Scratch?

[Shawn Nelson]

Okay...dumb question time....I'm going to reveal my lack of knowledge here...but how much does Assimilate's Scratch cost? I've heard now several times that it's the "only" solution for a raw DI. I'm afraid to know the cost, but I want to know.

[donatello b]

i believe Scratch is a a modular type program ...all depends on what you want/need ... i think top of the line is DI real time out to projector ...
they will not quote prices here ... you can email Lucas and discuss your needs/wants ...

[Shawn Nelson]

Any prices at all? I prefer to know if I'm even in the ballpark before making a call.

[Vincent S]

I believe it's in to $25000 - 35000 range minus storage for all that footage.

[Joel Kaye]

Scratch... I'm afraid to know the cost, but I want to know.

Holy crap. OMG - I just got schooled in another thread that asking the cost of Scratch in public is rude. Apparently that should be obvious.

We're basically Borat.

needless to say... I've got no clue.

[Lucas Wilson]

Any prices at all? I prefer to know if I'm even in the ballpark before making a call.

Shawn,

Email me offlist at lucas at assimilateinc dot com...

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Simon Blackledge]

Interesting demo at IBC. Thanks for hooking me up with the guys Lucas


s

[Curran Giddens]

Any prices at all? I prefer to know if I'm even in the ballpark before making a call.

I asked about the price for Scratch a couple of times in another thread, but I never received an answer. Maybe the answer is: "If you need to ask, it's probably too much."

I think there should be a Reduser special discount.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3684

[Sanjin Jukic]

I asked for the costs of the SCRATCH™ Data-Centric Workflow Solution™ at the Assimilate IBC stand and the representative woman told me approximately about 100.000 Euro or 137.000 US$ for the 4K (hardware+software).

[Shawn Nelson]

$137k?? Wow, I thought it was somewhere in the $10k->$30k region. Well if what you were told is accurate, that definitely means its not for individuals and its only a corporation thing.

[donatello b]

"I thought it was somewhere in the $10k->$30k region"

perhaps what you need is in that range ?

if you had only heard of the name RED & i told you a RED with master primes will cost you 200K !
would you look into it a little more or just figure RED is out of your price range ?

do you really need a real time 4k DI system ?
how many times are you going to go out FILM ?
price what you need !

[Joel Kaye]

do you really need a real time 4k DI system ?
how many times are you going to go out FILM ?
price what you need !

You have to know the price to price what you "need". If someone's offering all that capability for $300 then I need it. If it's $200,000 then I guess I don't need it. "Need" is really the wrong word.

Your whole rant could be applied to a RED if you think about it - just change the price up or down and the number of people who "need" RED would change dramatically.

I think the repeating theme here is people don't really understand Scratch's general price parameters vs. what it's capable of in its diffferent configurations.

[IAN SUN]

You have to know the price to price what you "need". If someone's offering all that capability for $300 then I need it. If it's $200,000 then I guess I don't need it. "Need" is really the wrong word.

Your whole rant could be applied to a RED if you think about it - just change the price up or down and the number of people who "need" RED would change dramatically.

I think the repeating theme here is people don't really understand Scratch's general price parameters vs. what it's capable of in its diffferent configurations.

Brilliant post.

[Paris Remillard]

>Brilliant post<

Totally. I guess I just don't understand why it would be rude to ask the price of a product that is being sold.

[roryhinds]

Scratch would be selling like hot cakes if they where priced like RED.

[GlennChan]

This has been hashed out in this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4142&page=2

2-
I guess I just don't understand why it would be rude to ask the price of a product that is being sold.
It's not rude to ask the price of a product. It's hashed out in the thread above.

3- In the particular case of Scratch, please contact Assimilate off-list as they would prefer to discuss pricing privately.



Email me offlist at lucas at assimilateinc dot com...

I believe part of the reason is to avoid misconceptions as to how much it costs. It may be that exchanges like the following are exactly what they wish to avoid:


I asked for the costs of the SCRATCH™ Data-Centric Workflow Solution™ at the Assimilate IBC stand and the representative woman told me approximately about 100.000 Euro or 137.000 US$ for the 4K (hardware+software)


$137k?? Wow, I thought it was somewhere in the $10k->$30k region. Well if what you were told is accurate, that definitely means its not for individuals and its only a corporation thing.


Scratch would be selling like hot cakes if they where priced like RED.

So anyways, to re-iterate, please contact Assimilate privately if you would like to know pricing.

[Joel Kaye]

I believe part of the reason is to avoid misconceptions as to how much it costs.

The whole "email me and we'll chat" thing is the exact wrong way to avoid misconceptions. It perpetuates them. This is the Internet. Red just launched for real. Newbies will show up every day for quite a while into the future needing an education. Everytime Scratch is mentioned they'll say "what's that and how much is it". And then some user is going to jump on them just like in this thread. And me in another thread.

That's the way it's going to go down every time. It's going to alienate not only those who ask, but many lurkers who are following along. Their first impression of Scratch will be negative - and it's awfully hard to recover from that.

The way to handle it is post the minimum price on their website. Entry level Scratch workstations start at "$" and offer the ability to do this... many different configurations to suit all needs are available, please email or call and Janice our blonde bombshell techno diva stripper will configure your system lke it's never been configured before. <<-optional.. probably work in LA or Texas though

At that point posters will refer new customers to that page. Clients will contact Scratch for further info if they can afford it and they are prequalified sales leads. Win, win.

I should get a consulting fee for this post.

[M Most]

The whole "email me and we'll chat" thing is the exact wrong way to avoid misconceptions. It perpetuates them. This is the Internet. Red just launched for real. Newbies will show up every day for quite a while into the future needing an education. Everytime Scratch is mentioned they'll say "what's that and how much is it".

That's what happens every day on the Internet, and it's primarily because most of the time these questions are asked, they're being asked by those who can't afford what it is they're asking for. They are looking for the magic bullet price-wise - the thing that does something they couldn't really afford for an amount they almost can think about affording. Clearly, Red is in that category. But Red is a hardware product that has a unique value and a unique corporate structure. The problem for Assimilate is that in the world of software (and BTW, Scratch is a software product - there is no such thing as a "Scratch Workstation," although there are recommended hardware combinations), selling purely on price is the quickest way to business oblivion. Assimilate is a small company that has no need to sell the millions of seats that Apple does - in part because it would be next to impossible to support them, and in part because like Red, it's always been a developmental work in progress. That's one reason why a lot of us who use it like it, but it's also why selling on price would cause a destructive change to what the company was set up to be, severely alienating their user base - not a good idea.

