RED RAY PRO PLAYER - 4K server - ALIVE!! [Archive]

Mark L. Pederson

04-15-2010, 08:53 AM

After everyone left the RED DAY / Reduser Party Vegas 2010 last night - Jim invited a few of us to into the main presentation room for a special treat.

We got see a working unit of the RED RAY PRO PLAYER - plugged directly into the Sony 4K projector - power up and play the RED Mysterium-X reel in full 4K onto the big screen!

I own a Dolby server and we screen 2K DCPs constantly at OFFHOLLYWOOD and I have to say .... the writing is on the wall.

I don't think I can really say anything else - except - specs and features are amazing and much more powerful and WAY BEYOND current DCP servers - and of course .... YES to 3D.

Mark my words - EVERY THEATRE with a 4K projector is going to have one of these 4K servers.

Blair S. Paulsen

04-15-2010, 08:56 AM

One more link in the chain.

Cheers - #19

PatrickW

04-15-2010, 08:57 AM

Sweet news, can't wait to see one of these puppies in action.

One more link in the chain.

Cheers - #19

Cameras, lens, lights, media servers... that is a badass chain.

Jay Gannon

04-15-2010, 09:07 AM

I have to say its one of the things that excite me just as much as Epic. A real game changer for a lot of people.

Sanjin Jukic

04-15-2010, 09:15 AM

Great news Mark!!!

Elsie N

04-15-2010, 09:27 AM

Better RED than (projecting with) the dead.

This is why they call them movies... cause everything is (will be) moveable?

Adam Jeal

04-15-2010, 10:01 AM

James Kirst

04-15-2010, 12:28 PM

YES!!!!!!!!

been beating my head against a clipster for the past day making a DCP for someone....

in other news is CROPSEY 4K?

Steven Caesare

04-15-2010, 12:36 PM

The exhibition market (both public and private) has to be several orders of magnitude larger than the acquisition market.

I suspect that Red Ray Pro (and it's smaller sibling) have the potential to even larger impact technologies than the cameras.

Bring it!

-sc

Mark L. Pederson

04-15-2010, 12:41 PM

in other news is CROPSEY 4K?

I wish! Very happy Cropsey just got a limited theatrical release - but that doc was actually shot on SD & HD - before RED ONE shipped cameras. Just goes to show you how long it can take to get a release - future proofing by shooting in 4K + is rather logical ...

Jay Gannon

04-15-2010, 12:58 PM

Any news of rough pricing? even low/high 4 figures or 5 figures info would be good.

Curran Giddens

04-15-2010, 01:07 PM

Any news of rough pricing? even low/high 4 figures or 5 figures info would be good.

I know it isn't $1K. That was the price of the standard player.

But is it over $5K? If it is over $8K then I'm not interested as much...

Joseph Hutson

04-15-2010, 01:08 PM

I saw you guys over there like 50 feet from me as I was in the hall. I wish I would have been nosy enough as usual to join you all. :banghead:

Jay Gannon

04-15-2010, 01:20 PM

Comparitivly I'll be happy if its under 40k

David Rasberry

04-15-2010, 01:36 PM

Joseph Hutson

04-15-2010, 01:40 PM

You could not tell a difference on the HUGE screen.

I thought people were hyping it up a bit too much, but it was like looking through a window almost. I can't image 5K in 3D...

bradvr

04-15-2010, 05:01 PM

EVERY THEATRE with a 4K projector is going to have one of these 4K servers.

Making high quality, affordable distribution in 4K will (should) make folks with 1080 acquisition as the end product a bit concerned. Kudos to RED for thinking and following through with the entire process - acquisition through distribution.

M Most

04-15-2010, 08:47 PM

I don't think I can really say anything else - except - specs and features are amazing and much more powerful and WAY BEYOND current DCP servers - and of course .... YES to 3D.

Mark my words - EVERY THEATRE with a 4K projector is going to have one of these 4K servers.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, and I'm sure it works quite nicely, but.....

