I miss the pre-20 false colour

[Petros Nousias]

I just got my MX back from red and I must say its crap, you cant shoot at 20000 iso! But I did a couple of tests at 3200 and the results were mind-blowing. Crash your blacks a bit, lower the blue channel another bit(that was a strange comeback of pure blue grain under tungsten, I remember that in build 20 it was quite colourless) and you have a perfectly acceptable image.

But I miss the old false colour, the one before build 20 with the full colour scale from under to over. Now(unless it's a bug) It's purple in the shadows as in 20 and above, but the rest is just grayscale. Of course its pretty easy to meter with the histogram but I always loved fc...

[Michael Epple]

I have to agree with you. I just loaded Release Build 30 and the false color is severely handicapped. The bright information doesn't go past yellow anymore, and the darks are inconsistent. This used to be so dependable when it first came out. I'm not sure it really works that well anymore. Why did they make all of these changes, FLUT, color science?

[Steve Sherrick]

I just got my MX back from red and I must say its crap, you cant shoot at 20000 iso! But I did a couple of tests at 3200 and the results were mind-blowing. Crash your blacks a bit, lower the blue channel another bit(that was a strange comeback of pure blue grain under tungsten, I remember that in build 20 it was quite colourless) and you have a perfectly acceptable image.

But I miss the old false colour, the one before build 20 with the full colour scale from under to over. Now(unless it's a bug) It's purple in the shadows as in 20 and above, but the rest is just grayscale. Of course its pretty easy to meter with the histogram but I always loved fc...
20000 ISO? You might want to rephrase that statement as it makes it sound as if the R1 M-X is crap, which I would have to disagree with you if that's what you meant. My findings so far is that I like the image at ISO 200-2000, but once I get above that, the results vary depending on the scene and what I'm trying to go for. But to call the sensor crap, I don't think that's what you meant.

I believe the new false color was based on feedback from many people about what they wanted from false color.

[Raul Gonzo]

histogram but I always loved fc...

I had noticed that too- everything is mostly gray now- I thought it was a bug.

[Ethan Cooper]

20000 ISO? You might want to rephrase that statement as it makes it sound as if the R1 M-X is crap, which I would have to disagree with you if that's what you meant. My findings so far is that I like the image at ISO 200-2000, but once I get above that, the results vary depending on the scene and what I'm trying to go for. But to call the sensor crap, I don't think that's what you meant.

You might wanna have your sarcasm filter checked out, I think it's broken.

[Steve Sherrick]

You might wanna have your sarcasm filter checked out, I think it's broken.

Haha, he might have got me on that one, although the 3200 is mind-blowing comment sure was an indicator. :redface:

Okay, sarcasm filter back in service. Carry on.

[Mackenzie]

well.. what ever color its is as long the content well make sense..

[CJ Roy]

I agree, I understand having the extra Exposure False Color, but I don't understand eliminating the Orange & Red from the Video False Color.

SI2K's False Color is really nice and worth taking a look at. Can't say the same about the rest of the camera.

[Rob Ruffo]

I agree, I understand having the extra Exposure False Color, but I don't understand eliminating the Orange & Red from the Video False Color.

SI2K's False Color is really nice and worth taking a look at. Can't say the same about the rest of the camera.

SI2K - I don't know anyone who has shot with it. I don't think there even are any on the rental circuit here in Montreal. What are the disadvantages/advantages?

[XiaoSu Han]

Miss the old false colors too, anyone care to explain the new ones?

[Nathan Pena]

This is what I got from Stuart a while ago. I wasn't really happy with the answer. I don't see why the exposure info needs to be split between two overlays, and makes less sense that you have to toggle between the focus overlay to be able to see both (multi button). I just treat straw as the old red, along with the histogram and goal posts.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43223&highlight=30.1.4+false+color

[Paul Leeming]

Guys, the old colour overlay is still there but it's switched to the MULTI button which toggles through the various modes. I've set our camera's top left LCD button to MULTI and it works fine, then I use the 1 button to toggle False Color on/off which keeps the last state the MULTI button was set to.