[Joel Kaye]

That's one reason why a lot of us who use it like it, but it's also why selling on price would cause a destructive change to what the company was set up to be, severely alienating their user base - not a good idea.

Selling on price is an entirely different discussion. I don't believe anyone is asking them to drop their price in order to compete with Color. I'd say you totally misinterpreted this thread if you think that's what people are talking about.

I can promise you one thing, they'll make a helluvalotta sales pitches to unqualified buyers if they don't indicate a minimum price range. Small companies usually don't have that kind of time to waste. Customers don't either.

IMHO , the biggest reason not to indicate any price at all is if they are wheeling and dealing with every buyer and the price for the same thing is reasonably different from one client to the next. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it does create a dillemma. You need keep everything very hush hush.

Good luck with that these days. It's not 1972.

[Lucas Wilson]

I asked about the price for Scratch a couple of times in another thread, but I never received an answer. Maybe the answer is: "If you need to ask, it's probably too much."

I think there should be a Reduser special discount.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3684

Hi Curran,

Please email me offlist at lucas at assimilateinc dot com for pricing information.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Lucas Wilson]

I asked for the costs of the SCRATCH™ Data-Centric Workflow Solution™ at the Assimilate IBC stand and the representative woman told me approximately about 100.000 Euro or 137.000 US$ for the 4K (hardware+software).

And this is why I try very hard to avoid pricing discussions online.

The hardware necessary for 4K RGB is probably around 100.000 Euro, because we're talking about a disk subsystem that can support 1.2GB/s sustained reads over the length of a feature. That is not cheap, no matter how you slice it. The cost in this particular case is mostly hardware.

Guys - SCRATCH is a modular software system that runs on essentially commodity hardware. Depending on which modules you put together, the prices vary by tens of thousands of dollars. The hardware you put together for it could be anything from a laptop for just doing conforms, or a 4K SAN for realtime 4K RGB work... so that varies from about US$3K to about US$150K. SCRATCH and DI systems are not Apple Store kind of items where there is mass commodity pricing. Other than a personal preference I have of not talking about pricing on a board that isn't mine, it's a question of almost everybody having slightly different needs and therefore different list prices.

And... as always... contact me at lucas at assimilateinc dot com for specific discussions.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Lucas Wilson]

The way to handle it is post the minimum price on their website. Entry level Scratch workstations start at "$" and offer the ability to do this... many different configurations to suit all needs are available, please email or call and Janice our blonde bombshell techno diva stripper will configure your system lke it's never been configured before. <<-optional.. probably work in LA or Texas though...

For a commodity product, absolutely. Not for us. By the way... while we've been discussing this over the past few days, I have probably received 2 dozen private emails from the reduser community about pricing... and have answered all of them. : )


I should get a consulting fee for this post.

No problem... I'll figure it into a discount on the purchase of your first SCRATCH system.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Joel Kaye]

For a commodity product, absolutely. Not for us. By the way... while we've been discussing this over the past few days, I have probably received 2 dozen private emails from the reduser community about pricing... and have answered all of them. : )


Awesome. And how does that rate with the previous week?

What's different?

[Lucas Wilson]

Awesome. And how does that rate with the previous week?

What's different?

Hey Joel... I understand you disagree with our pricing discussion philosophy. And that's fine. : )

But I feel like I've explained things pretty adequately and am done talking about it for now. You know how to get in touch with me if you want to seriously discuss pricing.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Joel Kaye]

Hey Joel... I understand you disagree with our pricing discussion philosophy. And that's fine. : )


OK :-) I do have a compliment or two for you...

I think your post explaining that the range was from $3k to $150k and it was modular software was very helpful while remaining vague - like you like it.

It looks like you've got a very competitive product for real time 2K etc. based on your website. Looks like a great niche. You know where your profit comes from.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/347368/sales_advice_prospecting_high_income.html

[Sanjin Jukic]

And this is why I try very hard to avoid pricing discussions online.

The hardware necessary for 4K RGB is probably around 100.000 Euro, because we're talking about a disk subsystem that can support 1.2GB/s sustained reads over the length of a feature. That is not cheap, no matter how you slice it. The cost in this particular case is mostly hardware.

Guys - SCRATCH is a modular software system that runs on essentially commodity hardware. Depending on which modules you put together, the prices vary by tens of thousands of dollars. The hardware you put together for it could be anything from a laptop for just doing conforms, or a 4K SAN for realtime 4K RGB work... so that varies from about US$3K to about US$150K. SCRATCH and DI systems are not Apple Store kind of items where there is mass commodity pricing. Other than a personal preference I have of not talking about pricing on a board that isn't mine, it's a question of almost everybody having slightly different needs and therefore different list prices.

And... as always... contact me at lucas at assimilateinc dot com for specific discussions.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

In a talk at IBC show with Marie Buckley, the official ASSIMILATE contact and stand representative.
I said that SCRATCH 4K solution as I heard could cost approximately 100.000 Euro and she replied: "Yeah, about and it depends on hardware..."
After that I would say SCRATCH is not for an individual user like me.
The first is too expensive solution and the second is not running on Mac OS X.
I stick with "Apple Store kind of items" like FCP, Color, Shake, Motion, Soundtrack Pro
and look to get more hardware like JLCooper Eclipse (about 10.000 Euro), Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (2.895 Euro) etc...
Than I could confirm even 2K film comfortably at home. Maybe it takes more space and longer time to render all in FCP
but is more like a home cooking, takes more time to prepare but a quality of food is better or even excellent.
Fast food is not good for health as we know well.

[Shawn Nelson]

I emailed luki and he was very gracious. A really great guy.

A big strength of Reduser is that we are a group of wide skills and budgets. This strength is not so good for someone like Luki. Quite frankly, I can't even dream of Scratch until I start making piles of money. I'm splitting Red with my Dad (and the bank) just to afford the $40k package I'm putting together. So the trouble for him is to sift through those of us who are barely buying Red, and those of us that could easily buy 5 Reds fully loaded.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I am sure that Luki is a great guy.
Also I can confirm that Marie Buckley is a beautiful woman and a nice person.

