Overcranking at 4K? any news? [Archive]

Tom Lowe

01-30-2007, 03:04 PM

I haven't been able to keep up with all the news, so I was wondering if any progress has been made regarding shooting overcranked 40-60fps at 4K "onboard"?

I plan to shoot a movie on location, mostly outdoors, natural light, that calls for 20 or more overcranked shots at least 48fps. To me, for cinema stuff, overcranking is super important these days. Being tethered to a RAID system is really going to be tough for location shoots, steadicam, music videos, etc.

I saw a chart in the workflow forum saying only 2540p comes out of the RAW port, not 4K. Is that right? Will any editing systems be able to deal with 2540p?

Has anyone looked into windowing the 4K REDCODE to 2.35 to save pixels so the camera can record 4K overcranked "onboard"?

If the camera will not be able to overcrank 4K untethered now, is it possible that firmware or a new processor or some other type of upgrade could allow for this in a year or so, when technology advances?

thanks!

Thom Steinhoff

01-30-2007, 03:47 PM

I've been watching pretty closely. There is hope. Rob mentioned a the RED-Raid in a post that will be coming later...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7643#post7643

Which is different from the Red-Drive or "Red Mini Raid" as Jim called it in a different post. The hasn't been highlighted anywhere, so to me it was news.

Hopefully with that Red-Raid, they will allow us to attach a Red-Drive off of it to spool off Redcode Raw once captured and processed. So after each 60fps take, the box takes 3x shooting time to spool it to the drive and reclaim the raid space. We can still hang hope it will have features like this as the more I thought about it, this would be the best way to keep a Redcode Raw workflow, but still be able to overcrank when necessary.

Not sure of the timeing of the Red-Raid, but hopefully we'll have a better idea at NAB.

Thom

Brook Willard

01-30-2007, 05:06 PM

The RED-RAID has been in the pipes for a while now - it's the so-called "refrigerator RAID" that's been mentioned numerous times. While it obviously won't be THAT big, it won't fit onboard the camera and it probably won't be cheap [read: won't be near RED DRIVE pricing]. It's the big daddy RAID to record uncompressed RAW.

As for onboard [RED FLASH or RED DRIVE] REDCODE RAW 4K recording, 30p is still the maximum frame rate. To be honest... I think it's time to consider giving up hope for more than that at this time. To compress 4K@60p onboard is over 800MB/s that would need to be crunched through the REDCODE processor to spit about ~60MB/s out the other end. It just doesn't seem viable... at least not at this time.

People have been asking for 4K@>30p onboard REDCODE RAW for a long time now and the team has been fairly tight-lipped about it. They're doing everything they can but they've been silent enough on the issue that I doubt it'll happen. That's just too much processing power and data throughput to deal with at this point.

If I had to guess, I'd say that a processor upgrade could someday enable faster frame rates.

If you need to shoot 60p on a day, rent the RED-RAID for a day. I know being tethered sucks...

Any editing system that can handle QuickTime files will be able to "handle" 2540p. Editing will be done offline

So far there is no word on recording only wider aspect ratios to allow for a lower data rate or faster frame rate. While logistically speaking it seems reasonable [the RED ONE must have some sort of inherent "cropping" engine, as 2K REDCODE RAW is possible]. It would be nice, but who knows?

Maybe RED will prove me wrong.

My dream? To shoot 2540p REDCODE RAW onboard. Let's crunch the numbers...

4K@30p = 265,420,800 pixels per second. This will be possible onboard.

2540p@24p = 275,539,200 pixels per second. [i]So close! Only 10,118,400 more pixels per second than what we know is possible...

Nick Shaw

01-30-2007, 05:28 PM

Don't forget that before IBC, 4k onboard recording was not expected to be possible at all. The RED-DRIVE was originally going to be 2k only.

The more they give, the more we expect!

Thom Steinhoff

01-30-2007, 05:40 PM

Brook,

Just want to bring it up as often as possible--Hopefully they will explore the idea of having a RAW->Redcode processor on the Red Raid with the ability to connect a Red Drive to it to convert the RAW on the fly (albeat time delayed) and spool it slowly to the Red Drive as Redcode Raw.