Does it support the industry standard FIPS 140-2 based encryption methods? Is it based on open source components? Will Red make the codec non-proprietary? You know, just as I do, that the DCP format is what it is because the industry as a whole - and that means all of the players that basically control theatrical distribution worldwide - decided on very specific guidelines for a digital distribution package that included all of the things I've just mentioned, and they did that for a number of good reasons. It's never been about the lowest data rate, the lowest price, or even the best possible quality. It's been about security, open development, not using proprietary formats at any level, and defining things like color space in a way that is not restrictive and allows for future development and improvement as display methods change. That's why the essence container is MXF (and not Quicktime), it's why the CPL, Packing List, Asset Map, and Volume Index are all XML files (rather than some new proprietary format), it's why the color space is defined in XYZ coordinates (rather than RGB or YUV), and it's why the entire encryption and key delivery system is based on published government security standards. For "every theater with a 4K projector" to be able to deal with the major distributors, Red will need to present their system for DCI and SMPTE approval, and to get that, they will need to meet all of the criteria I just outlined. I'm not being negative here, I've also been impressed with where they seem to be going with this. But it doesn't matter if they don't meet the criteria that the industry has already adopted. This isn't a new market they're trying to sell to, as it was with their cameras. This is an established system that is already in place and supported by those who feed it. I think there are a lot of uses and venues for a well done, efficient, proprietary format server that can handle high resolution footage. I just don't think theatrical distribution and exhibition of motion pictures from major distributors is one of them, because that ship has already sailed.

Oh, and you and I also know that the DCP format already supports 4K and has since the beginning. Not all servers do, but that's more a matter of interfaces than it is software.

JD Holloway

04-15-2010, 09:39 PM

Very good points.

Then there is the other route? Put a couple of hundred thousand out in private hands, starting with Redusers, then small indy theatres and post houses, then "the enthusist"... and provide content to an audience. See where it goes.
With IP on demand content, broadcast standards are starting to lose their significance IMHO.

Someone once said "there's a world market for only 5 computers".

Steven Caesare

04-16-2010, 06:54 AM

Mike-

I'm sure those are all valid points, however I'd point out that Mark didn't say that the Red Ray PRO was going to DISPLACE existing DCP infrastructure (at least immediately), rather he said that every theater with a 4K projector will HAVE one of these. If the cost of entry for one of these things is $8K, it's simply a no-brainer.

Cinemas like to use their auditoriums for coporpate events, sell advertising to local vendors, etc... Additionally, some smaller distibutors may opt to forego the hassle and cost of creating DCP compliant packages if what Red Ray PRO provides is a sufficient equivilence of functionality (i.e. color space, XML playlist/asset functionality, etc...) at a fraction of the equipment/autohring cost... especially if the vastly lower bitrates allow for ease of distribution not possible with DCP.

There's no reason that a theater can't have both playback mechanisms installed.

Now who knows what will happen in the future when there's sufficient installed base of RRP's such that customers can be assured they can distribute their exhibition on either format without penalty. There are MANY standards designed by committee that, while complete, are unwieldly to implement and are ultimately abandoned when something else more practical comes along.

-sc

M Most

04-16-2010, 07:53 AM

Cinemas like to use their auditoriums for coporpate events, sell advertising to local vendors, etc... Additionally, some smaller distibutors may opt to forego the hassle and cost of creating DCP compliant packages if what Red Ray PRO provides is a sufficient equivilence of functionality (i.e. color space, XML playlist/asset functionality, etc...) at a fraction of the equipment/autohring cost... especially if the vastly lower bitrates allow for ease of distribution not possible with DCP.

Hence why I said that there are a number of uses other than motion pictures distributed by major distributors. However, I would also point out that live events are one of the main secondary uses of theaters - the Metropolitan Opera, sports events, corporate teleconferences, etc., as well as "pre-show" material. The likelihood of any of these things requiring or even being available in anything other than HD video is rather small, at least for the next few years. That's why just about every auditorium already has an HD projector that they use now for this purpose. The main use of the Red server that I can see would be for private, one-off rental screenings by indies, where security isn't an issue and it's something many theaters will currently do already. If the box is cheap enough, it could find placement in those venues.

But I think Mark really meant what I responded to in the first post...

Meryem Ersoz

04-16-2010, 08:30 AM

Actually, if Jim can find a way to work with Mark Cuban, or someone like him, who owns an established theater chain and has a futurist mindset and passion for gadgetry, then I am betting industry transformation could happen sooner than later...

