A TWO SLOT CF Card

[David Battistella]

Given the response to how excellent the CF option is:

How feasible is it to have a dual CF slot?

The benefits are obvious:

1. Continuous roll
2. Extended record times
3. Double Record, maybe?

But then again, maybe it just can't be done.


David

[PaulClements]

1. Unlikely it would be continuous, could probably overlap.
2. Little advantage other than the removing the few seconds for swapping out
3. One for a backup? Wouldn't be a bad idea. But frankly I doubt you need it. If the camera should somehow corrupt the footage it'll record badly to both. Checking your flash works at the outset is always essential and the likelihood of them failing is fortunately very slim. Interestingly Panavision was revealing their new recording box at IBC. They were using solid state media (Basically compact flash) because it meant films shooting digital would then be able to get insurance as Harddrives are viewed as too tempromental. It gives you an idea of the reliability of CF.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I thought of this when the nikon D3 was announced with 2 slots. The continuous roll i think will be a boon, especially when CF sizes get big enough to almost replace the reddrive. 32gb sizes would give you about 30 mins, which is enough for just about anything, except maybe long long interviews or something. dual slot continuous roll would totally make reddrives obsolete.

[jbeale]

If you're doing event work, some stage shows and music concerts can go upwards of 90 minutes without an intermission.

[C.H.Haskell]

I think the two card idea sounds great, and being that its a modular system I could imagine this being developed if there was a popular demand. I must admit its crucial in the P2 workflow having the extra card slot IMO. I had planed to use the RED drive but it seems as though CF could dominate.

[Shawn Nelson]

Mike Curtis, my father John Nelson and I all had a conversation with Jim about this two Fridays ago on Red Day. Jim said in retrospect, he wishes he had had them machine a CF module that held more than one slot. We suggested simply a mod that'd take more than one. Then Mike suggested a CF-card cable that'd run from the existing CF slot to a bay of 6 slots. Jim just listened. So know that he is thinking about such things.

[Johnny Friday]

A MUST FOR UNDERWATER SHOOTERS!!! yeah i know...there's only a small handful of us, but just not feasable to shoot CF with only one card for most underwater sequences. Currently using the HVX 200 with the dual slots is a savior....and now with 16gig cards---ALTHOUGH, THAT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH SHOOT TIME.

I know that the hdd solution is coming soon and I'll definately go that rout. But would be SO MUCH BETTER to have dual or quad CF's with 8gig or 16gig cards.

....lot on the table, that's my first request. Thanks...

[Jason Laramy]

This is a great idea!!

[David Battistella]

A MUST FOR UNDERWATER SHOOTERS!!! yeah i know...there's only a small handful of us, but just not feasable to shoot CF with only one card for most underwater sequences. Currently using the HVX 200 with the dual slots is a savior....and now with 16gig cards---ALTHOUGH, THAT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH SHOOT TIME.

I know that the hdd solution is coming soon and I'll definately go that rout. But would be SO MUCH BETTER to have dual or quad CF's with 8gig or 16gig cards.

....lot on the table, that's my first request. Thanks...

I can totally see this. More room in th housing and less weight.

[David Battistella]

Mike Curtis, my father John Nelson and I all had a conversation with Jim about this two Fridays ago on Red Day. Jim said in retrospect, he wishes he had had them machine a CF module that held more than one slot. We suggested simply a mod that'd take more than one. Then Mike suggested a CF-card cable that'd run from the existing CF slot to a bay of 6 slots. Jim just listened. So know that he is thinking about such things.

I am glad to hear this insight Shawn. The six slot thing is a good idea and I guess it could be yet another thing to mount to the cage.

[Adam Jeal]

Mike Curtis, my father John Nelson and I all had a conversation with Jim about this two Fridays ago on Red Day. Jim said in retrospect, he wishes he had had them machine a CF module that held more than one slot. We suggested simply a mod that'd take more than one. Then Mike suggested a CF-card cable that'd run from the existing CF slot to a bay of 6 slots. Jim just listened. So know that he is thinking about such things.

