2 Months is relative

[Sterling Wescott]

We were told Scarlet is two months behind.
Did anyone in vegas find out what 2 months actually means? Of course it means 2 months, but two months from what? Tattoo? Stage 2? Stage 3? Stage 4?
I hate to rehash the "When Is Scarlet Out" discussion. But I think this is a legitimate question.

[jimhare]

The best policy is to let the info wash over you, but don't try to make specific plans, you will only be disappointed if you do.

If I were to guess I would say Scarlett is somewhere between November and February sometime.

[Stephen Gentle]

We were told Scarlet is two months behind.
Did anyone in vegas find out what 2 months actually means? Of course it means 2 months, but two months from what? Tattoo? Stage 2? Stage 3? Stage 4?

I think they're talking about what stage of development it is in. Judging by the recon posts, Epic prototypes have only been working and shooting for between two weeks and a month. So perhaps Scarlet prototypes will start going somewhere from a month to a month and a half from now.

Joseph's estimate (posted in the 'will there ever be a Scarlet thread' sounds pretty likely to me:

Tattoo in May.

Stage 2 in June/July

Scarlet in August/September

Stage 3 around same time as Scarlet

Stage 4 November/December after M-X upgrades are finished

S35 Scarlet December/January[/I]

[Justin O'Neill]

Joseph's estimate (posted in the 'will there ever be a Scarlet thread' sounds pretty likely to me:

The numbers Joseph posted do not match up with what RED has been saying on here and what multiple RED people were saying at RED Day. We know they are aiming to start "Tattoo" by May and RED has stated many times that they want to get this right and will likely spend 2 - 3 months beta testing. That would put Epix-X stage 2 in July or August. The wording RED has used suggests Scarlet will be ready two months after stage 2 starts so likely Sep. or Oct.

Keep in mind this is all speculation and RED themselves can't know how the "Tattoo" beta test will go. It could be a lot shorter or way longer. I have not heard anyone at RED suggest stage 2 could start as early as June, however.

[Florian Stadler]

summer 2009

[Brad Webb]

summer 2009

Great Scott! You mean I have to invent a time machine to get a Scarlet?

Any one got some Plutonium, a DeLorean, and Michael J. Fox?

[NEIL ANDREW BATES]

Ask JJ. Jarred recently recounted an anecdote about Jim being a challenge to find unusual Christmas prezzies for so i wouldn't bet against it

[Subhadip Sen]

We don't really have a Stage-wise schedule for Scarlet. Considering the first Tattoos go out in May, it would mean the first production-worthy Scarlets will roll out in July. Beyond that, we don't really know if there will be a Tattoo-style testing period, or internal testing. We don't know if the Red One customers will get priority, etc. So, there are a lot of variables. But I am going to guess the first production release of the final Scarlet 2/3" is going to be about September-October. If that's a worldwide widespread release, all good and well. If not, then it will be the Red One owners getting the first priority. Do note that Scarlets will be mass produced, so there shouldn't be months lapsing in between. I think the Scarlet 2/3" will most definitely make 2010, barring major changes.

[Jim Retar]

I'm not sure they will roll out Scarlet while R1 owners are waiting for their stage 2/3 Epics... It doesn't seem in line with their philosophy of rewarding R1 buyers.

I think the everyman, who was out of the R1 loop will be waiting for some time yet.

Scarlet to be released the same day as Epic stage 4.... my guess... dec 10/ jan 11

[David Rasberry]

Jim has said the Scarlet program is running parallel to the Epic program on its own schedule and that it will ship when ready. Epic will not hold it up. It has been affected by the ASIC delay, but the fact that Epic prototypes are working and have been quietly used in the field for more than a month means they are past that stage. There is no reason for Epic roll out to delay the 2/3" Scarlet at all. There may be some delay for S35 as it shares the same sensor with Epic and I am sure they will devote the sensors to Epic until the initial rush is past. It is certainly not in Red's interest to delay Scarlet's release anymore than required to assure quality and reliability.

[NEIL ANDREW BATES]

If Scarlet and Epic were released on the same day I would be buying the scarlet because that's what i can afford. If I were a rental house or studio, I'd buy a dozen epics and think 'my god, what a steal'. I imagine an individuals budget will have far influence on which camera they decide to buy than when it's released.