HTH

Paul

[Petros Nousias]

Yeah, I found it today when I did some proper tests, but still it's not the same as the old one. The 80-110 IRE range is not as detailed. What I do love though are the two red bars for over/under. I'm still trying to figure out the correct iso of the camera, it came back with 800 iso as default, but when I switched to RAW view it looked way under and only when I dialed down the iso to 320 it looked the same with RedColour. Anyway, lots of tests will be done in the following days.

[Sidney L. Plaut]

I dont get why they changed it to two separate views...

the old false color was so smart! Now I need to switch and still it felt wierd that I did not get any purple...

[Stuart English]

I don't see why the exposure info needs to be split between two overlays.

Nathan, Exposure info is NOT split across two overlays.

There is a sensor exposure overlay (purple and red) and an RGB monitor path video level check.

With Bulild 30 FLUT color science, to verify exposure you ONLY need to refer to the first.

See the Operations Guide for more details on each of these.

[Michael Epple]

Hi Stuart. I have to disagree. I believe that not having any visual reference of range above 80 IRE in FC is a definite hinderance to the system. I appreciate the sensor clip and noise overlay, but the most important thing in FC is to map the entire range of tones. I understand that somehow the FLUT gamma or curve, or whatever it is keeps the signal from going over 108 in that gamma/color space, although if the image is clipped on the sensor or close, I need to know what I'm getting in that 90-108 range. it just seems that the implementation of the new FLUT is powerful but it also adds in some ambiguity as to what you're getting in the higher IRE ranges.

[Michael Epple]

Also, I feel that it is helpful to map the mid ranges for things like skin tone and greenscreen exposure placement. It seems that everything that isn't either really bright, or really dark ends up looking gray.

[Stuart English]

To see how FLUT controls the development of sensor RAW data into the RGB domain, enable the Video Level color overlay.

At ISO 800 with Mysterium-X, you should see that the Green video level overlay aligns with a standard 18% grey.

PURPLE, RED and YELLOW are not missing from the Video Level color overlay, but FLUT™ acts to prevent RGB video hitting these values.

You can force these colors to appear issue by adjusting SHADOW or EXPOSURE or RGB GAIN..

For more info see Page 132 of the Operations Guide

[Vico Martin]

To see how FLUT™ controls the development of sensor RAW data into the RGB domain, enable the Video Level color overlay.

At ISO 800 with Mysterium-X, you should see that the Green video level overlay aligns with a standard 18% grey.

PURPLE, RED and YELLOW are not missing from the Video Level color overlay, but FLUT™™ acts to prevent RGB video hitting these values.

You can force these colors to appear issue by adjusting SHADOW or EXPOSURE or RGB GAIN..

For more info see Page 132 of the Operations Guide

Sorry Stuart but the Manual explain literaly and with images about falsecolor red and purple and this, YES, is missing.

The problem is most serious than Red imagine, most DPs are accustomed wait for the Red color to avoid it and most of them are overexposing. I never work with a B30 cam. No rental houses here install B30.

Best,
Vico.

[PaulClements]

Hi Stuart,
Could you explain this a little more. Is FLUT stopping the sensor from clipping or becoming under exposed? It doesn't really make sense to me. Surely if something is clipped then it must turn Red yes? And if it's within 0-1 IRE it should appear purple?

If FLUT is doing what you say it is doing then it sounds like a step backward. Nothing should stop the readout telling the operator that the sensor is actually operating between 0-1 IRE and 101-109 IRE surely? That flies entirely in the face of having such a video false colour doesn't it?

If the FLUT is controlling the output so that it looks pretty on outputs that's fine but when it comes to a metering utility FLUT should turn itself off surely and we should receive a false colour signal with what the sensor is seeing precisely no?

Thanks
Paul


To see how FLUT™ controls the development of sensor RAW data into the RGB domain, enable the Video Level color overlay.

At ISO 800 with Mysterium-X, you should see that the Green video level overlay aligns with a standard 18% grey.

PURPLE, RED and YELLOW are not missing from the Video Level color overlay, but FLUT™™ acts to prevent RGB video hitting these values.

You can force these colors to appear issue by adjusting SHADOW or EXPOSURE or RGB GAIN..

For more info see Page 132 of the Operations Guide

[Stuart English]

The problem is most serious than Red imagine, most DPs are accustomed wait for the Red color to avoid it and most of them are overexposing.

