Just Hit Delete

[tj williams]

Other digital cameras have clip organization and management tools they even have the ability to bring up a clip image icon for each take, to sort thru them. Is that what the white screen on the back of the red is used for???

A really important feature for me will be delete. Instead of taking a card(cards) out of the camera to download the whole thing at the work station we can
delete a scene or two to make room for another take.

An example its sunset from a mountain top, we hiked all day to get there. Shooting with HDcam and out of tape we decided to erase a scene and shoot
over it to capture the sunset for 30 sec. So we backed the tape up to the start of the scene to be deleted and recorded over that section of tape. Of course this fried the time code! HOw much better to just hit delete and gain the card/disk room!

[Brook Willard]

AFAIK, the "white" screen on the back will display key camera setup information [think resolution, frame rate, storage remaining, etc...]. Maybe it will be able to display the menu, maybe audio levels, who knows? We don't even know if it's an LCD or a more basic display.

[tj williams]

HI Brook, thanks for chiming in!

OF course the usual course here for menues is on the viewfinder output.
That probably works better since the lcd will be larger.

The idea of storage time remaining, Battery life, even audio levels. can sure be useful. I hope it dims so it is not also reflected onto the talent as a camera light and bright enough to see in daylite?

[Stuart English]

(BTW yes to the brightness comments in your last paragraph TJ)

Deleting clips is a major headache unfortunately, best to be avoided if there is any alternative available. The problem is that allowing it as a generic operating mode quickly leads to media fragmentation and if that happens we can't 100% guarentee that clips will always be recorded properly.

In a one off emergency as you illustrated, maybe we can find an elegant way to accomodate a "clip overwite" - i.e the new footage has to be the same resolution and frame rate, and same duration as the clip "erased"

Thoughts?

[tj williams]

Stuart that would be great. same show same rez same frame rate.... elegance yet! Thanks, that will be a real save my butt at some point!
tj

[GlennChan]

What about simply carrying and extra magazine?? Simple and elegant?

2- What if you could mark clips as bad or good (with the default being neutral).

On the other hand, even sometimes bad clips can be useful. It doesn't really hurt that much to keep them kicking around, other than increasing editing time. Although I suppose for undisciplined or perfectionist editors, this might be a bad thing. Whereas with film it's harder to get bogged down.

3- IMO, being able to delete clips in the field is pretty dangerous and makes the camera trickier to operate. It may be just as likely that you have a 'brainfart' day where you accidentally delete something compared to being stuck at the top of a mountain without tape/media.

[Chris Kenny]

Surely in any plausible real-world scenario the fragmentation problem can't be that bad? It's not as if there are going to be hundreds or thousands of tiny non-contiguous free blocks. There are going to be a handful of relatively large blocks -- probably a couple of hundred megs up through dozens of gigs.

Say you shoot a full mag, and then go back and delete five clips, leaving five non-contiguous blocks of free space, and then you record one final clip which is long enough to fill all of that space. Sure, there will be some head seeking while recording this clip... but only a handful of times (assuming you've looked up where all the contiguous blocks are before you start recording, etc. so you can just jump right there, instead of having to read on-disk directory information during recording), separated by, at a minimum, the duration of the shortest clip.

That duration is going to be an eternity relative to a head seek... so to avoid unacceptable data rate drops when recording to non-contiguous space, the camera, it would seem, only really needs to make up for single head seek every few seconds at most (a take isn't likely to be much shorter than that). I don't pretend to be as much of an expert as Stuart, but this doesn't seem too implausible to me, making reasonable assumptions about how much of a buffer the camera would have, and given the throughput of a striped dual 2.5" drive RAID, which is my understanding of what RED-DRIVE is.

How about this... the camera allows deletion, but always records to the largest contiguous space on the drive. When the largest contiguous space doesn't provide room for more than a certain amount of footage (preferably specified by the user), the camera issues a warning that it can't guarantee there won't be problems if the next take is over X seconds, but it will try to record anyway.

All of this said... we plan to use our Red primarily for narrative feature work, where even just the ~3 hours provided by a single 300 GB RED-DRIVE is way more than you'd typically need on a given shooting day, so it won't be a huge deal for us, at least, if deleting in the field turns out to be technically problematic.

[Ralph Oshiro]

In a one off emergency as you illustrated, maybe we can find an elegant way to accomodate a "clip overwite" - i.e the new footage has to be the same resolution and frame rate, and same duration as the clip "erased"

Thoughts?Well, that sounds just fine! I for one, KNOW that I'll be rolling on false-start takes by the dozens. Even just a, "delete the take I just rolled on so I can try it again," feature would suit my needs perfectly. Just make it real hard to do it by accident!

