CF vs red drive

[Brandon Fraley]

I keep hearing how thrilled everyone is with the CF module, and jim's statement of costumers can't afford NOT to buy it. Can someone spell out for me why it's so great when compared to the drive? I understand it's better against shock, but that's about it.

THANKS!

[Álex Montoya]

Less weight, more secure, the backups are more frequent...

[PaulClements]

Hi,

A jolt to a harddrive unit such as the RedDrive could cause problems with the footage. A jolt to CF shouldn't matter.

Harddrives tend to fail more regularly than CF.

Producers and Insurers will be happier to use solid state devices on major productions.

Paul

[David Battistella]

I keep hearing how thrilled everyone is with the CF module, and jim's statement of costumers can't afford NOT to buy it. Can someone spell out for me why it's so great when compared to the drive? I understand it's better against shock, but that's about it.

THANKS!

Solid State.
Capacity.
Cost.
Speed.
Size.
Weight.
Wide availability
easy to use and transfer.
A way to load camera firmware updates.
Archivable.

Intagibles

Maybe a cheap high capacity write once card in future.
Larger capacities.
Faster cards.
Newer technology.
Dual slots.

This card might actually lower present video tape shooting ratio's and eliminate the "hose it down mentality".



:) The following statement is a satirical look at tape based production and should be read as such.
"HOSE IT DOWN"
Definition: Oxford, English
The not so rare occasion when a producer mistakes an EFP crew for firemen arriving at a fire and demand the every minute of a shoot day be recorded in the dire event that we, "miss the moment". The hose it down mentality was first adopted when video tape replaced film as a motion picture gathering medium, the problem has only become more complex with the advent of non linear editing. Despite the fact "Hose it Down" has forced many to replace video tape heads and helped make many post houses meet the rent on "digitizing alone", it has helped contribute to allowing anyone with this "hose it down" mentality seemingly rise to the very top of their profession.

:)

[Adam Jeal]

Flash media is also totally silent as there are no moving parts. If you are working in feature films it will be easier to convince the bond company, Producers and DOP to shoot RED if you use CF. This is because they are all (rightly so IMO) worried about shooting to hard disk. CF Card is much more secure.

[Anthony Gratl]

This card might actually lower present video tape shooting ratio's and eliminate the "hose it down mentality".


"HOSE IT DOWN"
Definition: Oxford, English
The not so rare occasion when a producer mistakes an EFP crew for firemen arriving at a fire and demand the every minute of a shoot day be recorded in the dire event that we, "miss the moment". The hose it down mentality was first adopted when video tape replaced film as a motion picture gathering medium, the problem has only become more complex with the advent of non linear editing. Despite the fact "Hose it Down" has forced many to replace video tape heads and helped make many post houses meet the rent on "digitizing alone", it has helped contribute to allowing anyone with this "hose it down" mentality seemingly rise to the very top of their profession.

:)


It has helped because this mentality ensures that you don't miss the moment. Which, when editing, is the moment you use. Which makes the film/doc what it is. A documentation of the moment within the story. That's what documentary filmmaking is. If you get the moment, and it's captured well, and edited well, that helps the rise of the career. This isn't any more complex than life, which is ostensibly what you are trying to shoot on an efp production. The "dire" sarcasm you use, in reference to working on something that has substance, is capturing images of situations that actually effect people. Replace tape heads? It's a tax write off. Speaking as an producer, director, cinematographer, and editor, I think your perspective might be a little skewed. I've got to cut the stuff down. It's time consuming and laborious to watch some of it. But from a storytelling perspective, it's my craft to bring forward the moment as an evocative emotional context to the film, as opposed to making do and cobbling some crap together because everyone was on their sixth coffee break and didn't want to wear down the tape heads. It's the cameraman/cinematographer's craft to capture that moment. So do that.
Peace.

[Joe Vinson]

Most people would want both, I'd imagine.

I think if you plan to do a lot of ENG/documentary interviews, the Red Drive is still essential. There's little chance your camera will get jolted around too much, and you don't want to stop an interview every 20 minutes to change out the CF card.

[Seung Han]

I was planning on using CF for scenes with actors in a setting with production values or anything taking a chunk from the budget.