I never work with a B30 cam. No rental houses here install B30.

This function is ONLY on Build 30 firmware, so are you describing a Build 30 issue or a pre-Build 30 issue? I'm confused by your comment.

[Michael Epple]

To see how FLUT™ controls the development of sensor RAW data into the RGB domain, enable the Video Level color overlay.

At ISO 800 with Mysterium-X, you should see that the Green video level overlay aligns with a standard 18% grey.

PURPLE, RED and YELLOW are not missing from the Video Level color overlay, but FLUT™™ acts to prevent RGB video hitting these values.

You can force these colors to appear issue by adjusting SHADOW or EXPOSURE or RGB GAIN..

For more info see Page 132 of the Operations Guide

I read the B30 manual again and i didn't see anywhere where it says to do this to activate the upper level colors in the False Color overlay. If I understand right from your post, then if I adjust some look settings in the video menu a certain way, those superbright values will return to the overlay in False Color Mode? How do I set these levels to be able to see where my clip points are? I'm not talking about the stoplight readout or the new bars on either side of the histogram and I'm not talking about going into exposure mode. I'm looking to set it the way it was in False Color with red and orange giving me those superbright values that used to be there before FLUT was introduced. I like FLUT as a post option in Redcine, but if it causes me to lose some of the false color spectrum I would rather have it not on, or have another option.

[XiaoSu Han]

I also think that it's not better that everything between the fewer colors is shown in shades of grey.

Why can't we get a zone system like Ansel Adams used but with a seperate color for each? It's 11 zones and should fit perfectly into the 13.5 stops of latitude, right?

Maybe just as an additional mode... would be so great when shooting landscapes...

[Petros Nousias]

I also think that it's not better that everything between the fewer colors is shown in shades of grey.

Why can't we get a zone system like Ansel Adams used but with a seperate color for each? It's 11 zones and should fit perfectly into the 13.5 stops of latitude, right?

Maybe just as an additional mode... would be so great when shooting landscapes...

This is more or less what false colour was pre-build 20.

[Raul Gonzo]

I'd love to know how to set False Color back the way it was- I used to use it non-stop...

[Michael Epple]

So, I tested out Stuart's suggestion and found that if I set exposure in the video/color menu to .7 you get both orange and red back in False Color. The only problem is that you're not sure what they relate to. But I was also able to figure out that if you also set the camera to 320 ISO, orange on False Color will correlate to the sensor clip point in the exposure overlay. I can't seem to find a setting combination to make red the clip point, but at least I now have orange working just like the clip point in the exposure overlay so I don't have to toggle between the 2. I'm still not sure why all this is necessary to get orange back.

[Stuart English]

The thing to understand is that False Color as implemented in Build 21, is obsoleted by FLUT color science.

Trying to use the multi-color overlay as if it meant what it did pre-FLUT is incorrect (it no longer has that meaning)


Instead: RAW domain sensor exposure is indicated by the Red / Purple color overlay. It really is that simple.


Once that is set, RGB video levels can either be assumed to be irrelevant until post production (film concept)

or

RGB video levels can be matched by ISO to commonly perceived "correct" levels for mid grey etc (video concept)


So don't sweat the fact that you don't see orange or red in Video Level, trust the Purple / Red of Exposure.

[Stuart English]

,
Could you explain this a little more. Is FLUT stopping the sensor from clipping or becoming under exposed? It doesn't really make sense to me. Surely if something is clipped then it must turn Red yes? And if it's within 0-1 IRE it should appear purple?

If FLUT is doing what you say it is doing then it sounds like a step backward. Nothing should stop the readout telling the operator that the sensor is actually operating between 0-1 IRE and 101-109 IRE surely? That flies entirely in the face of having such a video false colour doesn't it?

If the FLUT is controlling the output so that it looks pretty on outputs that's fine but when it comes to a metering utility FLUT should turn itself off surely and we should receive a false colour signal with what the sensor is seeing precisely no?



FLUT has no effect on sensor RAW measurement, so NO it does not prevent the sensor from clipping, nor does it change how that sensor level is indicated. i.e. it WILL indicate red if it's clipping.

FLUT does have an effect on RGB level measurement, and that seems to be where the confusion is, as Build 21 and earlier used RGB levels as a proxy for RAW sensor information.