[Gregory Karydis]

Fragmentation on RED Flash must be a non-issue
But on any other HDD recording medium fragmentation can drop data rates by up to 90% even if you just have 2-3 non contigous sections.

I see only one solution to this issue; raise the camera price by 1-2k$ and add an internal flash memory of 32-128GB then allow the option to cut/edit/delete ANYTHING so long as it's kept on the flash memory and when the memory fills up have the option to transfer to the attatched storage (to free up the internal flash) or continue shooting to the attatched storage WITHOUT the option to cut/edit/delete.

Another option would be to include a defragmentation option for when the camera is idle.

[Chris Kenny]

Fragmentation on RED Flash must be a non-issue
But on any other HDD recording medium fragmentation can drop data rates by up to 90% even if you just have 2-3 non contigous sections.

How? Seriously. We're not talking about random writes of 4K blocks here. A < 5 ms seek every few hundred megabytes is simply not going to reduce transfer rates 90%.

To bring some actual numbers into this... I've got a dual 3.5" 7200 RPM drive internal SATA RAID in this machine. Writing 256K sequential blocks, it does 124 MB/s. Writing 256K random blocks, this drops to 51 MB/s. This is a far more extreme case than we'd ever see with Red, with probably a couple hundred times more seeking, and even there you don't see drops of 90%.

To expand a little... let's say the camera needs a minimum of 30 MB/s to record 4K REDCODE RAW. For every 5 ms seek, we fall 0.005 seconds behind. This requires us to buffer all of 154 KB of data... and there will only be a handful of such seek operations in plausible real-world scenarios. This does not exactly seem impossible to overcome. Unless there's some other factor I'm missing, this really doesn't seem like a major issue.

[Hrvoje Simic]

What if RAM was used as cache to store the smaller clips?
When done-
Good clip -STORE
Bad clip -REWRITE/FORMAT

This way RAM could have at least two functions.
The other one could be recording of user defined time before the REC button is pressed (as suggested by the people here and at DVXuser some time ago).

Maybe this could also speed things up regarding disk startup time etc...


I don't support fragmentation of files if that will lead to constant need for storage defragmentation or if it will reduce the performance.

If there is no other way, just include some type of clip marking for a quick delete (without the need to review everything ) later.
Simple as that.

[Finner]

These are all the kind of options that up the R&D and costs of HD ENG/EFP cameras. RED was set out to be a digital cinema camera that was then decided to be a little eNG/EFP friendly as well.

Personally I hope RED spends no time on these kind of features at all. Keep the camera simple. For those that use the camera for eng/efp just carry a lot of flash memory. in a short amount of time the cost of re-using will off set and it will be a lot cheaper then tape.

A bunch of different menu options add cost and I don't see where they are needed.

[tj williams]

Hi All,
Thanks again for supporting some elegant form of clip delete Stuart. I also thought Jeffs point was well taken. How many times have we started rolling only to see somthing on the subjects teeth, have them completely goof up, or do some other embarrasing thing right off the top. How nice to be able to say I just erased that from the magazine, it will never see the light of day! I shoot a lot of interviews and that would do wonders to put the client at ease. They often visualize their goofy moments showing up on a Blooper or Party tape. This would also allow us to erase takes directly after recording possibly not causeing so much fragmentation issue. Often we know immediately the take won't be used. Its just one more to use space and for the editor to look through.

TJ

Glenn I think we should be reassured by Stuarts statement "Elegant" means to me pretty fool proof to do by accident. A couple of years ago we shot a tape job about forest fire fighters. We hiked in to a fire over 7 hours from the road to shoot B roll. To our suprise we were able to get interviews of a number of the firefighters with supervision permission. We rolled every inch and rolled over other footage "on tape" to get all we could. Maybe your work is more studio but a lot of what I do contains big elements of the unforseen.
Yes it is elegant to carry an extra magazine. Ask the Imax crew on Everest when they had carried mags for their plan and found themselves in the midst of the biggest disaster ever to occur there!

Hi Finner

Ok so you live in LA and make your whole living shooting indy features and you never shoot ENG style. I'm out here in the hinterlands and my living is a very mixed bag of shooting. I wish I got to shoot more feature stuff, but thus it goes. Consider a couple of things here:

1. Other cameras which output HD are used for television production predominantly eng style as a far more common use. If the RED sells into this market there will be more reds by a huge difference, thus more acceptance, better backup rental availability, more accessories in rental houses, and the possibility of better pricing on accessories and software because of volume. All of which benefits you.

