesty I know find it difficult to spend this kind of money when I am now perfectly happy with the RPP's, some times, and more so now with the arrival of my two Epic-X cameras, I really fill like stepping back up to Master Primes and or now an other incredibly Gorgeous choice, The Leica PL lenses.

Since I will also be using the cameras for High end Photography work, and I have come to enjoy the very shallow DOF with 1.2's on the 1Ds, and super fast MF lenses with Hassy and just about to buy the new Leica S2 system, I'm seriously tempted in making a crazy buy with this new Leica lenses.

Besides the obvious ones, two other reasons as many other fellow DP's, but more for me because I'm also the owner operator and Photographer, I absolutely Love first, the fact that they are "ALL THE SAME SMALL SIZE LENGHT AND DIAMETER" this makes handling the lenses ever so easy, and also storage for them becomes muchh easier, as well as swapping lenses becomes fast and ergonomically pleasing to work with!secondly i Love the fact that they are so "LIGHT"!!

Some magic might happen with Pier59, and if it does, then.. well.. I could do something crazy ;~)