It is wishful thinking, and does put a processor on the Red-Raid, but it does so much for the workflow to be able to be working in Redcode Raw to the Red Drive, get to the slow mo shot, hook up the Red-Raid and move the Red-Drive to the back of the Red Raid, shoot your slow motion shot and have it added as the last shot onto the Red-drive.

Brook Willard

01-30-2007, 06:23 PM

I've had the same idea... it'd be nice. Frankly there's probably a way to create a system where the RED RAID sends the uncompressed RAW data back through the RAW port to the camera's onboard processor to compress to REDCODE at less than real-time after the shot is complete. Shoot 20 seconds, compress for 40 and move on. Will we see this at ship time? Doubtful.

Tom Lowe

01-30-2007, 11:24 PM

If you need to shoot 60p on a day, rent the RED-RAID for a day. I know being tethered sucks...

I'm gonna be shooting for thirty days in four states on location. I will have to have a RAID array along for the whole trip. The problem is being outdoors shooting in forests and stuff, being tethered to a RAID might be tough. I guess if we could use a 100-foot ethernet cord, it is feasible, but far from ideal.

Any editing system that can handle QuickTime files will be able to "handle" 2540p. Editing will be done offline [ingest into REDCINE, export to an offline of your choice, edit, punch EDL through REDCINE, take online and go to color correction/finishing app]

I'm planning to online 4K. Many people are. Just the same as we online our HVX footage.

So far there is no word on recording only wider aspect ratios to allow for a lower data rate or faster frame rate. While logistically speaking it seems reasonable [the RED ONE must have some sort of inherent "cropping" engine, as 2K REDCODE RAW is possible]. It would be nice, but who knows?

I pray!

Brook Willard

01-30-2007, 11:37 PM

I'm planning to online 4K. Many people are. Just the same as we online our HVX footage.

There's a big difference between 720p and 4K.

Ralph Oshiro

01-30-2007, 11:41 PM

What am I missing? I thought we could acquire REDCODED 4K RAW at up to 60 fps with the on-board RED-DRIVE? We can't?

Brook Willard

01-30-2007, 11:47 PM

What am I missing? I thought we could acquire REDCODED 4K RAW at up to 60 fps with the on-board RED-DRIVE? We can't?

Nope. 2K@60p, 4K@30p onboard REDCODE RAW.

Tom Lowe

01-31-2007, 12:04 AM

There's a big difference between 720p and 4K.

I'm gonna quote this back to you next year. ;)

Wavelet 4K online is already a reality and will soon be as easy as HVX/720 online-ing is now. No need for proxies. Online or death! haha.

Ralph Oshiro

01-31-2007, 12:15 AM

Nope. 2K@60p, 4K@30p onboard REDCODE RAW.Oh, thanks for the quick reply! So . . . now, I'm back to that "REDCODED RGB" thing that doesn't work with REDCINE, right? I mean, I NEED to acquire 4K-resolution, if I want to keep my S35-like depth-of-field characterisitcis, right? And if I do the in-camera scaling from 4K to 2K, it has to be in that "REDCODED RGB" (what is "REDCODED RGB" anyway--is that a synonym for uncompressed RAW?) which I can't use in REDCINE, right?

Brook Willard

01-31-2007, 12:16 AM

Possible or not, there's still a big difference...:D

Oh, thanks! So . . . now, I'm back to that RGB thing that doesn't work well with REDCINE, right? I mean, I NEED to acquire 4K-resolution, if I want to keep my S35-like depth-of-field characterisitcis, right? And if I do the in-camera scaling from 4K to 2K, it has to be that RGB thing, right?

S35mm [2540p] is not possible onboard. You cannot compress REDCODE RAW 4.5K/2540p/S35mm sensor area onboard at this time. The 4K sensor area [which is recordable as REDCODE RAW or REDCODE RGB onboard] is equivalent to A35mm.

REDCODE RGB is still a badass format, it's just not as badass as REDCODE RAW. I believe that the REDCODE RGB data rate will be higher than REDCODE RAW. Something to think about.

A35mm sensor area [22.2mm x 12.6mm] ONBOARD: 4K REDCODE RAW, 1080p REDCODE RGB, 720p RGB. All formats go into REDCINE. There is no longer a mention of scaling the A35mm sensor area to 2K REDCODE RGB in-camera on the Format Options (http://red.com/formatoptions.htm) page.