That's cool Shawn. Mike's really on the ball. I'd love to see this, sooner rather than later!

adam

[10s]

Mike Curtis, my father John Nelson and I all had a conversation with Jim about this two Fridays ago on Red Day. Jim said in retrospect, he wishes he had had them machine a CF module that held more than one slot. We suggested simply a mod that'd take more than one. Then Mike suggested a CF-card cable that'd run from the existing CF slot to a bay of 6 slots. Jim just listened. So know that he is thinking about such things.

I proposed big fat P2 cards, holding at least 4Xs the memory of current P2s for the HVX 200 way back when, but of course that was just a foolish idea. The idea that a P2 card must be the exact physical size of PCMIA cards was the LAW. I forgot that in poor design function must follow form (?) and P2 cards must fit the physical design parameters of a designer that had very different ideas back in the 90s.

I proposed a multi-slot bank for CF cards for RED but that was also stupid. When I think up the next stupid idea and post it I'll be ready to hear why it can't be that way and then I'll wait a year later to hear about the new innovative discover.

Figure out the function, then design the form. Form follows function.

[Isa Totah]

As CF has clearly emerged as the way to go, multiple CF slots will add tremendous usability and value to the camera. Outside of machining a multiple CF slot, a CF six slot module sounds like a great idea. In terms of all the suggestions that have come forth, I think one this is huge. Hopefully, this outstanding Red team can make it happen.

[Steve Freebairn]

I'd pay more for a 6 slot on camera CF module. It'd make the RED drive and Red Ram obsolete imo.

[Greg Voevodsky]

I'd pay more for a 6 slot on camera CF module. It'd make the RED drive and Red Ram obsolete imo.

So would I... and I'm sure so would 90% of RED users. Pole anyone? (I don't know how to set one up)

[David Battistella]

So would I... and I'm sure so would 90% of RED users. Pole anyone? (I don't know how to set one up)

I am wondering about how hard it is to have the camera write the data across the multiple drives. That might be really simple or really hard. I don't know.

David

[ericyoung]

I am wondering about how hard it is to have the camera write the data across the multiple drives. That might be really simple or really hard. I don't know.

David

Not sure I understand - do you mean duplicating or striping or something else?

[David Battistella]

Not sure I understand - do you mean duplicating or striping or something else?

I just mean: Is it complicated to do a continuous record and have the one file written across two, three or four different drives?

David

[Steve Sherrick]

Well, to be honest, this has been a major concern of mine lately. The idea of a format like compact flash is great, but a single slot is really limiting. In certain workflows, not a problem. But in others (underwater, good point) it just doesn't cut it. I'll be ordering the CF module anyway, and will use that until Red Drives are available but I see a lot of my shoots struggling with a single CF slot. If there's a chance to redesign this in some way, I think it will benefit a lot of people. Or larger CF cards. I see it this way. If you can find a way to get at least 30 minutes of recording in at a time without swapping anything out, then that is a lot closer to the tape workflow of the past and should work out okay. But having to swap out after a few minutes of footage is going to be tough at times.

Any updates on the Red Drives? Any updates on the Raw Port Module?

Steve

[Johnny Friday]

i know space is an issue....but was thinking, doesn't the pani varicam have 6 p2 slots?

would it be so difficult to design the CF Module with 2 or 4 slots? Rolling over after each is full; or choose loop or whatever menu option you so desire. But, definately just having 2 to 4 cf's loaded would SO MUCH make a differance. at 150 ft coming up after 4 minutes of soot time to change cards is just out too much to ask. Of course the red drive would do it....but it has it's weakpoints as well---LOVE those CF cards. Just put more slots.....porfavor. I'll send up some warm tortillas and fresh fish tacos if you do.
:angry03:

[David Battistella]

Well, to be honest, this has been a major concern of mine lately. The idea of a format like compact flash is great, but a single slot is really limiting. In certain workflows, not a problem. But in others (underwater, good point) it just doesn't cut it. I'll be ordering the CF module anyway, and will use that until Red Drives are available but I see a lot of my shoots struggling with a single CF slot. If there's a chance to redesign this in some way, I think it will benefit a lot of people. Or larger CF cards. I see it this way. If you can find a way to get at least 30 minutes of recording in at a time without swapping anything out, then that is a lot closer to the tape workflow of the past and should work out okay. But having to swap out after a few minutes of footage is going to be tough at times.

Any updates on the Red Drives? Any updates on the Raw Port Module?

