DaVinci for Mac, game changer or game over? [Archive]

John Tissavary

04-16-2010, 11:36 PM

I agree that the game is changing. I also think Resolve at $995 (or $50k for a really professional basis) is a truly phenomenal deal, and not only will it change the game, but it'll change the players, too.

I'm a daily Scratch user, and the day I heard the DaVinci announcement (night before they announced it at NAB) I had the urge to panic and run out and buy Resolve (forget that it's not available at that price, yet...). But after a little thought of what that would do, in reality, to my pipeline and overall workflow and I realized things are not as cut and dry as they may seem.

Scratch is a complete finishing tool - it's about more than just color correction, Resolve is not. A large percentage of Assimilate's userbase doesn't use Scratch for color at all, rather for data conform. Not as sexy, but crucial. I need top level conform tools, it's not possible for me to service the kind of work that I do (r3d, film scans, etc...) without a fast, reliable, and flexible conform tool, even though 80% of what I do is color grading.

Also, since r3d is a large percentage of my work, I need something that works fast, stable, and squeezes every last bit of goodness out of the raw footage. Scratch does that. I've tried doing r3d work in a Resolve pipeline, and frankly I'd rather use Scratch (but that's me). When DaVinci gets mature handling of r3d and arri raw in Resolve then I'll be able to consider it as a grading tool for my work, but I prefer to work from raw over transcoded log dpx whenever possible, so for now it's not quite fitting my needs. Also, there's no telling if and when Redrocket support will exist for Resolve, and anyone that's used a Redrocket knows there's no going back from that!

I do believe everyone, including Assimilate, will have to make changes to their pricing structure - I think that's a good thing for the industry at large.

lionel2p

04-17-2010, 01:41 AM

I had a Scratch for 1 month in order to test it as a new station. I was looking for buying one in march. The Davinci announce killed this decision in one second, I think it's easy to understand. I'm not R3D only, so Scratch was more a "second" choice because I couldn't buy a 150K system. It's a wonderfull machine, but I'm conforming dozen of formats Scratch can't read natively. My idea was to use it as a color grading station for R3D native and DPX previously conformed on my Smoke Advanced for other formats.

Before making plans, I will test this new Resolve solution to see what I can do with it. It doesn't mean I will not buy another solution, but I really can't buy a 50K$ Scratch now with this 995$ Davinci.

This announce is going to stop lot of decisions from guys like me. For free-lance colorists, it could be a way for new opportunities. So yes, it's a game changer just now, in our mind, but let's see on real life in a near future.

Anyway, and lot of posts are going this way in other threads, grading is a small part of the work you have to do on a film. A 2 hours feature represents a huge amount of data and it's not so easy to move it from one place to another. Resolve couldn't be a solution for everything.

BM is doing his business, but I really had a feeling of "extreme violence" with this annoucement, especially for post-facilities. Things are changing, sure, but too fast !

David Battistella

04-17-2010, 06:30 AM

Looking at this thread again, it is hard to imagine people shelling out for Baselight (unless they change their pricing model) when there are very capable tools available.

even at 995 if I get 80% of the performance with a tangent wave panel then I would be pleased with that over spending an extra 28K for 20% more functionality.

995 also puts Davinci into the hands of everybody to help make it a preffered tool.

This will change things.

David

Laco Zamba

04-17-2010, 06:48 AM

Sooooo, where I can find some demo, tutorial or comparison review?
I want to learn more about it.

David Battistella

04-17-2010, 08:18 AM

You can download the manual from the Davinci site.

David

mikeburton

04-17-2010, 08:24 AM

There are quite a few factors that will make this port to Mac a significant one and price is only one. For me, stability is going to be crucial. If your pushing around heavy material, ie 1080p - 2K DPX, R3D etc and you can't get stable performance or the app crashes often etc I don't care how much it costs, I won't use it. Nothing is worse than working in a client session and having the app crash on you. Also, the app doesn't get released to the public until July. By then they should have the ability to write in RedRocket support. If they don't have this feature upon release I would say it's a pretty safe bet they aren't really interested in ever giving the Mac version the power to play in a professional environment. One GPU ie 4800Quadro for example plus a 650mB's RAID will play 2K DPX in realtime but R3D will require a lot more. In Scratch, (before the RedRocket card came out) the only way to acheive 2K Half Res High was to have the new Nahelem 3.2 Ghz processors overclocked to 4.0Ghz. That's a lot of horespower! The Rocket solves that problem obviously so it will be intersting and quite telling to me if they enable Rocket support out of the gate. If they do and the app can run quite stable it will be make an impact in the market. If not, it's Color with a more reputable name.

M Most

04-17-2010, 08:36 AM

Looking at this thread again, it is hard to imagine people shelling out for Baselight (unless they change their pricing model) when there are very capable tools available.

Just as not everyone shoots with Red even though it's very full featured, higher resolution, and much cheaper than almost anything else, not everyone will go to Resolve. Everyone has reasons why they prefer the tools they prefer. Sometimes it's price, but in real post facilities that do higher end work, it's usually more about user preferences, the tool's ability to handle the file formats that are common to that facility (and, BTW, Baselight probably handles more formats natively than just about anything available, including Red, Arri Raw, Phantom, and a number of others), the ability of the tool to fit into specific workflows (Baselight has a published API that lets those who can script everything from individual strips to entire projects without ever opening Baselight), the tool's specific toolsets for specific types of work (Baselight has Truelight, arguably the most accurate color management on the market as part of its native toolset), and perhaps as important as anything, the level of support supplied by the manufacturer (Filmlight's support is second to none, and they're usually first on the market among high end systems with support for new formats - Mysterium X, for instance..). If you ask most professional colorists who have run multiple systems which they feel gives them the best color correction toolset and the most control, I would say a fairly large percentage would probably name Baselight as their first choice. Others would probably pick Resolve or Lustre. But all of these products have their strengths and weaknesses, just as cameras do. No one company is going to "own" the color grading business, just as no one company "owns" the camera business, the recording business, or the post business, no matter how much they're willing to give away.

David Battistella

04-17-2010, 10:16 AM

Just as not everyone shoots with Red even though it's very full featured, higher resolution, and much cheaper than almost anything else, not everyone will go to Resolve. Everyone has reasons why they prefer the tools they prefer. Sometimes it's price, but in real post facilities that do higher end work, it's usually more about user preferences, the tool's ability to handle the file formats that are common to that facility (and, BTW, Baselight probably handles more formats natively than just about anything available, including Red, Arri Raw, Phantom, and a number of others), the ability of the tool to fit into specific workflows (Baselight has a published API that lets those who can script everything from individual strips to entire projects without ever opening Baselight), the tool's specific toolsets for specific types of work (Baselight has Truelight, arguably the most accurate color management on the market as part of its native toolset), and perhaps as important as anything, the level of support supplied by the manufacturer (Filmlight's support is second to none, and they're usually first on the market among high end systems with support for new formats - Mysterium X, for instance..). If you ask most professional colorists who have run multiple systems which they feel gives them the best color correction toolset and the most control, I would say a fairly large percentage would probably name Baselight as their first choice. Others would probably pick Resolve or Lustre. But all of these products have their strengths and weaknesses, just as cameras do. No one company is going to "own" the color grading business, just as no one company "owns" the camera business, the recording business, or the post business, no matter how much they're willing to give away.

Mike,

I agree with most of what you say and there is no doubt about baselights capabilities but the rest of my post talks about whether people will pay all the extras for 20% more features.

Volume.

Volume will matter.

david

John Tissavary

04-17-2010, 11:09 AM

The other thing about Baselight is since BM bought DaVinci they've changed the mode of support completely. While most of us (including me) can't tolerate the huge the support contract fees big iron companies demand, there is a place for that kind of thing, and Baselight's support is second to none. There will be larger facilities, processing huge amounts of data (which is where Baselight truly excels), for whom any downtime is money lost, and a support contract to a company that can maintain maximum uptime for the gear they support is worth its weight in gold.

That's not to say there aren't ways around that, and I predict a cottage industry of Resolve support contractors will sprout around centers of use, but when you shell out the extra $$ for Baselight you're really getting more than just some extra features.

Same thing with Scratch, though in a very different way. There's no question that Resolve for $995 will be huge competition for Assimilate - it's kind of a no-brainer to give it a shot at that price. But on a facility level I'd be far more likely to invest in Linux licenses as I don't believe it'd be practical to work from only a Mac for a couple of reasons (no reatime SDI output being the biggest - this means you can't get more than 8bits out in realtime!), and then the price structure isn't so wildly different - each package has its own particular strengths & weaknesses that will probably drive decisions more than just price alone.

cheers,

John T.

Arttie Puig

04-17-2010, 12:46 PM

But even at 50K, you get a way better deal than Scratch or any other, first of all you got an amazing panel, Scratch just uses Tangent or Cooper, runs on Linux, and you can use Infiniband to scale it up. But I think it's unfair to compare Scratch with the Linux version of DaVinci because Scratch is just running short there.

I remember a few months ago, the concept was that Scratch was so much cheaper than high end tools like a Baselight, Lustre or DaVinci, now it's all upside down.

And I can see that what's happening now it's really common, people who bought a Scratch at 75K are going to defend that to death, since there's nothing they can do about it, and people who were thinking in buying it they are just not going to. But Assimilate needs people to buy their software to stay in business, so it's a tough scenario for many.

On another note, NVidia took control of development of drivers for Mac, before Apple had it and they did a lousy job, I wouldn't be surprised of a Quadro SDI for Mac, but you can use a blackmagic or Kona card to get 10 bit output, although it wouldn't as fast.
But now processors are growing exponentially, what's coming next, 8 or 16 cores in one chip?

And to say the least, Blackmagic, they just keep pushing and pushing, the pace at how they develop new products is scary, they obviously surpassed Kona (although I prefer them) on features alone. And they re-hired all the developers that were fired for DaVinci that were pushing for new features, so they got an amazing team working on their side.
I mean, who knows, as RED becomes more and more popular, they may even come with their own Rocket card version at $999, I wouldn't be surprised.

Greg M

04-17-2010, 03:04 PM

$999 gets you a piece of software, nothing more. Scratch is a system, as is Baselight.

Cüneyt Kaya

04-17-2010, 03:12 PM

$999 gets you a piece of software, nothing more. Scratch is a system, as is Baselight.

scratch is a piece of software...around 7 MB big.

a scratch station is an average PC with common hardware + CC Tools (panels+rocket+nvidiacard+monitor + raid....though a lil overpriced)...

with scratch software you get fast/stable pro RED software and always the support for the latest RED stuff....that is an advantage and there are a lot of redshooters happiely paying for that.

(but a finishing Tool not beeing able to load other RAW codecs is a disadvantage for assimilate)

----inmho they missed the market where foundries storm falls in.

M Most

04-17-2010, 03:24 PM

But even at 50K, you get a way better deal than Scratch or any other, first of all you got an amazing panel, Scratch just uses Tangent or Cooper, runs on Linux, and you can use Infiniband to scale it up. But I think it's unfair to compare Scratch with the Linux version of DaVinci because Scratch is just running short there.

You're making the assumption that Scratch and Resolve do the same thing. They do not. Resolve is a color grading system, and that's all it does. Scratch is a data mangement/conform system first, and a color correction system second. Most of the existing Scratch licenses are for systems that rarely if ever do any color work at all. They are used in major facilities like EFilm and others as conform workstations for projects that are then color graded on systems like Lustre, Baselight, and the like, as well as for real time playback and review by visual effects facilities. Most of the recent development on Scratch has revolved around adding compositing features. Only on RedUser do people think of Scratch as basically a color correction system.

I mean, who knows, as RED becomes more and more popular, they may even come with their own Rocket card version at $999, I wouldn't be surprised.

They would need Apple to redesign their machines to have more slots for this to be practical. I don't see that happening any time soon.

I don't disagree that Blackmagic's moves will probably hurt Assimilate to some degree. But people here don't seem to really understand who Assimilate's primary customer base is, and falsely assume that the DI finishing market is its primary and only one. But even if that were the case, the fact is that Scratch is a very efficient and viable conforming tool - a major part of what one must do in the DI world - and Resolve is not.

M Most

04-17-2010, 03:26 PM

(but a finishing Tool not beeing able to load other RAW codecs is a disadvantage for assimilate)

Scratch was demonstrated at NAB handling Arri RAW footage in real time with no additional hardware assistance beyond the "standard" Nvidia card. I think you can reasonably expect them to be adding support for all viable formats in the near future, although at the moment the only one they really don't handle natively is the Phantom.

Cüneyt Kaya

04-17-2010, 03:27 PM

Scratch was demonstrated at NAB handling Arri RAW footage in real time with no additional hardware assistance beyond the "standard" Nvidia card. I think you can reasonably expect them to be adding support for all viable formats in the near future, although at the moment the only one they really don't handle natively is the Phantom.

wow cool, i did missed it.

M Most

04-17-2010, 03:27 PM

And to say the least, Blackmagic, they just keep pushing and pushing, the pace at how they develop new products is scary, they obviously surpassed Kona (although I prefer them) on features alone. ,,,

And yet you prefer AJA. Does that not illustrate my point?

shashbugu

04-17-2010, 05:53 PM

$999 gets you a piece of software, nothing more. Scratch is a system, as is Baselight.

Ha ha thats really not true, its actually the opposite

shashbugu

04-17-2010, 05:57 PM

its wierd that all I hear on this thread is a sense of elitism. Who gives a f**k what highend facilities use? 10 years ago 64bit was only in $50,000 SGI machines runing IRIX. What happened to that? The same users of the SGI machines are doing high end creative jobs on $6000 HP workstations.

Davinci Resolve is not a conform tool true, but guess what it can conform and finnish just like the rest of them, its just expensive to conform on it thats all. Its data managment tools are actually more robust than scratch. All it dosent have is a multi track time-line.

M Most

04-17-2010, 06:23 PM

its wierd that all I hear on this thread is a sense of elitism. Who gives a f**k what highend facilities use?

One could easily say that by making that statement, you're showing a reverse elitism that is just as destructive.

And one answer to your question as to who gives a f**k what high end facilities use is, well, I do, because I've worked in and continue to work in rather high end facilities for much of my career. And whether you think so or not, so do a lot of other people, including the manufacturers - who use those high end facilities for most of their PR and advertising to get you, the non-highend user, to buy their tool under the category of "living the dream" of using what "the pros" do. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the influence of the high end market.

roryhinds

04-17-2010, 06:39 PM

Resolve is on Mac

The Mac market had no colour grading apart from Color which Apple royally screwed up from Silicon Color, not that they did a great job on it.

So for me its all about how BM take on the responsibility of providing a reliable color grading tool for the Mac platform... something that Assimilate should have done years ago.

Assimilate IMO have shot themselves in the foot with supporting Windows only.

Now all we need is Apple to bring out a Workstation Pro Mac with more slots and nVidia to release SDI drivers for the Mac... so we are back to dreaming of what is needed.
Apple are too buys with iToys and I think the Pro market is just a by product for them so the dilemma is what is the future for all this "high-end" software (Smoke & Resolve) if the hardware it runs on won't deliver.

Hackintosh anyone?

M Most

04-17-2010, 06:44 PM

Now all we need is Apple to bring out a Workstation Pro Mac with more slots and nVidia to release SDI drivers for the Mac... so we are back to dreaming of what is needed.
Apple are too buys with iToys and I think the Pro market is just a by product for them so the dilemma is what is the future for all this "high-end" software (Smoke & Resolve) if the hardware it runs on won't deliver.

Hackintosh anyone?

Good luck getting real support from any software publisher if you go that route.

The future for "high end" Smoke and Resolve is already here. It's called Linux, and it already runs on the very workstations you're describing. Without resorting to hacks. And with full support.

roryhinds

04-17-2010, 06:50 PM

Mike, I think you underestimate the Mac OS user base.

There are a lot of people out there that don't want to work on Linux or Windows.
Its that old argument that if everyone used Mac OS then there wouldn't be such an over inflated IT industry.

Yes using Hacks is a last resort but to be frank, support on a Mac system with someone that knows Mac is nothing like support on Linux or Win so a lot of Mac users can get by sorting out there own issues without the need of support. The only thing that would get them is an actual bug in the software.

And I'm not talking facilities here, I'm talking small businesses with independent artists running there own shop who can afford to break the envelope and innovate in their own way.

But my main point was Resolve is on Mac OS which is the biggest thing for me.

Arttie Puig

04-17-2010, 07:00 PM

M Most

04-17-2010, 07:15 PM

Like I said before, I would be defending Scratch too if I paid $75K, which I almost did, now I'm glad I didn't. Besides, everybody is comparing it with the Mac version, but the Linux one seems to be the real deal. Besides, let's look at what movies were done on a DaVinci and which ones on Scratch, and also, the Mac version, is not a watered down version.

I'm not defending or criticizing anything. I don't own Scratch, I don't own a Resolve, and I don't own a Baselight. I'm just stating my views as a non-biased but experienced colorist who has worked in what those here call the "high end" of the industry for a long time. I have no personal agenda whatsoever other than to give people here who don't have that experience a little bit of perspective.

M Most

04-17-2010, 07:21 PM

Mike, I think you underestimate the Mac OS user base.

There are a lot of people out there that don't want to work on Linux or Windows.

I wasn't commenting on the user base. I was commenting on the notion of using an arguably illegal configuration, and definitely an unsupported one, from both the hardware side and the software side.

Yes using Hacks is a last resort but to be frank, support on a Mac system with someone that knows Mac is nothing like support on Linux or Win so a lot of Mac users can get by sorting out there own issues without the need of support. The only thing that would get them is an actual bug in the software.

And I'm not talking facilities here, I'm talking small businesses with independent artists running there own shop who can afford to break the envelope and innovate in their own way.

If you ever have a problem and you call Blackmagic and tell them that you're doing this, my guess is that they will immediately tell you that what you're trying to do is unsupported and they really can't help you. If you want to run a business on that basis, be my guest, I can't stop you. But I don't think the term "professional" would fit that scenario, regardless of whether it's an "independent artist" or an experienced pro.