...in fact, my suspicion is that Jim wouldn't be dropping hints about why he believes "the future is 4K" unless he already had such an alliance. That RED RAY in the case at the RED user party looked pretty ready for prime time, but I'm guessing there is some behind-the-scenes maneuvering that will accompany its announcement. There will be a champion for this technology as well, like Jackson and Soderbergh were to RED ONE, only in the distribution chain.

I think Jim learned a lesson about doing things outside of industry standards with RED ONE. RED has learned how to integrate a lot of innovative thinking into a camera system that will work well with others. I think the "do it for the little guy and the big guys will follow" model has been flipped on its head, now that Jim's ability to deliver is proven and he is closer to the ear of the top of the food chain. Instead, it's "do it at the highest possible levels and deliver it to everybody." At standards that exceed what is currently possible but integrate industry needs.

...Mike Most always shines a light on what those needs are...I always enjoy the education...

Mark L. Pederson

04-16-2010, 08:33 AM

I just don't think theatrical distribution and exhibition of motion pictures from major distributors is one of them, because that ship has already sailed.

LOL!!

You are wrong.

If there is a better ship, with BETTER security, with more features, with higher image quality and at a better price point - the dominos will fall. Maybe some dominos have already fallen and nobody knows about it yet ...?

Oh, and you and I also know that the DCP format already supports 4K and has since the beginning. Not all servers do, but that's more a matter of interfaces than it is software.

Yes I do - I make 2K and 4K DCPs - and I am actually a huge fan of DCPs - I've delivered them directly to theaters for theatrical releases. So, I'm very aware of all the advantages that DCPs offer - so I'm pretty damn qualified to see advantages in another product. And Mike .... between us chickens - this is the real deal.

I'll let RED speak to features of their unreleased products - that's not my place and I consider myself privileged to have early access. Suffice to say ... RED is a bigger company that it was even six months ago. They CONTINUE to expand their team with dynamic, brilliant engineers - and they are playing for keeps.

Meryem Ersoz

04-16-2010, 10:29 AM

LOL!!

Maybe some dominos have already fallen and nobody knows about it yet ...?

That's exactly what I think - the continued assertion at the RED event that "4K is the future" seemed to come from a place of knowledge, not hope, as if something unseen to the rest of us is already a done deal...

That was probably my biggest excitement at the RED event - not what was displayed but the subtle but clear hints regarding delivery and that RED RAY in the box that nobody talked about - but clearly seemed pretty ready to go, unlike its previous publicly displayed incarnations.

Joseph Hutson

04-16-2010, 10:38 AM

For photos, here they are...

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs065.snc3/13313_1339779187442_1620030223_814204_8265010_n.jp g
http://hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/hs065.snc3/13313_1339779347446_1620030223_814205_1341478_n.jp ghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs065.snc3/13313_1339779507450_1620030223_814206_4365122_n.jp ghttp://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs065.snc3/13313_1339779587452_1620030223_814207_4375521_n.jp ghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs045.snc3/13313_1339779787457_1620030223_814209_6781866_n.jp ghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs045.snc3/13313_1339779107440_1620030223_814203_4958739_n.jp ghttp://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs045.snc3/13313_1339778827433_1620030223_814200_5858140_n.jp g

More pics at my Facebook...

M Most

04-16-2010, 11:13 AM

LOL!!

You are wrong. .

Not yet, I'm not.

Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Neither of us live in the future. I don't make pronouncements until things are fact. And right now, the fact is that the DCP system is the current and established distribution standard, deeply entrenched, universally supported, and completely proven. Neither one of us know if or whether that can or will change, regardless of how much Red might want it to.

As I said, time will tell.

Mark L. Pederson

04-16-2010, 11:46 AM

Not yet, I'm not.

Just keep saying that. Things change Mike.

"Current and established standard" ..... is the antithesis of technological developments.

Several "current and established standards" include mechanical hard drives, Flash, and shooting motion picture film on episodic television.

Someone has to be enthusiastic about the future. The future gets me out of bed in the morning. I like to speak enthusiastically about technology based industry change - what I believe in - because too many people are threatened by change.

I embrace it.

Steven Caesare

04-16-2010, 11:56 AM

The likelihood of any of these things requiring or even being available in anything other than HD video is rather small, at least for the next few years....