2. How many time have you heard "action" on a movie set and the dolly grip bumped the camera, or the focus shifted to the wrong person, or the talent started before you thought he was going to and marched out of composition. If you could erase those immediately and without delay they will never show up in dailies!

[Hrvoje Simic]

These are all the kind of options that up the R&D and costs of HD ENG/EFP cameras. RED was set out to be a digital cinema camera that was then decided to be a little eNG/EFP friendly as well.

Personally I hope RED spends no time on these kind of features at all. Keep the camera simple. For those that use the camera for eng/efp just carry a lot of flash memory. in a short amount of time the cost of re-using will off set and it will be a lot cheaper then tape.

A bunch of different menu options add cost and I don't see where they are needed.



I agree on R&D and cost issues.

However, since RED is cinema camera, even feature film production ends up with a lot of redundant data. If uneccessary keeping track of all files and later reviewing can be avoided by reasonable effort invested into it, I'm all for it.

"Okay, we invened revolutionary new digital technology, and as you once ended up with tons of worthless rolls of film, this time you just buy more memory."
I dunno....but to me this seems like it could be avoided.

Aanyway...the RED guys will evaluate priorities and certainly won't loose time on something they decide is uneccessary..

I believe the potential of digital technology should be used as much as reasonably possible.

[Hrvoje Simic]

2. How many time have you heard "action" on a movie set and the dolly grip bumped the camera, or the focus shifted to the wrong person, or the talent started before you thought he was going to and marched out of composition. If you could erase those immediately and without delay they will never show up in dailies!

I rest my case.

[Rob Lohman]

2. How many time have you heard "action" on a movie set and the dolly grip bumped the camera, or the focus shifted to the wrong person, or the talent started before you thought he was going to and marched out of composition. If you could erase those immediately and without delay they will never show up in dailies!

I rest my case.

What? No more funny set outtakes on the Blu-rays & HD DVD's? :eek: It's not gonna be a funny future I guess.... :( :D

[Curran Giddens]

I would also be interested in the "delete the take I just rolled on so I can try it again" feature. For this you won't run into the problem of writing over non-contiguous space. I will know right away if the take was good or not. This way the recording media won't get filled up as fast, and there will be less time spent on processing bad footage. You could always tag a take as bad in the metadata, and maybe Redcine could automatically skip it in processing.

[Hrvoje Simic]

What? No more funny set outtakes on the Blu-rays & HD DVD's? :eek: It's not gonna be a funny future I guess.... :( :D

Now you're just trying to avoid the subject......;)

Okay okay, just say "we won't do it, people!"

[GlennChan]

Ask the Imax crew on Everest when they had carried mags for their plan and found themselves in the midst of the biggest disaster ever to occur there!
Ok, I see your point and didn't think about that (I don't do EFP).

But... ;)
It is so bad to carry around an extra magazine? An extra magazine shouldn't be terribly heavy, and should record several hours of footage (even more if you can lower the bitrate). Knowing that you're using a Red camera, you could just carry an extra magazine just in case??

In any case, I think it's a marginal decision. I prefer simplicity.

2- Bloopers and screwups are useful IMO. In editing, you might cut these in a way that works in the context of your edit.

As well, a lot of TV shows + movies make money off versioning their product, selling DVDs with extras and then some 'special' edition DVD that has even more stuff. Having all the bloopers around would be useful in such a situation.

[tj williams]

HI Glenn.... Trust me I'll be carrying around all the magazines I can afford, and I'll be packing them in different cases when going to the airport.

Quote me: "2. How many time have you heard "action" on a movie set and the dolly grip bumped the camera, or the focus shifted to the wrong person, or the talent started before you thought he was going to and marched out of composition. If you could erase those immediately and without delay they will never show up in dailies!"

I was trying to talk about camera dept/dolly grip. screw ups Those aren't funny!!!!!

Funny screw ups are like big pratfalls by the star or the producer saying the F word to a nun, Or a talent opening a set door and the whole wall moves.

[HD Hildebrand]

Perhaps just a "delete last take" only. This way you won't mix it up with some other take and you can keep rolling without fear of fragmentation.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Perhaps just a "delete last take" only. This way you won't mix it up with some other take and you can keep rolling without fear of fragmentation.

That would be very useful, got my vote!