[Mark B.]

When a company refuses to post their product prices, it's typically because they have a product/service that could easily be made and sold for a lower price by someone else. In other words, secretive companies try to hide prices so that their potential competitors don't get wind of what is probably a severe market imbalance.

On the flip side, a company that is offering a good deal will typically slather their prices all over the place because they know the competition is going to have a hard time beating it.

I wouldn't want to buy from a company that hides their prices, even if I could afford it, which I can't.

[Rob Lohman]

When a company refuses to post their product prices, it's typically because they have a product/service that could easily be made and sold for a lower price by someone else. In other words, secretive companies try to hide prices so that their potential competitors don't get wind of what is probably a severe market imbalance.

On the flip side, a company that is offering a good deal will typically slather their prices all over the place because they know the competition is going to have a hard time beating it.

I wouldn't want to buy from a company that hides their prices, even if I could afford it, which I can't.

I think you will find that Assimilate is very competitive with their prices. Have you tried talking & getting prices from other big iron systems? I'm confused how you can say you can't afford it when you don't know their price. Otherwise I would advice you to look at systems like After Effects and Shake / Color. Sounds like that might be more up your alley.

Your comment about potential competitors is quite funny. They would only have to send an email to find out the pricing structure. Pretty hard to do, no?

Personally I think it would suit you if you respect Assimilate's way of doing business and kept the trash talk to yourself. Not sure why you're even responding if it's "outside your price range" (apparently).

Thank you,

[Poi Boy]

everyone is so touchy on this thread...call luki get a price, simple.
-A

[Lucas Wilson]

In a talk at IBC show with Marie Buckley, the official ASSIMILATE contact and stand representative.
I said that SCRATCH 4K solution as I heard could cost approximately 100.000 Euro and she replied: "Yeah, about and it depends on hardware..."
After that I would say SCRATCH is not for an individual user like me.

Sanjin,

Like I said - For a 4K RGB system, this is correct. There is a big, BIG difference between a setup capable of doing realtime 4K RGB and a system capable of doing 30MB/s (REDCODE RAW.)


The first is too expensive solution and the second is not running on Mac OS X.

Yes - a 4K RGB system is very expensive. But please be sure you know what specs you really need. Hardware is almost always the biggest delta in pricing a system. And as far as not running on OSX - I am running SCRATCH on Bootcamp with no issues... So if your problem is that you don't want to buy a new machine - that's cool. If your issue is that you don't want to reboot into XP becase you don't like it... well... I guess I can't help you then. :blink:


I stick with "Apple Store kind of items" like FCP, Color, Shake, Motion, Soundtrack Pro but is more like a home cooking, takes more time to prepare but a quality of food is better or even excellent. Fast food is not good for health as we know well.

The thing about home cooking is that the easy stuff is easy. The hard stuff never tastes as good as a chef... uness you spend a loooooonnnnng time practicing, and suffer through manu failures. You have no idea how long I've been trying to make a bouillibaise that tastes as good as the one Le Petit Cafe makes on Colorado in Santa Monica. :)

(I'll take any analogy and twist it for my own use... )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin,

Like I said - For a 4K RGB system, this is correct. There is a big, BIG difference between a setup capable of doing realtime 4K RGB and a system capable of doing 30MB/s (REDCODE RAW.)



Yes - a 4K RGB system is very expensive. But please be sure you know what specs you really need. Hardware is almost always the biggest delta in pricing a system. And as far as not running on OSX - I am running SCRATCH on Bootcamp with no issues... So if your problem is that you don't want to buy a new machine - that's cool. If your issue is that you don't want to reboot into XP becase you don't like it... well... I guess I can't help you then. :blink:



The thing about home cooking is that the easy stuff is easy. The hard stuff never tastes as good as a chef... uness you spend a loooooonnnnng time practicing, and suffer through manu failures. You have no idea how long I've been trying to make a bouillibaise that tastes as good as the one Le Petit Cafe makes on Colorado in Santa Monica. :)

(I'll take any analogy and twist it for my own use... )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks Luki, I believe you and probably you are right. I'll sent you an email.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I wonder if Scratch might make sense for the low rent crowd (of which I am decidedly a member), if we can use it to buy us more grading time mixing time on scratch on our own systems with some time in a proper suite, which in addition to having all that storage will have proper monitoring, which is also essential and very expensive. So we could hire a colourist to sit with us and our mac pros to go through the film on Scratch and do a first grade working in RED RAW, then take the project file and RED RAW media into a proper facility to check every shot, make necessary changes and do a filmout.
Is that a workflow that would make sense?

Or to get away from my usual "do everything" stance (stupid), maybe there's room for that kind of workflow in a Post house. Like the Avid workflow: you sit in this room and it's $200 an hour, you sit in this room and it's $40.. Or perhaps colourists will buy Scratch and set up their own budget colouring setup, like many Editors have done in the last few years with FCP..?

[M Most]

I wonder if Scratch might make sense for the low rent crowd (of which I am decidedly a member), if we can use it to buy us more grading time mixing time on scratch on our own systems with some time in a proper suite, which in addition to having all that storage will have proper monitoring, which is also essential and very expensive. So we could hire a colourist to sit with us and our mac pros to go through the film on Scratch and do a first grade working in RED RAW, then take the project file and RED RAW media into a proper facility to check every shot, make necessary changes and do a filmout.
Is that a workflow that would make sense?

Not really. If you don't have proper monitoring, nothing you do is what you think it is. You're spending all of your time doing something that then has to basically be redone. Any reasonably good professional colorist should be able to do a relatively close match to selected stills in short order, so the "first pass" is something that goes pretty fast, given a good colorist in a professional environment.

I think a lot of people here have a very inaccurate idea of the time and cost factors involved in professional finishing. They seem to want to find shortcuts that are not really shortcuts, they're a lot of work for very little gain. It would be a good thing for a lot of people who have never actually taken a project to completion in a professional facility to do some homework by visiting a facility, showing some of their material, and rationally discussing what it would take to finish it properly and create needed deliverables. You might be surprised at what good partners post professionals can be.

[jbeale]

> If you don't have proper monitoring, nothing you do is what you think it is.