Steve

Steve,

I think for EFP applications you have to consider at least a 30 minute record.It's just the normal flow people are used to working in. At the moment we aren't going to see any of those Robert Altman opening shots shots on the CF (but the RED DRIVE will handle those).

The CF is a must and from what I have read, the crux of the whole speed with which RED will gain wider acceptance.

More than one could be a huge problem solver as users go through the updates in the coming months. 2K will give more space and larger CF cards will do the same, but I can't see how having at least two won't be a great thing.

David

[10s]

From what I understand the P2 card is made up of a series of SD chips. The P2 basically holds and connects these SD memory chips. There's a guy who built his own P2 with more memory. I think he's using a PCMIA connector with a ribbon cable connecting to a home made brick of SDs.

IDEA: A unit built into RED could hold, let's say 8 CF cards where the one slot currently resides. This unit would connect each CF into a seamless memory bank as the P2 card currently does for SD cards. The unit would have a cover with anti-dust seals (think Nikon D200) to keep the inner connections clean and make sure CF cards don't walk away.

The advantage of the unit would be that every so often when CF capacity increases one would only need to replace the CF, the unit would remain.

What's 8 gigs X 8 = ?.............hmmmm that would be nice!

A few months from now:

What's 16 gigs X 8 = ? that's serious!

... and so it goes.

[Paul Kalbach]

This is a little off topic from CF cards, but has anybody looked into the possibilty of interfacing RED output to Grass Valley REV PRO drives???
The robust 35GB media cartridges (survives 4-foot drops and submerging in beer) have a minimum sustained throughput of 110 Mb/sec and a street price of $67.50 each. The drives (around $500) are available with SATA, ATAPI, USB 2, or Firewire-400 interfaces. At the very least, it could be good media to transfer CF cards to in the field; but if there were a way to interface it, I can see one mounted to my cage.

http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/infinity/rev_pro/

[zak forrest]

Even with higher capacity CF cards, having more than one slot would rule. For my needs, however, multiple slots would cease to be an issue with higher capacity cards.

So I'm just wondering, does anyone know a ballpark timeline of when higher capacity CF flash cards will be ready for Red? Or is this a complete unknown?

The rev pro thing seems pretty sweet, but why not just rock a red drive at that point?

Is Soderbergh shooting on CF cards because of insurance reasons, or because it's just his preference? I mean, it IS more secure than a hard drive, and if you have the budget to use CF cards like film stock then why not, I suppose. but this thought just occurred to me..

[David Battistella]

This is a little off topic from CF cards, but has anybody looked into the possibilty of interfacing RED output to Grass Valley REV PRO drives???
The robust 35GB media cartridges (survives 4-foot drops and submerging in beer) have a minimum sustained throughput of 110 Mb/sec and a street price of $67.50 each. The drives (around $500) are available with SATA, ATAPI, USB 2, or Firewire-400 interfaces. At the very least, it could be good media to transfer CF cards to in the field; but if there were a way to interface it, I can see one mounted to my cage.

http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/infinity/rev_pro/

This sounds like a great back up solution!

David

[David Battistella]

Is Soderbergh shooting on CF cards because of insurance reasons, or because it's just his preference? I mean, it IS more secure than a hard drive, and if you have the budget to use CF cards like film stock then why not, I suppose. but this thought just occurred to me..

My guess is because this is the only media available at the moment, but your reasons are probably factors as well. I think they are also using the CF and using it as an archive.

David

[Kyle Mallory]

I'm sure some brilliant mind could devise a CF "RAID", in which the interface was a CF card with a ribbon cable out to a larger brick of whatever. In fact, depending on how speeds go, you could even have that RAID be non-CF media (SD, MediaStick, etc). The CF interface is nearly identical to an IDE interface, only in a smaller footprint.

Any crack Electrical Engineers in our midsts?

[Johnny Friday]

So....I mentioned this in another thread:

What can we expect for redord times:

given with an 8g CF card & redcode RAW only 4.5 mins.

What can we expect in terms of record times when overcranking....@ say 60fps (when overcranking is available).

Really makes for a real NEED for multiple CF slots.

[Craig Schober]

So....I mentioned this in another thread:

What can we expect for redord times:

given with an 8g CF card & redcode RAW only 4.5 mins.