[Finner]

Hi Finner

Ok so you live in LA and make your whole living shooting indy features and you never shoot ENG style. I'm out here in the hinterlands and my living is a very mixed bag of shooting. I wish I got to shoot more feature stuff, but thus it goes. Consider a couple of things here:

1. Other cameras which output HD are used for television production predominantly eng style as a far more common use. If the RED sells into this market there will be more reds by a huge difference, thus more acceptance, better backup rental availability, more accessories in rental houses, and the possibility of better pricing on accessories and software because of volume. All of which benefits you.

2. How many time have you heard "action" on a movie set and the dolly grip bumped the camera, or the focus shifted to the wrong person, or the talent started before you thought he was going to and marched out of composition. If you could erase those immediately and without delay they will never show up in dailies!

I am currently shooting up in Canada not LA.

I started out in this bussiness as a TV reporter, became an ENG shooter and still do EFP work from time to time.

I rarely work on indy films mainly A level features.

You would be suprisied how many times the shot that you thought was crap in the field and want to erase has a piece of gold in it that fits perfect in the edit. (Never erase something already shot until the edit process).

When I worked as an ENG guy I simply carried extra tapes, its not that hard. I come from the same background as you and know the deal. Before lately you recorded to a tape and unless you wanted to take big big chances you did not rewind and try and record over little pieces here and there (I never did). It is so much easier to plan ahead bring what you need for memory and shoot. I truely believe that sony and a lot of other companys are spending a ton of money to bring convienient but extremely expensive features that we really hardly need. This is why RED is smart. They have trimmed the BS and given us a camera that has the features that are really needed and put their focus on a obtaining a great image.

Simply bring and buy extra memory. It's small and the cost in the end after useing it many times is very cheap.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have to agree with Finner. Even using 4GB P2 cards I rarely delete a take in the field. I believe it is better to keep your concentration on the next take rather than trying to decide if you really want to risk dumping the last one.

[Steve Gibby]

RED was set out to be a digital cinema camera that was then decided to be a little eNG/EFP friendly as well.

Hey Finner,

The EFP/ENG-style capabilities of RED One were not just an afterthought or later add-on concept. RED One was termed a digital cinema camera from it's first announcement, but it was also planned from the very beginning that it would be a flexible camera system that could be accessorized to do EFP and some ENG-style (not necessarily news gathering, but ENG-style). How do I know these things?

1) I was an invited attendee to the very first spec planning meeting for RED One at Oakley headquarters, in December 2005. Though I also shoot cine-style, I have a deep EFP and ENG-style production background and I gave extensive input on what I felt RED One should be at that meeting. I also gave digital cinema input there. It was an awesome think tank that day…

2) From the very announcement of RED One, after that first meeting, the proposed RED camera was called a digital cinema camera but acknowledged as additionally a camera for EFP/ENG-style production, when accessorized for such. The big difference being that the RED camera would be an all-manual camera – but a lot of EFP work is manual also.

3) Multiple statements from the RED team since the announcement of RED One have verified it as a digital cinema camera, but affirmed its additional broad use as an EFP/ENG-style camera. As an example, if you haven't read it, please read my April 2006 published interview with Jim Jannard. You'll find several affirmations in that interview that RED One was being designed as both a digital cinema camera and an EFP/ENG-style camera. Here's a link to that interview: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/6388.html

All this said, I agree with your position on this thread about not having field erasure capability on RED One as a feature. I’ve always felt that reviewing/erasing footage in the field was full of pitfalls. In fact, when I’ve functioned as a director for tape-based acquisition productions in the field, one of my hard and fast rules for my camera ops has always been that they not review their footage. There’s too much opportunity to put hits in tapes, record over valuable footage, etc. In disc-based and Flash-based recording, in non-hardlined environments, I still keep the same rules for my crews (and myself if I’m shooting) – no review in the field. It’s a distraction, disks/Flash could be misplaced, footage could be mistakenly erased from the media, etc. Digital acquisition is a WYSIWYG environment. We use EVF and monitors that show you what you’re shooting/getting – in real time. Add in the factor of shooting RAW, which can be deeply tweaked in pre-post and post, and I just don’t see the need to review and erase footage in the field when doing non-hardlined EFP and ENG-style production - or mobile digital cinema either.

So, I agree with your position on not reviewing/erasing in the field, but I hope now you realize that the EFP/ENG-style capabilities of RED One were not a later-added afterthought, but rather well thought out capabilities that have been part of RED One from “Day One”. That's the beauty of RED One to me - flexibility and utility across multiple genres and styles of production.

I appreciate your input, and I think you bring some great insight into real-world production issues. TJ, the same for you. Your posts are interesting and reflect a good view of the issues involved with mobile EFP production.