Hard to argue with that. I'm curious what the parameters of "proper monitoring" are though. Obviously a calibrated monitor is important, but there are software/hardware packages that can do this at quite reasonable prices. What is the resolution considered necessary for this type of work? I don't think there are any 4k monitors on the market, are there?

[Joel Kaye]

> I'm curious what the parameters of "proper monitoring" are though.

Mmost is right about visiting a post house if you can. That's a lot easier in LA or New York of course.

Color correcting is really about the final viewing environment. I know a pro that has a good consumer DLP, Plasma and CRT that he uses for proofing. If it looks good on all 3 he's happy because he's probably emulated most of what his viewers are seeing... DVD in that case. He's got access to the really expensive Sony HD CRT's too... but he's smart enough to know nobody else does.

Digital Projection could look a little different. Film out is another thing altogether and you're really gonna need some help there.

JVC has an awfully nice monitor for around $4 grand. They have a really nice projector for about $6,000.

http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

The real trick is when you start outputting to different formats and hardware for delivery... I think you'll need your post guys for that. There's no reason to own that gear unless you output A LOT.

Color correction I feel is different. If you personally want tight control of your look you will learn it. Between Shake and After Effects you can do an awful lot if you're zen at pulling mattes.

This topic is big but every RED owner is going to need to understand it.

[Lucas Wilson]

When a company refuses to post their product prices, it's typically because they have a product/service that could easily be made and sold for a lower price by someone else. In other words, secretive companies try to hide prices so that their potential competitors don't get wind of what is probably a severe market imbalance.

On the flip side, a company that is offering a good deal will typically slather their prices all over the place because they know the competition is going to have a hard time beating it.

I wouldn't want to buy from a company that hides their prices, even if I could afford it, which I can't.

So I guess this means you wouldn't buy from: Avid, Quantel, Autodesk, Filmlight, Digital Vision (Nucoda,) Cintel, Arri, DaVinci, Pandora... I could go on.

Your statement may be true for consumer and prosumer products where the COGs and Modular BOM pricing are clear and well understood. It is almost never true for the high-end, where customization is the norm, not the exception.

And at the end of the day - if somebody is serious about buying a product (which you have clearly stated you are not) then there is only so long that pricing can be hidden. Eventually, somebody has to write a check.

For whatever weird reason, people that are really interested in buying something are usually not afraid of calling a sales rep or a channel rep and asking about pricing. :tongue:


Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[M Most]

Mmost is right about visiting a post house if you can. That's a lot easier in LA or New York of course.

True. But there are solid, professional post houses - a number of them doing film work - in many other locations as well. Philadelphia, Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver, Toronto, and, yes, Miami (where I am), as well as countless other locations inside and outside of the US and Canada.



Color correcting is really about the final viewing environment.

Quite true, and of course that depends on what you're planning in the way of deliverables.


Digital Projection could look a little different. Film out is another thing altogether and you're really gonna need some help there.

Even more true. Not only does the environment itself change the perception of what you're looking at, so does the size of the screen. A larger image in a dark room often leads you to different creative decisions than a smaller image on a monitor in a partially lit room. As you say, it's about the "final" viewing environment.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Fair enough, you are right of course, one needs to be able to see what one is doing.
I noticed at IBC that Apple's color app is able to display an image that is very close to the image displayed on the JVC monitors that they had. Close enough to finish in Color looking at your apple display, for loads of little low budget projects.
Now feature films, long form documentaries, or any "passion project" are of course a completely different story. And one will be inclined to spend what one can to make it perfect. Since RED produces flat images that must given a look by a colourist I worry that many of us will not be able to afford the much longer time the colourist will have to work on the project to finish the film. We not just colour timing film anymore, the grade is where the whole look of the film happens, and if we are in a tremendous hurry because we are spending enormous sums of money with every hour that passes, the temptation will be to just "make it look pretty". I've experienced that many times, where the clients don't really know what they can do or want and the there is loads of time pressure, so the colourist simply says "Do you want me to make it look pretty?" and of course most people say yes.. Leading to the same thing over and over again: Saturation, perhaps a bleach bypass, "film look". And the result is that it looks like a cartoon of a film, like an advert..
That's why I'm searching for a workflow that would enable a proper creative dialogue with a colourist (I'm not saying that this never happens now people!), as the Director would with the DP, or the Production Designer, or the Editor..

[Mark Thorpe]

everyone is so touchy on this thread...call luki get a price, simple. -A Here, here. Seems of late the whole RED camaraderie of the recent past has kinda slipped away.........c'mon guys, respect where respect is due.

Cheers,
Mark.

[roryhinds]

I do think if Scratch was priced more inline with RED it would gain more market share.

RED has a hardware product that wins hands down compared to Arri, Panavision and Sony. Yet RED has seen the mid level industry is growing and this is the future. The mid level is becoming the high level.

Computers are getting faster and cheaper all the time so I don't see the hard ware being the expensive part of Scratch. All the computer bits of Scratch are off the shelf components which are coming down in price everyday. The only thing in the mix that remains high is the Tangent controls which you could always go for JL Cooper at half the price.

You have to admit that there is a huge amount of new clients needing a professional colour finishing tool to go with there RED cameras and these clients wouldn't look at Autodesk just like they would not purchase a Arri or Viper.

If Scratch was a little under half its price it is now (for the software only) I believe it would sell a great deal more licenses.

I'm not asking for Apple give away prices, just for independent artist who knows a good tool type prices like RED have done with the REDONE. There are a lot of us spending $40k - $60k with RED and I'd say thats no prosumer chuck of change...

It would make sense to spend the same on a Scratch software & hardware system.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Here, here. Seems of late the whole RED camaraderie of the recent past has kinda slipped away.........c'mon guys, respect where respect is due.

Cheers,
Mark.

amen :usd:

[Curran Giddens]

If Scratch was a little under half its price it is now (for the software only) I believe it would sell a great deal more licenses.

I'm not asking for Apple give away prices, just for independent artist who knows a good tool type prices like RED have done with the REDONE. There are a lot of us spending $40k - $60k with RED and I'd say thats no prosumer chuck of change...

It would make sense to spend the same on a Scratch software & hardware system.

I agree. I still don't really know exactly how much it costs for just the software (too afraid to ask). Also, how can they reduce the price without alienating their existing customer base?

Would it be rude to create a poll here in the Off Topic section asking how much one would be willing to spend for the basic software?