What can we expect in terms of record times when overcranking....@ say 60fps (when overcranking is available).

Really makes for a real NEED for multiple CF slots.

right now 2k is the best game in town for overcranking and that lessens data by 1/4. so you would get about 20 minutes on an 8 gig card at 24fps. by the time you crank up to 96fps, you're back down to 4.5 minutes per card. at 60fps, it should be about 1 minute per gig.

[zak forrest]

how many minutes of 2k can an 8gb CF card hold?

[Mike Smith]

I'd pay more for a 6 slot on camera CF module. It'd make the RED drive and Red Ram obsolete imo.
But if the module was off camera, you could truly have hot swappable CF cards and continuous recordings without risk to jogging the camera.

[Adam C Lubkin]

But if the module was off camera, you could truly have hot swappable CF cards and continuous recordings without risk to jogging the camera.

Great point.

[Steve Freebairn]

But if the module was off camera, you could truly have hot swappable CF cards and continuous recordings without risk to jogging the camera.

That would be great!

[oldphart]

I'm sure some brilliant mind could devise a CF "RAID", in which the interface was a CF card with a ribbon cable out to a larger brick of whatever. In fact, depending on how speeds go, you could even have that RAID be non-CF media (SD, MediaStick, etc). The CF interface is nearly identical to an IDE interface, only in a smaller footprint.

Any crack Electrical Engineers in our midsts?

No, I'm just a computer geek. However, your typical CF card is not packed full of chips. Higher capacity is a question of cost, and manufacturers have not seen a sufficient market for very expensive higher capacity multichip cards. There is a problem with speed both when you connect more chips and when you increase wire runs. The idea of an external multicard adapter is doable, but not trivial.

You will be able to buy 32GB CF cards soon, they have been announced in the industry. We expect Samsung to ship 64GB cards by the end of next year. The limit of the CF specification is 137GB, and we will probably get there in a few years.

New non-volatile memory technologies are just starting to ship, and could well surpass flash when production gets ramped up. There is no reason why they should not be packaged in the CF form factor and with CF electrical specifications - even at a price premium compared to next generation packages they will be cheaper than what we buy today.

[David Battistella]

The limit of the CF specification is 137GB, and we will probably get there in a few years.


If they can get them to that with the speed of the 8GB cards that will be very interesting.

The camera is so modular that anything that comes along might be able to replace CF or if a technology is more durable or faster or more reliable the camera can probably be modified to take use that media.

With the larger cards the there may be less need for a high capacity REDDRIVE. I would hate to have 320 gig of media lost in the event of drive failure.

Hmmm.. The more i think about this, the more I love CF.

David

[Jon McCoy]

ZFS, Sun's new redundant file system is of interest here... It's highly redundant, and enables RAID across any storage device. You could RAID 4x8GB CF, get higher-speed write, and higher-speed read.

It's not inconceivable to have an embedded device, using ZFS, and then sharing the storage up to the camera by iSCSI etc. It'd be interesting to see what sort of interfaces will be available, and even capable - I'm holding out for an IP (network) interface, that has an integral iSCSI client. I'd even be content with Fibre Channel (though it's expensive for storage and switching).

[Jon McCoy]

Quick question - what is the spec of the Red-branded CF?

And any firm specs on the RAID Drive and the Flash Drive? I've just seen them on the store (I've probably overlooked them, so not sure if that's recent or not), and curious as to what the RAID unit is capable of.

Edited to say: It's feasible that if the RAID unit has SATA or IDE interfaces, and hardware RAID, that compact flash be installed in place of the HDDs. You can pick up IDE to CF adaptors for $30...

[David Battistella]

Quick question - what is the spec of the Red-branded CF?

And any firm specs on the RAID Drive and the Flash Drive? I've just seen them on the store (I've probably overlooked them, so not sure if that's recent or not), and curious as to what the RAID unit is capable of.


The RED approved RED CF drives are the fastest 8GB cards available. The cards need to sustain 27mb/sec read write speeds with the headroom for audio etc..

The REDDRIVE is two 160GB laptop drives in a housing and connects to the camera via a proprietary e-sata cable.

The Drives did not ship with the initial camera release, but they were apparently used to record the Peter Jackson short, "Crossing the Line"

David