Time limit on Reservations?

[ChristopherKenworthy]

My money's all banked and ready to go, the moment my Red One is available. But I know a couple of other reservation holders who aren't cashed-up yet. Red have told us that we'll be contacted 30 days before potential shipment, to arrange final payment and release. My question is, how long does a reservation last? For those who need another six months to raise the cash, can they hold the reservation for that long? What about a year?

[donatello b]

from what i recall .. i think it was 30-60 days not 6 months ...
a year ? they might as well wait another 3 months then place a order ....

[ChristopherKenworthy]

from what i recall .. i think it was 30-60 days not 6 months ...
a year ? they might as well wait another 3 months then place a order ....

Agreed on that. But, as I say, I know some people who may hang in there for as long as possible (not least because a reservation comes with a $2500 bonus.)

Official confirmation of the 60 day limit would be appreciated, if that's the case.

[Jannard]

Agreed on that. But, as I say, I know some people who may hang in there for as long as possible (not least because a reservation comes with a $2500 bonus.)

Official confirmation of the 60 day limit would be appreciated, if that's the case.

We have posted 30 days and think that is more than fair. Shooting a pro camera is not cheap. If one is struggling to cover the camera, I'd reconsider the purchase.

My best,

Jim

[ChristopherKenworthy]

We have posted 30 days and think that is more than fair. Shooting a pro camera is not cheap. If one is struggling to cover the camera, I'd reconsider the purchase.

My best,

Jim

Thanks Jim. I might help another res holder out with the cost of his camera, which is why I asked. Apologies for not being able to dredge up the previous post - I did try.

[George A.]

HOWEVER, I think we are entitled to postpone our purchase until all (initially) promised features are enabled. Am I right Jim?
I have no project coming up right now so I would wait to get a camera fully enabled.

[Michael Hastings]

We have posted 30 days and think that is more than fair. Shooting a pro camera is not cheap. If one is struggling to cover the camera, I'd reconsider the purchase.

My best,

Jim

Jim: 30 days is fair and a reasonable policy. But remember things have changed a bit lately. The housing price slump and credit crunch is affecting a lot of people. My house appreciated 20% in the year before april 2006 when I placed my deposit. It has dropped 5% or so in the past year - and I am in a prime location, location, location.

I purchased 6 broadcast cameras between 1985 and 2000, all on leases where it was simply pick out the camera, setup the lease, order it and take delivery. The fact that no REDs had ever shipped until 2 weeks ago, combined with an indeterminate schedule, makes that scenario a little tougher. There is a 98% chance that I will overnight a cashier's check on Oct. 9 if RED#206 is ready by the 10th.

Reconsidering isn't really the issue - truthfully I've never been more excited about a camera purchase. As a pro shooter and a manufacturer of U/W camera housings I've handled almost every significant camera made since 1982 - shot the first DV footage ever for network broadcast in 1995, was on test team for 1st Sony 3 chip camera in 1986, etc., so I'm fairly jaded - but RED has gotten the juices flowing again. (Thank you for that.)

Anyway, just pointing out that the flex schedule from the RED end has also created some timing issues on the customer side that might warrant some flex treatment as well.

[Rocco Schult]

If one is struggling to cover the camera, I'd reconsider the purchase.

Fair enough.

[Jason Francois]

30 days is more than fair. The only issue I have is getting a camera that is severely limited in it's feature set. I don't need 100%, but when I put my deposit down there was no hint at the time that when the camera was released it wouldn't be full featured.

I'm one of those director/producer's that wants to learn their way around a camera, that so many people hate, so for me a camera that is too feature-limited out of the gate may hinder my learning experience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about the camera and am more than understanding of the changing nature of things. That's been part of the fun. I would just hate to have to get the pickup my camera running at 60% (theoretical number) and loose my place in line if that wasn't good enough.

All that said, my house is worth $250k less than when I put my deposit down, so I may fall in the "if one is struggling to cover the camera, I'd reconsider the purchase" category...so I'll just shut up for now and see how the chips fall. :)

[Steve Sherrick]

What happened to your house Jason????