[Simon Blackledge]

Like Lucas said.. it's modular..

So the "basic" software would just be a dailies application...

You have to decide why you want Scratch.. how it will be used.. the add up all the modules cost.

s

[roryhinds]

Red is modular too :-)

[Tony Lorentzen]

Here's a not so (to me anyway) distant thought: "RED acquires Assimilate". What do you think?

[Michael Schrengohst]

Here's a not so (to me anyway) distant thought: "RED acquires Assimilate". What do you think?

?
How about "Apple acquires Assimilate", that would make more
sense. But who knows the mindset of Assimilate?
I know Jim swears up and down that RED will never go public
or be sold. So any speculation about who, what, when and
how is just that. RED is the hot ticket now and let's see
what develops around it.

[Curran Giddens]

I think Apple will try and compete with Assimilate instead of acquiring them. All Apple needs is support for 4k Redcode RAW files natively in "Color" and some better GPU's.

[Simon Blackledge]

Apple need a more stable app.

[roryhinds]

Apple have done wonders with Final Touch and its very stable if you know how to work with it.

Color needs REDCode RAW 4k support and multiple masks in secondaries and better copy paste functions.

A better interface like Scratch or Luster wouldn't go a miss either

[Walter R]

As a small production company, we regularly get calls from potential new clients asking something like this:

"We are interested in putting together a new video (insert a few more details here of projected use, etc.) about 5 to 10 minutes long. How much would that cost?"

Now, if we were offering a commodity product, I might be able to answer this, but for us, and I would expect most people on this board, the final answer to this questions would vary dramatically depending on a whole host of details - anywhere from less than $10K for something very simple to well over $100K based on format, shoot days, graphics, talent fees, etc. Even if I was to put sample "configurations" on our Web site, I'm sure many people would make assumptions or have needs that differ enough that potential clients would call expecting one price and be dissapointed if what they really needed/wanted cost more.

When we get these calls, discuss all their needs, take the time to explain our approach, then give them a detailed proposal, we often get the business even if they had expected it would cost less. If their budget or cost assumptions are just not going to work they generally leave understanding what it will take to get them the product they want. Many actually wind up being future clients and even if they don't some even refer others to us down the road.

Anyway, enough about our little world, but I'm guessing the Scratch situation is similar. For me, just getting a ballpark price isn't really that helpful and in fact if I had only seen some of the higher numbers dropped in these forums I might have dismissed it entirely. In the end, I need to understand what the real value will be to my business and how that differs (cost wise and quality wise) from just using Color or sending out to other shops for finishing. Its a business decision and I need that information to make it effecively. So I will email to find out more. Then if it is or isn't something that will work for us in the short run I'll know more about the product, what it would cost for our specific needs and understand where it might fit into our business plan in the future. And from actual contact with the company I'll get a sense of how they'll treat me as a customer, their attitude, etc.

Just my $.02.

Walter

[roryhinds]

Hey Walter your analogy is way off... how can you compare time base work involving crews, editors, equipment and all to different production values and deliverables to a piece of software thats sold.

The piece of software is a finished product. The Video is a project that is created for the client from scratch. Excuse the pun :-)

[Joel Kaye]

As a small production company, we regularly get calls from potential new clients asking something like this:

"We are interested in putting together a new video (insert a few more details here of projected use, etc.) about 5 to 10 minutes long. How much would that cost?"


Sounds like you repeat yourself a lot.

If you specialized in high end commercials and fielded questions who were looking for low end commercials all day you could easily prevent that wasted time by mentioning typical projects for a firm like yours start at $25k and can run into the millions in your advertising and website alongside examples. That's why Scratch is not like you.

Even in your case - depending how much time you're spending on all those calls you'd be better off detailing a few theoretical projects at different price points on your website... ideally they would be videos. Create a demo DVD with all that info and give them away. You'll present your sales pitch perfectly every time.

I have a friend who's a custom video editing system integrator. He makes all his money on clients that buy over $50k of stuff. We were talking a while back and he said - "you should see what my average day looks like... I get calls all day long from people pick my brain and then go buy from BHPhoto because they are $20 cheaper." His belief was maybe he could upsell some of these people etc. and I asked him how often that happened. Almost never... and the reason was these people are little fish and they were not his customer. He was taking time away from serving big customers to work with all these little guys. But at the same time little guys can turn into big guys overnight in this industry so making them angry doesn't help.

Ultimately I thought he should create as much free information on his website covering typical daily questions so he could still offer the information but not have to do it personally.

For more detailed knowledge and integration issues I thought he should add hourly consulting fees instead of relying on hardware sales for profits - like Mike at HD for Indies does. Then everyone knows what his business is - when you need an expert he's the guy. And say it before they call.

I had other ideas - but you get the point. Most organizations don't optimize their sales activities. Pros toss out what they think they know and test different approaches and track the differences. Then they do it again because the market is always changing. Just ask Arri.

[Cail Young]

Color needs REDCode RAW 4k support and multiple masks in secondaries and better copy paste functions.

I'm pretty sure every shot can have eight secondaries, each with a vignette that can either be a quadrilateral, ellipse, or custom spline shape.

[Simon Blackledge]

Apple have done wonders with Final Touch and its very stable if you know how to work with it.

Color needs REDCode RAW 4k support and multiple masks in secondaries and better copy paste functions.

A better interface like Scratch or Luster wouldn't go a miss either

Ok fair enough :)

[Walter R]

Hey Walter your analogy is way off... how can you compare time base work involving crews, editors, equipment and all to different production values and deliverables to a piece of software thats sold.

The piece of software is a finished product. The Video is a project that is created for the client from scratch. Excuse the pun :-)

Hi Rory,

Sorry if it didn't work for you. My main point was that I understood that there were many variables that go into price and the lack of a single easy to explain price stucture, such as we have for FCP and other commodities, meant that publishing numbers could easily lead to misunderstandings. For me this is consistent with my business experience, although I don't expect it is the same for everyone else.

Walter

[Walter R]

Sounds like you repeat yourself a lot.

If you specialized in high end commercials and fielded questions who were looking for low end commercials all day you could easily prevent that wasted time by mentioning typical projects for a firm like yours start at $25k and can run into the millions in your advertising and website alongside examples. That's why Scratch is not like you.

Even in your case - depending how much time you're spending on all those calls you'd be better off detailing a few theoretical projects at different price points on your website...