The drive was going to be used for pick up shots lugging the camera around solo or with an assistant like the sun rising/setting, cityscape with cars passing by, salmon jumping up from the river, home made porn...

[Steve Gibby]

I love CF! I've been using it for a long time now in shooting DSLR RAW. I've been using it for 10 days now with RED #8 - with excellent results. When RED CF card capacities increase to 16GB/32GB/64GB and beyond, then CF will even be a good field workflow solution for long-form shooting. That said, I'll still get a few RED Drive units when they're available, for use in field workflows where they make more sense than CF.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

CF is the sh#t

[Rob Powell]

What's the price point and capacity of the CF cards currently certified for Red? i.e. how much footage do they hold?

RA Post

[Steve Gibby]

What's the price point and capacity of the CF cards currently certified for Red? i.e. how much footage do they hold?

RA Post

RED CF cards: $199, 8GB, about 4.5 minutes of REDCODE RAW @23.98fps

[Joe Walker]

But aren't the max frame rates kind of low using cf? Or will that change down the road?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

its the same as every other option..
no difference except capacity right now...

[mhandy]

Will the camera capture to both the CF Card and the RED drive simultaneously?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

maybe eventually but not right now

[Johnny Friday]

RED CF cards: $199, 8GB, about 4.5 minutes of REDCODE RAW @23.98fps

at 23.98fps......4.5 mins....

if we play at the highest frame rate in redcode raw (when enabled) that should dramatically lower record time. Even in 2k no? what are the actual times were looking at with 60fps redcode raw?

.....again would be great to see 2 or 4 cf card slots....otherwise I see only option as red drive.....for my shoots that is.

EDIT: overcranking does not seem like a viable option with CF no?

[MikeCurtis]

CF records the same frame rate/frame size options as Red Drive, I verified that with Jim or Stuart on launch day - forget which.

IIRC, the plan is to not record to CF same time as Red Drive, but I'm entirely open to being wrong about that.

Jim said if he'd known how great CF was going to be they would've done something different. I suggested they make a CF adaptor that goes out to a unit that holds many - 4/5/6 cards? But then you get into management issues of what's in and what's out, etc. I'd even be happy if you had to treat it like a little RAID or JBOD and treat it as a unit - that'd still be cool by me to increase record times and add minimal weight.

[Brandon Fraley]

yeah, something like that would make more sense to me. I'm curious how much noise the drive makes, and weight IS something i hadn't considered, but still for me $700 for 4.5 minutes vs $900 for 3 hours is an easy call.

As soon as I can record 20 minutes to CF and reap the other benefits, I will consider it. Again, I like Mike's idea of using 4 cards in a raid configuration, although im not as tech savvy so i don't know how something like that works.

[Joe Carney]

CF records the same frame rate/frame size options as Red Drive, I verified that with Jim or Stuart on launch day - forget which.

IIRC, the plan is to not record to CF same time as Red Drive, but I'm entirely open to being wrong about that.

Jim said if he'd known how great CF was going to be they would've done something different. I suggested they make a CF adaptor that goes out to a unit that holds many - 4/5/6 cards? But then you get into management issues of what's in and what's out, etc. I'd even be happy if you had to treat it like a little RAID or JBOD and treat it as a unit - that'd still be cool by me to increase record times and add minimal weight.

Yes, SanDisk already makes sata II Solid State Drives. Hook them up as Raid 0 and you get 40 - 60 MB write and 120MB read, with no drop off. But I guess thats what RedRam was until the latest price drops on the media.
In theory, just order the RedRaid with no drives and put them in yourself, hehehe. (Just kidding).

[Sean]

A CF card also draws less power from the battery than a Red Drive, right?

[Rocco Schult]

Yes, SanDisk already makes sata II Solid State Drives. Hook them up as Raid 0 and you get 40 - 60 MB write and 120MB read, with no drop off. But I guess thats what RedRam was until the latest price drops on the media.
In theory, just order the RedRaid with no drives and put them in yourself, hehehe. (Just kidding).

I think it was stated once back then that you could put or use your own drives... yeayeah, I know everything subject to change, and it did change, but it could change again, couldn't it ?
We all know it needs 7200RPM drives. So be it. Empty housing, everybody free to put in drives of his flavour. Would be my choice.

[David Battistella]

A CF card also draws less power from the battery than a Red Drive, right?