With Build 30 and FLUT that's no longer appropriate and we can accurately indicate what is happening to both sensor RAW exposure and monitor RGB levels.

[PaulClements]

Hi Stuart,

Then I think the Video overlay needs to be rethought frankly. If the overlay exists in the RGB domain then it is somewhat pointless.

For my mind the Video overlay should correspond to the specific value hitting each pixel. So 0 to 109 being the value of light that pixel is receiving is then highlighted by the relevant colour on the Video overlay.

It seems to me that what should be a relatively straight forward tool is becoming somewhat obscured by the way it is being interpreted in RGB and FLUT™™.

I think half the problem is in the thinking of it as an overlay. From Red's point of view it is literally overlaying the image being output yes? Whereas as a user I simply want to see the values of light hitting the various pixels as a colour pattern so I can know for fact that this particular pixel has clipped, that one is under exposed to the point that no light is reaching it and that one has the perfect amount of light for skin tone, and that's great because it's on top of that persons face and I'm lighting for that.

I feel like I'm being a bit stupid and not getting this at the moment, is it just me?

Paul

[Michael Epple]

It's not just you.

[Jeremy Neish]

We haven't upgraded yet, and continue to love the way false color works. I really hope RED can figure out a way make false color work the way it did. I love using it to see my low and and high exposure areas, helps me adjust lighting on the fly. I also like the pink and green bands in the middle, very useful. Since I haven't seen what built 21 false color looks like, I can't be specific about my complaints, I just hope it will continue to be as useful of a tool as it is for me now.

[Stuart English]

Hi Stuart,

Then I think the Video overlay needs to be rethought frankly. If the overlay exists in the RGB domain then it is somewhat pointless.

For my mind the Video overlay should correspond to the specific value hitting each pixel. So 0 to 109 being the value of light that pixel is receiving is then highlighted by the relevant colour on the Video overlay.

It seems to me that what should be a relatively straight forward tool is becoming somewhat obscured by the way it is being interpreted in RGB and FLUT™™™.

I think half the problem is in the thinking of it as an overlay. From Red's point of view it is literally overlaying the image being output yes? Whereas as a user I simply want to see the values of light hitting the various pixels as a colour pattern so I can know for fact that this particular pixel has clipped, that one is under exposed to the point that no light is reaching it and that one has the perfect amount of light for skin tone, and that's great because it's on top of that persons face and I'm lighting for that.

I feel like I'm being a bit stupid and not getting this at the moment, is it just me?

Paul

Question Paul, are you shooting on Build 30 at the moment?

The multi-band overlay has ALWAYS operated in RGB space. In Build 30 there is a second two color band for RAW data.

Pre-Build 30, the muliti-color overly was used as a proxy for the sensor RAW data exposure level, which is O.K as an assumption unless you adjust the camera ISO rating away from the "sweet spot" - hence the various requests we have heard for a RAW VIEW to let you see "what's really going on at the sensor"

What Build 30 does is provide a direct insight to the sensor RAW data exposure level via the Exposure false color. That shows what is "in the mud" and what is "at or near clip". As all other exposures lie between these extremes, that's all we need to know from a sensor perspective. Also FLUT and ISO rating do NOT affect the Exposure false color bands, but of course they DO affect the RGB Levels .

[PaulClements]

Question Paul, are you shooting on Build 30 at the moment?

The multi-band overlay has ALWAYS operated in RGB space. In Build 30 there is a second two color band for RAW data.

Pre-Build 30, the muliti-color overly was used as a proxy for the sensor RAW data exposure level, which is O.K as an assumption unless you adjust the camera ISO rating away from the "sweet spot" - hence the various requests we have heard for a RAW VIEW to let you see "what's really going on at the sensor"

What Build 30 does is provide a direct insight to the sensor RAW data exposure level via the Exposure false color. That shows what is "in the mud" and what is "at or near clip". As all other exposures lie between these extremes, that's all we need to know from a sensor perspective. Also FLUT and ISO rating do NOT affect the Exposure false color bands, but of course they DO affect the RGB Levels .

Hi Stuart,

Yes shooting Build 30.