Brook Willard

01-31-2007, 12:21 AM

Uncompressed RAW 4K@24fps = 323MB/s
REDCODE RAW 4K@24fps = 27.5MB/s
REDCODE RGB = ??.?MB/s

These are three different formats.

Uncompressed RAW requires the RAW data port and the RED RAID recording device. This is big honkin' madness for most of us, but it allows for higher frame rates. The RED RAID will be released at a later date [read: not at launch].

REDCODE RAW may be recorded in-camera. This is your best bet, though you cannot crest 30p@4K for aforementioned reasons. This is a bayer pattern 12-bit linear compression format.

REDCODE RGB is a third, different format. It is debayered, scaled [to 1080p or 720p] and [I believe...] 10-bit linear [may be log]. You will not have the awesome control over this image that you will have with either of the RAW formats, but it will still have its use for some.

The latter two formats may be recorded onboard [using RED FLASH] or onto the RED DRIVE [mini RAID].

Brook Willard

01-31-2007, 12:51 AM

Ok, this is it for me tonight. Here's a nice "at a glance" way to visualize a few things.

RED Team: If I've buggered something up, please edit my post and remove the images so I can correct them. I don't want to spread misinformation in such a format.

Ralph Oshiro

01-31-2007, 01:01 AM

Ohhhhh . . . I think I'm getting it now, Brook, thanks! So, my personal acquisition recipe would then go something like this . . .

[EDIT: THIS HAS BEEN REVISED HERE—>REVISED RECIPE] (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=453&page=4)

A. STANDARD 24fps PHOTOGRAPHY:
1. Acquire 4K REDCODE RAW at 24fps [to take advantage of S35 depth-of-field].
2. Rescale and crop the 4K REDCODE RAW image in REDCINE down to a 1080p, 2.35:1-aspect ratio bitstream [my desired delivery format].

B. HIGH-SPEED 60fps PHOTOGRAPHY:
1. Use the "windowed" 2K sensor area only, and acquire REDCODE RAW at 1080p at 60fps, sacrificing the 4K shallow depth-of-field characterisitics, in exchange for the ability to acquire images at these higher frame rates when slow-motion photography is desired.
2. Rescale the 2K REDCODE RAW image to a 1080p bitstream, cropped to a 2.35:1 aspect ratio in REDCINE.

Is that kinda what I would end up doing if my desired delivery requires only a 1080p-resolution master, in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio? Thanks for your replies, and good night!

Brook Willard

01-31-2007, 01:09 AM

Personally, I would choose 2K REDCODE RAW [using S16mm sensor area] at 60p over your 1080p60 plan. Sacrificing the 35mm DOF for the RAW data and extra resolution is worth it to me. Considering that you'll be shooting a few stops more open than you will be with your 35mm/4K footage, the DOF changes shouldn't be relevant.

Also please note that 4K REDCODE RAW does NOT have the Super 35mm depth of field/field of view/etc. characteristics. When you shoot 4K REDCODE RAW you are using the 35mm sensor area, NOT the Super 35mm sensor area. You can only use the Super 35mm sensor area if you shoot Uncompressed RAW. Uncompressed RAW requires the external RED RAID we've discussed above.

Nick Shaw

01-31-2007, 03:34 AM

Rob Lohman

01-31-2007, 06:17 AM

See our format overview as well: http://red.com/formatoptions.htm

I think it's pretty clear if you take a minute to closely look at it.

Jeff Kilgroe

01-31-2007, 10:12 AM

I'm gonna quote this back to you next year. ;)

Wavelet 4K online is already a reality and will soon be as easy as HVX/720 online-ing is now. No need for proxies. Online or death! haha.

I bet online 4K will be reality by the time my RED #1110 ships. I can online 3 streams of 1080p24 on my G5 quad right now. A 3GHz quad-core Mac Pro is about 20% faster overall (although it's hard to put a true number to it) and we're expecting 8-core Mac Pro systems around NAB (when Intel's new chipset should be shipping to better support the quad-core Xeons). My AMD X2 (2.4GHz dual-core, 3GB RAM) can handle 2 streams of DVCPROHD @ 100Mbps in real-time via Edius.