Paul Buhl

04-17-2010, 07:25 PM

I think it's important to separate the software and hardware here. Sure, there are amazing developments in software that folks on the high-end pro side need to take seriously, but software is still limited by hardware on the more pro-sumer work-flows, which are absolutely great for HD only projects, but a 4K project can be very difficult in those environments. I recently finished a 4K R3D feature by cutting with H Proxies in FCP, using XML to get into Smoke transcoding to 10 bit log DPX 2K conform, graded the 2K on DaVinci, then back to Smoke for composites and output to HDCam SR. Comparing that experience to grading with Apple Color on a Quadcore, I would say is a stretch. Sure, you can grade the 4K in Color, but it's shot by shot with no real-time play back unless you've got the serious muscle on the hardware side, which would make the "inexpensive" aspect of software not so inexpensive. DPX data rates of 3gbits per second would crush a typical G5 quad or eightcore, even at 2K. Working with the 10 bit 2K DPX on a DaVinci (proprietary) in real time was pretty impressive. So although I love Apple and only cut in FCP and love the software revolution and the innovation it brings to all levels of post, you still can't get around the fact that software is just software, and hardware is the muscle it depends on.
Scratch was introduced as a low priced finishing system starting at $70,000, competing with systems typically priced $150,000-$300,000.
Thinking that a $1000 software product can replace even a $50,000 system is a bit wishful. The bottom line of what's going on here is the offline editing world is pushing rapidly up toward trying to become a finishing world and some of the high-end finishing world is coming down to the desktop software revolution, which is great for everyone because it supplies us with many innovative options. But there is no free ride when it comes to properly grading, conforming and finishing projects outside of the compressed HD environment.

roryhinds

04-17-2010, 07:28 PM

Yes I agree Mike.
No point arguing over what is professional and what is not.
RED was seen as "unprofessional" when they were starting off pulling bits and piece and making it work.

Shall we get aback on point.... Resolve is on MAC and its the only real "pro" color grading option available on that platform, discounting Color from Apple.

It will be interesting to see how it impacts the market being on the iToy platform.

Cüneyt Kaya

04-17-2010, 07:28 PM

its cool to have davinci/smoke and what will come next to the MAC.

I want to see what people like brian allen can get out of this pieces of software.

shashbugu

04-17-2010, 08:25 PM

M Most & Paul Buhl I'm not sure I clearly understand you. Redcode is an intelligently light, and well compressed raw codec. The trick to its fluid playback is in real time debayering.
the Davinci Linux is priced (you can verify this with BM) for tele-cine style grading. For R3D's the $1000 resolve software on a mac uses the same cuda technology as Adobe does for playback and correction using a BM card to monitor. So I'm not sure why you guys think for a Red Project the mac resolve wont be adequate. On the contrary. there is nothing but more GPU 's in the linux version. Apple does not support multiple GPUs as of today, who knows what the future brings. 16 core macs with SLi hmmmmm..... just as 1080p means nothing, there are many levels of 4k. A 4k film scan is contained in a larger file format compared to a 4k Redcode file. This does not mean the Film scan is better or richer than the R3D, they are just different beasts You can playback 4 layers of 4k R3ds in real time on sony vegas today, try that with a 2k exr file. So the term high end only stands for specific industry price.

The mac is now 64bit and you have the complete Adobe suite, many NLE's, 3D programs etc to work with. Its more creative to have those tools at your disposal on one platform. It amazes me how people get excited about tools on the Linux platform. I know its more scalable but yikes!!! I leave that o the professionals like you M Most. I just need cheap tools that I can create with. there are amazing young frustrated or opportunistic innovative folks that will continue to destroy the high end with more intuitive and amazingly simple tools. the best roto tools used to be in smoke, then imagineer systems came out, now look at the Adobe roto brush light years ahead. In about two months a whole new slew of plugins and tool that mimic or are better than baselight, etc will be released. heck Lightworks is free now

Darren Orange

04-17-2010, 08:31 PM

I agree with Shashbugu. As far as I've been told it will stack up just fine and act like any other software with just one GPU like Scratch and Speedgrade. Also to others how many people have read the manual at this point? Also at this point I can't see any issues with it VS a Scratch or Speedgrade. As far as I've known this system is considered the top of the line system.

So better question, who was at NAB and played with this system on a Mac and can give feedback on the setup and how it preformed?

Also at 50K, 30K of that is hardware, I don't know anyone other system that gives you a control panel in its purchase price.

shashbugu

04-17-2010, 08:43 PM

[QUOTE=Paul Buhl;
Thinking that a $1000 software product can replace even a $50,000 system is a bit wishful. [/QUOTE]

Really? its the same exact software, no difference whatsoever.

Greg M

04-17-2010, 08:56 PM

Ha ha thats really not true, its actually the opposite

How is that?

Arttie Puig

04-17-2010, 09:26 PM

And yet you prefer AJA. Does that not illustrate my point?

I don't know...what is your point really? That Scratch is better? Maybe, but how much better? is it $74K better now? I mean, they use the same panels Apple Color does! And Scratch is a software, not a system, and it runs on Windows, you need a system to run Scratch, but they have no proprietary hardware.

As far as the Kona preference, I like Kona, maybe is a emotional preference, but now BM can do everything they do, and even stereoscopic, so if I had to buy one now, I'd go with BM.

For me, I always tried to get my hands on a DaVinci and never could, where I work I use Quantel Pablo, and the only way to learn it was to work in a big facility, like Company 3, that pretty much do everything on a DaVinci, now I can buy one, unbelievable!

shashbugu

04-17-2010, 09:30 PM

How is that?

Sorry Scratch is not a system just piece of software, Baselight 8 is almost the same parallel architecture as Resolve linux. Resolve mac is a software only.

shashbugu

04-17-2010, 09:32 PM

I don't know...what is your point really? That Scratch is better? Maybe, but how much better? is it $74K better now? I mean, they use the same panels Apple Color does! And Scratch is a software, not a system, and it runs on Windows, you need a system to run Scratch, but they have no proprietary hardware.

As far as the Kona preference, I like Kona, maybe is a emotional preference, but now BM can do everything they do, and even stereoscopic, so if I had to buy one now, I'd go with BM.

For me, I always tried to get my hands on a DaVinci and never could, where I work I use Quantel Pablo, and the only way to learn it was to work in a big facility, like Company 3, that pretty much do everything on a DaVinci, now I can buy one, unbelievable!

you will be pleased, after you learn the crazy interface (its intimidating to me) its future proof scalable by graphics card

roryhinds

04-17-2010, 09:37 PM

I read somewhere that BM were saying at NAB that they are working on RED Rocket support in Resolve.

As mentioned in this thread, lets hope they get it out on the release in July

Paul Hazlett

04-17-2010, 09:51 PM

I asked the guy doing the resolve demo at NAB to show me the system profile of the mac he was running resolve on and it was a 4 core i7 with I think 8 gb of ram nvidia card and BM card, nothing more. realtime r3d play and color correct

M Most

04-17-2010, 10:10 PM

M Most & Paul Buhl I'm not sure I clearly understand you.....I'm not sure why you guys think for a Red Project the mac resolve wont be adequate....It amazes me how people get excited about tools on the Linux platform. I know its more scalable but yikes!!! I leave that o the professionals like you M Most.

When and where did I say that? The only thing I've said here is that the Mac has limited expansion slots, which means that in a typical configuration, it can't support Resolve as it's currently specified and still have a Red Rocket card (even if the software itself supported it), whereas the Linux version would normally be run on a much more expandable system that can be configured for a lot more real time computing power. And all of that is completely true, as pointed out by Blackmagic themselves.

M Most

04-17-2010, 10:15 PM

I don't know...what is your point really? That Scratch is better? Maybe, but how much better? is it $74K better now? I mean, they use the same panels Apple Color does! And Scratch is a software, not a system, and it runs on Windows, you need a system to run Scratch, but they have no proprietary hardware.

As far as the Kona preference, I like Kona, maybe is a emotional preference, but now BM can do everything they do, and even stereoscopic, so if I had to buy one now, I'd go with BM.

You keep trying to make this about A vs. B. My point - my only point - is that not every choice is made solely on price. Different people, different companies, and different businesses have different criteria that leads to their product choices. That's why there are different products at different price points that may have similar functionality but different characteristics that appeal to those who need them.

Steen Linde

04-17-2010, 10:29 PM

What about Cineform from the SI 2K and RAW files from Weiscam? I don´t think Scratch supports that either.

Best

Paul Buhl

04-17-2010, 10:37 PM

to say it as simple as possible...software ALONE is irrelevant when it comes to moving heavy data rates around. I've worked with HD 100-200mbps, 4K R3D 300-400mbps, 2K DPX 2-3gbps in Apple work-flows with quads and eight cores, and proprietary Smoke and DaVinci environments. To work with 4K R3D and 2K DPX efficiently you need the muscle in your hardware. Other than that, I agree that the software revolution is the best thing that's happened and is driving prices down allowing more creativity, all of that. It's each individuals preference when it comes to which piece of software best meets their needs ie editing, grading, compositing, conforming, and what they are willing to spend.
But there is no way around the hardware investment to work with data rates in the 400mbps to 3gbps range.

Paul Buhl

04-17-2010, 10:47 PM

and here it is, right from the DaVinci Resolve site:

Computer based solutions are always limited to the computer you’re running on. DaVinci Resolve when running on Linux smashes this limitation, because it’s based on a cluster of Linux computers with high performance GPU cards, so all processing is always real time. This means DaVinci Resolve Linux has all the power of a super computer for the real time performance you need when you're in a room full of clients. Add dozens of primaries, secondaries, power windows, multi point tracking, blurs, and more, then just hit play. It always works!
Start with a single computer on Mac OS X for lower cost, then upgrade to Linux for extra power for high resolutions such as 2K or 4K, stereoscopic 3D feature films, or real time grading of raw RED files. It’s all possible with DaVinci because you can just add extra Linux computers and GPU cards via high speed InfiniBand connections. Only DaVinci Resolve scales up as your needs increase.

Paul Buhl

04-17-2010, 10:58 PM

M Most

04-17-2010, 11:02 PM

What about Cineform from the SI 2K and RAW files from Weiscam? I don´t think Scratch supports that either.

Cineform is supported as long as you have Cineform's software loaded on your computer (you don't need the full Neo package, you just need the reader, which as I recall is a free download). Scratch can read both AVI and Quicktime files, which are the two choices when recording on a Silicon Imaging camera. As for Weisscam, the only devices I know of that can deal with their RAW files are their own box (as I recall, they call it the debayerbox), their own software, and Iridas' products, at least at the present time.

Tim Whitcomb

04-17-2010, 11:52 PM

Fun thread - anyone else here think BM is modeling after SGO MiStika?

Mistika been rocking Linux and high end UK post for a couple years, but not in the US

They must be bummed at $200k (but it also has a killer 3D compositor)

Arttie Puig

04-18-2010, 12:00 AM

You keep trying to make this about A vs. B. My point - my only point - is that not every choice is made solely on price. Different people, different companies, and different businesses have different criteria that leads to their product choices.

OK, I get it, but this thread is about what companies like Assimilate, for example, will do in this current scenario.

You have to think that before BM made the announcement, there was Color in the lower end, Scratch in the middle, and then DaVinci, Baselight, Pablo, Lustre, and so on on the higher end. Scratch looked really good comparing the alternatives.

Now DaVinci took the middle place, the whole scenario changed, Pablo has more chances since they have proprietory hardware, but Scratch is just soft running on windows, that's the reality of it, it's just software. You pay the license and then you need to get a system to run it, and not for cheap.
How can you compete with BM now?
I only hope that they don't choose to deny it, it's a great software that I would love to see it grow.

Arttie Puig

04-18-2010, 12:04 AM

Michael Thornton

04-18-2010, 12:05 AM

LOL, I think Adobe should by Assimilate and make it a part of the Adobe Production bundle.

Hint hint Adobe.

I hope some one is listening.

That's a game changer.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 01:09 AM

So better question, who was at NAB and played with this system on a Mac and can give feedback on the setup and how it preformed?

What would you like to know?

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 01:43 AM

scratch's new 5.1 software works just like The davinci resolve realtime debayer using the nvidia cuda.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 03:12 AM

It's funny to see people trying to compare Davinci Resolve to Color as a way of belittling it... LOL. You can try all you want but some of us know how to read a manual. The software only version is more powerful than Scratch, Speedgrade or Color. Yes Davinci Resolve does have conform tools and data management... Telecine grade. The Linux system version is comparable to a Baselight or Pablo as far as color grading and conforming is concerned. Yes... Davinci Resolve is a system... the software being the first part of the system. Scratch, Speedgrade and Color is not a system.

Cüneyt Kaya

04-18-2010, 03:15 AM

It's funny to me to see people trying compare Davinci Resolve to Color as a way of belittling it... LOL. You can try all you want but some of us know how to read a manual. The software only version is more powerful than Scratch, Speedgrade or Color. Yes Davinci Resolve does have conform tools and data management... Telecine grade. The Linux system version is comparable to a Baselight or Pablo as far as color grading and conforming is concerned. Yes... Davinci Resolve is a system... the software being the first part of the system. Scratch, Speedgrade and Color is not a system.

i agree completly.
last week da vinci was worth every cent for the big boys, now its the same like Color?

Dunno, sounds like bubu to me.

lionel2p

04-18-2010, 05:32 AM

so the $1000 DaVinci Resolve software alone puts you in the same level of environment as Apple Color, then it's just a tools preference. To get the Linux license for the ability to expand the hardware power needed for real heavy lifting you need the control panel version at $30,000 and another $20,000 for the Linux license, now your back to $50,000 instead of the $1000 software solution.

I think you're wrong on this part. From what lot of people saw at NAB, Resolve is real-time on HD and even 2K on DPX sequences (if you have the raid for), like a Luster or a Scratch. Sure, when your grade is done, you have to render if you don't have a SR or need a DPX graded for shooting or whatever. (you also have to render with luster or Scratch the same way...)

Color can't do realtime on DPX or 2K, wich is a fondamental difference for a colorist and the client behind and. Renders are incredibly slow. Resolve can do what real color stations can do that on the paper : that is the big change.

For high-end movies, I don't think it will change something. When your working on a 5 to 100 millions dollar film, a 300K$ station is not a problem. Features, HD TV programs are not working in this price range. And those markets are the everyday business for most of us. Resolve is targeted for that. My humble opinion.

Red changed things on that side. Difficult to see "high-ends" cam on many movies today, but Red and now 5D !! For 90%, it's a matter of cost for a beautiful quality at the end.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 07:42 AM

I've just finished reading Chapter 4 "The Conform Page"... wow... let me see the features to list:

1. Edit existing conform with tools such as Insert, Ripple, Roll, Slip, Trim
2. Create a new conform (option to export new EDL from edits)
3. Audio Conform Tools such as audio synchronization
4. Load multiple EDLs
5. Load offline clips for comparison

How can you compare this to Apple Color?

Gabriele Turchi

04-18-2010, 09:33 AM

andrae,
where did you get the manual of davinci?

thanks

g

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 09:40 AM

The davinci support page... here's the direct link:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/downloads/davinci/pdf/DaVinciResolveManual.pdf

Gabriele Turchi

04-18-2010, 09:44 AM

thanks!!!

g

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 10:04 AM

Hi Andrae,
thats the version 6.-- linux manual, from the black magic reps fcp-super-meet video the interface is much better and there are even more features than in that manual. A few days ago i was afraid they just gave us the same ugly complex linux interface but i was wrong, they actually put some muscle into this thing. Black magic has some new inexpensive hard ware cards that makes ingesting directly into Resolve even easier, complete with hardware scopes. Only BM sells a multichannel stream 3D stereoscopic card for $495.

Tim Whitcomb

04-18-2010, 10:11 AM

We are building a non Linux system and will post results
in May. Going to put it head to head with Color suite and give people a
choice - choices are always good.

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 10:28 AM

We are building a non Linux system and will post results
in May. Going to put it head to head with Color suite and give people a
choice - choices are always good.

Tim that sounds really cool, but this is the assimilate scratch forum, we should be comparing it with scratch not color

M Most

04-18-2010, 10:29 AM

Right, 50K soft + killer panel on Linux (expandable), against $75K (or 50K) soft only Scratch running on Windows (non-expandable). See the big difference?

Besides, even if its soft only, daVinci is far superior than Color as far as tools and capabilities.

How many more times and how many more ways do you need to say the same thing? You think Resolve will put Assimilate out of business. We get it. I was trying to expand this into a more sensible and general conversation, and offer a view from another end of the industry. That's clearly a conversation you don't seem to want to take part in.

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 10:37 AM

Oh wow Andrae! I'm looking through the manual the resolve thats have a full multitrack timelime now

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 11:09 AM

Jorge Torrens

04-18-2010, 11:25 AM

Oh wow Andrae! I'm looking through the manual the resolve thats have a full multitrack timelime now

No, not at the moment when you see two tracks is because there is a dissolve, is like in an AB Edl, but hopefully when they implement the xml importer there will be one

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:26 AM

We are building a non Linux system and will post results
in May. Going to put it head to head with Color suite and give people a
choice - choices are always good.

Tim.
If you're talking about the Mac version it would be very difficult feat to achieve, as that version is only planned to go on sale in June-July:-) As far as head to head goes, why bother? The answer is already obvious to anyone, who has used both of those systems in the past already. Especially after having seen 1/2 debayer, 6 layer of color grade, 2 keys and defocus playing back unrendered in real time on a Mac version...