If I shine a torch directly down the lens using a Cooke 18-100mm at T2.8 on the Video overlay the light emitting from the torch is yellow. On the Exposure Overlay the torch is Red.

According to Red's manual for Build 30 (Page 51) that means the torch on the Video Overlay is between IRE 101-104.

Yet the Exposure Overlay is suggesting it is at Maximum Exposure and has clipped.

To any DoP looking at that image they'll believe they are not clipping using the Video Overlay because they will think (And rightly so because it's right there in the Manual) that it would go orange for IRE 105-107 and if it's totally clipped it'd turn red between IRE 108-109.

This means that Yellow is the highest echelon for judging exposure using the Video Overlay and even that could mean you are now clipping, so Straw becomes the colour to look for to make sure nothing's clipping.

I understand that you can use Exposure to check the clipping and low lights but it simply doesn't make sense. The Video Overlay is wrong as is and having to use two Menu's combined to build a picture in one's mind is a very bad way of judging exposure, especially when for the last two years DoP's worldwide have been getting use to using the false colour the way it was.

I can see that the introduction of FLUT™™™ and other features was Red's attempt to help people to get the correct exposure but in this instance the Video Overlay could mislead people into incorrect exposures thinking they are not clipping.

I strongly urge Red to alter this.

Thanks
Paul

[Petros Nousias]

I like seeing what's happening in the upper/lower parts of RAW, so I like the new exposure overlay, but as has been said a few times in this thread, I think that the normal RGB false colour should revert to what it used to be, we need to see the full contrast of the scene-especially skin/greenscreen but ALSO highlight clipping even if it is not representative of the full sensor clipping but only of the colour-space we are working on

[Stuart English]

Well O.K I hear what you are saying, but that is not how it a B30 camera works.

Exposure limits are indicated by the Red / Purple overlay, plus the goalposts either side of the histogram and the traffic lights.

Video Level - i.e. and what's coming out of an HD-SDI feed is indicated by the multi-color overlay.

On Build 30 / FLUT you should NOT be judging exposure on the Video level.


This is the reason why: As the dynamic range of the sensors continues to increase, along with the available ISO rating range, there is a growing disconnect between sensor (RAW) space and video (RGB) space.

Because - just in a film / lab / telecine chain - the video (RGB) space is smaller, so its reasonable to forget about adjusting video levels until you get to post. All we really need to know in the field is if our "digital negative" has been captured without clipping or noise levels that would be objectionable when you apply post processing.

Back to you example, when the torch is shining into the lens, in addition to the red overlay being visible, the right hand bar should be raised and at least one of those lights should be illuminated right? And what happens to those and to the video level overlay when you adjust the ISO rating - say to 250 and then to 1600 and slowly move the torch in and out of view?

[PaulClements]

Hi Stuart,

Yes those bits at the bottom of the EVF/LCD work as expected.

I would like to have a video overlay that relates to those meters and that's what the false colour seemingly use to be. The small rainbow raw meter on the right of the histogram clearly shows red when shining the torch down it. Anyone new to the camera would expect the Video overlay to mirror that meter and according to the manual Red has published it does.

I thought the video overlay was all about exposure, that that was it's sole purpose, if you're now suggesting we shouldn't be judging exposure using it then what is it for?

Thanks
Paul



Well O.K I hear what you are saying, but that is not how it a B30 camera works.

Exposure limits are indicated by the Red / Purple overlay, plus the goalposts either side of the histogram and the traffic lights.

Video Level - i.e. and what's coming out of an HD-SDI feed is indicated by the multi-color overlay.

On Build 30 / FLUT™ you should NOT be judging exposure on the Video level.


This is the reason why: As the dynamic range of the sensors continues to increase, along with the available ISO rating range, there is a growing disconnect between sensor (RAW) space and video (RGB) space.

Because - just in a film / lab / telecine chain - the video (RGB) space is smaller, so its reasonable to forget about adjusting video levels until you get to post. All we really need to know in the field is if our "digital negative" has been captured without clipping or noise levels that would be objectionable when you apply post processing.

Back to you example, when the torch is shining into the lens, in addition to the red overlay being visible, the right hand bar should be raised and at least one of those lights should be illuminated right? And what happens to those and to the video level overlay when you adjust the ISO rating - say to 250 and then to 1600 and slowly move the torch in and out of view?