There is no mechanism and there are no drives spinning in the CF so it would not draw the power that a RAIDed REDDRIVE would require. It's two laptop drives raided inside an enclosure.

David

[tj williams]

Ah Gibby the very voice of reason! Why can't every one see that there are a lot of ways to shoot. I don't know how folks make a living outside NY/LA without being more versatile.

Regarding getting hosed!
I think the rightful complaint is centered in so called planned productions, where instead of directing actors and creating interesting blocking and coordinated camera movements, a bunch of half baked different stuff is tried nothing is rehearsed much and it's left up to the operator to catch as catch can without even being able to see a rehearsal which resembles what happens in the take. This kind of overshooting on video tape without a clear cinematic plan is rightly offensive to most of us who are proud of our dramatic camera work. It's not about 5 coffee breaks or anything like that. I don't know a single cameraperson who will not pass up a cup of coffee for a good shot. On Documentary productions or reality shows where you are following the action as it is and while it happens then the camera should be composed and rolling whenever the operator can see the talent, and tape head life be damned!

[Steve Gibby]

yeah, something like that would make more sense to me. I'm curious how much noise the drive makes, and weight IS something i hadn't considered, but still for me $700 for 4.5 minutes vs $900 for 3 hours is an easy call.

As soon as I can record 20 minutes to CF and reap the other benefits, I will consider it. Again, I like Mike's idea of using 4 cards in a raid configuration, although im not as tech savvy so i don't know how something like that works.

Thanks TJ...

Brandon,

The RED 8GB CF card that records around 4.5 minutes of 4k RC RAW@23.98fps costs $199, not $700. Doing the rough math on capacity, the 16GB RED CF cards (when available) should hold around 9 minutes of 4k RC RAW, the 32 GB RED CF cards (when available) should hold about 18 minutes of 4k RC raw, and onward, and onward, as capacities increase.

When 2k RC RAW was discussed by RED, I believe a target data rate of 7 MBytes/s was discussed. At that rate, an 8GB CF card should hold around 17 minutes of 2k RC RAW @23.98fps footage, a 16GB card around 34 minutes, a 32GB card around 68 minutes. and on an on upward as capacities grow. 16 GB RED CF cards are supposed to be available sometime in October I believe.

Bottom line: it won't be long before CF cards can hold a lot of 4k RC RAW footage, and right now thay can already hold a lot of 2k RC RAW footage.

All this said, a few RED Drives for very long-form acquisition (docs, etc.) will always be a good idea - then match our storage medium to the project at hand. We already do that with lenses and other accessories as we approach each prohject with a versatile camera system like RED One - so why do not with storage too?

[Brandon Fraley]

The RED 8GB CF card that records around 4.5 minutes of 4k RC RAW@23.98fps costs $199, not $700.


You need the $500 cf module also, so yeah we're back $700 vs $900. Also, I was unaware that 16gig cards would be out so soon, but my fear is that They'll cost twice as much, so it's then $900 for 9 minutes or the same price for 3 hours. For the time being, for me, it only makes sense to deal with the extra weight.

Now if RED's business plan would be to REPLACE the current cards with 16 gig cards at the same $200 and make the 8 gigs $100, then it would be a tough call for me. Actually, I might still go with the drive, but if 32gig cards came out sometime next year (again at the $200 plan) I'd be all over it.

Also, I'm waiting for all the features to be enabled before i decide one way or another. I want to see how all the options work with CF and the drives (4k, 2k, framerates, etc)

Also understand that I'm in that league of indie filmmaker who really can't afford a RED ONE. I'm devoting my savings and borrowing money from relatives, so I'm trying to cut corners everywhere I can. I don't doubt CF is a better technology, I just can't devote the extra funds to it to match the way I shoot.

[Matthew Rogers]

Okay, here's the real question....Jim, when/if are you going to offer a SSD RED Drive? The prices seem to be really good for 64 GB at $400, so two of those with a case a profit, say $1500? I think alot of people would jump at that because it has the ease and reliability of CF, but closer to the the time of a RED Drive.

Matthew

[conrad gaunt]

Capacity Battistella?

Capacity, yeah tiny capacity, compared to Red Drive. It will all end up on a disc eventually. CF if you have plenty cash. I would recommend CF for archiving masters though, definately. Quietness might be a plus too, and battery life.