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:30 AM

No, not at the moment when you see two tracks is because there is a dissolve, is like in an AB Edl, but hopefully when they implement the xml importer there will be one

At least according to the director of BL software development, the answer is no on both. No multitrack layer timeline and XML support planned at this time.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:36 AM

I was reading the manual I got to page 81, my head really hurts. This calls for a Noah Kadner video tutorial. I am a director not a colorist/engineer just simplify the stuff for me so I can get my vision across.
At least it's a professionally written manual, for a colorist consumption, as usual for DaVinci. Try reading Scratch. Your head will explode. Only engineer may make some sense out of it. It is plain awful...

Steve Das

04-18-2010, 11:38 AM

At least according to the director of BL software development, the answer is no on both. No multitrack layer timeline and XML support planned at this time.

...Then how do people plan to use this $999 software...?

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 11:42 AM

lots of taking peoples comments out of context here. Remember, Color is part of a suite, not a stand-alone, so it was never intended to be what Resolve is. Personally I'm a huge fan of DaVinci and have actually finished features with it, so I don't have to read the manual. I work in FCP and Color regularly as well. The larger important discussion here was never about comparing Color to Resolve apples for apples, it was about whether you can simply just go out a but a $1000 piece of software and feel like you have beaten the high priced finishing environments at their own game. Even though Resolve at $1000 can do much more than Color alone, remember you get Color in the context of the entire FCP suite which is really an offline cutting tool trying to become an affordable finishing solution as a package. To work with 4K and DPX in real time requires investment in hardware, no way around that. It's right on the Resolve page that they are not claiming the $1000 software solution get's you there, you need the Linux level, according to them. And given that Scratch is only software, why would anyone say it's not expandable on the hardware side? If Scratch is over priced for what it does, the marketplace will take care of that. Right now if you drop $50,000 on Resolve you get an amazing package, no doubt, and you would need closer to $80,000 for equivalent power in Scratch (regardless of the different strengths and weaknesses in the software) so really apples to apples, Scratch and Resolve are not as far apart in cost as being made out here. I agree that Resolve is offering a better product at a better price, but again, the original debate in this thread was based on whether inexpensive software solutions are bringing expensive finishing environments to their knees, something that sounds more like a political ideology about health care or redistribution of wealth vs professionals trying to help each other find the best work flow solutions for the money. There is no free ride in either discussion, but technology and competition move us all in the best direction.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:49 AM

From what lot of people saw at NAB, Resolve is real-time on HD and even 2K on DPX sequences (if you have the raid for), like a Luster or a Scratch.

I don't know why people keep referring to Mac Resolve as an HD or 2k system. Again, from the conversation with BM director of software development, there is no reason, why you couldn't do a grade in HD or 2k and then render it out as 4k finish. It's just, that at this point it's not capable of REAL TIME 4k, but otherwise, 4k and beyond is not a problem. Just like any other high end systems we know... What? Color can't do 4K? Ooops... Said that, there is a caveat, BM hasn't tested the 4k render yet. As was explained to me, they were just barely able to make the deadline of Mac port for the NAB. The real writing and testing of Mac resolve just starting now.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:53 AM

...Then how do people plan to use this $999 software...?

The same way people use Scratch, Lustre etc

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 11:55 AM

At least it's a professionally written manual, for a colorist consumption, as usual for DaVinci. Try reading Scratch. Your head will explode. Only engineer may make some sense out of it. It is plain awful...

I hear you on that one, I am not a colorist the terminology is insane. But i sure am glad when i come to you I can pay you 50 bucks an hour and not 450.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 11:56 AM

Tim.
If you're talking about the Mac version it would be very difficult feat to achieve, as that version is only planned to go on sale in June-July:-) As far as head to head goes, why bother? The answer is already obvious to anyone, who has used both of those systems in the past already. Especially after having seen 1/2 debayer, 6 layer of color grade, 2 keys and defocus playing back unrendered in real time on a Mac version...

This is definitely interesting to me. What format and data rate was this being achieved with and what processor level on the Mac? According to the Resolve site, the Mac solution is geared toward SD and HD, the Linux is needed for 4K R3D or 2K DPX.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 11:58 AM

choices are always good.

Most definitely Tim.. your studio is positioned well on the high end and also you adapt to new tech realities... your looking at this from the right point of view... which is "functionality". I'm thinking the Davinci could at least help out with conforming.

Right now if you drop $50,000 on Resolve you get an amazing package, no doubt, and you would need closer to $80,000 for equivalent power in Scratch (regardless of the different strengths and weaknesses in the software) so really apples to apples, Scratch and Resolve are not as far apart in cost as being made out here.

What do you mean? At 50k the Resolve system is way more powerful than a 70k Scratch software. Scratch can't even get the same equivalent 4k Realtime not to mention the grading panel.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 12:03 PM

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 12:08 PM

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 12:16 PM

I don't know why people keep referring to Mac Resolve as an HD or 2k system. Again, from the conversation with BM director of software development, there is no reason, why you couldn't do a grade in HD or 2k and then render it out as 4k finish. It's just, that at this point it's not capable of REAL TIME 4k, but otherwise, 4k and beyond is not a problem. Just like any other high end systems we know... What? Color can't do 4K? Ooops... Said that, there is a caveat, BM hasn't tested the 4k render yet. As was explained to me, they were just barely able to make the deadline of Mac port for the NAB. The real writing and testing of Mac resolve just starting now.

It's right on the Resolve website that the Mac solution is geared toward SD and HD. If you grade in HD or 2K, there would be no reason to out 4K, that's backwards. Color of course can grade 4K, but you need serious hardware to play the 4K in real time. Most Color users don't have the budget to go beyond a typical G5 Quad, which is why they use Color. The grading point really is about the best way to maintain the full latitude of available info in the file when at the grading stage. Some Colorists still feel that a transcoded 2K Log DPX from 4K R3D is just as good as the 4K original in that regard. Some say it's best to grade the 4K itself. But traditionally, the higher end post houses using DaVinci have been living in the 2K DPX world, and their compositing is 2K. Working and finishing in 4K is coming fast, and it's the lower cost solutions that are pushing that, rather than coming from the top down.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 12:18 PM

This is definitely interesting to me. What format and data rate was this being achieved with and what processor level on the Mac? According to the Resolve site, the Mac solution is geared toward SD and HD, the Linux is needed for 4K R3D or 2K DPX.
The code word is "real time". So, just grade with proxies or 1/2 debayer and then render at any desired resolution. They don't limit it in software in any way...

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 12:22 PM

It's right on the Resolve website that the Mac solution is geared toward SD and HD. If you grade in HD or 2K, there would be no reason to out 4K, that's backwards. Color of course can grade 4K, but you need serious hardware to play the 4K in real time. Most Color users don't have the budget to go beyond a typical G5 Quad, which is why they use Color. The grading point really is about the best way to maintain the full latitude of available info in the file when at the grading stage. Some Colorists still feel that a transcoded 2K Log DPX from 4K R3D is just as good as the 4K original in that regard. Some say it's best to grade the 4K itself. But traditionally, the higher end post houses using DaVinci have been living in the 2K DPX world, and their compositing is 2K. Working and finishing in 4K is coming fast, and it's the lower cost solutions that are pushing that, rather than coming from the top down.

Seriously, you want to me write the answer on 4k a third time? Using proxies is backwards? interesting statement... And since when is Color can do 4k?

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 12:24 PM

Seriously, you want to me write the answer on 4k a third time? Using proxies is backwards? interesting statement... And since when is Color can do 4k?

Color 1.5 can output to 4k.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 12:28 PM

I don't know if you all watched the same BM video of resolve for the mac. it was PLAYING BACK 2K RED AND 2K DPX FILES, MULTIPLE EFFECTS NODES IN REAL REAL TIME. seeing is believing, it was even playing back HD files on a mac pro laptop. Paul Buhl, you keep making it out to be weak. the linux version is super powerful for telecine DI playout,where you need realtime playback out to a film recorder complete with continuos printer light calibration. if you work in broadcast on a disk based workflow for, shows, commercials, music vids, what do you need real time 4k playback for? If you really need that get a Pablo or RED Rocket™™, all the tools are out there. Its only a matter of time every NLE will have RED Rocket™ playback. All we need today is 2k. $k is future proof we can always go-back and re-conform. I know most people on here are pixel purist, but short 0f $8000 you cant even monitor a 4k image. Sony's new SR deck records 2k mastering.

I agree with you on the 2K vs 4K completely. For me, shooting in 4K and finishing in 2K DPX is very impressive. My only question is what kind of power does the Mac Resolve solution offer, and according to the demo you are talking about it's quite substantial. I only know that I can't play either 4K R3D or 2K DPX in real time on my Mac G5 Intel 2.8 Dual Qaud. If the Mac solution can play 2K DPX in real time on my Mac, I'd be absolutely thrilled, but it says right on their own site that the Mac solution is designed for HD, so I'm fascinated with the two different stories here and will check out the demos asap.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 12:28 PM

I don't know if you all watched the same BM video of resolve for the mac. it was PLAYING BACK 2K RED AND 2K DPX FILES, MULTIPLE EFFECTS NODES IN REAL REAL TIME. seeing is believing, it was even playing back HD files on a mac pro laptop. Paul Buhl, you keep making it out to be weak. the linux version is super powerful for telecine DI playout,where you need realtime playback out to a film recorder complete with continuos printer light calibration. if you work in broadcast on a disk based workflow for, shows, commercials, music vids, what do you need real time 4k playback for? If you really need that get a Pablo or RED Rocket™™™, all the tools are out there. Its only a matter of time every NLE will have RED Rocket™™ playback. All we need today is 2k. 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k 9k 10k are future proof, we can always go-back and re-conform. I know most people on here are pixel purist, but short 0f $80,000 you cant even monitor a 4k image. Sony's new SR deck records 2k mastering. Shooting 5k gets a deeper richer fidelity rich company.
A long time ago Grant Petty was talking about being able to use Linux Resolve to do a 28k REAL TIME grading. It has that much power to spare. There is no limiting of resolution in software on either platform. It's just a matter of practicality.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 12:36 PM

I agree with you on the 2K vs 4K completely. For me, shooting in 4K and finishing in 2K DPX is very impressive. My only question is what kind of power does the Mac Resolve solution offer, and according to the demo you are talking about it's quite substantial. I only know that I can't play either 4K R3D or 2K DPX in real time on my Mac G5 Intel 2.8 Dual Qaud. If the Mac solution can play 2K DPX in real time on my Mac, I'd be absolutely thrilled, but it says right on their own site that the Mac solution is designed for HD, so I'm fascinated with the two different stories here and will check out the demos asap.
Mac Resolve at NAB was playing 2k DPX in real time. Actually playback in real time of 1/2 debayered red file with 6 layers of color grade, 2 keys and a defocus is MUCH MORE impressive and difficult feat. And you still could grade it even during the playback. Let's see Color do that. Actually, let's see Scratch do, what Resolve does with an awesome panel and all, at less than half price...

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 12:42 PM

Color 1.5 can output to 4k.
Color me surprised. Didn't know that...

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 12:46 PM

I agree with you on the 2K vs 4K completely. For me, shooting in 4K and finishing in 2K DPX is very impressive. My only question is what kind of power does the Mac Resolve solution offer, and according to the demo you are talking about it's quite substantial. I only know that I can't play either 4K R3D or 2K DPX in real time on my Mac G5 Intel 2.8 Dual Qaud. If the Mac solution can play 2K DPX in real time on my Mac, I'd be absolutely thrilled, but it says right on their own site that the Mac solution is designed for HD, so I'm fascinated with the two different stories here and will check out the demos asap.

you have a mac G5 PPC or intel? without the Intel platform EMM you wont be able to do much

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 12:50 PM

Seriously, you want to me write the answer on 4k a third time? Using proxies is backwards? interesting statement... And since when is Color can do 4k?

Not sure what you mean. You said grade in 2K and output in 4K, which is backwards if you are grading in DPX. If you are grading the actual proxies, then you are not even close to getting all you can get out of your R3D. If you are using the proxies properly, you would be actually grading the R3D, not the proxy. Color 1.0 can grade 4K R3D, but only output ProRes HD. Color 1.5 can grade 4K R3D, and output 4K DPX, 2K DPX, ProRes 12 bit 444. So a proper 2K grade is either 2k R3D, DPX, ProRes or some other 2K transcode from 4K R3D. So why would you go out to 4K from a 2K grade?

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 01:03 PM

Not sure what you mean. You said grade in 2K and output in 4K, which is backwards if you are grading in DPX. If you are grading the actual proxies, then you are not even close to getting all you can get out of your R3D. If you are using the proxies properly, you would be actually grading the R3D, not the proxy. Color 1.0 can grade 4K R3D, but only output ProRes HD. Color 1.5 can grade 4K R3D, and output 4K DPX, 2K DPX, ProRes 12 bit 444. So a proper 2K grade is either 2k R3D, DPX, ProRes or some other 2K transcode from 4K R3D. So why would you go out to 4K from a 2K grade?

Well the 2K grade will be your super high res proxy

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 01:29 PM

this is an interesting thread, but as a reduser I am definitely a whole lot more excited about CS5 than about resolve.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 01:36 PM

Well the 2K grade will be your super high res proxy

The proxies in all resolutions point back to the original R3D data. The proxies are just for cutting with, not intended to finish with, so you need to be sure you are grading either your R3D or properly transcoded DPX, ProRes, etc. Go to your folders with the R3D, copy only the proxies to a new directory and open them in QT and you will see they have no data of their own without the R3D present. So a 2K grade has to be done with a 2k R3D or a format that was derived from and actual transcode from the R3D.

lionel2p

04-18-2010, 01:54 PM

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 02:20 PM

Jeff, I refered to realtime grading. 2K realtime is enough for me !

I am with you Jeff.
2k realtime is here and now in every NLE and efx and grading system.

Why worry about sluggish 4k playback when you can do more with 2k and have pristine full debayered 2k output

lionel2p

04-18-2010, 02:23 PM

2K DPX realtime on mac is a matter of disk speed only. Software is not a limitation. With all different arrays on the market, it's easy to find a cost effective system for Resolve to handle 2K files. Scratch, Luster are working exactly the same way. I have absolutly no doubt of the 2K capability of Resolve. For R3D debayer, let's see, but a half-res realtime is quiet cool, waiting for Red Rocket or simply a Mac power update. Anyway, 2K is largely enough do a great job, and 4K outpout is an exotic demand in my country :)

Michael Cioni

04-18-2010, 03:01 PM

Since there are a few threads on Da Vinci, I wanted to contribute on the discussion here as well. Another good thread is below, where this post can also be seen.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43697&page=25

Since a large amount of my business at Light Iron is focused on digital intermediate, this particular thread addresses a lot of the excitement about how the ecosystem is changing for digital intermediate. I was pleasantly surprised to see what Black Magic did with their newly acquired Resolve system. To break this down, let's look at the facts.

1. Da Vinci is the most widely known and accepted color grading system on earth. Da Vinci's can be found just about everywhere and they allow for modifications to enable them to work with film, tape, and file based sources. No other DI tool can work with that myriad of formats as smoothly as Da Vinci.
2. The Resolve is an amazing grading tool. The abilities one can learn with this program raise the bar tremendously over similarly priced systems. This means it will allow people who want to learn more about DI the ability to go as deep and as wide as someone who has made a lot bigger of an investment.
3. No one really knows exactly how these systems will perform in the various configurations that Black Magic is building. Until units are in the hands of users, we are going to have to guess.
4. I am confident that even though the Resolve is 500% cheaper than it was 1 year ago, it will not be 500% worse. If you know me, you'll know I am a fan of RED because I am a fan of scalability. My professional career has been all about managing the scaleability of systems integration (be it DI or otherwise) so that investments can change in accordance with experience, demand, and finances. Resolve is a perfect example of a new level of scaleability, to which I am happy to see.
5. Experienced colorists who use Resolve should not be instantly threatened. Talent is paramount, and that takes a lot of time to develop of the years. Unless you stop learning today (which is unlikely to happen) you're current skills will only improve at a similar rate as those who jump on the system and start to learn it.
6. Un-experienced colorists who only have access to systems like Apple Color should be ecstatic! Being able to explore the depth of the Resolve tool and learn more about the width of color correction will not only improve your personal stock, but prepare you for adaptation to other DI systems, which are important to know as well.
7. Don't get too wrapped up in the numbers. Getting a Black Magic Mac Resolve to perform the same way as it did with Da Vinci will not be achieved with a thousand dollars. But it will count as absolutely bona fide experience on the Resolve system.

It was only 5 years ago that my partner Ian Vertovec and our team started color correction on Final Cut Pro and Final Touch. As our skills and clients improved, so did our DI systems. What Resolve on the MAC does better than anything in the past is close the gap between where you START in DI and where you can END UP. That's total empowerment and that type of opportunity would be foolish to ignore. Final Touch did this is the early 2000's, now Resolve has done it again. My advice is to take full advantage of this system and learn it through-and-through so you can graduate from it to other systems or upgrade the Resolve when we learn what more horsepower will offer the machine. But most importantly, I wanted to point out one more element for discussion:

As the demand for systems like Resolve to become more available at affordable prices, so does the demand for harder work. We call systems like FCP, Color, RED Rocket™™™™ cards, and now Resolve LIGHT WORK. These are systems that are inexpensive, readily available, fairly easy to adopt and extremely powerful. But the demand for harder, heavier work we call IRON WORK. This is the demand for 3D, 4K DI, and 4K restoration. Consider that just as the bar is raised in the LIGHT areas of the industry, so does the bar raise in the HEAVY areas of the industry. I surmise that this relationship will likely never cease. -Top end artists always pushing the boundaries of VFX, image capture, fidelity, and resolution, etc. So while Resolve offers an elevated starting point for DI in terms of LIGHT WORK, the industry is no doubt going to continue to organically demand more in terms of IRON WORK. This is why we named our company LIGHT IRON. It's often pointed out that I have 2 Pablo systems at my shop. But what's more important is that I now have Resolve alongside my RED Rocket™s, a dozen Mac computers, iPad dailies, and a slew of LIGHT WORK software solutions. So the name LIGHT IRON was chosen in recognition that there are many jobs that can be perfectly executed without the need of a Pablo. Likewise, as the demand for more "K's" and more "D's" are requested, the need for HEAVY IRON will never completely go away.