[Stuart English]

Yes those bits at the bottom of the EVF/LCD work as expected.

I would like to have a video overlay that relates to those meters and that's what the false colour seemingly use to be. The small rainbow raw meter on the right of the histogram clearly shows red when shining the torch down it. Anyone new to the camera would expect the Video overlay to mirror that meter and according to the manual Red has published it does.

I thought the video overlay was all about exposure, that that was it's sole purpose, if you're now suggesting we shouldn't be judging exposure using it then what is it for?

Video level overlay is doing what it says Paul - showing you Video Level.

And it's the new FLUT™ color science prevents that RGB signal from clipping as the sensor trends towards clip.

I'd recheck the Build 30 Ops Guide because it should not be saying what you are suggesting.

[PaulClements]

Hi Stuart,

To quote Build 30.5.0 manual:

"VIDEO (PREVIOUSLY FALSE COLOR)...

... Purple represents Super-Black, Dark Blue represents Black, Teal represents 3-stops under 18% Gray, Green represents 18% Gray, Pink represents Skin Tone, Straw represents White, and Yellow, Orange and RED represent various degrees of singal clipping in RGB space."

This is followed by a table with IRE values for those colours and if you turn to page 52 there's a helpful chart displaying those colours too.

How else should I or anyone else read that? At no point does it say "But you'll never see Purple, orange or red because FLUT is stopping the RGB signal from clipping or entering Super Black, unless you intentionally mess around with the settings so that darker bits are darker and clipping bits are more clippier, and yes you won't see Purple in the overlay even if you're in the darkest of dark rooms with zero light nor will you see orange or red even if you were pointing the camera directly at the sun..."

In all honesty Stuart do you think it is now better than it was previously?

Thanks
Paul

[Bob Rudis]

Stewart, The new exposure false color is fabulous. Seems many are stuck in the past. As a DP, I want to know what's clipping and what's in the noise floor. If I'm trying match faces within a scene, I'll use my meter. I'm very pleased with build 30.5. I guess it needs to be explained to everyone because it's a novel approach. Perhaps I'm naive, but given that Flut protects my future RGB pipeline, why should I care about RGB anymore? Exposure tools are all about the values hitting the raw sensor; as it should be. Pure Genius.

[Stuart English]

Appreciate that perspective Rob.

We are comfortable with the way the camera is set up in Build 30, glad to hear you like it too.

For the customer base that's not yet comfortable, we'll continue the education process.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have long been an evangelist for false color. I think it is most helpful when it provides a color coded mapping of Ansel Adam's Zone System. Due to the vagaries of human vision it is problematic to assign 10 colors that can all be differentiated easily in less than ideal monitoring conditions. Anyone with reasonable color vision should be able to easily see the 3 primaries and 3 secondaries distinctly which gives us 6 "bands" to work with.

False color (V in the B30 Multi toggle) has gone through at least 3 iterations, each with advantages and disadvantages. I suggested an adaptation of the old system in detail months ago that ganged some of the zones to make it easier to read; Zone 1 purple, 2 blue, 3 & 4 gray, 5 green, 6 - 8 gray, 9 yellow, 10 orange, clipped red. I believe it should represent the RAW range regardless of the RGB path. Here's why:

We have the RGB histogram (with the RAW goalposts that I love) and the monitor image itself to judge the FLUT™™™ted RGB domain. Does that need to be duplicated in a reference overlay? IMHO false color exists as a tool to make it easier to visualize the actual densities on the "digital negative" you are creating. This allows you to judge ratios and quickly see which "Zone" particular scene values are in. I use it as an engineering check. Maybe its just me.

On a related note I have been working with the MX sensor for a couple months now and the lower noise floor has changed how I select my ideal exposure. FWIW I set my ISO to 640 or 800 depending on scene contrast (800 for higher contrast to protect the top end) and then spin the iris while watching the RGB histogram. In the past I would ETTR, shoving the bulk of the "hills" up the scale until the clipping risk became too high. Now, I am more interested in spreading out the hills so I have more discrete code values (while still watching that I don't go too high or too low;-) One critical caveat to this approach is to be sure that if someone besides you is "developing the digital negative", ie color grading, that they are aware of the intended levels of particular elements in the scene.