If I can't online at least one feed of REDCODE RGB 4K off of a decent RAID and a new workstation bought late this year, then I'll be rather disappointed.

In reality though, I think it still makes the most sense to shoot 4K, export to and edit in 2K, deliver to film and/or HD 1080p.

Tom Lowe

01-31-2007, 08:03 PM

I bet online 4K will be reality by the time my RED #1110 ships. I can online 3 streams of 1080p24 on my G5 quad right now. A 3GHz quad-core Mac Pro is about 20% faster overall (although it's hard to put a true number to it) and we're expecting 8-core Mac Pro systems around NAB (when Intel's new chipset should be shipping to better support the quad-core Xeons). My AMD X2 (2.4GHz dual-core, 3GB RAM) can handle 2 streams of DVCPROHD @ 100Mbps in real-time via Edius.

If I can't online at least one feed of REDCODE RGB 4K off of a decent RAID and a new workstation bought late this year, then I'll be rather disappointed.

In reality though, I think it still makes the most sense to shoot 4K, export to and edit in 2K, deliver to film and/or HD 1080p.

To me, I'd rather just skip all the proxy stuff and edit online at 4K compressed. I like my projects being self contained. It's what I'm used to from DV and 720p. By next year 4K compressed online will be a breeze for any high-end editing machine.

Ralph Oshiro

01-31-2007, 08:09 PM

Also please note that 4K REDCODE RAW does NOT have the Super 35mm depth of field/field of view/etc. characteristics. When you shoot 4K REDCODE RAW you are using the 35mm sensor area, NOT the Super 35mm sensor area.Oh. Gotcha! So, when acquiring at 4K, I will be applying a multiplication factor of approximately x1.6 to the focal length of my 35mm Nikkor still lenses, right?

Ralph Oshiro

01-31-2007, 08:14 PM

Ralph, if your end result is to be 1080p, you CAN shoot the Academy 35 sensor area, preserving 35mm DoF, at 60fps and record on-board at 1080p60 REDCODE RGB. You don't need to window the sensor for 60fps. If you window the sensor, you can record 120fps on-board, but only at 720p REDCODE RGB. You would need to up-scale this in post to cut into a 1080p programme, but I think I would look ok.Great! Thanks for your post! I think that clears things up for me now! I CAN acquire up to 60fps using the 4K sensor area using only an on-board RED-DRIVE, I just have to acquire at an in-camera, re-scaled, 1080p image in REDCODE RGB, right? And the downside to acquiring in REDCODE RGB is both the render time in REDCINE (to rescale and/or crop), and limited ability to manipulate the profile, right? ONLY if I want to preserve a REDCODE RAW image, do I need to window the sensor upon acquisition to attain frame rates greater than 30fps (using only the on-board storage).

Brook Willard

01-31-2007, 08:59 PM

Oh. Gotcha! So, when acquiring at 4K, I will be applying a multiplication factor of approximately x1.6 to the focal length of my 35mm Nikkor still lenses, right?

No.

Still 35mm is different than Super 35mm is different than 35mm.

A 50mm lens is a 50mm lens is a 50mm lens.

If you're trying to calculate degrees of FOV, there is some conversion between the formats. The problem with conversions is that we're talking about *apparent* focal lengths, not actual focal lengths. Sure a 50mm on a 35mm motion picture camera may *appear* different than it does on a still 35mm camera... but the focal length of the lens is still the same. The whole conversion thing gets very convoluted very quickly.

The best way to do it? Just learn the way that a certain lens "feels" on different formats.

I'm in a SCRATCH bay right now and don't have access to Photoshop. If I'm inspired tonight, I'll put a little diagram together to explain the way all of this works.

Brook Willard

01-31-2007, 09:00 PM

Great! Thanks for your post! I think that clears things up for me now! I CAN acquire up to 60fps using the 4K sensor area using only an on-board RED-DRIVE, I just have to acquire at an in-camera, re-scaled, 1080p image in REDCODE RGB, right? And the downside to acquiring in REDCODE RGB is both the render time in REDCINE (to rescale and/or crop), and limited ability to manipulate the profile, right? ONLY if I want to preserve a REDCODE RAW image, do I need to window the sensor upon acquisition to attain frame rates greater than 30fps (using only the on-board storage).