I, for one, am as excited about this as anyone else. It will allow each of us to diversify and develop and enable the talent, which is paramount, to do what they do best. And there is nothing wrong with that. ever.
m

Lucas Wilson

04-18-2010, 03:49 PM

At 50k the Resolve system is way more powerful than a 70k Scratch software. Scratch can't even get the same equivalent 4k Realtime not to mention the grading panel.

Since you own neither a SCRATCH nor a Resolve, what do you base this on - demos at trade shows? Really? Do you also believe every word the car salesman tells you? Not trying to pick on you specifically, but it's comments like this that have made me stay away from this thread.

I work and earn my salary in the real world - with real shipping products and real customers who have clients breathing down their necks. Realistically, it is another 6 months until the $999 version has a real foothold and the market can decide what to do with it. That's a lifetime in the post-production software world.

The Blackmagic announcement is exciting... I love disruptive technology and disruptive announcements. It makes people think hard and work hard, and usually the industry is better for it.

But not *one* person on this thread has seen anything other than a trade show demo of this product. Not one. And if you believe everything you see in a floor demo at NAB, I've got some lake property in the Mojave to sell you...

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
------------
Reality Police
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 04:08 PM

You are right six months is a very long time... lets hope they release Davinci Resolve for Mac even sooner. Since I'm basing my decisions on demos at trade shows and the capabilities and features that I see online...and I could be very very wrong... what features in Scratch makes it better than the Davinci Resolve grading panel and linux 4k clusters for realtime 4k performance?

BTW... wasn't Davinci Resolve released in 2004 and already has a market presence/reputation?

David Battistella

04-18-2010, 04:21 PM

Color me surprised. Didn't know that...

Yep,

actually, with the new framework you can also work with 4.5K material.

1.5 is a much improved version.

David

Sid Idris

04-18-2010, 04:45 PM

...Realistically, it is another 6 months until the $999 version has a real foothold and the market can decide what to do with it. That's a lifetime in the post-production software world....

6 months is not a lifetime (rather a blink of an eye). The wait list for R1's was 2 years long. Even the consumer Canon t2i is backordered (little over 2 months).

Red proved, a solid demo with great specs at an affordable price (understatement) will build more anticipation than skepticism during the wait.

exciting times.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 06:47 PM

what features in Scratch makes it better than the Davinci Resolve grading panel and linux 4k clusters for realtime 4k performance?

something else we need to ask here: Is Resolve a real conform and finishing tool? My understanding of Scratch (most likely purchasing soon) is it's a conform tool with grading capabilities. As a start up, I'm looking for a system to finish features on that can effectively: Transcode 4K R3D to HD for cutting in FCP, ingest the 4K back in conformed to edit with XML, perform color grade, bring in composites from Flame, bring in audio 2 track (from my mix to picture environment) and output in 2K DPX, HD, whatever I need for each specific project finish. I'm honestly not convinced that Resolve is meant for anything but color grade...and would like to know if that's correct or not. Still researching, and finding it's hard to get a straight answer from the companies themselves, so would like some input from users.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 07:00 PM

Paul these are all good questions and I'm genuinely curious to seek the answers myself. I do like seeing stuff with davinci resolve that talks about power mastering, TLC... the more that I quickly inform myself is the more I realize what I've been ignorant of all these years. I'm sure this debate will iron out the decisions that many are now compelled to make.

I would love to see someone from Scratch highlight these differences. Is Scratch capable of Power Mastering or working directly with a telecine or ingesting tape? I know Scratch is reported as a file based architecture... I would love to know if that means it's limited/doesn't accept film or tape ingest.

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 07:45 PM

But not *one* person on this thread has seen anything other than a trade show demo of this product. Not one. And if you believe everything you see in a floor demo at NAB, I've got some lake property in the Mojave to sell you...

Lucas

Well we are all speculating here. I do agree with you the comments and arguments against scratch are absolutely baseless until Resolve ships. Luckily it wont take 6 months for us to use it.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 07:53 PM

Resolve shipped in 2004... the mac version allows you to scale upto Linux Resolve. So albeit we may not know how the mac version will perform... we do have a clue how the Linux version for only 50k with impresario panel will. That's the version I plan to get.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 08:19 PM

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 08:29 PM

I would love to see someone from Scratch highlight these differences. Is Scratch capable of Power Mastering or working directly with a telecine or ingesting tape? I know Scratch is reported as a file based architecture... I would love to know if that means it's limited/doesn't accept film or tape ingest.

From what I've seen on the Assimilate site, Scratch can ingest from decks and film scanners. For me personally, I'm not looking to jump into handling Telecine or doing the actual film print, so in those cases I would work closely with a film lab. I'm more focused on the work in between the Telecine and film out. Also in my case I'll be working with mostly digital cinema vs shot on film.
Still, will keep looking into whether Resolve is a conform and mastering tool or strictly color. So far haven't read anything about Resolve and audio ability.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 08:35 PM

Since you own neither a SCRATCH nor a Resolve, what do you base this on - demos at trade shows? Really? Do you also believe every word the car salesman tells you? Not trying to pick on you specifically, but it's comments like this that have made me stay away from this thread.

I work and earn my salary in the real world - with real shipping products and real customers who have clients breathing down their necks. Realistically, it is another 6 months until the $999 version has a real foothold and the market can decide what to do with it. That's a lifetime in the post-production software world.

The Blackmagic announcement is exciting... I love disruptive technology and disruptive announcements. It makes people think hard and work hard, and usually the industry is better for it.

But not *one* person on this thread has seen anything other than a trade show demo of this product. Not one. And if you believe everything you see in a floor demo at NAB, I've got some lake property in the Mojave to sell you...

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
------------
Reality Police
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

How anyone could have seen anything, other than the demo at the show? Resolve on the Mac is very, very early beta of the product. It was just barely ported in time for NAB. But I'm curious, Lucas. It is easy to play lip service to love of disruptive technologies and announcements, but are you really excited about the announcement and why? What do you personally believe are misconceptions about Resolve, that were discussed previously?

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 08:38 PM

Not sure what's Power Mastering

PowerMastering: Multiple resolution deliverables from a single master session enables you to grade in up to 2k using the R-series up to the R-350, and in 4k on the R-4K and output to 4k, 2k HD, SD 16:9, SD 4:3 and other media formats in real time.

Arttie Puig

04-18-2010, 08:39 PM

How many more times and how many more ways do you need to say the same thing? You think Resolve will put Assimilate out of business. We get it. I was trying to expand this into a more sensible and general conversation, and offer a view from another end of the industry. That's clearly a conversation you don't seem to want to take part in.

Lol! You seem to be saying the same thing also!
I don't mind expanding the conversation, but sometimes you get annoying when you want to force on to others your point of view like you have the final word on everything.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 08:40 PM

Not sure what's Power Mastering, but on Scratch no on telecine control and yes on tape ingest. BTW, why do you care about telecine control? Do you have Spirit laying around somewhere?

Jake, why don't you lay off with the hostile attitude? It doesn't help anyone and cheapens this forum. We should be helping each other, not trying to prove how much we know to everyone else.

M Most

04-18-2010, 08:43 PM

LOL! Look who's talking!

(sigh.....)

Sometimes I really don't know why I still post here. But at least on this topic, I'm done.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 08:48 PM

LOL!

Artie,

do you know for sure if Resolve is a conform and mastering tool as well as grading? What kind of compositing and audio compatibility if so? If Resolve is really just a grading tool, then it can't be something that would compete with Scratch outside of grading. For grading, yes, I believe DaVinci is going to be superior at the moment, but I think we are comparing tools that also do quite different tasks. But am trying to get confirmation on Resolves functionality other than grading.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 08:48 PM

So far haven't read anything about Resolve and audio ability.

Chapter 4 of the manual does have a section on audio conforming.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 08:48 PM

Jake, why don't you lay off with the hostile attitude? It doesn't help anyone and cheapens this forum. We should be helping each other, not trying to prove how much we know to everyone else.

??? Andrae asked a question and I'd answered. Andrae were you offended with my answer? If you were, I apologize...

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 08:53 PM

Artie,

do you know for sure if Resolve is a conform and mastering tool as well as grading? What kind of compositing and audio compatibility if so? If Resolve is really just a grading tool, then it can't be something that would compete with Scratch outside of grading. For grading, yes, I believe DaVinci is going to be superior at the moment, but I think we are comparing tools that also do quite different tasks. But am trying to get confirmation on Resolves functionality other than grading.

Compositing in Scratch? Good luck. As a matter of fact, good luck trying compositing on any other color grading systems...

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 08:56 PM

??? Andrae asked a question and I'd answered. Andrae were you offended with my answer? If you were, I apologize...

I'm a Marine... I have leatherneck skin. The reason why I wanted to know about telecine control is because I would like to know the limitations of each system. I also don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility for our company to acquire a telecine machine.

---

Paul have you read the resolve manual? Anyone know where I can get the scratch finishing manual?

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 09:04 PM

Compositing in Scratch? Good luck. As a matter of fact, good luck trying compositing on any other color grading systems...

not looking to perform actual creative composite work in Scratch, will be using Flame for that, but would like to take finished output from Flame and drop on top of my graded video layer in Scratch if possible. Otherwise would have to provide graded 2K to Flame, output composite work from Flame including the base video layer and insert edit back in Scratch. The concern would be color shifts in the base video going from Scratch to Flame and back to Scratch.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 09:12 PM

not looking to perform actual creative composite work in Scratch, will be using Flame for that, but would like to take finished output from Flame and drop on top of my graded video layer in Scratch if possible. Otherwise would have to provide graded 2K to Flame, output composite work from Flame including the base video layer and insert edit back in Scratch. The concern would be color shifts in the base video going from Scratch to Flame and back to Scratch.

Than all you're talking about is an ability to drop the VFX shot into already graded time line, so existing grade gets applied to it. Then the answer is yes, Resolve can do it very easily. It's a standard feature on pretty much all of grading systems.

Arttie Puig

04-18-2010, 09:13 PM

Artie,

do you know for sure if Resolve is a conform and mastering tool as well as grading? What kind of compositing and audio compatibility if so? If Resolve is really just a grading tool, then it can't be something that would compete with Scratch outside of grading. For grading, yes, I believe DaVinci is going to be superior at the moment, but I think we are comparing tools that also do quite different tasks. But am trying to get confirmation on Resolves functionality other than grading.

To be honest I don't know, I never used it myself, I know my favorite colorists use mostly DaVinci, and for quite a while, so the conform obviously have to be done before proceeding with the grading. I would believe you can, but if not I'm sure there should be plenty of workflows.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 09:15 PM

From what I've seen on the Assimilate site, Scratch can ingest from decks and film scanners.

I was on their site trying to find out if telecine capablity exist. I didn't see anything while doing a cursary glance... can you confrm this?

Paul... Yes resolve is a conform and mastering tool with support for multiple EDLs and Quad playhead. The capabilities are listed in Chapter 4 of the manual.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 09:20 PM

I'm a Marine... I have leatherneck skin. The reason why I wanted to know about telecine control is because I would like to know the limitations of each system. I also don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility for our company to acquire a telecine machine.

---

Paul have you read the resolve manual? Anyone know where I can get the scratch finishing manual?

Are you interested in real time grading or just film scanning? You can do much better with a scanner, than with traditional telecine. At this point only Davinci, Baselight and Filmmaster can control telecine, but all BL and FM do are directing telecine to output video and then it gets captured as a stream of DPX with an I/O card for color grading. Also, film scanners are much cheaper and produce far better quality images, while being just a little bit slower.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 09:26 PM

I'm more interested in real time color grading upto 4k but would like to know the system in and out to compare how they stack up to each other.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 09:28 PM

I was on their site trying to find out if telecine capablity exist. I didn't see anything while doing a cursary glance... can you confrm this?

Paul... Yes resolve is a conform and mastering tool with support for multiple EDLs and Quad playhead. The capabilities are listed in Chapter 4 of the manual.

Resolve's conforming capabilities are pretty standard- EDL and Cut List, not sure about ALE. Resolve doesn't support multiple layer timelline, so there is no plans to support at this time XML or AAF. Big ommisions, but not that suprising.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 09:42 PM

Than all you're talking about is an ability to drop the VFX shot into already graded time line, so existing grade gets applied to it. Then the answer is yes, Resolve can do it very easily. It's a standard feature on pretty much all of grading systems.

Understood. So the complete question I have about Resolve is can it address the ENTIRE following work-flow: I would need to first transcode 20-25 hours of 4K R3D to ProRes, I would then edit with the transcoded ProRes in FCP, make an XML (or EDL, but prefer XML if possible) of the sequence, ingest into Resolve
as a conformed 2K DPX Log sequence, perform color grade (of course), drop VFX on top of graded base video, bring audio 2 track in from mix to pix source, output all as 2K DPX file based or to tape (HDCam SR). If Resolve can serve all of that, then I would agree it's a serious problem for Scratch, especially because of the color grade being DaVinci. Just trying to find the best all in one finishing solution for the money.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 09:46 PM

there is no plans to support at this time XML or AAF. Big ommisions, but not that suprising.

AAF is supported... Chapter 4 speaks of loading EDL or AAF.

Lucas Wilson

04-18-2010, 09:51 PM

...Just trying to find the best all in one finishing solution for the money.

Hey Paul (and everyone else...)

If anybody wants to learn about SCRATCH *specifically* in terms of what it really does and doesn't do - an open listserv/forum is not the place to do it.

I encourage anyone who wants to learn more to email me off-list:

lucas (at) assimilateinc (dot) com.

We are a small company, but we have employees and partners all over the world and can get just about anyone a personal demonstration in a fairly short amount of time.

I may take a day or two getting back to you, but I will get back to you.

Conversations between people about SCRATCH and Resolve who own neither system makes my eyes cross.

Lucas

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 09:53 PM

If Resolve can serve all of that, then I would agree it's a serious problem for Scratch, especially because of the color grade being DaVinci. Just trying to find the best all in one finishing solution for the money.

I'm not an expert by any means... but yes it does seem from all my reading so far that Resolve can do that.

Tim Whitcomb

04-18-2010, 09:57 PM

But not *one* person on this thread has seen anything other than a trade show demo of this product. Not one. And if you believe everything you see in a floor demo at NAB, I've got some lake property in the Mojave to sell you...

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
------------
Reality Police
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks for chiming in man. You crack me up! In the best and most respectful way... the levity and common sense are welcome!

Seriously, is Black Magic not representing on these boards like Arri is?

We ordered the software and we shall see

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 09:59 PM

Resolve does do AAF, thats what we sent to the colorist here in LA, there is no reason why resolve mac wont be able in the long run to do XML import. Its a simple text based data file

Resolve's conforming capabilities are pretty standard- EDL and Cut List, not sure about ALE. Resolve doesn't support multiple layer timelline, so there is no plans to support at this time XML or AAF. Big ommisions, but not that suprising.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 09:59 PM

Understood. So the complete question I have about Resolve is can it address the ENTIRE following work-flow: I would need to first transcode 20-25 hours of 4K R3D to ProRes, I would then edit with the transcoded ProRes in FCP, make an XML (or EDL, but prefer XML if possible) of the sequence, ingest into Resolve
as a conformed 2K DPX Log sequence, perform color grade (of course), drop VFX on top of graded base video, bring audio 2 track in from mix to pix source, output all as 2K DPX file based or to tape (HDCam SR). If Resolve can serve all of that, then I would agree it's a serious problem for Scratch, especially because of the color grade being DaVinci. Just trying to find the best all in one finishing solution for the money.

No XML, just EDL. You can conform your project from EDL using transcoded Prores or even better way, conform with original r3d, grade everything with 1/2 debayer up to 2k in real time and render out whatever you'd like, including 2k DPX with full quality r3d debayer. And, you can export DPX to VFX and then drop them back in. There is one thing Scratch can't do and that is an ability to write Prores. So, in a word, you can do all of it with no problem...

Arttie Puig

04-18-2010, 10:04 PM

But not *one* person on this thread has seen anything other than a trade show demo of this product. Not one. And if you believe everything you see in a floor demo at NAB, I've got some lake property in the Mojave to sell you...

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
------------
Reality Police
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

First of all, I used Scratch and I love it, I think it's overpriced, even before BM announcement, but price aside, I love the soft.
But, I'm reading this, and I can't stop thinking, Lucas, you do demos at NAB too, shouldn't we believe you now?

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 10:08 PM

Resolve does do AAF, thats what we sent to the colorist here in LA, there is no reason why resolve mac wont be able in the long run to do XML import. Its a simple text based data file

According to the BM director of software development, there is no support nor there are plans for aaf or xml. Down the road, who knows... But just because you're sending aaf to the post house doesn't mean, that the conforming is done on Resolve. You can send me aaf file and I would gladly use it, but I grade on Lustre and it also only supports EDL and Cut Liist. What's the point of using aaf on Resolve, if it doesn't support multiple layered timeline?

Mark Pedersen

04-18-2010, 10:09 PM

If not, it's Color with a more reputable name.

Mike,

Well, with all due respect, Davinci has been around a lot longer than color...

M

Lucas Wilson

04-18-2010, 10:15 PM

Compositing in Scratch? Good luck.

See a demo of SCRATCH v5.1 before you go down that road any further.

How anyone could have seen anything, other than the demo at the show? Resolve on the Mac is very, very early beta of the product. It was just barely ported in time for NAB.

Right. So it is months away from shipping, and has zero actual customers in that configuration. Nobody knows how the 1K config will actually work. Many talk about it as if they had worked with it extensively and were intimately familiar with its configuration and execution. Reality = nobody knows. Resolve in its pre-BM configuration is a complex blend of hw/sw in an integrated Linux-based system. A port to OSX software-only is a huge undertaking.