Peace…

[tj williams]

Hi Steve, I made an IMDB search wondering if we'd ever worked together. I have worked a bunch in Canada, way back. Somehow couldn't find you??? TJ Williams is my actual name,
Anyhoo I agree the feature set I'd like to see isn't for everyone. If you'll go back to my first post on this thread I was talking about those media management features which are starting to show up on Broadcast cameras as they go digital. I think many of these features are quite valuable and since they are software maybe not all that expensive to introduce into the RED.

Some of them:

1. a picture from the clip as an icon of the clip along with the time recorded and length of the clip. visable in the viewfinder or monitor.
2. The ability to manipulate these clips into selects, outtakes, neutral clips, and the ability to erase or reorganize them as you see fit.
(recognizing that erasing other than the last clip may have speed loss effects on the mag. drives, this probably means the ability to defrag the mag. or limits us to only the last clip)
3. I would also like the ability to choose what to run out off the mag. so I wouldnt have to fill up the hard drives on the portable computer with a buncha stuff, just to be able to send the 15 important clips, all rendered, along with the client.

I realize these features are not for everyone, and I would hope that the RED development team, will allow you to delete them from your camera if you wish. I may also find features I don't like and the ability to delete access to features for our differences in opinion about whats valuable and especially for rental houses is probably good.

Gibby: There seems to be quite a bit of support for allowing at least erasure of the last clip from other posters, which would be useful to some of us. We all have different philosophys about recording. I for instance almost always start my day with a short record and playback. When I can't fit that in I try to playback the picture and sound from the first recording. The reason I do that is to be sure that I'm actually making a recording, although I'm passing signal to a monitor, that doesn't mean the tape deck/ disk drive/etc is actually working! because I'm a little paranoid I do this again at wrap. Unless we are making playbacks for a client all day,as often happens on spots.

[Stuart English]

If it did exist, any suggestions how a "Delete / Overwrite the Last Clip" should be incorporated into the camera's physical / menu interfaces?

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Steve, I made an IMDB search wondering if we'd ever worked together. I have worked a bunch in Canada, way back. Somehow couldn't find you??? TJ Williams is my actual name, .

Was this paragraph for Steve Gibby? If you did an IMDB search for me, you won’t find a listing for me on IMDB because I’ve never submitted data to have a file created. Almost all of my career work is eligible by their criteria, but the largest bulk of my work has been television, and I had significant credits, marketing, and Rolodex long before IMDB was an option. If you visit my web sites, or do a Google search for my name you’ll find a wealth of info on me and my projects. At some point I may submit data for an IMDB profile, but its not a high priority for me right now.


1. a picture from the clip as an icon of the clip along with the time recorded and length of the clip. visable in the viewfinder or monitor. .

Sure…I’m familiar with that feature on cameras I’ve used. It can be useful, but for me it isn’t a high priority feature to ask for on RED One. RED One will already have a potential bunch of programmable icons and data available for the LCD & EVF. If it would mean delaying the release of RED One to engineer this feature, I’d just as soon do without it.


2. The ability to manipulate these clips into selects, outtakes, neutral clips, and the ability to erase or reorganize them as you see fit. (recognizing that erasing other than the last clip may have speed loss effects on the mag. drives, this probably means the ability to defrag the mag. or limits us to only the last clip) .

Last clip delete would be fine for me, and I’ve used many other cameras that have these features. That said, RED can only pack so many features into the camera, and at some point they have to stop taking feature requests, and build and deliver the camera. Perhaps some of these could be optional firmware upgrades downloadable to the camera at sometime in the future.


3. I would also like the ability to choose what to run out off the mag. so I wouldnt have to fill up the hard drives on the portable computer with a buncha stuff, just to be able to send the 15 important clips, all rendered, along with the client. .

For nearly 3 decades of shooting my motto, and the motto I ask my crews to abide by, has been “All killer – and no filler”. I ask myself and my crews to not pull the trigger on a shot unless it is a real good shot and they feel they have it right. Also, as a career-long editor of programs, I know the last thing I want myself or my editors to suffer through is having to log and sort through a lot of unusable or extraneous footage. I repeatedly have editors of our footage say things like “Hey, over 90% of the footage on your mags, tapes, or drives was usable – you made our job easier". I see that you have a similar goal, to get to the footage dump (hard drive, etc.) with only the “keepers”. I have that same goal, but also a goal to satisfy that need at the acquisition stage – not by a selective dump before the real dump. I don’t view RED One not having that selective dump ability as a hindrance to my workflow. I guess everyone has their own nuances of workflow…




Gibby: There seems to be quite a bit of support for allowing at least erasure of the last clip from other posters, which would be useful to some of us. We all have different philosophys about recording. I for instance almost always start my day with a short record and playback. When I can't fit that in I try to playback the picture and sound from the first recording. The reason I do that is to be sure that I'm actually making a recording, although I'm passing signal to a monitor, that doesn't mean the tape deck/ disk drive/etc is actually working! because I'm a little paranoid I do this again at wrap. Unless we are making playbacks for a client all day,as often happens on spots.