What we really need is an inexpensive 4K+ acquisition, editing, and mastering pipeline... too bad nothin.... HEY WAIT!
:sifone:

But I think Mark really meant what I responded to in the first post...

Perhaps so, but I suspect that there may be some compelling reasons that a significantly cheaper, yet as fully functional, alternative might cause even some of the "big boys" to find some significant usage for it.

-sc

Mark L. Pederson

04-16-2010, 12:01 PM

Neither of us live in the future.

Do you have kids? Then you live in the future.

M Most

04-16-2010, 01:22 PM

"Current and established standard" ..... is the antithesis of technological developments.

Only if that standard is designed around closed, proprietary formats and didn't take into account the ability to accommodate wider color spaces and different resolutions. The DCP is not in that category. I don't know about Red Ray...

Someone has to be enthusiastic about the future. The future gets me out of bed in the morning. I like to speak enthusiastically about technology based industry change - what I believe in - because too many people are threatened by change.

I embrace it.

And you know I do too. I've never been "threatened by change," in fact, I've been an implementer of change for most of my career. Being enthusiastic about the future doesn't mean one company has a monopoly on it. And it doesn't mean that already forward thinking standards that were designed to accommodate future developments are already outdated. It's one thing to be enthusiastic, it's another to be dismissive of things that are already in place and working simply because they're already in place and working. I look at things, evaluate them, and form opinions based on what I see, as do you. But there's a lot more to getting industry wide acceptance for a standard than simply declaring your own product to be the new standard. And there's a lot more to DCP's than just effective compression. As for right or wrong, these are terms that shouldn't be used in this context. There's what is and what isn't, and what will be accepted and what won't. What you and I (and, quite frankly, Red) think doesn't really matter other than as a fun game of conjecture.

M Most

04-16-2010, 01:24 PM

Perhaps so, but I suspect that there may be some compelling reasons that a significantly cheaper, yet as fully functional, alternative might cause even some of the "big boys" to find some significant usage for it.

You can buy a DCP server for under $15K, you can build one yourself for less than that, and the tools for making DCP's run the gamut from full, JPEG2000 accelerated systems down to open source tools that are free.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with cost.

Steven Caesare

04-16-2010, 03:07 PM

You can buy a DCP server for under $15K, you can build one yourself for less than that, and the tools for making DCP's run the gamut from full, JPEG2000 accelerated systems down to open source tools that are free.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with cost.

A 4K DCP server for under $15K? hardware and software, ready to go? With enough storage to hold a feature-length film and the requisite output cards to drive 4K projectors? I've not priced them, but had not been under the impression they were that inexpensive.

There's a thread here on Reduser that, if that poster's experience is anything near typical, indicates the "freely avialable tools" route is anything but straightforward.

-sc

M Most

04-16-2010, 03:19 PM

A 4K DCP server for under $15K? hardware and software, ready to go? With enough storage to hold a feature-length film and the requisite output cards to drive 4K projectors? I've not priced them, but had not been under the impression they were that inexpensive.

There's a thread here on Reduser that, if that poster's experience is anything near typical, indicates the "freely avialable tools" route is anything but straightforward.

I didn't say it was straightforward, or that you didn't have to know what you're doing. I said it wasn't about cost. Quite frankly, in the professional world, it's not a requirement that everything be simple enough for a child to do it. It's generally assumed that people doing this level of work understand it. I don't think that's asking a lot.

As for storage requirements, a typical DCP is under 150GB. At today's storage prices, that's not very demanding in terms of either hardware or its cost.

Jody Neckles

04-16-2010, 03:38 PM

I was at RED in OC in December. I also was lucky enough to see 4K material projected from a RED Ray at 15mb/s.... The images were mind blowing.

It occurred to me RED is much more than just a camera company..... just think about what can be done with a 15mb/s data stream.... certainly I believe the biggest shockwaves are still to come and i'm betting its got nothing to do with cameras.....

Deanan

04-16-2010, 03:55 PM

What you and I (and, quite frankly, Red) think doesn't really matter other than as a fun game of conjecture.

Not conjecture but actively participating and driving change... along many others that we work with from studios/post/directors/DPs/distributors/manufacturers that are pushing 4k into real projects.

A good analogy is how top athletes anticipate and act on where they need to be rather than act solely in the present.