[planet e]

yipes. having a camera purchase dependent upon or linked to the value of your house is a really poor business decision, unless you have a job already lined up that is equal to or, preferably, in excess of whatever loan you're considering.

for RED to base their payment policy on fluctuations in the housing market would be an equally poor decision.

there is a distinction between good debt and bad debt. good debt is used to make money by generating revenue beyond the intrinsic value of the purchased object or service. bad debt usually generates deeper debt or is used to pay for depreciating assets or services....a camera, no matter how revolutionary, will generally lose its intrinsic value. if you're trusting your home equity to purchase the camera, you had better be damn sure about your ability to generate revenue equal to or in excess of your your home equity loan. and you better put some hard numbers to this before you do it. hope don't pay bills.

[Jason Francois]

I didn't want this to be about my house. I'm just fine, it's just that the housing market is where I make my living. I design custom homes and that has been very slow. I now have to think about whether I want to put the money I have elsewhere.

My buying the camera is a bad business decision from the start, because I am buying it for more want than need.

I'm also not saying that the payment policy should change because I'm having financial tightening. :) I was also trying to make the point that I've been here since the beginning and don't really need a camera that is going to have to be upgraded every month. If possible, i would want to wait until it's as close to fully operational and would hope not to miss out because of it.

Thank you for your thorough analysis of the financial pitfalls...I guess I shouldn't have mentioned my personal info like money.

j.


yipes. having a camera purchase dependent upon or linked to the value of your house is a really poor business decision, unless you have a job already lined up that is equal to or, preferably, in excess of whatever loan you're considering.

for RED to base their payment policy on fluctuations in the housing market would be an equally poor decision.

there is a distinction between good debt and bad debt. good debt is used to make money by generating revenue beyond the intrinsic value of the purchased object or service. bad debt usually generates deeper debt or is used to pay for depreciating assets or services....a camera, no matter how revolutionary, will generally lose its intrinsic value. if you're trusting your home equity to purchase the camera, you had better be damn sure about your ability to generate revenue equal to or in excess of your your home equity loan. and you better put some hard numbers to this before you do it. hope don't pay bills.

[Steve Sherrick]

Jason, I assume you have personal projects that you would like to do with the camera, yes?

I think you are going to find that what is enabled on the camera right now will be certainly enough for you to get started and actually do some really nice work. I wouldn't let that stop you from buying the camera.

What I would consider is the financial end of it. Obviously, your financial situation is none of our business and should remain so. But know that many of us are taking a careful look at the financial aspects of this business decision. Personally, I can't get this camera just to play around with it. I have to have a solid business plan in place or I'll be in for a big financial blow. I have too many other responsibilities for that to happen, so I'm making sure I have everything lined up so I have a chance to make this a profitable decision. Everyone's situation is different, so whatever you decide, it's going to be what works best for you.

Getting back to the original comments about flexibility, I really do think Jim is being extremely fair in their payment options. The fact that he is offering to refund above and beyond the original deposit says a lot about him and the way he runs business. 30 days is a lot of time to give us, considering the line is huge behind us.

Steve

[Jason Francois]

True Steve.

Again, I think the 30 days is very fair if there is enough buttons to push at time of delivery. :) I don't think that's unreasonable on my part or anybody elses.

As for people's feelings about the camera and how to finance it, etc. I would agree with what most people are saying.

Originally, I was going to buy and could afford to buy the camera to play. Now, I can afford to buy the camera, but less to play with. I have a big personal project coming up, so I could use it for that for sure, but once that project is done, I'll be in post production for a year, so the RED would be sitting around and I'm not thinking I would be dealing with renting....and I honestly wont have much time to "play".

So, I continue to re-evalute my situation. :)

Sorry to highjack this thread.

J.


Jason, I assume you have personal projects that you would like to do with the camera, yes?

I think you are going to find that what is enabled on the camera right now will be certainly enough for you to get started and actually do some really nice work. I wouldn't let that stop you from buying the camera.

What I would consider is the financial end of it. Obviously, your financial situation is none of our business and should remain so. But know that many of us are taking a careful look at the financial aspects of this business decision. Personally, I can't get this camera just to play around with it. I have to have a solid business plan in place or I'll be in for a big financial blow. I have too many other responsibilities for that to happen, so I'm making sure I have everything lined up so I have a chance to make this a profitable decision. Everyone's situation is different, so whatever you decide, it's going to be what works best for you.