Cheers - #19

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Appreciate that perspective Rob.

That deliberate miss-pelling of Bob's name after he mangled yours is almost Jarred-esque. Well played sir. :emote_popcorn:

Cheers - #19

[CJ Roy]

On Build 30 / FLUT™ you should NOT be judging exposure on the Video level.


So why include a false color for video mode? Why suggest a certain zone be for caucasian skin tone? And so on. I'm with Paul on this. The video false color is causing people to overexpose.

If you're only to judge exposure off the raw, you're going to have everyone start rating the camera at 320, which isn't necessarily correct to due to the lowered noise floor, as the raw lut shows up close to 320 on the MX Cameras.

On page 52 of the manual, it clearly shows what DP's have been getting used to showing yellow, orange and red. Pg. 51 has the ire layout. But that's not how it's working on the cameras. It shows yellow, and that it's it. Checking the raw, it's still blown out.

It should be changed back to how it was. Red (the color, not the company) signifies danger, warning, etc. It's why it's used on every stop sign and police/ambulance/fire engine lights. Culturally that's what we're used to, and that's what we've become accustomed to with previous builds. Any indication possible that we're clipping, should be enforced. If a DP that has the image punched in, not magnified, can't see the goal posts because they simply want a larger image, then quickly check false color, may miss this. And already, a lot have.

Thanks.

[Stuart English]

So why include a false color for video mode? Why suggest a certain zone be for caucasian skin tone?

Because if you are recording a back up copy to HDCAM, or DDR, or analyzing the video output on a waveform monitor, then the values of the RAW data as translated into the RGB video domain do matter.

Same as if you are doing a telecine transfer -

[Stuart English]

If you're only to judge exposure off the raw, you're going to have everyone start rating the camera at 320, which isn't necessarily correct to due to the lowered noise floor, as the raw lut shows up close to 320 on the MX Cameras.

I will respectfully disagree with you, more likely that it would be ISO 800 if they were to pick one value.

Its also clear that you can have your Build 30 camera track a standard light meter across a wide ISO range.

[Stuart English]

Red (the color, not the company) signifies danger, warning, etc. It's why it's used on every stop sign and police/ambulance/fire engine lights. Culturally that's what we're used to, and that's what we've become accustomed to with previous builds. Any indication possible that we're clipping, should be enforced. If a DP that has the image punched in, not magnified, can't see the goal posts because they simply want a larger image, then quickly check false color, may miss this. And already, a lot have.

I agree, but if you are checking for false color, check the right one EXPOSURE not VIDEO.

If you believe that it should be reverted, then I ask you to do the following test.

- Set up a scene at ISO 500 and where the Exposure false color overlay shows some red.
- Now change the false color overlay to Video false color.
- Now keeping Video false color enabled change the ISO rating down to 100 and then back up to 1280.

Do you get the "exposure" feedback that you were expecting?

[Petros Nousias]

I will respectfully disagree with you, more likely that it would be ISO 800 if they were to pick one value.

Its also clear that you can have your Build 30 camera track a standard light meter across a wide ISO range.

The 800 asa image looks way brighter when in RedColor, whereas the 320 one is identical to the RAW view. Doesnt this mean that the actual rating of the sensor is 320?

[Nick Shaw]

The ideal would be to combine the two into a single overlay would it not? What I mean is you use the middle range false colours to indicate RGB IRE values, but have purple and red indicate RAW under-exposure and clipping respectively.

It may not be possible on the R1 due to processing limitations, but you might consider it for Epic.

[PaulClements]

The ideal would be to combine the two into a single overlay would it not? What I mean is you use the middle range false colours to indicate RGB IRE values, but have purple and red indicate RAW under-exposure and clipping respectively.

It may not be possible on the R1 due to processing limitations, but you might consider it for Epic.
Hi Nick,

I agree, but I'd even go so far to say simply have a false colour based on the RAW sensor data.

Paul

[Nick Shaw]

…I'd even go so far to say simply have a false colour based on the RAW sensor data

But what would false colour in the middle range mean for RAW? False colour (other than clipping and underexposure indication) shows the IRE values. Since these are dependent on the way the RAW is intended to be developed, they are only really relevant in RGB – except possibly at 320 ISO.