Steven Caesare

04-16-2010, 04:11 PM

I didn't say it was straightforward, or that you didn't have to know what you're doing. I said it wasn't about cost. Quite frankly, in the professional world, it's not a requirement that everything be simple enough for a child to do it. It's generally assumed that people doing this level of work understand it. I don't think that's asking a lot.

As for storage requirements, a typical DCP is under 150GB. At today's storage prices, that's not very demanding in terms of either hardware or its cost.

I'm not suggesting it need be easy enough for a child to understand it. But clearly there is a cost and time (and time is money) associated with high-end distibution today, and if something comes along that is simpler/cheaper yet provides the functionality necessary, it often supplants the more expensive/cumbersome predecessor. Or at least finds a home right along side it.

Do you have a link for a sub $15K DCP server that does 4K? I've done some online searching, but haven't found one.

-sc

Scott Snare

04-16-2010, 04:16 PM

A device like this will be a game changer for the festival marketplace. Having high quality delivery on a portable device will reduce costs for both the film maker and the festival. Both want high quality, low costs and flexible presentation alternatives.

Tim Whitcomb

04-16-2010, 07:19 PM

Suffice to say ... RED is a bigger company that it was even six months ago. They CONTINUE to expand their team with dynamic, brilliant engineers - and they are playing for keeps.

fuck yeah man. 4K digital distro is where its at fo shizzle.

Mike, please think about it from the EXHIBITORS mindset for one second.

The experience is all about the sizzle brother. Especially if it brings more peeps and lets me sell more $5 cokes and $5 popcorns...know what Im saying?

right now its 3D,

But next is 4K is where my $ is riding and the shit (even Arri) is getting cheaper

Rock on

Jason Diamond

04-16-2010, 07:23 PM

Do you have kids? Then you live in the future.

Regardless of technology this is one of the truest statements I've heard in along time.

I live in the future every day... The history of the future is on the wall.

M Most

04-16-2010, 08:07 PM

Not conjecture but actively participating and driving change... along many others that we work with from studios/post/directors/DPs/distributors/manufacturers that are pushing 4k into real projects.

I understand, and I applaud the effort. However, allow me to ask the question(s): Is Red prepared to open source their codec? Does the system handle any current or future color space? Is the security model based on open, documented standards? Because quite frankly, I just don't see the DCI consortium members going for anything controlled by only one company, or anything that isn't completely documented in freely available documentation.

I have no problem with pushing things forward. But quite frankly, the current format already supports what you seem to pushing for, and it fulfills all of the criteria I just mentioned. If I'm wrong, I'd really like to know where.

M Most

04-16-2010, 08:14 PM

Mike, please think about it from the EXHIBITORS mindset for one second.

The experience is all about the sizzle brother. Especially if it brings more peeps and lets me sell more $5 cokes and $5 popcorns...know what Im saying?

right now its 3D,

But next is 4K is where my $ is riding and the shit (even Arri) is getting cheaper

Well, if I look at it from the exhibitor's point of view, I'm looking for what puts more people in the seats. In every study that I've seen - and I've looked at a lot of them - I don't recall seeing any evidence at all that 4K projection attracts more viewers than 2K projection. In fact, most of the studies have shown that digital projection in general doesn't really put more people in the seats (vs. film projection). Most viewers seem to like it, but in the end, they seem to go to whatever theater is the most convenient for them to see the movie they want to see, regardless of the projection method used. Besides, the real reason for the push to digital projection is to eliminate physical film manufacture and distribution. Giving the viewing public a better experience is not the primary motivating factor. Saving distribution costs is.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I've yet to see any real evidence that 4K is in itself any kind of driver for theater goers. However, there is a hell of a lot of evidence that 3D is. And I would remind you that to this point in time, there is no 4K 3D. But as always, everyone is certainly free to believe whatever they want to believe and draw their own conclusions. Including you and me.

Tim Whitcomb

04-16-2010, 08:18 PM

M Most

04-16-2010, 08:27 PM

You keep talking about today, but everyone else on this thread is talking about tomorrow.

I don't see how that changes what I just said in the least. And I really don't see why theatergoers' opinions would change simply because of what year it is. But, as I said, everyone is free to have their own opinion.