You've got it. The only part of your post that I doubt is the render time in REDCINE. To my knowledge we don't know any official render time information [or how it varies between formats].

Stephen Williams

02-01-2007, 12:22 AM

Oh. Gotcha! So, when acquiring at 4K, I will be applying a multiplication factor of approximately x1.6 to the focal length of my 35mm Nikkor still lenses, right?

Hi,

No, S35mm is 24mm wide v N35mm is 22.05mm wide. Not very different.

Stephen

Brook Willard

02-01-2007, 12:32 AM

Hi,

No, S35mm is 24mm wide v N35mm is 22.05mm wide. Not very different.

Stephen

I take it N35mm is different than the generic "full frame" 35mm that I'm currently drawing up a diagram for?

Brook Willard

02-01-2007, 12:48 AM

I hope I didn't make any stupid mistakes here...

Forgive the stupidity of having a S16mm frame on a strip of 35mm...

Nick Shaw

02-01-2007, 03:48 AM

I take it N35mm is different than the generic "full frame" 35mm that I'm currently drawing up a diagram for?

I assume by N35 he means the size of a Nikkon D-SLR. 22.05mm is pretty close to the width of RED Academy 35 (22.2mm) so looking at the FoV on a Nikkon D-SLR is a good approximation of what you'll see on RED. Isn't that basically what Evin is doing for his tests?

Stephen Williams

02-01-2007, 03:55 AM

I take it N35mm is different than the generic "full frame" 35mm that I'm currently drawing up a diagram for?

Hi Brook,

Full frame is S35 (4 perf).

Acadamy 35 (N35) has space for the soundtrack, which is the same size of the 4k Red, which I guess most people will go with.

Stephen

Edit This link from Panivision (in inches) may help!
http://www.panavision.com/aspect_ratio.php

Ralph Oshiro

02-01-2007, 07:57 AM

Oh. Gotcha! So, when acquiring at 4K, I will be applying a multiplication factor of approximately x1.6 to the focal length of my 35mm Nikkor still lenses, right?36mm [135-format] / 22.2mm [RED "35mm" format] = 1.621

Brook Willard

02-01-2007, 09:03 AM

Hi Brook,

Full frame is S35 (4 perf).

Acadamy 35 (N35) has space for the soundtrack, which is the same size of the 4k Red, which I guess most people will go with.

Stephen

Edit This link from Panivision (in inches) may help!
http://www.panavision.com/aspect_ratio.php

Hmm.... quite familiar with motion picture formats. What of full-frame still 35mm? Think Canon EOS 5D or check out my little diagram. Still formats are where my knowledge dies off...

I'm going to re-make my diagram to cover all relevant formats [still 35mm formats, motion picture 35mm formats, SLR formats, RED formats].

Ralph Oshiro

02-01-2007, 10:55 AM

Someone linked me to a diagram that DVXUSER member, Proteus, made and posted in another thread over at DVXUSER. That's what I based my x1.62 multiplier formula on. So, my 14mm f/2.8 Nikkor will photograph nearly the same as it does on my Nikon D70 at a 135-equivalent of a 22.7mm lens.

Proteus' RED Format Diagram Thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=64685)

AIO Films

02-01-2007, 11:08 AM

Nope. 2K@60p, 4K@30p onboard REDCODE RAW.

I don't mine shooting in 2K since I have been shooting 24p HDCAM for film-out with excellent resolution. I believe 2K would suffice for most of my work.

What I really need from the RED camera is the ability to use 35mm cine optics for the often sought after Depth-of-Field look; be able to shoot off speeds (high speeds in particular), and finally, greater color depth for higher quality effects work.

Unfortunately, 2K is only available in the Windowed Down mode to utilize a portion of the imager at about the size of a 16mm film frame.

The problem with Windowed Down, if I understand correctly, is that I have to pay for and switch to 16mm lenses on set for similar Angle-of-Coverage of a full frame 4K image from the same distance to the subject. If I stayed with 35mm optics, it will be like shooting with a teleconverter and bsically forgo any super wide angle shots.

Equally importantly, I'll lose the depth-of-field effect of the "35mm full frame" look by shooting with smaller frame size.