[Stuart English]

But what would false colour in the middle range mean for RAW?

That is the key point. False color can either be shown in true linear space (which our eyes don't understand) or developed via a Gamma, and that is controlled by the ISO rating.

BTW, this is a good discussion, its always good to hear alternative opinions and feedback from the field.

[PaulClements]

But what would false colour in the middle range mean for RAW? False colour (other than clipping and underexposure indication) shows the IRE values. Since these are dependent on the way the RAW is intended to be developed, they are only really relevant in RGB – except possibly at 320 ISO.
Hmm, ok. Well the way I imagine it working is that if you had a grey scale version made up of a combination of the RGB from each pixel, that grey scale would have a value for each pixel. I don't know how big the range of values that is for each pixel on the Red's sensor but say if it was 1 to 10,000 then you could assume for every 100 that was 1%.

You'd then have a false colour that goes by percentage of the RAW sensor, maybe 10% for each colour and have 10 colours in total. I don't think it would take long to build a relationship between those colours and how one likes to expose the sensor when looking at the footage in post.

It is 1.45am on a Friday (Well Saturday I should say) and I must confess to not being completely stable but the above does make sense in my head at the moment. I'll check again in the morning (When you'll probably all have torn my suggestion apart)!!!

Cheers
Paul

[Steve Freebairn]

I love the Exposure Check mode in B30, I think it's probably the most helpful thing ever done for RED exposure. If I were to change anything about how False Color worked it would probably be nice to be able to have the option of turning on a 18% grey "color" that was based on the Video settings, but still have the Clipping and Crushing colors be based on RAW.

That seems like its the most in line with the idea that you can place your 18% grey wherever you want with FLUT, but that your "Ends" are very key also.

I could also see adding a user selectable "color" and range so that you could set your own range of the sensor that you most liked.

[Steve Sherrick]

I love the Exposure Check mode in B30, I think it's probably the most helpful thing ever done for RED exposure. If I were to change anything about how False Color worked it would probably be nice to be able to have the option of turning on a 18% grey "color" that was based on the Video settings, but still have the Clipping and Crushing colors be based on RAW.

That seems like its the most in line with the idea that you can place your 18% grey wherever you want with FLUT™, but that your "Ends" are very key also.

I could also see adding a user selectable "color" and range so that you could set your own range of the sensor that you most liked.
I was thinking about this too. I've been finding that the E-check mode along with goalposts has been great as it tells me fairly quickly if I'm getting in trouble, but having the green 18% like we're used to that's based on video settings would be very cool to have on the same overlay if it's possible. If not, I will continue to use the E-check for watching my extremes, and the V-mode for checking the monitoring path and an interpretation of the signal. Combined with histogram, light meters, etc. we have quite a few tools for getting the exposure right.

[Matthew Rogers]

Okay, so I've read through this thread and think I understand what's happened, but it still doesn't really help me when I am going to expose. To me, FC was one of the best tools I've ever used on a camera. I could always nail my exposure without a meter and I knew better what I was actually getting in my image.

To me, it makes no sense to really have the "video" mode on the camera if it's going to be like it is. I really need a FC mode that shows the full range of colors with skin tone and near over exposed/clipped, along with under exposed that I can tell what's clipped, what's not, and where I am on skin. To me, it makes sense to have a FC mode that displays those things in whatever mode you are in. So if you are at 320 in REDColor, it's showing what you would be getting with the colorspace and gamma applied. However, if you switch to RAW, it would be showing you what's happening in the RAW. Basically, I could set a button on my EVF/LCD to switch colorspaces and see what's happening in the RAW and when a colorspace is applied.

Now, with what's changed, I feel like I have far less information provided, and have to lean more on my meter, which I feel makes me work a little bit slower.

Maybe I am still not understanding it, but it seems to be a huge step backwards.

Matthew

[Petros Nousias]

So, let's all agree that what's best, is a FC that has both video non-clipping info(I would go for more than just a 18%, it's nice to know the scene's contrast, even in video levels) and RAW clipping ones. That's still handicapped if you're recording through HD-SDI or going for a simple transcode workflow without using redcine-x, but a better-or maybe faster- approach.