It will take several months for it to shake out after it ships. I'm not saying this as a competitor wishing ill on the product. I'm saying it as someone who has worked for post-production software manufacturers for a good deal of my professional career and is realistic and knowledgeable about the process from an inside perspective.

But I'm curious, Lucas. It is easy to play lip service to love of disruptive technologies and announcements, but are you really excited about the announcement and why?

1) I believe the pricing models for dedicated systems in the post-production world are wildly out-of-skew. ASSIMILATE has been a fairly large disruptor in its market and has forced other manufacturers to respond accordingly in some ways. I believe the new Resolve pricing structure will continue that necessary trend in the industry.

2) Regardless of the actual realtime capabilities of the 1K Resolve when it ships... one thing it absolutely WILL do is put more creative power in the hands of people who previously could not afford it. And more power to the creatives is always a good thing in my book.

3) Companies making moves like this make my job continually more interesting. : )

Lucas

Tim Whitcomb

04-18-2010, 10:17 PM

No XML, just EDL. You can conform your project from EDL using transcoded Prores or even better way, conform with original r3d, grade everything with 1/2 debayer up to 2k in real time and render out whatever you'd like, including 2k DPX with full quality r3d debayer. And, you can export DPX to VFX and then drop them back in. There is one thing Scratch can't do and that is an ability to write Prores. So, in a word, you can do all of it with no problem...

Hi Jake-

Curious, do you really work in less than 4K FUll Debayer when monitoring your color grade? Ive heard Deanan or someone say they would rather us use RR and get a full debayer beforehand and grade with Prores4444 then use a 2K half debayer of the r3d. If playback is an issue.

are you concerned at all since lots of information is missing in the half debayer? Yeah I know its there on render, but does it look the same?

thanks

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 10:21 PM

or even better way, conform with original r3d...There is one thing Scratch can't do and that is an ability to write Prores

Yes, would definitely be conforming to 2K DPX from 4K R3D, ProRes would only be for offline cutting. Surprised to hear Scratch can't transcode to ProRes. I'm also looking at Baselight, and I'm finding it very impressive as well. For me, if I went with Resolve, I would go the full $50,000 software / Controller / Linux License, and even adding in the Linux hardware cost, Resolve looks very good.
I will contact Lucas about a Scratch demo, meanwhile, looking at online video demos.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 10:22 PM

According to the BM director of software development, there is no support nor there are plans for aaf or xml. Down the road, who knows... But just because you're sending aaf to the post house doesn't mean, that the conforming is done on Resolve. You can send me aaf file and I would gladly use it, but I grade on Lustre and it also only supports EDL and Cut Liist. What's the point of using aaf on Resolve, if it doesn't support multiple layered timeline?

well the manual states that AAF is supported... you can check it yourself like I just did... Chapter 4 Page 63.

Lucas Wilson

04-18-2010, 10:30 PM

First of all, I used Scratch and I love it, I think it's overpriced, even before BM announcement, but price aside, I love the soft.
But, I'm reading this, and I can't stop thinking, Lucas, you do demos at NAB too, shouldn't we believe you now?

I sorta saw that one coming... : )

Two answers to that:

1) There is a huge difference between a demo of a shipping and non-shipping product. With SCRATCH, you can get a list of customers to go talk to for unbiased opinions, and an eval license of the software so you can judge for yourself.

Resolve falls in an in-between space. There are many Resolve systems out there doing great work. For the record - I think Resolve is an awesome system. The first time I saw the tracker, I thought, "damn... we've got some work to do..."

But the OSX 1K version has not shipped and is not being used. So it (obviously) irritates me when people make sweeping claims about functionality when there isn't a single actual user!

2) If you see me doing a demo, you should absolutely not believe me. : )

Lucas

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 10:32 PM

According to the BM director of software development, there is no support nor there are plans for aaf or xml. Down the road, who knows... But just because you're sending aaf to the post house doesn't mean, that the conforming is done on Resolve. You can send me aaf file and I would gladly use it, but I grade on Lustre and it also only supports EDL and Cut Liist. What's the point of using aaf on Resolve, if it doesn't support multiple layered timeline?

Emm Jake Resolve is what was used to color 2 music videos of ours, we sent the Davinci colorist in Burbank AAF files

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 10:34 PM

Hi Jake-

Curious, do you really work in less than 4K FUll Debayer when monitoring your color grade? Ive heard Deanan or someone say they would rather us use RR and get a full debayer beforehand and grade with Prores4444 then use a 2K half debayer of the r3d. If playback is an issue.

are you concerned at all since lots of information is missing in the half debayer? Yeah I know its there on render, but does it look the same?

thanks

Presently I don't work with r3d files for grading. I grade with DPX, that are always fully conformed and always debayered at full quality. If you're concerned with the quality difference during the grade, you can always quickly switch to full debayer and do the quick render, but I don't think it will be an issue. BTW, I'm a true believer of always doing a full debayer at the end, but I also belive, that full debayer mainly affects details in the picture and not the color. I'm also a true believer of NEVER grading with the compressed codec, such as Prores, if I can help it.

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 10:35 PM

I sorta saw that one coming... : )

Two answers to that:

1) There is a huge difference between a demo of a shipping and non-shipping product. With SCRATCH, you can get a list of customers to go talk to for unbiased opinions, and an eval license of the software so you can judge for yourself.

Resolve falls in an in-between space. There are many Resolve systems out there doing great work. For the record - I think Resolve is an awesome system. The first time I saw the tracker, I thought, "damn... we've got some work to do..."

But the OSX 1K version has not shipped and is not being used. So it (obviously) irritates me when people make sweeping claims about functionality when there isn't a single actual user!

2) If you see me doing a demo, you should absolutely not believe me. : )

Lucas

ha ha nice one :)

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 10:39 PM

Emm Jake Resolve is what was used to color 2 music videos of ours, we sent the Davinci colorist in Burbank AAF files

You wanna test me? Go ahead and send me AAF and I'll grade it on my Lustre, which doesn't support AAF:-)

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 10:40 PM

I'm a Marine... I have leatherneck skin.

Sincere thanks for your service to our country. Always a pleasure to hear there's a wide political demographic in the film biz!

Haven't read the Resolve manual, but given it's so far off in shipping, I'll need to go in another direction, Scratch or Baselight so far. Scratch manual seems to be very difficult to find online.

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 10:43 PM

You wanna test me? Go ahead and send me AAF and I'll grade it on my Lustre, which doesn't support AAF:-)

I don't want to test you Jake, ha ha. Now Now don't start a lustre vs vaporware resolve debate LOL:)

Lucas Wilson

04-18-2010, 10:43 PM

If you're concerned with the quality difference during the grade, you can always quickly switch to full debayer and do the quick render, but I don't think it will be an issue.

I used to agree with this statement.

And then I had 100+ customers beat me about the head and shoulders with pointy sticks.

It is absolutely an issue.

Lucas

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 10:47 PM

See a demo of SCRATCH v5.1 before you go down that road any further.

Lucas

Actually I'd like to go that road. What kind of compositing we're talking here?
Do you support multiple layers in the timeline, transfer modes, 3D space, 3D or object tracking, any kind of sophisticated keyer beyond the standard 6 vector one, expressions, scripting, roto etc? Just curios, why one would need to do it on very expensive Scratch or Pablo station, if simple after effects will suffice?

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 10:51 PM

I used to agree with this statement.

And then I had 100+ customers beat me about the head and shoulders with pointy sticks.

It is absolutely an issue.

Lucas

How so? Just you're saying so, doesn't mean it's a fact...
BTW, if 1/2 debayer is an issue DURING the grade, just switch to fully debayered DPX, a-la FilmMaster (it's totally transparent to the user) and get on with life.

Arttie Puig

04-18-2010, 10:55 PM

I sorta saw that one coming... : )

2) If you see me doing a demo, you should absolutely not believe me. : )

Lucas

Hats off to you sir!

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 10:59 PM

Sincere thanks for your service to our country. Always a pleasure to hear there's a wide political demographic in the film biz!

Haven't read the Resolve manual, but given it's so far off in shipping, I'll need to go in another direction, Scratch or Baselight so far. Scratch manual seems to be very difficult to find online.

it's no brainer. Expense aside, At $95k Baselight would be my very first and only choice.

Andrae Palmer

04-18-2010, 11:03 PM

As Jake said I think that's an easy decision... thank God to Scratch or whatever that made them reduce their price below 100k. A panel is included right?

Jorge Torrens

04-18-2010, 11:09 PM

How so? Just you're saying so, doesn't mean it's a fact...
BTW, if 1/2 debayer is an issue DURING the grade, just switch to fully debayered DPX, a-la FilmMaster (it's totally transparent to the user) and get on with life.

We're grading this very moment a feature shot in Red in Lustre for a filmout, in a very high end facility in Madrid, and it only works in realtime in half good, not full debayer, but to be honest this hasn't been a problem at all. We ocasionally switch to full debayer to check a few shots, mostly shots with high frecuency detail, but the color perception is about the same working in half or full. The final renders are done in full debayer.

Paul Buhl

04-18-2010, 11:09 PM

it's no brainer. Expense aside, At $95k Baselight would be my very first and only choice.

Thanks for the insight. Checked out your reel and site, top shelf work for sure. One of my business partners is Bruce Bolden, a 20 year veteran colorist also, so I understand the value of what you do. Baselight looks phenomenal.

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 11:20 PM

We're grading this very moment a feature shot in Red in Lustre for a filmout, in a very high end facility in Madrid, and it only works in realtime in half good, not full debayer, but to be honest this hasn't been a problem at all. We ocasionally switch to full debayer to check a few shots, mostly shots with high frecuency detail, but the color perception is about the same working in half or full. The final renders are done in full debayer.

With Lustre 2011 your windows system can access Red Rocket through wiretap gateway server on a Mac

Jorge Torrens

04-18-2010, 11:30 PM

With Lustre 2011 your windows system can access RED Rocket™™ through wiretap gateway server on a Mac

We are working in 2010 in Linux , we finish the grading this week so I guess that changing to 2011 at this time is out of the question :sad:

But as I said, neither the DOP, nor I, the producer who also happen to have worked as a colorist in episodic TV, have found that grading in half and ocasionally changing to full for checking is really a problem, also don't forget that the final render is done in full debayer.

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:31 PM

Thanks for the insight. Checked out your reel and site, top shelf work for sure. One of my business partners is Bruce Bolden, a 20 year veteran colorist also, so I understand the value of what you do. Baselight looks phenomenal.

Thanks Paul:thumbup:

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:35 PM

As Jake said I think that's an easy decision... thank God to Scratch or whatever that made them reduce their price below 100k. A panel is included right?

I'm not sure, if it's included. I wasn't invited to the private demo:-)
But if it is, you can drop the panel (I belive it's around $35k) and just use JL Cooper. That would make it a $60k full GPU accelerated Baselight. Pretty insane...

shashbugu

04-18-2010, 11:38 PM

jake blackstone

04-18-2010, 11:51 PM

Wow. Do you think there will be a Lustre for Mac?

That's what I was hoping for, with Smoke on Mac and all, but alas, there wasn't even Lustre running anywhere in sight at Autodesk booth. Pretty disappointing...
Actually, speaking of Autodesk and Lustre. it's funny, but from talking with guys from DaVinci, I was told, that Autodesk was very determined to buy Davinci, before BM swooped in and bought it from under them. DaVinci employees were relieved, as it was understood, that Autodesk was planning just close daVinci for good. I'm sure, now after the announcement, Autodesk wish, that they did buy DaVinci and closed it down...

Barend Onneweer

04-19-2010, 02:36 AM

As for compositing in Scratch: a very vfx-heavy feature (The Storm) was graded and finished on Scratch in The Netherlands using Scratch to composite all the vfx elements like additional rain plates and water elements. Sort of like a 'poor mans Flame' (haha...). Elements were prepared on Flame or other tools and brought into Scratch as separate elements to be able to tweak for continuity etc.

I haven't seen 5.1 yet, but 5.0 does many (unlimited?) layers and blend modes. I wouldn't compare it to a compositor (yet) but it's nice to be able to have some elements separate when applying heavy grades (additional layers of rain being a good example). It doesn't do 3D tracking and I've stayed away from using 3rd party plugins (although OFX is supported) thus far.

I'm told 5.1 will have more in that direction but haven't touched it yet. Considering my background as a compositor I love to have some control over separate elements while grading, although some colorists may cringe at the thought.

Audio on the other hand is extremely limited in Scratch - but I personally don't care much. The risk of these types of applications is that they might end up being a 'jack of all trades, master of none'. After Effects has this tendency for instance. Feature-wise it's way more powerful and flexible than Scratch. But grading on it is a b!tch.

Barend

lionel2p

04-19-2010, 06:51 AM

That's what I was hoping for, with Smoke on Mac and all, but alas, there wasn't even Lustre running anywhere in sight at Autodesk booth. Pretty disappointing...
Actually, speaking of Autodesk and Lustre. it's funny, but from talking with guys from DaVinci, I was told, that Autodesk was very determined to buy Davinci, before BM swooped in and bought it from under them. DaVinci employees were relieved, as it was understood, that Autodesk was planning just close daVinci for good. I'm sure, now after the announcement, Autodesk wish, that they did buy DaVinci and closed it down...

Yes, surprising for Luster at NAB. A Luster Mac could be a great thing and a good answer to BM Resolve. By the way, Smoke is an incredible conforming, compositing and finishing tool and it saves my life everyday on linux. The price drop was difficult for Smoke Advanced users to accept, but that's the way it goes...I'm more angry at Autodesk because they didn't made anything for Linux users like they did for Flare. But I don't want to kill Smoke because it's cheaper. It's a killing machine.

So I don't see the point with Resolve on Mac. Yes, it's not in the market for now, a few people tested it, but there's no reason at all to expect a pure shit or a non working app. BM contracted a big team for developpement. They can do what they tell, no doubt. Great colorists use Resolve and DaVinci for years. It would be "snobbish" to give up Davinci because it's now 995$...

For small (and bigger) companies, this annoucement is really important on many aspects. Potentially, you can make a small grading room for 15 K$ and cover from SD to 2K grading. Enough to change the grading market.

And for Assimilate, just a thought : when I was looking for a workflow two years ago, my country resseler told me it was the future solution for 1/5 the price of existing "big iron" on the market. So the price point was an argument, a big one. And the capabilities of the station was just on the paper for me, like today BM Resolve.

I've seen here dozen of threads comparing Scratch to Luster or Quantel without a real knowledge of other stations (do a search, easy to find) and nobody complains about that.

Andrae Palmer

04-19-2010, 07:04 AM

I'm not sure, if it's included. I wasn't invited to the private demo:-)
But if it is, you can drop the panel (I belive it's around $35k) and just use JL Cooper. That would make it a $60k full GPU accelerated Baselight. Pretty insane...

FilmLight launches low entry price point for Baselight at NAB 2010

Baselight includes a GPU renderer, Blackboard control surface, Baselight Kompressor and 12TB formatted RAID 5 storage as standard.

http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/news_events/news/article/20100410_newbaselight

Andrae Palmer

04-19-2010, 07:12 AM

Resolve's conforming capabilities are pretty standard- EDL and Cut List, not sure about ALE. Resolve doesn't support multiple layer timelline, so there is no plans to support at this time XML or AAF. Big ommisions, but not that suprising.

According to the BM director of software development, there is no support nor there are plans for aaf or xml. Down the road, who knows... But just because you're sending aaf to the post house doesn't mean, that the conforming is done on Resolve. You can send me aaf file and I would gladly use it, but I grade on Lustre and it also only supports EDL and Cut Liist. What's the point of using aaf on Resolve, if it doesn't support multiple layered timeline?

Davinci Resolve User Manual... Chapter 4... Page 63:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4534922012_5e60715062_o.png

shashbugu

04-19-2010, 07:28 AM

@ Andrae I like how you have Davinci coming soon to your facility

Steve Das

04-19-2010, 07:36 AM

...For small (and bigger) companies, this annoucement is really important on many aspects. Potentially, you can make a small grading room for 15 K$ and cover from SD to 2K grading. Enough to change the grading market....

How could this grading room be done on only $15K...?

Seems like monitors alone could take up the whole expense...