Ability for quick erasure of the last clip would be fine with me. The first time me or one of my crew used that feature and mistakenly erased a critical footage sequence from an event we were covering, or was reviewing the last clip while missing other critical shots for the show, I’d have to ban the use of that feature. It’s one thing in a slow paced EFP/ENG-style setting, where lets say you’re out by yourself shooting some stock footage or b-roll. Then you’d have plenty of time to review the last clip regularly and do a “keep/toss” decision. But in a faster paced EFP/ENG-style environment where it is critical that everybody get it right the first time, I expect my crews to do just that – and there just isn’t time for them to be constantly reviewing their last shots.


----------------------------------------------------------

I think the features you asked for are all logical, and they are already in use on various EFP/ENG-style cameras. Unfortunately time is money for RED, and the R & D money clock is ticking away on RED One. RED is already bringing us the most versatile and flexible camera ever made – one that should be great for cine-style and EFP/ENG style production – at an astounding price point – with features we never dreamed of. That said, there will be some features that people ask for that don’t make it into the camera, or are firmware upgrade that will arrive later. Outside of last clip delete, I think the other features you asked for won’t make it into RED One, if nothing else because of the time factor in getting the camera produced, and the fact that there hasn’t been a high demand for those features over all these months of feedback on RED One development. Again, they are good suggestions, and they could possibly be future optional firmware upgrades, but something tells me you won’t see most of them on the initial version of RED One.

[Chris Kenny]

If it did exist, any suggestions how a "Delete / Overwrite the Last Clip" should be incorporated into the camera's physical / menu interfaces?

It's a little hard to say without knowing more about how the camera's interface works in general, but...

If you guys are implementing digital slating, you might consider having the interface for that come up after a take is completed. At that time, the camera would confirm the scene/shot/take (by default assuming the same scene/shot as the previous take, and automatically incrementing the take number). This interface would let you manually change any of that information for the take that had just been completed, and also give you a couple of other options, like "mark good" (attaches appropriate metadata), "review" (plays the take back, then returns to the slating interface), and "delete". A simple "Are you sure?" confirmation for deleting should be sufficient.

There should also be an option to disable the deleting feature; to remove that menu item. Some productions will have a policy against using it, and if the operator had to go into an options menu and explicitly re-enable it, it would discourage use in such cases.

[Corrado Silveri]

If it did exist, any suggestions how a "Delete / Overwrite the Last Clip" should be incorporated into the camera's physical / menu interfaces?

I don't want this feature.... Give my vote to Finner:

"Never erase something already shot until the edit process".

[Hrvoje Simic]

Well......if the delete/overwrite button existed....my suggestion would be...

After the shot is completed
-> two small icons appear under the screen (text takes too much space and brain faster detects pics than words)
LEFT-DELETE-garbage bin , RIGHT - PROCEED-film roll icon or similar symbol
The default setting is "proceed" and this option needs no action.
This will speed up and simplify the process. No accidental deletion and "Ups guys, I forgot to press PROCEED" type of situations.

-> For deletion shooter needs to push a different button, situated possibly on the left :rolleyes:

No additonal menus needed, no too much timetaking R&D.

I think the best physical solution would be a 4-directional multifunctional button on the left of the REC button (confirmation would be either 5th direction - a push in, or another button).

Another possible location for the DELETE/OVERWRITE button would be on the left front end of the cam body, as close to the lens as possible.
For me, multifunctionality of those buttons is also important
(space taking, simplicity, design..etc)

Gibby's suggestion reminded me of the importance of providing a possibility of firmware upgrade.
Re-programmable internal camera system could leave you guys the time to perfect the hardware part and just release the extra features for the REDcore as you develope them.

[Hrvoje Simic]

just an idea...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/589_1170597905.jpg

..for a quick and easy access, even without looking.
The middle button is a 4 directional button.
Later software upgrades could provide customization of camera's menu and settings.

[GlennChan]

Maybe you can make it so that you have to explicitly enable the delete feature (and/or a digital slating feature). This makes the camera more foolproof. Of course if you do this, most people will not know about this feature and will only find it useful if they've read the manual beforehand. Which may be ok, since most people will not need this feature (and for most people, it is an un-feature).