[Nik Harper]

Jim has said the Scarlet program is running parallel to the Epic program on its own schedule and that it will ship when ready. Epic will not hold it up. It has been affected by the ASIC delay, but the fact that Epic prototypes are working and have been quietly used in the field for more than a month means they are past that stage. There is no reason for Epic roll out to delay the 2/3" Scarlet at all. There may be some delay for S35 as it shares the same sensor with Epic and I am sure they will devote the sensors to Epic until the initial rush is past. It is certainly not in Red's interest to delay Scarlet's release anymore than required to assure quality and reliability.

no one could have said it better haha

[J Davis]

Its seems reasonable to assume that the scarlet is a stripped down version of epic.
ie an epic with features missing for a lower price point

Now features that deal with throughput of information will be intrinsically tied to things like ASICs so it would also be reasonable to assume that the scarlets
will have a different ASIC to the epic but of a similar design.

My guess would be that a two month lag would be there to allow time for a new ASIC to be spun based on the design of the final epic ASIC

[Erik Franzén]

Also, remember that REMOVING complexity is always easier than ADDING. So dumbing down or removing features will be a lot easier than adding them.

However, as they've been run in parallel I am pretty sure they've already got everything planned for Scarlet. Just need a few months to run through the program, adjust, remove, add and finally bake :)

[Nik Harper]

Its seems reasonable to assume that the scarlet is a stripped down version of epic.
ie an epic with features missing for a lower price point

Now features that deal with throughput of information will be intrinsically tied to things like ASICs so it would also be reasonable to assume that the scarlets
will have a different ASIC to the epic but of a similar design.

My guess would be that a two month lag would be there to allow time for a new ASIC to be spun based on the design of the final epic ASIC

I remember a while ago, either Jim or Jarred said something about the biggest difference is high frame rates. Could be wrong though on the exact quote

[Michael Kontaxis]

We don't really have a Stage-wise schedule for Scarlet. Considering the first Tattoos go out in May, it would mean the first production-worthy Scarlets will roll out in July. Beyond that, we don't really know if there will be a Tattoo-style testing period, or internal testing. We don't know if the Red One customers will get priority, etc. So, there are a lot of variables. But I am going to guess the first production release of the final Scarlet 2/3" is going to be about September-October. If that's a worldwide widespread release, all good and well. If not, then it will be the Red One owners getting the first priority. Do note that Scarlets will be mass produced, so there shouldn't be months lapsing in between. I think the Scarlet 2/3" will most definitely make 2010, barring major changes.

I've been saving my money for a Scarlet for over a year now. If RED One customers, people who already have a RED in some form, get priority over customers who would be on the RED already, but can't afford anything more than a Scarlet, I will be extremely disappointed.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Ted has mentioned several times that production capacity has been increased and I remember hearing 7000 units a month. Which makes sense if Panasonic sold 240,000 HVX over two years.

Red one took almost 3 years to reach 7000 cameras - as Jim and Jarred has said over 1.7 billion times - they hav learned a lot-

Scarlet will be here - and in the meantime, have a table read and then rewrite your script . You can never stop improving your projects- nor ever have enough time to properly plan your shooting days -

cheers Scarleteers !

[Andrew Salter]

Pani and Sony are now coming into the game fast, aimed at the corporate indie market which world wise is far bigger than the movie market, in addition Pani an Sony have world wide distribution systems in place, red has none of these, Pani & Sony have many loyal customers from TV downwards. Scarlet has been promised for many release dates! as yet no camera, 2009/2010/2011!!! Pani and Sony will deliver but unless Scarlet hits the streets soon the others will absorb the scarlet market to a greater degree than expected and no way will scarlet sell in the numbers talk about on here. Don't get me wrong, l want a scarlet but now Pani and Sony are coming in to the mix, the games changing very fast.

[Terry VerHaar]

Personally and selfishly, I sort of hope a bunch of people do get wooed away by Panasonic and Sony. I am not saying that would be immediately good for RED because they will sell fewer cameras up front. However, RED is the kind of company I want to deal with and lower demand means I get my Scarlet sooner. Meanwhile, as my camera modules are more and more advanced, my firmware is continuously updated for greater capability and maybe I even have a chance to upgrade my sensor, all those Sony and Panny owners are having to buy new cameras. I might guess their loyalty to those companies and satisfaction with their cameras will fade and many might become RED customers eventually. Just my thoughts.

[David Rasberry]

Pani and Sony are now coming into the game fast, aimed at the corporate indie market which world wise is far bigger than the movie market, in addition Pani an Sony have world wide distribution systems in place, red has none of these, Pani & Sony have many loyal customers from TV downwards. Scarlet has been promised for many release dates! as yet no camera, 2009/2010/2011!!! Pani and Sony will deliver but unless Scarlet hits the streets soon the others will absorb the scarlet market to a greater degree than expected and no way will scarlet sell in the numbers talk about on here. Don't get me wrong, l want a scarlet but now Pani and Sony are coming in to the mix, the games changing very fast.