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 08:11 AM

Davinci Resolve User Manual... Chapter 4... Page 63:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4534922012_5e60715062_o.png

I wonder, if AAF capability will apply to Mac version, as I specifically asked about it no less, than 2 different people (director of software development and the demo artist, who's a colorist from their Singapore facility) and both stated, that EDL and Cut list was the only recognized formats. I even asked the demo artist to see the conforming dialog, but he wouldn't show, stating, that's it just a standard EDL interface. I suspect, because Resolve on a Mac was so new to everyone, that as a result I was getting some conflicting info from both of them... I know I was pretty adamant on no AAF support and, frankly, I still feel the same way even after seeing it with my lying eyes. I just can't understand what is the point of AAF support, if the software doesn't support multi layered timeline. There are some other unexpected omissions, that I was surprised to see, such as no stabilization, no ability to reuse or copy the tracking info for different shapes (no biggie, as it seems, that the tracker is even faster, than in Lustre or FilmMaster), no noise reduction of any kind ($1495 for Revival. I start seeing the trend) and the most puzzling, no TIFF support.
Actually, there was another omission, that was THE most surprising. Mac Resolve has no HDMI or DVI dual monitor mode! So, if you planning to grade it on your Dream color or any other kind of HDMI or DVI monitor, you'll need another piece of external hardware from BM or someone else- SDI to HDMI converter. I pointed out to BM, that at $995 people not are looking to grade on SDI monitors and it would be very important to have the dual monitor mode right out of the box, so he agreed, that's this is something they haven't consider and wrote it down. Also, that wold have an added benefit of freeing the PCI slot for something else, like RR (no support at this point). Will see, but I doubt, if it'll make it in. This way they will be losing the sale of an SDI I/O card and they make no secret, that that was the plan from the get go to drive the sales of BM hardware through the loss leader Resolve on the Mac.

shashbugu

04-19-2010, 08:35 AM

I wonder, if AAF capability will apply to Mac version, as I specifically asked about it no less, than 2 different people (director of software development and the demo artist, who's a colorist from their Singapore facility) and both stated, that EDL and Cut list was the only recognized formats. I even asked the demo artist to see the conforming dialog, but he wouldn't show, stating, that's it just a standard EDL interface. I suspect, because Resolve on a Mac was so new to everyone, that as a result I was getting some conflicting info from both of them... I know I was pretty adamant on no AAF support and, frankly, I still feel the same way even after seeing it with my lying eyes. I just can't understand what is the point of AAF support, if the software doesn't support multi layered timeline. There are some other unexpected omissions, that I was surprised to see, such as no stabilization, no ability to reuse or copy the tracking info for different shapes (no biggie, as it seems, that the tracker is even faster, than in Lustre or FilmMaster), no noise reduction of any kind ($1495 for Revival. I start seeing the trend) and the most puzzling, no TIFF support.
Actually, there was another omission, that was THE most surprising. Mac Resolve has no HDMI or DVI dual monitor mode! So, if you planning to grade it on your Dream color or any other kind of HDMI or DVI monitor, you'll need another piece of external hardware from BM or someone else- SDI to HDMI converter. I pointed out to BM, that at $995 people not are looking to grade on SDI monitors and it would be very important to have the dual monitor mode right out of the box, so he agreed, that's this is something they haven't consider and wrote it down. Also, that wold have an added benefit of freeing the PCI slot for something else, like RR (no support at this point). Will see, but I doubt, if it'll make it in. This way they will be losing the sale of an SDI I/O card and they make no secret, that that was the plan from the get go to drive the sales of BM hardware through the loss leader Resolve on the Mac.

the collapse timeline feature for AAF export in Avid is what Ppro and FCP lack. Exporting more than two video tracks out of any NLE to EDL is a course for disaster. thats why XML export/import is far more powerful and conducive. With the new Blackmagic sdi/hdmi monitoring you would'nt need a Pcie slot (at least thats what I'm reading). You are right at this stage in the game a multi-track timeline is a necessity.

shashbugu

04-19-2010, 08:38 AM

Can the mods please create a Davinci workflow forum. I think its rather disrespectful to scratch users willing to ask important questions or discuss worflows if we keep hijacking thier forum

Andrae Palmer

04-19-2010, 08:40 AM

Perhaps I'm not understanding the usage of "multitrack timeline":

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4534537393_b925f195a6_o.png

Isn't this a multitrack timeline?

Barend Onneweer

04-19-2010, 08:43 AM

Well the whole point of this thread was to state Assimilates demise, so in that respect all the 'born-again-DaVinci-fanboyisms' would seem to be quite on-topic...

shashbugu

04-19-2010, 09:03 AM

Well the whole point of this thread was to state Assimilates demise, so in that respect all the 'born-again-DaVinci-fanboyisms' would seem to be quite on-topic...

Well lets be honest. Scratch is by far the sexiest and most straight forward finnishing tool in the biz. It is plenty powerful extremely scalable and very supportive of its cutomer base. It can edit, midly, composite, color grade, and finnish. its user interface is very very visual, the parameters are neatly displayed and the timeline is Angelic. What more can you ask for. Its the perfect tool for the Reduser. Its constantly being upgraded with lots of snazzy features standard with the industry. Is it expensive? Depends on how desperate you are for an out the box perfectly working system.
Will I buy it? I probably would buy it instead of a complicated Baselight or Lustre system.
So the question is a $995 Davinci vs a $995 Scratch. I will buy the scratch in a heart beat. The Davinci that rates with a scratch is $50,000 and it does not even do what the Scratch can do.

A company that has about 20 employees including the cleaning lady can re-invent itself and adapt very quickly. If they go software only they can sell Scratch for $5,000. Just having half of the Red, Arri, Aaton, and other evolving camera owners, including a vast list of editors, colorists etc buying licences they will do very well

Andrae Palmer

04-19-2010, 09:05 AM

What do you guys mean by a multitrack timeline? In the manual I'm seeing multiple tracks in the timeline. I know jake has used the term... "multiple layered timeline". There is a Layer Mixer Node.

Lucas Wilson

04-19-2010, 09:18 AM

Can the mods please create a Davinci workflow forum. I think its rather disrespectful to scratch users willing to ask important questions or discuss worflows if we keep hijacking thier forum

Shashbugu - I appreciate your comment, but don't worry about it. This is an interesting discussion and not disrespectful.

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE dude
LA, CA, USA

M Most

04-19-2010, 09:28 AM

Jorge Torrens

04-19-2010, 09:49 AM

What do you guys mean by a multitrack timeline? In the manual I'm seeing multiple tracks in the timeline. I know jake has used the term... "multiple layered timeline". There is a Layer Mixer Node.

The two tracks timeline in Resolve is if I'm not mistaken for dissolves, not compositing.

The Layer Mixer Node is used to combine mattes not layers.

Fredrik Harreschou

04-19-2010, 09:50 AM

Perhaps I'm not understanding the usage of "multitrack timeline":

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4534537393_b925f195a6_o.png

Isn't this a multitrack timeline?

From just looking at that image, no. I think it´s more like a container to visually represent the two layers that make up a dissolve. But I could be wrong.

Multilayered timelines usually have independent scale/position/rotation/opacity for each layer/track.

Dominic Cochran

04-19-2010, 10:03 AM

And for Assimilate, just a thought : when I was looking for a workflow two years ago, my country resseler told me it was the future solution for 1/5 the price of existing "big iron" on the market. So the price point was an argument, a big one. And the capabilities of the station was just on the paper for me, like today BM Resolve.

I've seen here dozen of threads comparing Scratch to Luster or Quantel without a real knowledge of other stations (do a search, easy to find) and nobody complains about that.

They're trying to buy time with the vaporware talk. I just wish they would have come out with a Mac version like so many were pleading for them to do before. I'm sure they'll catch up now, thanks to BM!

Lucas Wilson

04-19-2010, 10:22 AM

They're trying to buy time with the vaporware talk. I just wish they would have come out with a Mac version like so many were pleading for them to do before. I'm sure they'll catch up now, thanks to BM!

Vaporware? Huh?

What am I missing?

Lucas

mikeburton

04-19-2010, 10:46 AM

I've never used a DaVinci personally but have sat in on many sessions. I have personally completed a few features and shorter commercial projects on Scratch. I also do all my offline editing on a Mac. Do I wish Scratch was ported over to Mac? Well, yes ultimately, but I respect the reasons why they haven't yet. Until NVidia and Apple allow for an SDI daughterboard and more advanced graphics cards there really is no point. They realize that their tools run the way they do based on proper hardware configs.
I personally love their UI, wish for some better editing tools (although I realize they aren't an editing software) and hope for more RAW camera support like Phantom etc.
I would purchase a Scratch over DaVinci any day of the week right now if I had to choose. That said, with the existing Mac Hardware I have it wouldn't hurt to own and offer both.

Barend Onneweer

04-19-2010, 10:50 AM

Well lets be honest. Scratch is by far the sexiest and most straight forward finnishing tool in the biz. It is plenty powerful extremely scalable and very supportive of its cutomer base. It can edit, midly, composite, color grade, and finnish. its user interface is very very visual, the parameters are neatly displayed and the timeline is Angelic. What more can you ask for. Its the perfect tool for the Reduser. Its constantly being upgraded with lots of snazzy features standard with the industry. Is it expensive? Depends on how desperate you are for an out the box perfectly working system.
Will I buy it? I probably would buy it instead of a complicated Baselight or Lustre system.
So the question is a $995 Davinci vs a $995 Scratch. I will buy the scratch in a heart beat. The Davinci that rates with a scratch is $50,000 and it does not even do what the Scratch can do.

I'm still trying to figure out if you're being sarcastic or not... but in case you're not:

Personally I like the UI for Scratch a lot - it was key in my decision to choose Scratch. I personally preferred it over the most obvious competition in terms of price range (Speedgrade). Anything beyond Scratch was never an option for me price-wise. So if you want to call it 'sexy', I see where you're coming from ;-)

Editing? Actually I think Scratch's timeline can hardly be used for editing. Just for a fix, sure. But it's fairly minimalistic - and could use some 'love'. On the other hand, I don't need Scratch to edit so I'd rather the dev team spent their time on other things.

But for grading I like it a lot, and the development work being done in the direction of compositing suits my way of working very well.

Would I buy again today? I'd probably take a more serious look at DaVinci or Baselight, with their new pricing strategies. But I don't regret the choice I made - it's a really powerful system.

How will Assimilate respond to the price developments of the last weeks? I don't know. But one way or the other they will have to stay sharp. Which is good for everyone, isn't it?

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 11:08 AM

What do you guys mean by a multitrack timeline? In the manual I'm seeing multiple tracks in the timeline. I know jake has used the term... "multiple layered timeline". There is a Layer Mixer Node.
On the FilmMaster (I think Baselight as well) you can import AAF project and open it with all layers pretty much intact and all, just the way it was done in Avid. Them you can grade every layer independently. You also can create unlimited number of layers with transfer modes, just like in Photoshop. The multilayered timeline is very much akin to multilayered structure in AE, Smoke etc. Very powerful...
Unfortunately, ability to bring externally generated mask is pretty standard feature on pretty much any color grading system, as is to do a dissolve. DaVinci can call it anything they want, but, unfortunately, that is not multilayering. It's still just one layer.

Dominic Cochran

04-19-2010, 11:08 AM

Vaporware? Huh?

What am I missing?

Lucas

If you weren't implying it's vaporware, or at the very least, overpromising, with your comments then I have some fictitious real estate for sale in some ridiculous area.

And a public listserv is a fine place to discuss features, glad you at least changed your mind about that!

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 11:22 AM

The Davinci that rates with a scratch is $50,000 and it does not even do what the Scratch can do.
Like what?

If they go software only they can sell Scratch for $5,000. Just having half of the Red, Arri, Aaton, and other evolving camera owners, including a vast list of editors, colorists etc buying licences they will do very well
I may be mistaken, but can't you buy Scratch software only right now? I believe, that Resolve will be sold very much the same way as is Scratch. All BM will sell you is the software and, if desired, the panel. The rest is between you and the reseller, including support.

Barend Onneweer

04-19-2010, 11:26 AM

And actually the 50k Davinci comes with a control surface... So there's no argument that the pricing even for the 50k version is very attractive.

lionel2p

04-19-2010, 01:34 PM

How could this grading room be done on only $15K...?

Seems like monitors alone could take up the whole expense...

If you think Cine-tal or BVM, yes it cost a lot. Panasonic Pro 12 with Davio is 5K for exemple : alternative choice but really efficient.

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 02:08 PM

If you think Cine-tal or BVM, yes it cost a lot. Pansonic Pro 12 with Davio is 5K and very efficient.

Save your money on Davio. Resolve includes full Cinespace support. Just provide your monitor profile (just find someone with Cinespace to profile it for you) and the target profile and Resolve will build your own custom 3D monitor LUT. Resolve is world class! It's like getting Truelight thrown in for free...
Scratch? No dice...
It seems, that I keep harping at shortcomings of Scratch, but people keep comparing $70k Scratch to $1k software only Resolve or even $50k Resolve with one of the best panels out here (it was $70k only last year) and I'm just pointing out, that Resolve isn't such bad choice:-)

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 02:15 PM

This thread is starting to read like kids comparing race-cars using the specs from a magazine...

SORRY :(

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 02:26 PM

This thread is starting to read like kids comparing race-cars using the specs from a magazine...

SORRY :(
And what do you drive? I see, it's Baselight. If you don't care about the specs, how come you aren't just using Color? it does the same thing, right?:-)

Barend Onneweer

04-19-2010, 02:26 PM

This thread is starting to read like kids comparing race-cars using the specs from a magazine...

Well put...

Barend Onneweer

04-19-2010, 02:27 PM

And what do you drive? I see, it's Baselight. If you don't care about the specs, how come you aren't just using Color? it does the same thing, right?:-)

Isn't that exactly his point? They all do pretty much the same on paper...

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 02:32 PM

Isn't that exactly his point? They all do pretty much the same on paper...

My point was entirely facetious.
But from your response, it seems, that you also missed the whole point of this discussion...
Users need to make an informative decision on their tools of the trade and that is why we have forums for discussions, where information can be found.

Barend Onneweer

04-19-2010, 02:32 PM

Scratch? No dice...
It seems, that I keep harping at shortcomings of Scratch, but people keep comparing $70k Scratch to $1k software only Resolve or even $50k Resolve with one of the best panels out here (it was $70k only last year) and I'm just pointing out, that Resolve isn't such bad choice:-)

It seems... that you keep harping at imaginary shortcomings that you're making up.

Scratch can load two display Luts, one for the GUI display and one for the video out.

So if you want to make this a discussion on paper specs - you might as well read up on them...

shashbugu

04-19-2010, 02:35 PM

Like what?

I may be mistaken, but can't you buy Scratch software only right now? I believe, that Resolve will be sold very much the same way as is Scratch. All BM will sell you is the software and, if desired, the panel. The rest is between you and the reseller, including support.

uhmm I'm confused

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 02:45 PM

And what do you drive? I see, it's Baselight. If you don't care about the specs, how come you aren't just using Color? it does the same thing, right?:-)

We didn't check out specs when we bought Baselight. We just tried out the systems and picked out the one we liked the most, THEN we went about the process of acquiring. Took us better part of a Year to buy into it. are there cheaper solutions? OF COURSE. we paid a GODLY amount for it, but it has been good to us.

I suggest driving the systems first. THen choose which one you like and fits best with your clientele and then making a financial plan around that decision. Maybe it could be a loss leader for you if it gets u a ton of volume in other departments?

Also, as a small-medium facility its nice to not hear my clients mention to me how their kids have the pirated version at home :-) Believe it or not thats a HUGE PLUS in my market. I feel sorry for the facilities that have to work harder all the time to justify their rates and then they hear a comment like that one from their client. Yes its about the talent, but it doesn't help ONE BIT...

The same way you can buy it for 1K, someone else will download it for 0K.

Heard about something similar happening with scratch and smoke/flame. Its nice to not hear my client say that their kids got baselight back home.

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 02:47 PM

It seems... that you keep harping at imaginary shortcomings that you're making up.

Scratch can load two display Luts, one for the GUI display and one for the video out.

So if you want to make this a discussion on paper specs - you might as well read up on them...

Barend, did you even read my whole post on the subject? I specifically said, that Resolve can BUILD monitor LUT for the profiled monitor, just like Cinespace. Did you read that? Where and how can Scratch do that? Yes, it can LOAD prebuilt LUT, but can't BUILD it. A huge and critical difference. But what do you care? It doesn't matter, right? It's just some specs on paper...

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 02:49 PM

I wonder what the guys on TIG are saying about this...

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 02:49 PM

uhmm I'm confused

About what?

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 02:50 PM

I wonder what the guys on TIG are saying about this...

Does anyone still uses TIG anymore?

Andrae Palmer

04-19-2010, 02:56 PM

Frank,

Kids will get a pirated copy of Resolve... but it will take a very wise and rich kid to run the Linux system with impresario panel. Plus the same problems will be faced when people start saying their Linux Davinci systems can do the same job your baselight does.

lionel2p

04-19-2010, 02:58 PM

Save your money on Davio. Resolve includes full Cinespace support. Just provide your monitor profile (just find someone with Cinespace to profile it for you) and the target profile and Resolve will build your own custom 3D monitor LUT. Resolve is world class! It's like getting Truelight thrown in for free...
Scratch? No dice...
It seems, that I keep harping at shortcomings of Scratch, but people keep comparing $70k Scratch to $1k software only Resolve or even $50k Resolve with one of the best panels out here (it was $70k only last year) and I'm just pointing out, that Resolve isn't such bad choice:-)

Thank for the tip Jake, I'll keep Davio for the projector :) - OFF TOPIC- Do you have any experience with Xrite Hubble ? END OFF TOPIC.

We can discuss hours about features of every grading systems on the market but according to the passion here, game changer is the appropriate reply :)

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 03:05 PM

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 03:08 PM

We didn't check out specs when we bought Baselight. We just tried out the systems and picked out the one we liked the most, THEN we went about the process of acquiring. Took us better part of a Year to buy into it. are there cheaper solutions? OF COURSE. we paid a GODLY amount for it, but it has been good to us.

I suggest driving the systems first. THen choose which one you like and fits best with your clientele and then making a financial plan around that decision. Maybe it could be a loss leader for you if it gets u a ton of volume in other departments?

Also, as a small-medium facility its nice to not hear my clients mention to me how their kids have the pirated version at home :-) Believe it or not thats a HUGE PLUS in my market. I feel sorry for the facilities that have to work harder all the time to justify their rates and then they hear a comment like that one from their client. Yes its about the talent, but it doesn't help ONE BIT...

The same way you can buy it for 1K, someone else will download it for 0K.

Heard about something similar happening with scratch and smoke/flame. Its nice to not hear my client say that their kids got baselight back home.
A couple of years ago I had a grading facility in Kiev. I had Baselight HD and I couldn't be happier with it, but just about every other place in town had pirated copy of either Scratch or Lustre or just Color. But clients still would come over, because I was providing superior quality. Now I get jobs from all over Eastern Europe and it is not because I have high quality tools, but of the quality of my work. Now, more than ever, one needs to be informed, as to what is out there in order to be able to explain clearly and truthfully why you can provide better service, than the guy next door with pirated copy. Everyone knows Baselight and everyone knows DaVinci. So now, you can't just dismiss the little guys on purely name recognition. Now he has the same prestigious label without pirating it. And now YOU have to deliver and justify the higher price. And that you can't just buy. Reputation can only be earned...

Andrae Palmer

04-19-2010, 03:10 PM

Kids love playing with knobs... their toy doesn't have any knobs... a two year old can see the difference.