[Finner]

just an idea...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/589_1170597905.jpg

..for a quick and easy access, even without looking.
The middle button is a 4 directional button.
Later software upgrades could provide customization of camera's menu and settings.

This is a great idea to be able to access menu settings from the smart side.

[Gregory Karydis]

Coming from a DSLR environment (EOS 1D), to delete a shot you must press a combination of buttons so you may not accidentally make a mistake you regret.

I have used a scroll wheel to make selections and scroll through vast menus at a fast (controlled) pace and IF there was a scroll wheel on RED, I would feel right at home to press a button for the scroll wheel to move to a different selection. i.e. Delete [Yes - No]

[Stuart English]

Lets continue this discussion (theoretical, as we don't have the features in Rev1 firmware) Lets also assume we can easily upgrade camera firmware.

Also understand that the primary workflow for RED_ONE is intended to be - shoot a sequence of clips (gathering metadata as you go), then mount the Digital Magazine to REDCINE, where we can much more easily perform our good / not good take operations; then convert only your selected clips from RAW to RGB. (More REDCINE details later, but its important to know this as it puts in-camera clip management into context)

If we are shooting ENG/EFP we have a REC buttom on the B4 lens. Or if using P/L there's one on a Preston. If on a tripod we have a REC button on the back of the camera. There is also one more one on the "smart side"

Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?

Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?

There are also four keys on the side of the viewfinder -

http://red.com/images/photo_zoom/redone_7.jpg

Again, thanks for all the suggestions .....

[Júlio Taubkin]

As we are right now, do we slate our takes on set or do we have to wait and name them in REDCINE?

[Stuart English]

Explain ?

[Chris Kenny]

Also understand that the primary workflow for RED_ONE is intended to be - shoot a sequence of clips (gathering metadata as you go), then mount the Digital Magazine to REDCINE, where we can much more easily perform our good / not good take operations; then convert only your selected clips from RAW to RGB. (More REDCINE details later, but its important to know this as it puts in-camera clip management into context)


Hmm... I think being able to set a simple 'mark good' flag on set could be a big timesaver, despite the fact that the on-camera interface is obviously going to be rather more awkward than what you can do in REDCINE. On-set, you mostly wouldn't even have to review the take to set this flag, since you'd just seen it live. By the time you get into REDCINE, you don't remember which takes were good and you have to watch them all again to figure it out.

Of course, the editor is probably going to watch everything eventually anyway, but it would be great to have some guidance up front from on-set metadata.



If we are shooting ENG/EFP we have a REC buttom on the B4 lens. Or if using P/L there's one on a Preston. If on a tripod we have a REC button on the back of the camera. There is also one more one on the "smart side"

Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?


This feels slightly less intuitive to me than just having a 'delete last take' command. On the other hand, if I'm understanding the way this works, it does have one big practical advantage; the previous take isn't actually deleted until you record the next one, so you have as much time as possible to change your mind, and just toggle the OVERREC button back to REC.



Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?


What kind of GUI are you guys putting on the camera? Switching to OVERREC mode is going to be an uncommon enough operation that it's something you could just put in the menu interface. I don't see a compelling need to be able to toggle it from these user keys. After recording one take in OVERREC, the camera should switch back to REC mode automatically.

[Júlio Taubkin]

Explain ?

Can we name our takes (Scene 01 Shot 01 take 01), and see the file with a compatible name, or our files are going to be called something like 3_38753f002.red ?

BTW, I'm also aggainst deleting stuff on set. Even if it's a delete last take, make it VERY hard to find. Kind of like color adjustments on Sony prosumer cameras...

[Hrvoje Simic]

Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?

Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?


I wouldn't recommend changing the function of the most important button.
In attention-demanding or no-second-chance situations this could be very risky.

The most fool-proof solution in my opinion would be that after recording session is over -

one user key becomes DELETE
and the other CONFIRM

or

one user key becomes DELETE +one more press to CONFIRM
and the other user key would be left for "next scene", "next take" or what ever could be useful or firmware upgraded later

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Just one question.

What happens if, for some unlikely reason, the operator forguet to push the STOP button…?
And it's a remote location and this is the golden hour, and tomorrow the weather changes drastically…
And of course this is the last drive available and there is still many things to shoot that day…
If ther is no way to erase, at least the last shot, this all seems like a bad bad fix you're in.

Yours Emmanuel

[tj williams]

Stuart: Quote: Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?
Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?
There are also four keys on the side of the viewfinder -

First I think the step of engaging the overrecording function should be a menu option. overrecording shoult not be possible unless you have engaged it. Powering the camera down should again disengage it. Once it is engaged in the menu however, it should be easily available. Since the operator has chosen to have it available.