I am hoping RED can somehow upgrade the camera in the future to shoot 2K FULL FRAME using some kind of "sub-sampling" technology (I hope I used the term correctly) instead of a "Windowed Down" 16mm frame size. I will probably shoot everything in "2K Full Frame" and be able to shoot 60fps any time I want if such MODE exists. I'll save the 4K mode for very important or special shots only so that I can save a lot more drive space and have a lighter post workload.

If you guys know a workaround to alleviate my pain, please shed some light. Appreciate it.

Nick Shaw

02-01-2007, 11:12 AM

Ralph Oshiro

02-01-2007, 01:47 PM

My personal acquisition recipe [revised]:

A. STANDARD 24fps PHOTOGRAPHY:

1. Acquire 4K REDCODE RAW at 24fps using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which effect a x1.62 cropping factor], taking full advantage of 35mm cine-sized, depth-of-field characteristics, and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE. Rescale the 4K REDCODE RAW image in REDCINE down to 1080p, and crop to desired aspect ratio [e.g. 2.35:1].

B. HIGH-SPEED 60-120fps PHOTOGRAPHY:

OPTION 1: Acquire 4K REDCODE RGB, at up to 60fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which effect a x1.62 cropping factor], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 2K image (while still taking full advantage of 35mm cine-sized, depth-of-field characterisitics, but limiting your post-processing options), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE.

OPTION 2: Acquire 2K REDCODE RAW, using the windowed sensor area, at up to 60fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which now effects a x3.24 cropping factor in 2K], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 1080p image (sacrificing your 35mm cine-sized depth-of-field characteristics, but still retaining all the benefits of RAW acquisition for later post-processing in REDCINE), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE.

OPTION 3: Acquire 2K REDCODE RGB, using the windowed sensor area, at up to 120fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which again, now effects a x3.24 cropping factor in 2K], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 720p image (sacrificing your 35mm cine-sized depth-of-field characteristics, and limiting your post-processing options), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE. Rescale back up to 1080p in REDCINE.

I think I finally have this straight, right?

Karl H

02-01-2007, 04:52 PM

The framerates for onboard recording were published before the announcement that the Red-Drive had now become a mini-raid.

I was keeping my finger (I only have 1) crossed that now Red-Drive was indeed raided, it would mean more bandwith/faster speeds and hence more fps for the respective resolutions. As they say 'subject to change'.

This hasnt been announed anywhere; but as 2k 120fps is theoretically possible, then could a faster drive get up to speed?

I'd be intersted to know where the bottleneck occurs on the framerates, is it CPU processing or write/transfer rate?

Tom Lowe

02-01-2007, 06:40 PM

Oh interesting. Does this "mini-RAID" thing effect the FPS at 4K at all or open up any opportunities for upping it? What is the bottleneck preventing 4KREDCODE RAW at 48fps from being recorded "onboard"? The hard-drive speed or the processor?

Graeme Nattress

02-01-2007, 07:11 PM

Brook Willard

02-01-2007, 10:07 PM

Back to the formats thing: I've sorted them all out and have nice high-resolution [and accurately scaled] representations in a PSD. Here's a tossed-together composite of them.

Because the forum has a 1024 pixel height limit, I can't put them all in order to help make the format size relationships clearer. I'll figure out a way to do that at some point and may post it in a FAQ.

Tom Lowe

02-01-2007, 10:18 PM

Bottleneck is currently the chips that are doing the compression. Compressing 4k down to a manageable size is not easy and requires some serious horse-power for 30fps. To get 60fps requires double the horse-power.....

Graeme

Thanks Graeme,

So, in theory, when the chips get faster, we could see 48-60fps 4K REDCODE RAW onboard compression? Are the chips upgradeable?

Jeff Kilgroe

02-01-2007, 10:28 PM

Tom beat me to it...

But I'm assuming this is the case, I was under the impression that everything about RED One is supposed to be modular and upgradeable. So if we can upgrade the innards of our cameras in a few years for less than buying a whole new camera, then I think RED will have succeeded on that front.

As for recording formats available now... I would think that in a few years, storage media will have become dense enough and fast enough to allow a competent RAID system for recording 4K 60p and 2K 120p to be mounted right on camera, connected to the RAW port. We all know that media will reach and someday surpass the requirments for that... It's just a question of when and what form it will take.