Steven Caesare

04-16-2010, 08:38 PM

Well, if I look at it from the exhibitor's point of view, I'm looking for what puts more people in the seats. In every study that I've seen - and I've looked at a lot of them - I don't recall seeing any evidence at all that 4K projection attracts more viewers than 2K projection. In fact, most of the studies have shown that digital projection in general doesn't really put more people in the seats (vs. film projection). Most viewers seem to like it, but in the end, they seem to go to whatever theater is the most convenient for them to see the movie they want to see, regardless of the projection method used. Besides, the real reason for the push to digital projection is to eliminate physical film manufacture and distribution. Giving the viewing public a better experience is not the primary motivating factor. Saving distribution costs is.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I've yet to see any real evidence that 4K is in itself any kind of driver for theater goers. However, there is a hell of a lot of evidence that 3D is. And I would remind you that to this point in time, there is no 4K 3D. But as always, everyone is certainly free to believe whatever they want to believe and draw their own conclusions. Including you and me.

Oooh, I dunno about that.

What 4K major exhibitions have been distributed to cinemas with 4K projection equipment to really even gauge that? Zero, I think.

But I will tell you this, for The Dark Knight, there was a definite interest amongst peole I know to see it in IMax, and they knew that only a subset of the movie was truly Imax format... but it represented a premium experience.

People in my area seek theaters with digital projection, and will buy tickets based on getting in to an auditorium equipped as such.

Online ticket service advertise the show times that are in digital.

For Avatar, people I know saught specific theaters based on the type of 3D systems they had installed (RealD, etc...).

I suspect that a theater that advertises "This showtime presented in 4K Digital High Definition!" for the shows in their new Sony SXRD 220 equipped auditorium is going to be able to draw people based on that alone, and perhaps even command a premium to do so.

-sc

PS- Any luck with a pointer for that DCP server you mentioned? Thanks.

Meryem Ersoz

04-16-2010, 08:49 PM

However, there is a hell of a lot of evidence that 3D is.

And how many generations passed before we could make that statement and mean it? No watched "Ghosts of the Abyss" and yet everyone and their brother has been to "Avatar" -- many repeatedly, and the 3D example is exactly proof that things do change with the right convergence of better technology, a substantial amount of money persuasively thrown behind producing and selling it, and the ineffable zeitgeist.

There is big money behind 3D (now there is, but certainly this is a recent phenomenon), and I would say that 4K also requires some big backing from a champion who believes in the technology, who believes that relatively inexpensive, high quality projection actually will put butts in seats, who stands to gain financially by persuasively making this argument.

No one said it was going to be easy or immediate - but certainly the idea of RED RAY and its ability to make a single master and transcode and deliver in real time to any format, using the same machine (RED RAY PRO or RED RAY for the consumer) whether at home or in a theater, could represent a substantial savings worthy of a look. Simplicity and efficiency and a streamlined delivery process seem like the attraction of RED RAY - not just 4K itself. RED RAY applications are not limited to theatrical - that's the beauty of the system, as I understand it. I'm sure it has evolved a great deal and look forward to hearing more from RED. They are suspiciously mum about it, and yet they had that great-looking RED RAY box on display but not a word about it - something's up!

Deanan

04-16-2010, 11:31 PM

I understand, and I applaud the effort. However, allow me to ask the question(s): Is Red prepared to open source their codec? Does the system handle any current or future color space? Is the security model based on open, documented standards? Because quite frankly, I just don't see the DCI consortium members going for anything controlled by only one company, or anything that isn't completely documented in freely available documentation.

I have no problem with pushing things forward. But quite frankly, the current format already supports what you seem to pushing for, and it fulfills all of the criteria I just mentioned. If I'm wrong, I'd really like to know where.

The DCI market is a smaller subset of what we're targeting. While DCI is great for many many reasons, there are disadvantages that we believe are worth addressing differently and that's the intention of REDray.

I can't go into specific answers regarding your questions but it would be good to discuss them when we are able to in public.

David Limpus

04-16-2010, 11:44 PM

So closed captions is possible from REDray and frame accurate automation control?

M Most

04-16-2010, 11:53 PM

The DCI market is a smaller subset of what we're targeting. While DCI is great for many many reasons, there are disadvantages that we believe are worth addressing differently and that's the intention of REDray.

That sounds sensible.

I can't go into specific answers regarding your questions but it would be good to discuss them when we are able to in public.