Getting back to the original comments about flexibility, I really do think Jim is being extremely fair in their payment options. The fact that he is offering to refund above and beyond the original deposit says a lot about him and the way he runs business. 30 days is a lot of time to give us, considering the line is huge behind us.

Steve

[donatello b]

RED has stated you have the choice to either wait for camera functions to be enabled or pick it up when your # is up = your choice = wait or pick up ...
guessing- the wait will be short ...

[vidalsosa]

We have posted 30 days and think that is more than fair. Shooting a pro camera is not cheap. If one is struggling to cover the camera, I'd reconsider the purchase.

My best,

Jim

Love your new signature, Jim. It saves you the trouble of repeating those words over and over again.

[planet e]

jason, i'm sorry if i sounded preachy and sanctimonious. that was wrong.

[Jason Francois]

jason, i'm sorry if i sounded preachy and sanctimonious. that was wrong.

No worries. I put myself out there. :) Besides, it wasn't bad advice, but not really all together relevant to my situation.

I don't buy gear unless it's out of a "mad-money" fund, so when I say I'm broke, it's a different kind of broke than "they're coming to take my car away" broke. :) Thankfully. However, they may come and take my house. Just kidding.

best,

J.

[Thor Wixom]

We have posted 30 days and think that is more than fair. Shooting a pro camera is not cheap. If one is struggling to cover the camera, I'd reconsider the purchase.

My best,

Jim

Jim,

Please clarify:

Is it 30 days from the published delivery date, even if the camera is not fully functioning?

...or 30 days from the day when you officially say that all the features are working?

I remember you saying in an early post that those who wish to wait for a fully functioning camera may choose to do so. Mine (#137) may or may not fall into that category, but if it does, it seems only fair that I would have 30 days from the date that all the promised features have been enabled to pay for it.

-Thor

[Jannard]

Jim,

Please clarify:

Is it 30 days from the published delivery date, even if the camera is not fully functioning?

...or 30 days from the day when you officially say that all the features are working?

I remember you saying in an early post that those who wish to wait for a fully functioning camera may choose to do so. Mine (#137) may or may not fall into that category, but if it does, it seems only fair that I would have 30 days from the date that all the promised features have been enabled to pay for it.

-Thor

You are correct. You can choose to wait until all features are enabled, which should be sometime early October. Then you have 30 days.

Jim

[Jason Francois]

You are correct. You can choose to wait until all features are enabled, which should be sometime early October. Then you have 30 days.

Jim

That's great news on both fronts.

[Michael Hastings]

jason, i'm sorry if i sounded preachy and sanctimonious. that was wrong.

It was a little, and I'm not sure your business or financial analysis is accurate either.

RE financing: Using equity to get financing has tax advantages and usually results in a substantially lower rate than regular commercial lending/leasing. Depending on your tax bracket, combined with accelerated depreciation you can easily reduce your actual purchase cost by 40 to 45 percent.

RE: purchasing without existing business. I think that it is almost absurd to say what you said. Hundreds of professional videographers got their start by scraping together the cash to get a camera, start shooting and develop skills and eventually a business. For example, I left school in 1981 because I was disgusted at the ignorance level of the electronic journalism course, purchased a VO-4800 and a single tube camera with some savings and my last student loan check and started a career. As a manufacturer of underwater systems I have had the opportunity to deal with dozens of videographers every month at every level from rank newbie to some of the best in the world, and I would estimate that fully 75% progressed in part because at some point they made that leap of faith.

One of the beauties of the RED is the price, In real dollars it is about the same as a JVC KY1900 and V04800 from the 80s - virtually the cheapest pro/semipro camera you could buy - yet it in every way it rivals the very best cameras in the world today. It's less than half the price of a mid 90s Betacam. It's also about the price of a year of "film" school. In terms of potential success I would be much more willing to bet on giving a kid a RED and CF cards and letting him learn, than I would financing a year of his school. At this price quality/point it is a reasonable investment even as an educational tool - and oh by the way it just might be the best motion picture camera in the world - not a bad bonus either which further mitigates the financial concern.