Tom Lowe

02-01-2007, 11:02 PM

By the way, what type of chip is used for the compression? Intel?

Brook Willard

02-02-2007, 12:13 AM

By the way, what type of chip is used for the compression? Intel?

RED...

Thom Steinhoff

02-02-2007, 12:58 AM

Back to the formats thing: I've sorted them all out and have nice high-resolution [and accurately scaled] representations...

That's beautiful and the best explanation I've seen--tremendous work!

AIO Films

02-02-2007, 08:27 AM

You have an option now that's pretty close to that, Shoot 1080p scaled from the full frame, then you can record 60fps onboard as REDCODE RGB at about the same data-rate at 4k REDCODE RAW.

Oh and you don't need to change to a 16mm lens as such if you shoot windowed, but yes it will have the telephoto effect, so you will need wider 35mm lenses to get the same FoV.

Thank you for the reminder. I never thought of that. But 2K is better than 1080p, albeit technically just marginally better, it sounds better marketing wise. 1080p is considered "HD" while 2K is "digital cinema". They are in two different categories, in some folks' mind.

Seems like scaling to 1080p Redcode RGB for high speed shots is my only option as I want to stay in 35mm full frame mode. Hopefully one day we could do full frame 2K RAW mode in 60fps or even higher frame rate.

One more question, if I shoot normal speed material in 4K full frame Redcode Raw, can I mix and match 1080p RGB in the same timeline in post?

Rob Lohman

02-02-2007, 10:40 AM

Whether you can mix and match 4K & 1080 footage depends on the NLE and other post tools you will be using. However, if you're going to edit on a 1080 timeline I would down-sample the 4K footage to 1080 in REDCINE before doing the edit.

Blair S. Paulsen

02-02-2007, 11:09 AM

The RedOne leverages many existing technologies, their particular implementation for digital cinema is buying us a ticket on the IT train. Chip speeds and storage performance will continue to improve dramatically as the stakes in that game are very high. It is exciting to think what kind of frame rates will likely be possible in just a few short years. Modular is good.

The design spec on the table for the rollout is very impressive when you look at available tech and the tiny form factor. The Dalsa, arguably the closest rig to the RedOne spec, is a monster by comparison.

If I was bidding a gig that required a lot of overcranking in the near future I would just rent a Phantom. Red will get there, once they have shipping units and their business more developed I believe higher frame rates will be one of the top priorities.

Jaime Vallés

02-02-2007, 11:39 AM

Thanks for the diagram, Brook. It clarifies things a lot. A picture really does speak a thousand words! I guess that's why we're not in a book writing forum...

Tom Lowe

02-02-2007, 11:54 AM

RED...

Wait. Red is making a computer chip to do the compression in the camera? I understand that they are making the Mysterium sensor for the image, but the compression as well? Isn't that kind of like reinventing the wheel when companies like Intel, IMB and AMD are spending tens of billions to develop faster and more powerful chips every month? This must be a misunderstanding of the internal workings of a camera like this on my part. Aren't there two separate chips (one for image, one for compression and such)?

By the way, I add will add to chorus of thank you for that latest format diagram. That is incredibly helpful.

Brook Willard

02-02-2007, 01:24 PM

Whether or not the processor is actually made by RED, that's the most information we're likely to get on the subject. This camera is ruffling a lot of feathers up the camera food chain... they have to keep their secrets secret.

Graeme Nattress

02-02-2007, 01:28 PM

Brook is right. We can talk in general, but we can't get into specifics.

Graeme

Tom Lowe

02-02-2007, 01:43 PM

I understand. I only asked because I was wondering if we might be able to buy off-the-shelf new Intel chips, for example, to upgrade the compression and other capabilities of the camera a year or two down the road.

Chips are advancing so fast now that a top-of-line PC chip bought this year will be a $200 joke thrown into cheap PCs next year.

Brook Willard

02-02-2007, 01:48 PM

Well regardless of who makes the processors, they will be upgradable. That's part of the beauty of this camera - the sensors, the processors, the lens mount... it can all be changed. Say there's a fancy new RED processor available in a year? You'll be able to send in the camera and have it upgraded.

Jim made a similar point regarding flash storage, but it holds true here as well. Intel, AMD, IBM, RED, etc... they're just names. If it works and the price is right, what does it matter?