Hi Joelnet,

Thanks for the free advice, but please don't assume too much about the word "regularly". I meant it happens a dozen or so times a year, not that it was a daily intrusion.

Anyway, the main point was that Assimilate seems to have a variety of options dependings on a client's needs, and that I understood, from my own experience, that it was better to explore that in consultation with them than to just get a cookie cutter price.

Thanks,
Walter

[Joel Kaye]

I meant it happens a dozen or so times a year, not that it was a daily intrusion.


Ah. Yeah - a dozen times a year is another issue entirely.

[Lucas Wilson]

Just for everybody's general information... I have gotten a lot of offlist e-mails in the past few days requesting price options.

And we are actually discussing price options. : )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Simon Blackledge]

mine will be one of them! lol..

thanks Lucas..

S

[roryhinds]

great news Lucas.. I look forward to hearing the outcome.

[laguun]

So I guess this means you wouldn't buy from: Avid, Quantel, Autodesk, Filmlight, Digital Vision (Nucoda,) Cintel, Arri, DaVinci, Pandora... I could go on.


luki, i like you. that being said:

i have been working on the other, on "your" side of the fence luki.
nacho is a great guy (he is one, if not "the" scratch salesguy).

i also played the game to mislead consumers/customers.

assimilate doesn´t sell cpus, raids, vga-adapters and so on.
you never built computers.

you sell your software.
a cd-rom.

raids (500-500.000)
graphics (quadro 4500, 500-5.000)
are usual retail computer parts.

i have been offered, this ibc, scratch from 14.000 to 55.000$
for the same package. from your sales folks.
sales people of assimilate asked "what is your budget".

wasn´t different with discreet frost, discreet edit, 5d cyborg or colossus.

red doesn´t mislead consumers.
sony doesn´t mislead consumers.
panasonic doesn´t mislead consumers.
adobe doesn´t mislead consumers. (ok, they do here and there=
apple doesn´t mislead consumers.

we will probably go, after having looked at
- scratch
- quantel iQ/eQ/pablo
- pandora/pooge
- davinici
- sony
- mystika
- matrix

with iridas speedgrade.
they have their competetion product, "speedgrade HD", priced at 9.995.
http://iridas.com/

they consuted everyone at their booth.
for free.
for hours.

and they also said that they don´t like "sales thrashtalk" or unaware, underinformed customers.

their product is on osx, windows, linux.
they support raw for Arri, speedcam, vision 65, S.I. etc.

assimilate didn´t show -any- red raw or redcode at this ibc to us.
we asked, every day.

iridas is a nice, excellent product.
its scratch-level.
its 9.9995.
they will consult you with the hardware.
no matter if mac pro, dell optiplex or hp.

we will probably buy their product.
they offer a 30 day testride.

so, with all due respect: don´t explain why assimilate still isn´t able to have a list price for software.
remember:
you sell software. not systems.

iridas, dvs and some other company - they offer 4k.
some of them : in realtime
all have list prices.

i was disgusted by the price policy at -any- manufacturer who asked me to "send an email".

scratch was between 14 - 55.000$.
for the software. not for an system. the inicated pricerange was offered in one day.


so luki. how much is the software "scratch"?

p.s. i like the funcionality. even w/o redcode.

[laguun]

luki, if i am not wrong: scratch is at ~2-5 fps in 4k.

4k realtime is available from quantel. iridas (3d and stereo, go figure). filmlight. discreet.

and adobe CS3.
in 16 bit.

[Lucas Wilson]

luki, if i am not wrong: scratch is at ~2-5 fps in 4k.

4k realtime is available from quantel. iridas (3d and stereo, go figure). filmlight. discreet.

and adobe CS3.
in 16 bit.

That is false. With the right disk subsystem - SCRATCH is 24fps with 4K FullAp. We have customers doing it today.

Also - I would recommend that with ANY of the vendors (us included) that you bring your own files to test with. It is very easy to demo a "perfect solution."

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Lucas Wilson]

assimilate doesn´t sell cpus, raids, vga-adapters and so on. you never built computers. you sell your software. a cd-rom.

http://www.assimilateinc.com/apl.html

We spend a *lot* of time doing comprehensive testing of various systems so we know that we can stand behind what we sell the turnkey environments that we sell all the time.


raids (500-500.000)
graphics (quadro 4500, 500-5.000)
are usual retail computer parts.

Carburetor (500 - 5,000)
Transmission (200 - 4,000)
Crankshaft (500 - 5,000)

It's not the parts, it's how you put them together. (see APL site above)


i have been offered, this ibc, scratch from 14.000 to 55.000$ for the same package. from your sales folks. sales people of assimilate asked "what is your budget".

That's a valid range depending on modules. That's not misleading - just facts. We only sell one package - SCRATCH. So - yes - "SCRATCH" can have many prices for the "same package." It's all in how the modules come together. I've sold SCRATCH solutions that cost $12K and $300K. It's not because we're trying to screw anyone, it's because individual needs really are that different. A laptop with SCRATCH in an onset configuration is a whole lot different than a 2K-stereo-capable SAN with a full Finishing bundle. What is so hard to understand about that?


red doesn´t mislead consumers.
sony doesn´t mislead consumers.
panasonic doesn´t mislead consumers.
adobe doesn´t mislead consumers. (ok, they do here and there=
apple doesn´t mislead consumers.

If you believe we misled you, I truly apologize. But the prices they gave you at the booth were correct, and reflect different modular configurations, and I stand by that.


we will probably go, after having looked at
- scratch
- quantel iQ/eQ/pablo
- pandora/pooge
- davinici
- sony
- mystika
- matrix

with iridas speedgrade. they have their competetion product, "speedgrade HD", priced at 9.995. http://iridas.com/


Sounds like you guys have done a ton of review. And if that is the right package for you, more power to you... SCRATCH certainly is not right for everyone.


assimilate didn´t show -any- red raw or redcode at this ibc to us. we asked, every day.

To be honest, we did not get our RED demo system working until the 2nd day - hardware idiocy on our part. But starting on the 2nd day, we had one system in our suite completely dedicated to showing REDCODE and RED demos, and had demos booked wall-to-wall throughout the remainder of the show. If you are still interested in taking a look, let me know and I can arrange it.


iridas is a nice, excellent product. its scratch-level. its 9.9995.