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 03:10 PM

A couple of years ago I had a grading facility in Kiev. I had Baselight HD and I couldn't be happier with it, but just about every other place in town had pirated copy of either Scratch or Lustre or just Color. But clients still would come over, because I was providing superior quality. Now I get jobs from all over Eastern Europe and it is not because I have high quality tools, but of the quality of my work. Now, more than ever, one needs to be informed, as to what is out there in order to be able to explain clearly and truthfully why you can provide better service, than the guy next door with pirated copy. Everyone knows Baselight and everyone knows DaVinci. So now, you can't just dismiss the little guys on purely name recognition. Now he has the same prestigious label without pirating it. And now YOU have to deliver and justify the higher price. And that you can't just buy. Reputation can only be earned...

Couldn't agree more!!! I am glad it's that way :hat:

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 03:11 PM

Thank for the tip Jake, I'll keep Davio for the projector :) - OFF TOPIC- Do you have any experience with Xrite Hubble ? END OFF TOPIC.

If you can afford it, that's the way to go for projector calibration and it works with Cinespace.

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 03:14 PM

Couldn't agree more!!! I am glad it's that way :hat:

Said all that, I wish I still had my Baselight. In my own opinion, it's the best overall system out there at any price. And FilmLight is an outstanding company. I'm jealous:-)

shashbugu

04-19-2010, 03:15 PM

We didn't check out specs when we bought Baselight. We just tried out the systems and picked out the one we liked the most, THEN we went about the process of acquiring. Took us better part of a Year to buy into it. are there cheaper solutions? OF COURSE. we paid a GODLY amount for it, but it has been good to us.

I suggest driving the systems first. THen choose which one you like and fits best with your clientele and then making a financial plan around that decision. Maybe it could be a loss leader for you if it gets u a ton of volume in other departments?

Also, as a small-medium facility its nice to not hear my clients mention to me how their kids have the pirated version at home :-) Believe it or not thats a HUGE PLUS in my market. I feel sorry for the facilities that have to work harder all the time to justify their rates and then they hear a comment like that one from their client. Yes its about the talent, but it doesn't help ONE BIT...

The same way you can buy it for 1K, someone else will download it for 0K.

Heard about something similar happening with scratch and smoke/flame. Its nice to not hear my client say that their kids got base-light back home.

Guess what buddy we are not your clients, I really don't care how many people pirate the software, I will buy the $995 Davinci Resolve, its a no brainer, I will also buy an BM ultra-scope. There is absolutely nothing wrong with checking out the specs on paper or discussing the short comings. There are some on this thread that own facilities just like yours or are trying to build facilities, so getting information from people like you is very relevant. there are thousands of kids pirating whatever they get their hands on 99.9% of their stuff ends up on youtube. If your clients kid has base-light at home and is talented, you should freelance jobs to him at pizza delivery prices.

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 03:20 PM

Guess what buddy we are not your clients, I really don't care how many people pirate the software, I will buy the $995 Davinci Resolve, its a no brainer, I will also buy an BM ultra-scope. There is absolutely nothing wrong with checking out the specs on paper or discussing the short comings. There are some on this thread that own facilities just like yours or are trying to build facilities, so getting information from people like you is very relevant. there are thousands of kids pirating whatever they get their hands on 99.9% of their stuff ends up on youtube. If your clients kid has base-light at home and is talented, you should freelance jobs to him at pizza delivery prices.

I used to be the guy doing the jobs for Pizza (back in 1992-94 on amiga's turbo silver) :-) got hired to work on a video toaster in exchange for RAM, all 512K's of it.

Dont get me wrong, people like you are thE best clients in the world. Once they walk in, I know they tried at home and come with a lot of respect for what we do. When it comes time to put a price on the work that makes it a LOT easier.

Matter of fact, I believe 100% of my clientele has FCP and Color and all those things, i've being hearing the demise of the "high-end" suite for decades ( alot of people forget that high-end suites come with HIGH-END service as well). The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 03:23 PM

Said all that, I wish I still had my Baselight. In my own opinion, it's the best overall system out there at any price. And FilmLight is an outstanding company. I'm jealous:-)

That's easily fixed, rent our suite :sifone::sifone:

(friendly banter, this thread is turning into a minefield, hence this disclaimer ;-) )

shashbugu

04-19-2010, 03:37 PM

I used to be the guy doing the jobs for Pizza (back in 1992-94 on amiga's turbo silver) :-) got hired to work on a video toaster in exchange for RAM, all 512K's of it.

Dont get me wrong, people like you are thE best clients in the world. Once they walk in, I know they tried at home and come with a lot of respect for what we do. When it comes time to put a price on the work that makes it a LOT easier.

Matter of fact, I believe 100% of my clientele has FCP and Color and all those things, i've being hearing the demise of the "high-end" suite for decades ( alot of people forget that high-end suites come with HIGH-END service as well). The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Good point. I actually only use facilities for commercial projects. Its just satisfying

lionel2p

04-19-2010, 04:36 PM

Of course Andrea. But someone with a 50K DaVinci will want to make some of his money back, and while you sit and wait for the $50,000 or $1,000 DaVinci, Me and the guys with all the other suites, from Pablos to Speedgrades are making money, providing service, building relationships and expanding our skills.

Succesful color rooms are not just a software, SPECIALLY when you are going to be working 10-20 days with the same guy. It takes a lot of patience and client-savy, and while you might have those skills, it doesn't mean the guy you will hire to drive it will. So you will have to stop doing all the profitable things you could do, to drive the suite.

I really could have cared less which system my colorist picked. IN all honesty, the cheapest one possible for him to feel he can deliver to his clients and not to be making up excuses. He wanted Baselight, end of story. Happy Colorist, happy Clients :-)

It will be a TON harder for the guy with the 50K DaVinci to explain how his setup is deifferent to his kid's, than for me to explain that one :-)

Frank, your facility is running for several years. I started mine 2 years ago. French market is going down for one year now :) and lot of big post companies have terrible financial problems here. All investments I'm going to make for the future are decisive. I have a young and talentuous colorist with me and a worklow killer. They are my treasure.

My clients care about those talents, about the service we provide, but they care a LOT more for money than ever. I have no problem with high-end Luster or baselight, but I know I can't have the money back with a 150 K$ station at this time. With BM annoucement, the choice is much more complicated than ever :)

Lucas Wilson

04-19-2010, 04:39 PM

Where and how can Scratch do that? Yes, it can LOAD prebuilt LUT, but can't BUILD it. A huge and critical difference.

Jake,

Yes, SCRATCH can build LUTs. Actually, SCRATCH can build 1D & 3D LUTs, as well as S.Two XML LUTs and a couple of other specific formats I can't remember.

SCRATCH can also concatenate color corrections into LUTs, combine an existing LUT with a color correction to make a new LUT (like adding a trim to an existing monitor LUT) and convert external curve data into 1D LUTs. Starting with version 4.0, we could also turn a 1D LUT into a curve that can then be exported or used in an existing SCRATCH color stack.

We can also combine LUTs on a per clip or per timeline basis. So, for instance, a user can combine a 1D + 3D + 1D LUT to get very accurate calibration.

We do not include a probe with SCRATCH. We are not a calibration company and believe others do at best. But, both Cinespacr and Truelight both output 3DL files, which is the native LUT format for SCRATCH.

In addition, we can read and output any bit-depth for LUTs' including 8-, 10-, 12-, 16-, and 32-bit float Cubes.

Best,

Lucas

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 05:00 PM

Jake,

Yes, SCRATCH can build LUTs. Actually, SCRATCH can build 1D & 3D LUTs, as well as S.Two XML LUTs and a couple of other specific formats I can't remember.

SCRATCH can also concatenate color corrections into LUTs, combine an existing LUT with a color correction to make a new LUT (like adding a trim to an existing monitor LUT) and convert external curve data into 1D LUTs. Starting with version 4.0, we could also turn a 1D LUT into a curve that can then be exported or used in an existing SCRATCH color stack.

We can also combine LUTs on a per clip or per timeline basis. So, for instance, a user can combine a 1D + 3D + 1D LUT to get very accurate calibration.

We do not include a probe with SCRATCH. We are not a calibration company and believe others do at best. But, both Cinespacr and Truelight both output 3DL files, which is the native LUT format for SCRATCH.

In addition, we can read and output any bit-depth for LUTs' including 8-, 10-, 12-, 16-, and 32-bit float Cubes.

Best,

Lucas
Hi Lucas.
That's a fine tap dance you just did. I know, that you know very well what I had meant. So, I will ask again. Say you have a projector, that you use to grade for a filmout. It can be profiled with Cinespace with Hubble probe. You can hire someone to do it for you. Then you can use the film lab to send the film patches to Cinespace and they will profile that and create for you the target profile. You just plug in both of those profiles into Resolve and presto, it will output a proper 3D Cube, that you can use for the filmout DI grading for that lab with your projector. And, yes, you can concatenate the printer light correction on top of that cube. Still want to say, that Scratch can do that? You are talking about look LUT export. Big diff...

Lucas Wilson

04-19-2010, 06:41 PM

That's a fine tap dance you just did. I know, that you know very well what I had meant.

Can you dial down the hostility a bit? ; )

So, I will ask again. ... Still want to say, that Scratch can do that?

Yes, SCRATCH can do that, and has been able to do that for a few years now. It's a fairly crucial part of the filmout workflow for many of our customers.

Lucas

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 07:25 PM

Can you dial down the hostility a bit? ; )

Yes, SCRATCH can do that, and has been able to do that for a few years now. It's a fairly crucial part of the filmout workflow for many of our customers.

Lucas

As you probably remember Lucas, in the past I was always defending Scratch, when it was unfairly attacked. I do not have personal ax to grind and personally I find Scratch to be a capable conforming and grading tool. Calling Scratch a capable compositing system is a bit of a stretch. Not having truly dedicated control panel will always be a bit of disadvantage. Any serious colorist will attest to that. And I still do not believe, that Scratch can create a monitor LUT from scratch, as I'd described. But those are small potatoes...
What truly disappoints me, are all these proclamations of happiness for BM announcement and what they have done. Frankly, I would be mad as hell, cause they just stole your business model and in the process undercut your product line by a wide margin. You're not competing with Color or Speedgrade on a low end and $500k systems on the high end anymore. So, where is your Grant Petty? Why not come out and say what you're planning to do about it. Are you planning to have any kind of an answer? You have legions of fans and they want some reassurance, that their bet and investment wasn't wrong. Instead all you're doing is harping, that it's all vaporware. Resolve on Mac exists and I saw and played with it at NAB. It's as real as Scratch.
The silence is deafening...
Edit: Actually, to be fair to Assimilate, all other companies, may be with an exception of FilmLight, are completely silent on the subject as well. But then again, none of them positioned themselves as a low cost alternative to heavy iron.

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 07:38 PM

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 07:50 PM

Come on Jake. Cut the assimilate guys a bit os Slack (they must be gathering some ideas and listening to reactions from current customers). I know a couple of 'em and I am sure they are prepping something interesting.

Frank. I have no problem with cutting Assimilate some slack. But do you really think, that unless BM didn't do the announcement, Assimilate would have done something drastic? I believe, that this turn of events should have been foreseen, knowing BM's history of disruptive pricing. It's just shortsighted corporate governance. Granted, $995 is straight out of realm of fantasy, but still...
And I think you missed the point of my rant. I want Assimilate to stand up and fight. Calling Resolve vaporware doesn't cut it...

Yohance Brown

04-19-2010, 07:52 PM

I don't get this aggression toward Assimilate right now. I thought people were happy about Resolve. Anyway does anyone know if Resolve for mac will be able to play back HD or 2k DPX files in real time? And can I import mattes created in other apps like Fusion or After Effects into Resolve?

Did anyone get a hands on demo at NAB? I'd love to hear your impressions of Resolve for mac.

David Battistella

04-19-2010, 08:08 PM

As I read through this thread, which has been both informative and entertaining, I wonder if any of this conversation would be happening if we were all standing in the same room.

I wonder if anyone would get punched in the face.

David.

Anthony Gratl

04-19-2010, 08:18 PM

I wonder if anyone would get punched in the face.

David.

Jeez Dave, that's real positive:emote_popcorn:

David Battistella

04-19-2010, 08:24 PM

Jeez Dave, that's real positive:emote_popcorn:

staying positive doesn't mean I can't be funny. I just forgot to put this in

:)

Ben Rojas

04-19-2010, 08:43 PM

Since you own neither a SCRATCH nor a Resolve, what do you base this on - demos at trade shows? Really? Do you also believe every word the car salesman tells you? Not trying to pick on you specifically, but it's comments like this that have made me stay away from this thread.

I work and earn my salary in the real world - with real shipping products and real customers who have clients breathing down their necks. Realistically, it is another 6 months until the $999 version has a real foothold and the market can decide what to do with it. That's a lifetime in the post-production software world.

The Blackmagic announcement is exciting... I love disruptive technology and disruptive announcements. It makes people think hard and work hard, and usually the industry is better for it.

But not *one* person on this thread has seen anything other than a trade show demo of this product. Not one. And if you believe everything you see in a floor demo at NAB, I've got some lake property in the Mojave to sell you...

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
------------
Reality Police
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

That's laughable Lucas... What? You guys don't preach your product on the trade show floor? You guys are just as much out for a sale so please give us a freakin' break. "Disruptive Technology", LOL, so I take it that's what RED was when they started. My take on why you're not in here commenting is that BMD, sooner than 6 months, will be handing you your ASSimilate on a plate unless you guys can figure out a business model to put Scratch out at 1K.

Gabriele Turchi

04-19-2010, 08:47 PM

Actually the sales representat
ives guys said that will ship in 2 months...

Frank Cueto

04-19-2010, 08:58 PM

Actually the sales representat
ives guys said that will ship in 2 months...

JAJAJA... I dont trust the sales guys...

Lil anecdote... about 16-17 years ago we acquired a SABRE editor from Grass Valley. IT was a VERY advanced editor that could control our K-scopes, GVG 1000 switcher and ACCOM DDR's amongst other things. It required so much power that it's interface ran on an INDY from SGI.

We received it and it worked for a couple days, afterwards it started misbehaving and we called the factory for support. We where told the SABRE didn't exist... We called and called and only our sales guy would call us back...

Long story short, it just so happened that our sales guy walked into the GVG R&D lab and sent us a beta/prototype of that system when it wasn't even in BETA (i don't know if it was a even an announced product!!! It never got finished, the guy who was the Lead engineer on it got killed on a motor-bike accident, shame..

In a nutshell, dont trust sales guys much....

Anthony Gratl

04-19-2010, 09:56 PM

staying positive doesn't mean I can't be funny. I just forgot to put this in

:)

i guess the passionate part is the actual face punching?

;) or should i say :0

Lucas Wilson

04-19-2010, 10:37 PM

My take on why you're not in here commenting is that BMD, sooner than 6 months, will be handing you your ASSimilate on a plate unless you guys can figure out a business model to put Scratch out at 1K.

ASSIMILATE doesn't base its business decisions on slightly wild-eyed "the end is near" listserv threads. If we, as a company, operated on a purely reactive tactical basis - which is what you advocate here whether you realize it or not - we would have been out of business a long time ago.

Also, our PR world is wider than REDuser. If you just feel like hearing my voice, you can listen to FXGuide's excellent NAB summary podcast, of which I am part, and where I do comment about Blackmagic and Resolve.

I also commented on it in several press interview at NAB. Whether those comments see the light of day is entirely up to those writers/editors.

Lucas

"The spot where we intend to fight must not be made known; for then the enemy will have to prepare against a possible attack at several different points; and his forces being thus distributed in many directions, the numbers we shall have to face at any given point will be proportionately few." - Sun Tzu

Lucas Wilson

04-19-2010, 11:00 PM

As you probably remember Lucas, in the past I was always defending Scratch, when it was unfairly attacked. I do not have personal ax to grind and personally I find Scratch to be a capable conforming and grading tool. Calling Scratch a capable compositing system is a bit of a stretch. Not having truly dedicated control panel will always be a bit of disadvantage. Any serious colorist will attest to that. And I still do not believe, that Scratch can create a monitor LUT from scratch, as I'd described.

Well... it does do the LUTs as you describe. I don't have anything to gain by lying about it when there are dozens of SCRATCH users that participate on Reduser and would step in and stomp on me if I was misrepresenting. : )

I really disagree on the control panel thing - but I guess we will agree to disagree there. I base my opinion on dozens of users who have Blackboards and Pablo panels in their shops, and also have a full set of Tangent CP-200s. Artists are very particular to different methods. One of ASSIMIALTE's most passionate supporters and a fairly high-level LA-based colorist grades entirely with just the CP200-BK and a mouse. He has had the entire panel suite and decided he didn't like it.

Some guys have stepped to the full CP200 series and have almost instantly loved it because of the complete customizability with SCRATCH - down to the ballistics characteristics of the trackballs. But others have played with them and *hated* them. Artists and artists and everyone prefers something slightly different.

I don't particularly like the way the Roland JC-120 sounds. Never have. It's always sounded too tinny and "abrupt" for my taste. Yet it is a massive standard, especially in the jazz world. Different strokes for different folks.

What truly disappoints me, are all these proclamations of happiness for BM announcement and what they have done. Frankly, I would be mad as hell, cause they just stole your business model and in the process undercut your product line by a wide margin.

You and I have very different perceptions of our business. Look at it this way... ASSIMILATE has been a profitable software company since our first year of operation. And anybody that has been in the software world can tell you that being in the black after year1 with a brand new product is impressive.

When Color first came out - there was an avalanche of doom and gloom and the woe that would bring to our company. The result: our next year was our best ever... because we are *not* just a color correction company, and we continued doing what we do well - selling to our strengths.

Will BM have some kind of impact on us? I'm sure it will. But ASSIMILATE's business is *much* more than just dedicated color correction units.

Knowing about ALL the aspects of our business... and where we are going... I am very confident in our continued success.

Why not come out and say what you're planning to do about it. Are you planning to have any kind of an answer? You have legions of fans and they want some reassurance, that their bet and investment wasn't wrong.