I look forward to the discussion. Maybe over lunch sometime soon.

Deanan

04-17-2010, 12:42 AM

That sounds sensible.
I look forward to the discussion. Maybe over lunch sometime soon.

Definitely lunch :)

Shane Betts

04-17-2010, 07:21 AM

See signature...

Vincent Rice

04-17-2010, 08:45 AM

Great discussion guys. I can see both sides of this having been (peripherally) involved in the exhibition side in Europe for twenty years. It's correct that the DCI consortium and SMPTE will simply not change ships at this point in time. It took long enough to agree in the first place! That is not how disruptive change occurs however. I can see RR being installed in a much larger range of venues and situations (my own interest is DS/DOOH) where security is less of an issue and the possibility of squirting 4K programme via broadband is a win. There is then a real possibility of RR becoming a de facto standard for advertising, indie festivals, independent exhibitor chains, business presentations etc., and the DCIC having to come to terms with it at some point in the future.

I am very pleased to hear of the progress on the RedRay players. Hopefully at some point we could have a public meeting(s) to really discuss the ramifications, away from the camera related stuff.

Elsie N

04-17-2010, 09:19 AM

We have become such a niche society in regard to TV/cable/satellite programming, where everyone gets their entertainment their way. It seems up 'til now that mainstream movies have been bound to brick and mortar theaters.

I can see Red 4k making it possible to create the theater experience anywhere it has a market, and thus connecting the niche movie-maker with his or her audience. And just like there's room for a brick and mortar Starbucks, there is also a place for the coffee wagon that sells to a different customer. Still, Starbucks IS losing business in this cost-conscious new normal to other coffee providers... and that has caused Starbucks to change its own business model.

Shawn Nelson

04-17-2010, 12:03 PM

ah man, that's what you guys were doing in there! Andrew (#127) and I were still at the party wondering what was going on in the screening room. I'd have loved to have seen that, maybe next year it'll be shipping?

Jonas Rejman

04-17-2010, 12:50 PM

It may be, that RED is ultimately going to become a media creation, media tools and also media delivering company.

It seems that they will shoot movies in their own studios, on their own cameras and will deliver them in their own format on their own servers, projected eventually on their own projectors.

Because they will not distinguish between "pro" and "consumer" per say, there will be a huge volume to sell any of those products, because the mass-production and the integrity of the system will make unbeatable pricing.

The way how you can configure everything however you want makes you trust the company, and you spend happy more money. Not lastly, because there is a record of features in future for free, and most important of all, those guys USE their stuff, and LISTEN to what the customers long for.

With RED, you will now, that the stuff will work. RED is a guarantee for excellent quality for incredible pricing. Sure, there will always be some snorting, as what is "that cheap" cannot be "that good", but this will not interest anyone who is in for scarlets.

RED is the independence of high end, so to speak, allowing tools to be available to the masses. I think it is about the perfect balance of high-end quality and masses. And the masses are where the money lies.

Jim so knows what he is doing.

Christian Berg

04-17-2010, 11:11 PM

I work for a cinema company that is going digital in the near future. We already run the advertisement digitally in full HD and have tried for the last 3 years to get distributors to show trailers in our system. Since it´s not DCI compliant they refuse to run the trailers. The smaller, local companies (independent) run their trailers, but not the big ones. Hollywood is holding them back on this. Everything would be easier, cheaper, more secure and just run better. Making them change is not an easy task. I think that if Red Ray would have DCI support it would be a no brainer for theaters to install them. Be able to run normal DCP features along with trailers and advertisement in Reds distribution format would be awesome. I could easily get our company to by a couple of hundred. But not being able to run DCPs makes it a lot harder since we would still need two systems. Sorry to say, DCPs are here to stay for a while. But if RED can get the big studios to use their distribution format it would be great. On the other hand it seems to be a great player.

M Most

04-17-2010, 11:15 PM

I think that if Red Ray would have DCI support it would be a no brainer for theaters to install them.

Based on Deanan's comment, that might be the case. I'm not saying that it is, but it is possible, and to my mind, a good idea. Which is one reason why I'm looking forward to the promised lunch conversation....