SpeedgradeHD is limited to HD resolution. Do you think that is an accurate comparison?


remember: you sell software. not systems.

Sorry laguun, but that simply isn't true. The vast majority of the quotes we do and the SCRATCH systems we sell are just that - turnkey systems with partners we work very hard with to determine compatibility and reliability.


i was disgusted by the price policy at -any- manufacturer who asked me to "send an email".

Bummer. I do hope you are happy and successful with whatever system you choose...


scratch was between 14 - 55.000$. for the software. not for an system. the inicated pricerange was offered in one day. so luki. how much is the software "scratch"?

If I haven't explained how we do things and why well enough by now, I'm not sure I ever can.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[roryhinds]

I don't understand how Scratch has different price points. Surely its the same software modules that make up the package and the hardware can change for functionality.

The RED One is a set price and doesn't change according to your budget.

We all know you can run Final Cut Pro on a Laptop or on a Mac Pro with AJA etc and those two systems will have different power but the cost of Final Cut Pro is the same regardless what you run it on.

Sure Apple has recommended hardware to achieve the power you need but the cost remains the same regardless of what you want to use FCP for.

[GlennChan]

Do you want a viewfinder? The LCD screen too? The RAW port? Even Red is modular and has different pricing.

2- This thread... has really gone off the rails.

[Damien Molineaux]

...

The thing about home cooking is that the easy stuff is easy. The hard stuff never tastes as good as a chef... uness you spend a loooooonnnnng time practicing, and suffer through manu failures. You have no idea how long I've been trying to make a bouillibaise that tastes as good as the one Le Petit Cafe makes on Colorado in Santa Monica. :)

(I'll take any analogy and twist it for my own use... )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

That would be "bouillabaisse" ! I'll teach you if you teach me to master Scratch...

Cheers,
Damien

[vsv]

I want to know difference between SpeedGrade DI with DualStream Stereoscopic Module(from 29950 EUR)
http://www.iridas.com/products/ and SCRATCH 4K 3D (price is BIG secret ?).

[Michael Lindsay]

Luki

I suspect that a version of scratch that limited to REDCODE (OR RED raw) on input would be a way of assimilate offering Red customers a better price as many are not facilities...

Other file input options would limit at HD... A RED or HD system..

This would allow assimilate to offer Red customers a product that can do red work for a lower price point...

I have no interest in doing DI/gradeing work for other people and therefore could not justify more than a $40k spend on a station.. (including software,panel, storage, and CPU/GPU)..

what do you think?.. You have potential to make a lot of sales.. Limit 1 feature (2k 4k other than redcode input) and sell it to this needy market (red)..

Michael

[vsv]

Do you want a viewfinder? The LCD screen too? The RAW port? Even Red is modular and has different pricing.

2- This thread... has really gone off the rails.

When i go to shop i want to see prices for products.

Make table like this
"Product Feature and Comparison Guide"
http://cineform.com/products/default.htm

...and sell more :biggrin:

[Simon Blackledge]

Just Redcode would not work.. at some point you'll want to bring gfx in or export for some vfx.. so you need to re-import.. and you can't.. unless of course you can go back to redcode-RGB if that appears...

S

[Michael Lindsay]

Just Redcode would not work.. at some point you'll want to bring gfx in or export for some vfx.. so you need to re-import.. and you can't.. unless of course you can go back to redcode-RGB if that appears...

S

That is why I sugested up to HD input as well (I understand it needs more though... )

I might not have suggested the right way of doing this but a compliment to Red rather than a full 2k/4k cin/dpx film pipline tool would work for me....

Michael

[roryhinds]

why not be like RED and don't disable features on your products.

Resolution is always increasing and look at Photoshop it can handle any resolution without charging more if you wanted to work at 4k.

Surely working at high resolution is all Hardware dependent.

Yes the RED package is modular but the prices are set. They don't charge Larry more for his RED ONe body just because he wants to shoot commercials.

Bottom line is Scratch is a great tool and we all want to use it in various setups working on HD, 2k or 4k or 12k when it comes. Which should just be a matter of hardware choices and budgets.

If Scratch was more in line with RED pricing I think most RED buyers would have a Scratch.

[roryhinds]

I'd say take out the collaborative modules aimed at large corporations with many scratch artists, things like shots notes and remote view.

Have a scratch that is aimed at the single independent artist without the features needed for team work.

They could have 2 versions of Scratch. One for the indy artist and one for the large team.

[M Most]

I'd say take out the collaborative modules aimed at large corporations with many scratch artists, things like shots notes and remote view.

Have a scratch that is aimed at the single independent artist without the features needed for team work.

They could have 2 versions of Scratch. One for the indy artist and one for the large team.

You really don't seem to understand what Lucas has been trying to tell you.

Professionals and do-it-yourselfers require vastly different levels of support. Assimilate provides professional level support for its users and that is one reason the product is as solid as it is. It is also why they can add and change things fairly quickly for a complex program. Their market is their market. They don't really want to become Apple. They have no need to market a cut rate product - one which would ultimately diminish the worth of their professional product in a lot of people's eyes - just to gain a few hundred seats at a cheap price and a lot more support headaches. What you seem to really want is for a company that's producing a very good product at a very fair price to suddenly give it away cheap so you can have it. That's the bottom line. But it doesn't (and shouldn't) work that way.

As for the argument that Red has a "set price" compared to the modular approach of Assimilate, that's complete nonsense. You can have a Red package for $17.5K (the body only), or you can have a Red package for $50K (the body and all the accessories and glass). With Scratch, you can have a Scratch system for $10K (base software license and a laptop), or you can have a Scratch system for $120K (base software, dual head, scaffolds, media layer, compositing options, high end workstation, high end dual link HD-SDI video card, additional card for 3D capabilities, ultra high speed disk array with lots of storage). I don't see the conceptual difference here. In the professional world, there are always base versions of products - which very few professionals buy - and fully optioned out versions that do everything you need to satisfy the clients you serve. That's the same whether you're buying a DI finishing system or a Red camera.