And those legions of fans and customers are, by a very large percentage, not on Reduser.

Instead all you're doing is harping, that it's all vaporware. Resolve on Mac exists and I saw and played with it at NAB. It's as real as Scratch.

Re-read my posts. I have never said vaporware. I have stated the truth - it is a very early alpha of a product that will not ship for a few months, and will take a few months after that to gain a foothold in the market.

It will be "as real as SCRATCH" (or Baselight, FilmMaster, Pablo, or Speedgrade) when it has been a shipping product to paying customers for a period of several years. Until then, it's a pre-alpha v1 product that has not shipped yet. That will change very soon. But as of today, and this conversation - that is what it is.

Lucas

jake blackstone

04-19-2010, 11:38 PM

Well... it does do the LUTs as you describe. I don't have anything to gain by lying about it when there are dozens of SCRATCH users that participate on Reduser and would step in and stomp on me if I was misrepresenting. : )

I really disagree on the control panel thing - but I guess we will agree to disagree there. I base my opinion on dozens of users who have Blackboards and Pablo panels in their shops, and also have a full set of Tangent CP-200s. Artists are very particular to different methods. One of ASSIMIALTE's most passionate supporters and a fairly high-level LA-based colorist grades entirely with just the CP200-BK and a mouse. He has had the entire panel suite and decided he didn't like it.

Some guys have stepped to the full CP200 series and have almost instantly loved it because of the complete customizability with SCRATCH - down to the ballistics characteristics of the trackballs. But others have played with them and *hated* them. Artists and artists and everyone prefers something slightly different.

I don't particularly like the way the Roland JC-120 sounds. Never have. It's always sounded too tinny and "abrupt" for my taste. Yet it is a massive standard, especially in the jazz world. Different strokes for different folks.

You and I have very different perceptions of our business. Look at it this way... ASSIMILATE has been a profitable software company since our first year of operation. And anybody that has been in the software world can tell you that being in the black after year1 with a brand new product is impressive.

When Color first came out - there was an avalanche of doom and gloom and the woe that would bring to our company. The result: our next year was our best ever... because we are *not* just a color correction company, and we continued doing what we do well - selling to our strengths.

Will BM have some kind of impact on us? I'm sure it will. But ASSIMILATE's business is *much* more than just dedicated color correction units.

Knowing about ALL the aspects of our business... and where we are going... I am very confident in our continued success.

And those legions of fans and customers are, by a very large percentage, not on Reduser.

Re-read my posts. I have never said vaporware. I have stated the truth - it is a very early alpha of a product that will not ship for a few months, and will take a few months after that to gain a foothold in the market.

It will be "as real as SCRATCH" (or Baselight, FilmMaster, Pablo, or Speedgrade) when it has been a shipping product to paying customers for a period of several years. Until then, it's a pre-alpha v1 product that has not shipped yet. That will change very soon. But as of today, and this conversation - that is what it is.

Lucas
Thanks Lucas for the response. I'm sure it's not easy to maintain calm in the in the eye of such spirited discussion. I admit, that I have contributed quite a bit to the raising of the temperature. So, I apologize. But please understand, it's nothing personal against you or Assimilate. As you have probably seen, I can be pretty outspoken with any other manufacturers as well, including my faves- Baselight and lustre. It's pretty ironic, but at NAB I'd faulted DVision for NOT offering their systems with third party control surfaces, which is an exact opposite, that i told you:-) Heck, if you'd like to know, I can give you a piece of my mind on any of them, especially Pablo:-) It's just so happen, that you're pretty much the only representative of a color grading manufacturer present here. I wonder, if Quantel even knows, that reduser exists. And I KNOW DaVinci doesn't, as I had asked them. Martin only shows up here once in a while. Sooooo, you're it! I know, that you can't tell us about Assimilate plans for the future, but could you give as a little glimmer, without being too specific for company plans on moving forward. Thanks again for participating in this forum...

shashbugu

04-20-2010, 01:07 AM

Thanks Lucas for the response. I'm sure it's not easy to maintain calm in the in the eye of such spirited discussion. I admit, that I have contributed quite a bit to the raising of the temperature. So, I apologize. But please understand, it's nothing personal against you or Assimilate. As you have probably seen, I can be pretty outspoken with any other manufacturers as well, including my faves- Baselight and lustre. It's pretty ironic, but at NAB I'd faulted DVision for NOT offering their systems with third party control surfaces, which is an exact opposite, that i told you:-) Heck, if you'd like to know, I can give you a piece of my mind on any of them, especially Pablo:-) It's just so happen, that you're pretty much the only representative of a color grading manufacturer present here. I wonder, if Quantel even knows, that reduser exists. And I KNOW DaVinci doesn't, as I had asked them. Martin only shows up here once in a while. Sooooo, you're it! I know, that you can't tell us about Assimilate plans for the future, but could you give as a little glimmer, without being too specific for company plans on moving forward. Thanks again for participating in this forum...

A system not having certain features its customer base is not demanding, but rather solidifying the ones that make it great makes good sense to me. Assimilate does not make control panels, So? there are tons of panels out there to choose from. You as a colorist should be really scared, one of the powerful parts of a Davinci are its extensive presets. at $995 you can rest assured other colorists will sell lots and lots of presets to what used to be your customer base. with one click Rihanna's producer will find a suitable grade for her next project and save the dough on your services. Lucas can always sell lots and lots of scratch licenses for whatever price he wants.

Lucas Wilson

04-20-2010, 07:40 AM

Dude chill out. You are a bit too pompous.

Shashbugu,

I appreciate the support, but... Everybody play nice. Spirited discussion is ok. This starts to cross the line.

And Rihanna has bigger problems than finding colorists. Have you seen the crazy sh*t she consistently wears? I buy People Magazine (yes, I read People... wanna make something of it?) just to see what crazy contraption she's wearing in public this week.

It's all good, man. : )

Lucas

shashbugu

04-20-2010, 07:50 AM

Shashbugu,

I appreciate the support, but... Everybody play nice. Spirited discussion is ok. This starts to cross the line.

And Rihanna has bigger problems than finding colorists. Have you seen the crazy sh*t she consistently wears? I buy People Magazine (yes, I read People... wanna make something of it?) just to see what crazy contraption she's wearing in public this week.

It's all good, man. : )

Lucas

I agree. I apologize Jake, I'll re-edit my comments. I was being sarcastic. And I did cross the line. Sorry. It wont happen Again I promise. And yes Lucas I just happen to know her and her manager Marc Jordan.

M Most

04-20-2010, 07:51 AM

You as a colorist should be really scared, one of the powerful parts of a Davinci are its extensive presets. at $995 you can rest assured other colorists will sell lots and lots of presets to what used to be your customer base. with one click Rihanna's producer will find a suitable grade for her next project and save the dough on your services.

I hope you meant this in jest, but if you didn't, I would say that being "scared" is a very inappropriate reaction for any professional to new technology. If one has talent and experience, and at least a modicum of confidence, they can and will easily adapt to whatever comes along. It's not the tech, it's the talent, no matter how many presets are packaged with the product.

shashbugu

04-20-2010, 08:07 AM

I was being sarcastic. Jake is very talented you can tell by his reel. The thread is about scratches position in the market with the new announcement of Resolve $995. He is bashing scratch for feature he is not really sure exist in their product and talking about control panels they don't make. If I were in that business I just like Scratch will also sell you better software that takes advantage of the competitions control panel, or standard industry control interfaces like the CP200. He's talking about LUT's that almost are standard stable in the industry cinespace, cincube, kodak kdm etc etc. I am not a colorist I am a director but i I don't for see any other producer, vfx director working in 3D sending their project for finishing or filmout without checking for these basic LUTs. Its that simple. Now it seems we are arguing market placement vs feature set

Gabriele Turchi

04-20-2010, 08:16 AM

Re-read my posts. I have never said vaporware. I have stated the truth - it is a very early alpha of a product that will not ship for a few months, and will take a few months after that to gain a foothold in the market.

It will be "as real as SCRATCH" (or Baselight, FilmMaster, Pablo, or Speedgrade) when it has been a shipping product to paying customers for a period of several years. Until then, it's a pre-alpha v1 product that has not shipped yet. That will change very soon. But as of today, and this conversation - that is what it is.

Lucas

Lucas...come on,be fare ...We all love Scratch , but you cannot say this....Resolve exist from many years ...they " just "translated to a Mac OS...it's a not a brand new software build it from the ground than need years to work....(same example of smoke on a MAC .... worked very very well right away.....)

shashbugu

04-20-2010, 08:20 AM

Gabriele Turchi

04-20-2010, 08:24 AM

shashbugu

04-20-2010, 08:29 AM

guy it's Resolve....
not a brand new software from a brand new company that is dealing with color correction for the first time.....might have some little issue (as every software) but i had a session of 30 min and was working great already (9 layers of secondary including matte blur and was realtime (DPX HD)

that's what I saw in all the demos, I am agreeing with you. I was saying if, just if its buggy. I am very excited about this announcement, I will be signing up for the entry level FXPHD course

Lucas Wilson

04-20-2010, 11:57 AM

Lucas...come on,be fare ...We all love Scratch , but you cannot say this....Resolve exist from many years ...they " just "translated to a Mac OS...it's a not a brand new software build it from the ground than need years to work....(same example of smoke on a MAC .... worked very very well right away.....)

Sure I can ... I just said it! : )

I said in one of my posts somewhere that Resolve is sort of in a weird in-between place. It is established software, but please... A "translation"??

Porting to a new OS without the dedicated hardware that has made Resolve the powerhouse it has always been ... That is *not* a small thing. There will be a period of "adjustment."

And then there are support issues, upgrade issues, etc, etc.

Guys - I've said in other posts and will say again ... Resolve is a killer tool for color! But what they are doing as a company is not a minor thing. It will take a little time for them to get it right, and for the market to react and adjust.

Lucas

Arttie Puig

04-20-2010, 01:17 PM

Sure I can ... I just said it! : )

I said in one of my posts somewhere that Resolve is sort of in a weird in-between place. It is established software, but please... A "translation"??

Porting to a new OS without the dedicated hardware that has made Resolve the powerhouse it has always been ... That is *not* a small thing. There will be a period of "adjustment."

And then there are support issues, upgrade issues, etc, etc.

Guys - I've said in other posts and will say again ... Resolve is a killer tool for color! But what they are doing as a company is not a minor thing. It will take a little time for them to get it right, and for the market to react and adjust.

Lucas

So far they had over a year to work on it, and they seem to work fast!
I understand Assimilate won't say anything about what's the next plan of action, not even BM said it will cost $999 when people were asking for it, they kept quiet. And I agree in part to wait until the product is out there, but don't wait too long, people don't like changing systems too often once they're comfortable, and again, we're not talking about Color, it's a DaVinci.
I'm sure there were meetings and there will be at Assimilate regarding their pricing structure. But as far as myself goes, I was seriously considering buying one for my startup, but it's a lot of money I don't know I'm going to recover, specially in this economy where clients don't want to pay. But for sure I'm getting a Resolbe and a Revival.

roryhinds

04-20-2010, 01:20 PM

Does anyone know what spec is required for Resolve on Mac?
I heard to nVidia cards but can't find a spec sheet anywhere

Simon Blackledge

04-20-2010, 01:23 PM

non yet but a 285 or a 4800 probably..

jake blackstone

04-20-2010, 03:02 PM

A system not having certain features its customer base is not demanding, but rather solidifying the ones that make it great makes good sense to me. Assimilate does not make control panels, So? there are tons of panels out there to choose from. You as a colorist should be really scared, one of the powerful parts of a Davinci are its extensive presets. at $995 you can rest assured other colorists will sell lots and lots of presets to what used to be your customer base. with one click Rihanna's producer will find a suitable grade for her next project and save the dough on your services. Lucas can always sell lots and lots of scratch licenses for whatever price he wants.
Haha, that's funny. I'm so glad you'd voiced these sentiments. I get this attitude days in and day out, especially on music videos. Why should we pay you more money, if I can get the director or DP just reuse some look presets and deliver the video? "You as a colorist should be really scared, one of the powerful parts of a Davinci are its extensive presets" What extensive presets? It's just regular garden variety color grades gallery, just any other grading systems. I think originally it was offered on Pogle back in the day. But, if that's your understanding what colorist does, then just use Magic Bullet looks right now. If you're planning to buy Resolve just so you can reuse some bought "presets", then I suggest you should save the $1k and stay with Color. Dare I say, it's just as powerful in that respect:-)
Let me give you an example of why I'm not worried. In majority of cases for music videos grading, I'm usually provided with a few reference videos or stills. If all you are trained to do is to just push the presets, then you should prey to your color gods, that someone had already created this look and you have it in your bag, so you can give to your client what he wants. Beside, the looks never properly work anyway. What if it's something new? As a simple preset reuser, would you even know how to recreate that look in the reference video? I have lost count as to how many times I would get the material, where video wasn't shot even close to the reference requirements. With an advance of modern post tools, clients are under impression, that anything can be turned into any desired look. Yes, but it takes more talent, experience and time, than just reuse of presets. So, no, I'm not scared or even concern at all. Will I get offered less of the low or never paying music video offers? What about all those low quality- good enough- let's find the cheapest colorist for the job- just for film credit- a great way to make connections- do this one and then will get you more non paying jobs? Couldn't care less. Not my market...
I work with Baselight and Lustre, less with FilmMaster and Scratch. Not that many people can say this. Before I ditch my Lustre, I will be doing very extensive, real life tests of the Resolve, but if it meets my needs, I will swith to Resolve in a heart beat, despite my obvious affection for Lustre...
PS. Not being a colorist, that spends many hours every day pushing colors, you can't possibly imagine the importance of ergonomics of properly designed control panel. So, I'm not even going to try to explain it any more...

Jeff Coatney

04-20-2010, 03:46 PM

shashbugu

04-20-2010, 03:50 PM

Haha, that's funny. I'm so glad you'd voiced these sentiments. I get this attitude days in and day out, especially on music videos. Why should we pay you more money, if I can get the director or DP just reuse some look presets and deliver the video? "You as a colorist should be really scared, one of the powerful parts of a Davinci are its extensive presets" What extensive presets? It's just regular garden variety color grades gallery, just any other grading systems. I think originally it was offered on Pogle back in the day. But, if that's your understanding what colorist does, then just use Magic Bullet looks right now. If you're planning to buy Resolve just so you can reuse some bought "presets", then I suggest you should save the $1k and stay with Color. Dare I say, it's just as powerful in that respect:-)
Let me give you an example of why I'm not worried. In majority of cases for music videos grading, I'm usually provided with a few reference videos or stills. If all you are trained to do is to just push the presets, then you should prey to your color gods, that someone had already created this look and you have it in your bag, so you can give to your client what he wants. Beside, the looks never properly work anyway. What if it's something new? As a simple preset reuser, would you even know how to recreate that look in the reference video? I have lost count as to how many times I would get the material, where video wasn't shot even close to the reference requirements. With an advance of modern post tools, clients are under impression, that anything can be turned into any desired look. Yes, but it takes more talent, experience and time, than just reuse of presets. So, no, I'm not scared or even concern at all. Will I get offered less of the low or never paying music video offers? What about all those low quality- good enough- let's find the cheapest colorist for the job- just for film credit- a great way to make connections- do this one and then will get you more non paying jobs? Couldn't care less. Not my market...
I work with Baselight and Lustre, less with FilmMaster and Scratch. Not that many people can say this. Before I ditch my Lustre, I will be doing very extensive, real life tests of the Resolve, but if it meets my needs, I will swith to Resolve in a heart beat, despite my obvious affection for Lustre...
PS. Not being a colorist, that spends many hours every day pushing colors, you can't possibly imagine the importance of ergonomics of properly designed control panel. So, I'm not even going to try to explain it any more...

Thanks, your point well taken. I do apologize. I dare not be sarcastic about a persons livelihood. That was wrong of me. since you live in LA if you are ever around B hills I'll buy you a drink. Cheers!!!:cheers2::

shashbugu

04-20-2010, 04:00 PM

This is an thread. Clearly the Post landscape is in the throes of meaningful change. The next 18 months will be fascinating to watch. Professional tool sets are aggressively migrating to the end-user. If I were a Colorist, I'd be ramping up to share my expertise right now. People that can see the road ahead are well positioned to benefit from this opportunity.

If "secret knowledge" protects your livelihood, the Prometheus of technology will inevitably steal your fire and give it to everyone.

Interesting!!, That's a pretty profound way to look at the thread.

jake blackstone

04-20-2010, 04:53 PM

Thanks, your point well taken. I do apologize. I dare not be sarcastic about a persons livelihood. That was wrong of me. since you live in LA if you are ever around B hills I'll buy you a drink. Cheers!!!:cheers2::

You're on:thumbsup:

jake blackstone

04-20-2010, 05:14 PM

This is an interesting thread. Clearly the Post landscape is in the throes of meaningful change. The next 18 months will be fascinating to watch. Professional tool sets are aggressively migrating to the end-user. If I were a Colorist, I'd be ramping up to share my expertise right now. People that can see the road ahead are well positioned to benefit from this opportunity.

If "secret knowledge" protects your livelihood, the Prometheus of technology will inevitably steal your fire and give it to everyone.
I will agree with you on the change part, except, I feel, the change is not only happening, but it's even accelerating in just about every aspect of filmmaking. It's changing from production all the way to delivery. Everyone, not just colorists, should be on their toes these days. Red also is being hit on both sides, with Arri and Aaton from one side and Canon and Nikon on the other. Any DP or Directors should know how to use best tools for the job. I would actually encourage any DP or Director to stop by my shop for quick lesson on color grading. It would help them to be better versed in the process. There is no secret society of colorists that's trying to hide secrets of good color grading. I'm not worried, that someone comes over and learns all my tricks in an hour. Come over... It's all in the open-talent, good eye and perseverance. Repurchasing old presets is not one of them.