So far is isn't changing too radically. Panasonic at least is still just producing an HD video camcorder.

[Subhadip Sen]

Terry - I am confident that a crowd will get wooed by the HDDSLRs, the new Panasonic, or whatever Sony comes up with. Judging by the unprecedented adoption of HDSLRs - there are actual professionals who are picking if over a good HD camera - there will always be a crowed wooed by the "sensor size" - that is the apparent major criteria for a surprising amount of people. The likes of Panasonic and Sony will no doubt capitalize on this marketing point.

And then you have the casual crowd. They wouldn't even know what a Scarlet is. Sony and Panasonic have created a strong brand image - and it will continue to get brand loyalty from these people. You would be surprised how many wealthy people use EX1s and HVX-200s for home videos just because the smaller consumer camcorders feel too cheap.

The Scarlet will have hefty adoption over the so called "geek" crowd who do their homework and research - and importantly, are internet friendly.

[Jeremy_Sawatzky]

Personally and selfishly, I sort of hope a bunch of people do get wooed away by Panasonic and Sony. I am not saying that would be immediately good for RED because they will sell fewer cameras up front. However, RED is the kind of company I want to deal with and lower demand means I get my Scarlet sooner. Meanwhile, as my camera modules are more and more advanced, my firmware is continuously updated for greater capability and maybe I even have a chance to upgrade my sensor, all those Sony and Panny owners are having to buy new cameras. I might guess their loyalty to those companies and satisfaction with their cameras will fade and many might become RED customers eventually. Just my thoughts.

I couldnt agree more. There is going to be this mass amount off ppl that learn about this camera when its just released and be like "oh thats cool il get one to film my sons soccer games" lol. I know this is entirely selfish and silly of me but I dont want a bunch of rich uneducated ppl picking up this camera cause its the newest kid on the block. I hope Sony and Panasonic release a couple cameras they claim are scarlet competition and i hope that silly market of uneducated ppl go out and buy them because they are new. As far as red goes i think they are the only company that actually is releasing a camera based on what ppl want. Sony and Panasonic will release dumbed down thrown together versions for probably triple the price tag and wont even come near to the quality, outstanding service and awsome user base ( yes i mean you reading this :) ) that red has to offer. Again i say this is incredibly selfish of me and red will REALY benifit from all those sales but hey- i want to feel elite without spending 50k. rant over.

[David Rasberry]

It takes a pretty serious well off hobbyist to buy a $5k+ camera for casual home movies. Even in this prosumer price range most will expect the camera to earn its keep.

[Terry VerHaar]

It takes a pretty serious well off hobbyist to buy a $5k+ camera for casual home movies. Even in this prosumer price range most will expect the camera to earn its keep.

I agree. But what I think will put off wealthy hobbyists even more than price is that you have to do quite a bit more thinking to buy and then use a Scarlet. Whereas you can pretty much just order an EX-1 and read the manual, a Scarlet requires that you decide what modules to buy and that means you have to have a sense of how you are going to use it. And when you realize that you have to make some decisions about how you will deal with editing and posting R3D files, you might just decide to stick with your HV-30 and iMovie! :001_huh:

[Andrew Rieger]

I agree. But what I think will put off wealthy hobbyists even more than price is that you have to do quite a bit more thinking to buy and then use a Scarlet. Whereas you can pretty much just order an EX-1 and read the manual, a Scarlet requires that you decide what modules to buy and that means you have to have a sense of how you are going to use it. And when you realize that you have to make some decisions about how you will deal with editing and posting R3D files, you might just decide to stick with your HV-30 and iMovie! :001_huh:

As much as reduser's will not want to admit it, red in it's current state is not friendly for those not on the higher end of video production. I could not imagine jumping from an HV30 to Red. Scarlet will ease the transition but keep in mind that the Scarlet is a lower cost Red One. HDV and DSLR users will be lost when they go scarlet, the concept of raw shooting is very confusing to those who have never used red. I have spent months and months on this site, even before I was a member and I still find many things to be very confusing. What will be needed is a good Scarlet for beginners book or DVD that explains every aspect of the camera from mounting lenses, to loading firmware updates, to importing footage to adding accessories to working with the footage in post. Red is so different from other systems that there will need to be plenty of training literature to get others up to speed. It will be a piece of cake for current red users but those who have never touched a Red One or its footage in post will certainly be lost.