Tom Lowe

02-02-2007, 01:53 PM

Stokestack

02-02-2007, 08:29 PM

So, to get back to the original crux:

If you want on-board slow-mo with 35mm DOF, it looks like your only option is downscaled 1080P in RGB.

But the Red site is still showing only 4:2:2 color sampling in RGB. It'd be nice to hear more about this limitation from the Red team.

Anders Holck

02-02-2007, 10:42 PM

But 4:2:2 only works in YpBpR recording, not RGB.
There are no YpBpR codecs on the format page anymore.

Rob Lohman

02-03-2007, 02:18 AM

This should have all the valid options: http://red.com/formatoptions.htm

Karl H

02-03-2007, 02:42 AM

Chris Kenny

02-03-2007, 02:06 PM

So In theory faster frame rates should be possible onboard Red-Drive in a year or so when the processors are capable of delivering it.

That's pretty good news for us cheap non-raid folks.

I hope it is intel as I'm told the new quad-core chips will just pop out and slot into the duo-core slots.

Red is almost certainly using FPGAs or custom ASICs. Any general-purpose processor with enough performance to do what Red is doing in real-time (assuming there even is one) would use far too much power and generate far too much heat for an embedded application like this.

Stephen Williams

02-11-2007, 09:23 AM

So just to clarify. Is it, or is it not possible to overcrank in any mode that would use the entire chip surface (or nearly so) and thus have 35mm depth of field properties.

IB

Hi,

Normal 4k will display 35mm motion picture film DOF properties.

Stephen

Brook Willard

02-11-2007, 06:48 PM

720p@120fps using the full 35mm sensor is possible onboard.

[this is wrong: see below]

Ralph Oshiro

02-11-2007, 08:27 PM

720p@120fps using the full 35mm sensor is possible onboard. It is? I thought I had to use the 2K windowed sensor to get 720p120? So, you acquire with the 4K image area, employ in-camera scaling to 720p, using REDCODE RGB, and the result is 720p120 acquisition with the 4K depth-of-field characteristics? So, if that's true, I'll have to revise my workflow recipe, shown below:

My personal acquisition recipe [yet-to-be re-revised]:

A. STANDARD 24fps PHOTOGRAPHY:

1. Acquire 4K REDCODE RAW at 24fps, using the full 4K sensor area, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which effect a x1.62 cropping factor], taking full advantage of 35mm cine-sized, depth-of-field characteristics, and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE. Rescale the 4K REDCODE RAW image in REDCINE down to 1080p, and crop to desired aspect ratio [e.g. 2.35:1].

B. HIGH-SPEED 60-120fps PHOTOGRAPHY:

OPTION 1: Acquire 4K REDCODE RGB, at up to 60fps, using the full 4K sensor area, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which effect a x1.62 cropping factor], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 1080p image (while still taking full advantage of 35mm cine-sized, depth-of-field characterisitics, but limiting your post-processing options), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE.

OPTION 2: Acquire 2K REDCODE RAW, using the windowed 2K sensor area, at up to 60fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which now effects a x3.24 cropping factor in 2K], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 1080p image (sacrificing your 35mm cine-sized depth-of-field characteristics, but still retaining all the benefits of RAW acquisition for later post-processing in REDCINE), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE.

OPTION 3: Acquire 2K REDCODE RGB, using the windowed 2K sensor area, at up to 120fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which again, now effects a x3.24 cropping factor in 2K], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 720p image (sacrificing your 35mm cine-sized depth-of-field characteristics, and limiting your post-processing options), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE. Rescale back up to 1080p in REDCINE.

Brook Willard

02-11-2007, 08:35 PM

You're right, my fault.

Joe Walker

02-12-2007, 07:31 AM

Shoot, I'll take 120fps at 720p! :)

Jeff Kilgroe

02-12-2007, 09:07 AM

720p120? F*K yeah! Awesome for lots of things, especially since most clients are still taking delivery on DVD or other SD format anyway. If the 720p120 is scaled down from the 2K window, that should be one heck of a nice upgrade from pixel-shifted 720p60 overcompressed 4:2:2, ickyness I get from my HVX200 right now.

And to think at this time last year I thought my HVX200 was the shiznit.