Mohammed El Sharqawy

04-19-2010, 01:02 AM

What about the RED DISTRIBUTION FORMAT??? and (non-PRO) RED RAY??
Will we be able to put 4K on DVD media? or will there be a standard RED 4K DVD format?

Stephen Gentle

04-19-2010, 05:32 AM

I was saying to Joseph that RED should team up with Apple to get their chip in the Apple TV. Apple has deals with a lot of studios and a distribution network already in place. And having RED 4K movies on the iTunes store would be great for them - imagine being able to give your customers image quality that's better than Blu-Ray on 1080p now, and 4K in the future without having to pay more or download a bigger version!

Or perhaps RED could just do it themselves. But a consumer version of RED RAY could really blow Blu-Ray out of the water.

Steven Caesare

04-19-2010, 07:30 AM

Or perhaps RED could just do it themselves. But a consumer version of RED RAY could really blow Blu-Ray out of the water.

A consumer version of Red4K (aka RedRay)has been not only announced, but is what was talked about first, before the Pro version came along:

http://red.cachefly.net/nab/red_4k_red_ray_hero.png

Here's what Jarred had to say about in back on the 11/30 update announcement thread:

We haven't said much about RED RAY in the last couple months, but there definitely has been alot of development happening. With feedback from our partners and many of you, we have moved the RED RAY PRO ahead of RED RAY Consumer....

We haven't heard anything to indicate it's not still in the works...

-sc

Stephen Gentle

04-19-2010, 03:34 PM

A consumer version of Red4K (aka RedRay)has been not only announced, but is what was talked about first, before the Pro version came along

It was more about a distribution network I was talking about RED rolling out - I certainly remember that model.

It would be cool to have an online store that you could access on the device and download movies onto an inbuilt drive, and I think RED could save a lot of trouble by teaming up with an already established player to licence their decoding/scaling chips and codec.

Chad Clemans

04-24-2010, 12:37 PM

certainly the idea of RED RAY and its ability to make a single master and transcode and deliver in real time to any format, using the same machine (RED RAY PRO or RED RAY for the consumer) whether at home or in a theater, could represent a substantial savings worthy of a look...RED RAY applications are not limited to theatrical - that's the beauty of the system, as I understand it.

I agree.

I don't know which "partners" RED eluded to when they mentioned they had received feedback causing them to move REDray Pro ahead of REDray Consumer, but I'm guessing those "partners" are thinking they'd like to be able to distribute to theaters, and then homes afterwards, without ever needing to move the masters. That seems like a cost savings too large to pass up, and furthermore can put distributors in a position to cut out the middle-men (disintermediation) like perhaps rental houses, redbox, netflix, onDemand, etc, thus increasing their own profits from being able to sell directly, but also removing the large legal cost of negotiating with secondary markets the selling rights of each film that gets made.

Whether REDray plays nice with DCI is obviously an issue, as was mentioned; however, I suspect the ultra-low bandwidth requirements of REDray is enough of an eyebrow raiser to warrant some negotiations at the big table.

M Most

04-24-2010, 02:05 PM

Whether REDray plays nice with DCI is obviously an issue, as was mentioned; however, I suspect the ultra-low bandwidth requirements of REDray is enough of an eyebrow raiser to warrant some negotiations at the big table.

Only if they're willing to open the codec and implement an acceptable security scheme (i.e., conforming to some accepted standard).

Tim Whitcomb

04-25-2010, 02:16 PM

Only if they're willing to open the codec and implement an acceptable security scheme (i.e., conforming to some accepted standard).

You don't really believe they invested all that research and engineering without doing their homework do you?

Guess you will find out at lunch with Deanan:)

Meantime Im guessing they (RED) were smart enough to understand the market they were entering and trying to disrupt, especially as we have come a long way since that 2002 initiative began and since 2005 when it was implemented.

Tim Hole

04-29-2010, 07:53 AM

Only if they're willing to open the codec and implement an acceptable security scheme (i.e., conforming to some accepted standard).

Which to be honest are becoming more and more lax as time goes on. For example films used to be sent out on drives that would only be able to be used on the one projector, this would be followed by a key (sent by recorded delivery on a flash stick). Now the drives are sent out and can be transfered to the drive on as many projectors as you want. The key is still time locked and each key is projector specific, except now they don't send the key they are emailed as a zip file that you put onto a flash stick. How long before someone figures out how to hack them?