[Norman B. Miller]

As much as reduser's will not want to admit it, red in it's current state is not friendly for those not on the higher end of video production. I could not imagine jumping from an HV30 to Red. Scarlet will ease the transition but keep in mind that the Scarlet is a lower cost Red One. HDV and DSLR users will be lost when they go scarlet, the concept of raw shooting is very confusing to those who have never used red. I have spent months and months on this site, even before I was a member and I still find many things to be very confusing. What will be needed is a good Scarlet for beginners book or DVD that explains every aspect of the camera from mounting lenses, to loading firmware updates, to importing footage to adding accessories to working with the footage in post. Red is so different from other systems that there will need to be plenty of training literature to get others up to speed. It will be a piece of cake for current red users but those who have never touched a Red One or its footage in post will certainly be lost.

I sure agree with you Andrew. I have been following the site almost from its beginning and there are still areas where I have allot of questions. It would be great if they could get lynda.com to handle a complete course on Scarlet the way you are suggesting.....

[Jay A. Kelley]

There is a DVD on the way that will answer most if not all your questions! Never fear!

However I would suggest, if you do not know RED at all, START with the RED101... It's the foundation that EPIC and SCARLET are based on.

Jay

[David Rasberry]

As much as reduser's will not want to admit it, red in it's current state is not friendly for those not on the higher end of video production. I could not imagine jumping from an HV30 to Red. Scarlet will ease the transition but keep in mind that the Scarlet is a lower cost Red One. HDV and DSLR users will be lost when they go scarlet, the concept of raw shooting is very confusing to those who have never used red. I have spent months and months on this site, even before I was a member and I still find many things to be very confusing. What will be needed is a good Scarlet for beginners book or DVD that explains every aspect of the camera from mounting lenses, to loading firmware updates, to importing footage to adding accessories to working with the footage in post. Red is so different from other systems that there will need to be plenty of training literature to get others up to speed. It will be a piece of cake for current red users but those who have never touched a Red One or its footage in post will certainly be lost.

IMO the best practice to learn how to handle RED footage is to learn how to shoot and process RAW photos with a DSLR and also download Redcine-X and hunt up a few posted r3d clips to practice with. Very educational. Once you get to the NLE stage it will be just like editing anything else, though you will need lots of disk storage space and a fast computer to be efficient.

[Andrew Rieger]

IMO the best practice to learn how to handle RED footage is to learn how to shoot and process RAW photos with a DSLR and also download Redcine-X and hunt up a few posted r3d clips to practice with. Very educational. Once you get to the NLE stage it will be just like editing anything else, though you will need lots of disk storage space and a fast computer to be efficient.

I have learned through reading the manual, reading forum posts, purchasing the red book and as you stated, downloading redcine x and playing with r3d's. I have also shot raw for stills but lets face it for someone who buys a scarlet without doing these things, the red method of shooting and editing is very alien. There should be a Scarlet book (i'm sure there will be, look at all the 7d books and dvd's that have come out). We must remember that members of reduser do not represent all potential scarlet customers.

[Jay A. Kelley]

As much as reduser's will not want to admit it, red in it's current state is not friendly for those not on the higher end of video production. I could not imagine jumping from an HV30 to Red. Scarlet will ease the transition but keep in mind that the Scarlet is a lower cost Red One. HDV and DSLR users will be lost when they go scarlet, the concept of raw shooting is very confusing to those who have never used red. I have spent months and months on this site, even before I was a member and I still find many things to be very confusing. What will be needed is a good Scarlet for beginners book or DVD that explains every aspect of the camera from mounting lenses, to loading firmware updates, to importing footage to adding accessories to working with the footage in post. Red is so different from other systems that there will need to be plenty of training literature to get others up to speed. It will be a piece of cake for current red users but those who have never touched a Red One or its footage in post will certainly be lost.

I wanted to chime in that I agree with this post. Sadly I find that even training Videos and Books tend to speak a few miles over the head of the average beginner. When I created RED101 we took special care to keep "techie" terms to a minimum. When they were used, they were explained clearly. Our approach to the RED ONE was to speak to someone that had NEVER seen or heard of the camera before. It turns out this was successful. We will be doing that again for the EPIC / SCARLET DVDs when they come out.

Jay

[Mars Oliva]

2 months behind EPIC

They send out epic, get reviews, update epic & scarlet.
That's when it will be released.

At least this is what I heard from REDay and the Red class at NAB