[Anthony Gratl]

Regarding getting hosed!
I think the rightful complaint is centered in so called planned productions, where instead of directing actors and creating interesting blocking and coordinated camera movements, a bunch of half baked different stuff is tried nothing is rehearsed much and it's left up to the operator to catch as catch can without even being able to see a rehearsal which resembles what happens in the take. This kind of overshooting on video tape without a clear cinematic plan is rightly offensive to most of us who are proud of our dramatic camera work. It's not about 5 coffee breaks or anything like that. I don't know a single cameraperson who will not pass up a cup of coffee for a good shot. On Documentary productions or reality shows where you are following the action as it is and while it happens then the camera should be composed and rolling whenever the operator can see the talent, and tape head life be damned!

absolutely agree with you. On preplanned stuff there should be no reason to overshoot unless the acting isn't hitting the marks......my comment was in regards to the original comment about hosing down during EFP production, and which I took to encompass mainly doc filmmaking.....

[Steve Gibby]

You need the $500 cf module also, so yeah we're back $700 vs $900.

I see how your math on that came out different than mine. Being one of the early reservists, I received the $2,500 accessory credit on both my cameras...something very cool that RED volunteered. The $500 for the CF module was simply extracted from my accessory list on #8, thus I didn't have to pay for it out of pocket, thus I didn't think to factor the $500 into the math for cost of CF - thus the $200 amount I quoted. Other early reservists may have thought the same way - it amounted to RED throwing in the $500 CF module and an additional $2,000 in accessory credit.

RED is really amazing! What other company in this industry would do that for a customer?

[Neil Duffy]

CF all the way for me. They will be at 32GB by early 08 and 64GB by the end of next year. Why ask why? Drink ...

[David Battistella]

Capacity Battistella?

Capacity, yeah tiny capacity, compared to Red Drive. It will all end up on a disc eventually. CF if you have plenty cash. I would recommend CF for archiving masters though, definately. Quietness might be a plus too, and battery life.


There has been some talk of cards that would be "write once" instead of re-writable and they would be considerable cheaper and would emulate a traditional tape based workflow (shoot on the archive media, copy and keep the CF as an archive)

The capacity is only going to get larger which will increase the record times. The first macs ran on two floppy disks (os and applications included on one and one to save your work. I would say that CF is in that "infancy stage" but can only get better and more reliable.

David

Yes. Not the capacity of a one third terabyte REDDRIVE, but the REDDRIVES will be for US reality TV and the longest research interviews you can imagine. I pity the edit assistant who needs to ensure those drive are backed up a the end of a shoot day.WHEW!

[David Battistella]

...my comment was in regards to the original comment about hosing down during EFP production, and which I took to encompass mainly doc filmmaking.....

Evolve,

I am a documentary film maker...so I can certainly understand these types of situations. I was mainly poking fun a the endless hours of two and three camera shoots on American reality TV. None of it ends up feeling "real" anyway because in these instances the people have the basic understanding that they are being filmed and with all of the additional people around how can it be "natural". Most of these show are shot in a bubble anyway. Once you introduce the camera, it's artificial. It's making disappear again that helps contribute to capturing those "moments". Just my two cents.

David

[vsv]

RED is really amazing! What other company in this industry would do that for a customer?

Elphel.
Has smart and flexible design.

Modules for the 353/363 series cameras

* 10353 - processor board (computer part of the camera)
* 10338 - 5MPix sensor board for 353-series cameras
* 10357 - solid-state storage (can accommodate up to 8 CF cards - 128GB total)
* 10359 - multifunction multiplexer/FPGA processing board. Can be used to connect up to 3 of the sensor boards (i.e. 10338, 10347) to one processor board. It can process the image data too.
* 10347 - controller part of a two-board stack (currently with 10342 or 10344) to connect 35mm format CCD image sensors
* 10342 - sensor board (requires 10347) for the Kodak 11MPix KAI-11002 CCD image sensor
* 10344 - sensor board (requires 10347) for the Kodak 16MPix KAI-16000 CCD image sensor
* 10349 - interface board. It has 4 ports USB hub, serial port, IDE port and some socket for additional boards.

http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Main_Page