I would, however, agree that noone should go out and buy an F900 or Viper without having it fully booked.


I have to have a solid business plan in place or I'll be in for a big financial blow.

Here is a basic lease analysis, but it is reasonably close for other analyses: (remember if you purchase you would typically save $5K to $8K in taxes through depreciation). It comes out to about $444 a month. If you can't earn more than that a month with your RED then I don't know what to say.

Loan Amount (C)= 23000
Residual Value (F)= 9000
Interest Rate % (R)= 11
Number of Months (N)= 48

Monthly Payment: $ 444.34

Total Payment: $ 21328.19
Total Interest: $ 7328.19

[Steve Sherrick]

Good points, but I'm looking at a different package than just a basic Red Kit. I am looking to offer a more complete Red solution, with on set technical services, and my investment would be more in the 50K range. Without a solid business plan in place that outlines clients that are ready to book this package once it arrives, ones that have expressed an interest, and ones that I think I can at least get meetings with to show the benefits of shooting Red, this becomes a risky venture. This is just common business sense I suppose.

I have no doubt the system will rent out, it's just a matter of making it profitable. If it's profitable, then I do get to play. :-)

Steve

[Martin Drew]

You are correct. You can choose to wait until all features are enabled, which should be sometime early October. Then you have 30 days.

Jim

Is there a list of features that will be enabled? I am not sure now which features are to come some time in the future and which are core features that we should expect to see in this time frame.

Cheers

M

[planet e]

[QUOTE=AquaVideoRed206;82022]

RE: purchasing without existing business. I think that it is almost absurd to say what you said. Hundreds of professional videographers got their start by scraping together the cash to get a camera, start shooting and develop skills and eventually a business. For example, I left school in 1981 because I was disgusted at the ignorance level of the electronic journalism course, purchased a VO-4800 and a single tube camera with some savings and my last student loan check and started a career.

so you're saying you paid cash? not leveraging home equity? or taking out high interest loans on credit cards? good choice.

i never said taking risk was a bad thing, only trying to point out the importance of distinguishing between good risk and bad risk. i banked the cash for my first RED camera as a stock speculator last year, so managing risk has been a professional hazard since 1992. the price point for this camera seems to be enticing to operators who may be taking on more risk than they can manage--that was about my only point.

[Phil Bates]

You are correct. You can choose to wait until all features are enabled, which should be sometime early October. Then you have 30 days.

Jim

Jim, I'm curious, if a purchase is cancled, that potentially leaves a hole in the list, therefore an extra camera becomes available. A serial number without a home. Can I reserve one of those? :-)

Seriously, I was wondering if there is a special wait list for those cameras?

Phil
www.artbeats.com

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Jim, I'm curious, if a purchase is cancled, that potentially leaves a hole in the list, therefore an extra camera becomes available. A serial number without a home. Can I reserve one of those? :-)

Seriously, I was wondering if there is a special wait list for those cameras?

Phil
www.artbeats.com

Jim said early on that a camera not delivered (for such a reason that you mention) would go into a "pool" - I assume those cameras will be free to go where RED see fit (Ie:Major motion picture production - tv series - documentaries), after the first 1460 cameras they are "time stamped" and that probably means that RED can issue cameras to preffered costumers without a notice. (During the 1460 camera initial list, I am sure RED can make more "test" cameras if the want/need for any reason they want.)

When I say "preffered costumers" I imagine that could be established directors/studios/producers - and although it might sound bad - I don´t think it is! The more established people that use this camera, the more the value of it will be - so it´s win-win for everyone who is in already...

[ericyoung]

Jim, I'm curious, if a purchase is cancled, that potentially leaves a hole in the list, therefore an extra camera becomes available. A serial number without a home. Can I reserve one of those? :-)

Seriously, I was wondering if there is a special wait list for those cameras?

Phil
www.artbeats.com

I believe they go into a pool as spares for those hopefully few Reds that develop faults during the warranty period, or as demo units.

[Häakon]

You are correct. You can choose to wait until all features are enabled, which should be sometime early October. Then you have 30 days.

Jim
All features should be enabled in early October? Can you please elaborate on this to avoid potential confusion? :-)