[conrad gaunt]

Amateur economics. Lesson 1.
The point at which supply and demand cross, when prices/sales are plotted on a graph, is known as the equilibrium price. It may not be the price that maximizes profit per unit sold but will maximize overall sales revenue. Thats the theory. If your overall market is small or specialist (like for scratch probably), companies probably can`t use this model, and economies of scale for them will be smaller too. Hence higher prices. Then theres the need to update technology related products regularily, hardware and software, research and development, paying skilled people (technology companies are normally only as good as the sum of their staffs skill base) .. I`m not defending prices, only realising the need for companies to make profit, else dissolve into history, and planned/communist economies are only good at military development generally speaking, normally at the expense of food and other stuff.. Now about my scratch discount.. (only kidding)

[roryhinds]

From Lucas's post it sounded like the pricing varies on who is purchasing and how they will use the system.

I am well aware of there being different levels of RED camera configurations and these are based on set prices for the parts.

Assimilate charge extra for support. They can change things fast with their software because they are a small team, much like RED can.

I'm not asking them to sell Scratch at cut rate prices - just at a price which is more in-line with RED which I would say are not cheap.

The hardware needed to make a low powered system is not that expensive, and the hardware for a high end 3d system is reasonable if you need that sort of a system.

With RED's REDCODE RAW working in 4k is now very easy and affordable and I don't see how Assimilate would lose out if they offered a dedicated REDCode Raw workstation at a price similar to the investment of the camera system.

[donatello b]

"not asking them to sell Scratch at cut rate prices - just at a price which is more in-line with RED "

it is in line with RED ... a top of the line complete RED system with master primes primes and Ang primo zooms = 250K ... or you can get a basic Red system with still primes and zooms for under 35k ...

so basic system = FCS2.
it has everything you need up to 2k at a great price - it doesn't do every thing Scratch does in RT but it is alot less $$$ ... you want top of the line everything it going to cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ...

[roryhinds]

The scratch package of software at around the same cost as RED ONE body.
Then I can add what ever hardware I want to run it on.

[M Most]

The scratch package of software at around the same cost as RED ONE body.
Then I can add what ever hardware I want to run it on.

So basically, a company that's doing just fine with its current product should let you set the price for them, and the price should be based on another product that has nothing whatsoever to do with theirs other than the fact that one produces something the other can manipulate.

Scratch is an existing DI product that serves the DI industry. Red, as far as Assimilate is concerned, is really just another format they're going to support, just like DPX. Nothing in the software has changed other than the ability to import and work with another format. The existing user base - which is substantial - already uses this product for existing work that isn't about to go away simply because Red appeared. Red represents another shooting format alternative, but as far as finishing goes, the deliverables are still the same, and the working methods vis a vis conforming and color correction are still basically the same. The alliance between Assimilate and Red is great for both, because it provides a smoother path to studio quality deliverables for all existing Scratch customers. If you are an individual user of Red, and plan on finishing your own projects, you are much better off looking at Apple's tools as your solution. As has been said, they won't provide you with the speed, convenience, or number of deliverable choices as easily, but as with anything in this business or this world, there are businesses and there are individuals. The tools of business are those that can satisfy the client base quickly, efficiently, and at a high quality level. The tools of individuals are those that can do a similar job, but considerably slower (not an issue when your time is your own) and with fewer choices as far as final output (not an issue when you're only making HD video, HDDVD, or Internet deliverables). You use what's appropriate, feature wise and cost wise.

[Rob Lohman]

I'm starting to get really really confused by all of this. Guys, it's extremely simple:

1) RED's prices are RED's prices

2) Assimilate's prices are Assimilate's prices

3) If someone wants to change prices, they will. If not, they don't. No need to keep banging away at this

4) The price of Scratch doesn't change. The amount you pay for a *full* Scratch system (that includes software *AND* hardware!) changes depending on your NEEDS and budget (this can change what you need).

5) For example: if you don't need the 3D stereo module then you don't buy that module (and not pay $$$ for it). You then don't need to run two streams side by side and *also* save (and again not pay $$$ for it) on your SAN/NAS/RAID needs since you are running one stream instead of two

What is so hard about this? You simply talk to Assimilate (Lucas has given his details again and again) about what it is you want / need to do and they will tell you how much such a system with their base software plus the modules you selected and the required hardware costs.

Same thing when buying cars. Do you want the 250 or 300 bhp engine? Do you want the HD satellite radio? Do you want the 4 or 8 speaker system? Only difference is that they don't list the prices for all their modules and combinations. No need to keep asking for this either since they've decided not to do this but use a more personal approach and talk WITH you what you actually NEED. This is actually great since they can explain exactly what each module does and help you decide on what you need. Great (imho)!

Personally I think it's time to close this thread. A bunch of people (Lucas, me and mmost for example) have tried to explain it over and over again. Others still don't seem to get it or want something different. We just keep rehashing the same stuff again and again.

For the latter group take a look at the list posted earlier in this thread or get the "cheaper" products for which you can get a list price: After Effects, Shake, Color, Combustion etc. etc.

If you're interested in Scratch then simply send Lucas an e-mail and you'll find out soon enough which modules you need/want and what the total price will be. But don't expect Color/Shake/FCS2 prices, that's not realistic for such a product (does 4K for one).

[M Most]

I'm starting to get really really confused by all of this. Guys, it's extremely simple:We just keep rehashing the same stuff again and again.

Thank you for this, Rob. I completely agree.

[Kevin Halverson]

I contacted Lucas by email about an upcoming need that I have where SCRATCH may be the solution. We have exchanged a number of emails and have set up an appointment for when I am back in LA with my producer to see a demo and discuss our needs. I don't see any problem at all with the process, its very straight forward and very business like.

Highly configurable solutions don't lend themselves to box stock pricing structures. Seems only logical to me.

[Joel Kaye]

Same thing when buying cars.

GREAT analogy. Except cars have a base sticker price.

You can get on the Internet and figure out a Miata is less than a Ferrari. If I gotta make a phone to figure out whether we're talking Miata's or Lamborghini's something's wrong.

Then you start haggling... customers LOVE haggling with used car salespeople. Or you can buy a Saturn where you walk up and that's the price. It's right there on the window.

[jbeale]

I guess we all have expressed our opinions on this. I think the bottom line is- if you don't like how anyone does business- you don't have to do business with them.

[Kevin Halverson]

GREAT analogy. Except cars have a base sticker price.

I am not certain that there is anything akin to a "base sticker price" in this situation. It is all a la carte from what I can tell and there are a lot of permutations.