I think it should involves three steps:
1. decide to overrecord
2. Confirm the decision.
3. Over-record

Perhaps on the RED any record button is depressed once to start recording and any record button once to stop recording. usually this is how electronic cameras work in any case a momentary switch is closed. This is different in film cameras where often the circuit is held closed while running.

In that case double clicking the start button would bring up a flag in the center of the viewfinder and lcd OVER-RECORDING ENGAGED

Then in would be necessary to double click the same start button again to confirm the desire to over-record after that the next start would overrecord the last take.

If you changed your mind in the meantime use of some secondary button would remove over-record. perhaps pressing the other two action buttons down together?

You wouldn't want to use the same button double clicked again as it could accidently start overrecording on the first of the double clicks.

[Zach Hilton]

Just one question.

What happens if, for some unlikely reason, the operator forguet to push the STOP button…?
And it's a remote location and this is the golden hour, and tomorrow the weather changes drastically…
And of course this is the last drive available and there is still many things to shoot that day…
If ther is no way to erase, at least the last shot, this all seems like a bad bad fix you're in.

Yours Emmanuel

Get a different DP for starters. Of course all of this stuff is a learning process. I for one am against a delete last take button or any thing of the sort. A lot of the scenarios that are cooked up in this particular thread seem sort of obscure. If money isn't an issue, then just buy a RED Flash drive and mark it as the emergency never to be used unless it has to be sort of thing, then when you're in that golden hour in a remote location, or need to shoot right then and there, you can. Of course that is a more expensive fix then just deleting the last take. Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Jared VanLeuven]

As obscure as the need for such a feature may rightly be, I am for having the choice made available if it is not too difficult to incorporate in the camera's software. Maximum flexibility.

[tj williams]

The combination of many unlikely reasons is likely. This is clear not obscure.

[shaftbond]

i don't plan on ever using this feature. i can't count how many times i had a shot marked as no good, only to find something (a shorter version of it before the boom dipped, better audio, etc) that was usable in the final cut.

that being said, i respect everyone's freedom to delete on set if that's what they want to do. and to reiterate:

-can only be activated through the menu
-a button combo (ie: the "smart side" record and a user key simultaneously to put it into "set" mode to OVERREC. have the viewfinder indicate it is in OVERREC mode. then press the record button again to activate it.) would be easier than double clicking.
-have it automatically kick back to normal RECORD mode after the OVERREC has been stopped (and of course when the camera has been powered off)

as far as naming clips on set (being able to enter the Scene and Shot Number and have the camera automatically count the takes would be useful), editing with 27Bt3 (Scene 27 Shot B take 3) would be quicker than renaming in post.

and flagging good/bad clips is nice, not too high on my priority list (i'll have a script supervisor on set)

[Poi Boy]

I prefer the simple route and I never erase a clip during a shoot...you are just asking for trouble. Carry more media, does't get simpler or more elegant than that.
Aloha
-A

[Owen]

I'm with the camp who believes that even a clip that seems useless on set can save you in post, however I've also been in that "MUST HAVE 30 SECONDS MORE!" situation of having to delete a clip from P2.

That said, I would prefer if clips can only be deleted ONE at a time. The HVX, in my opinion, does a poor job of safe clip deletion. You can have multiple clips selected and not even realize it because it merely higlights a little box around each clip. It's surprisingly easy to accidentally select multiple clips, then go to DELETE thinking you're only getting rid of one clip. The HVX does warn you with "Delete 5 clips?" but at this point you're on the last step of deletion, and I know I've quickly hit yes just as I realized multiple clips were selected. Not good. That's a learning curve I could have lived without!

[tj williams]

Owen
A totally great point. Deletion should be a sub-menu item. and totally clear with a confirm command needed. I think the confirm command should be on a different button altogether so it's near impossible to do by accident.

The last time I saw a half a mag roll off the asst. did it not the Dp. Anyhoo it would as likely be the operator, unless the Dp is also the operator.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

These are all the kind of options that up the R&D and costs of HD ENG/EFP cameras. RED was set out to be a digital cinema camera that was then decided to be a little eNG/EFP friendly as well.

Personally I hope RED spends no time on these kind of features at all. Keep the camera simple. For those that use the camera for eng/efp just carry a lot of flash memory. in a short amount of time the cost of re-using will off set and it will be a lot cheaper then tape.

A bunch of different menu options add cost and I don't see where they are needed.

Right Finner, I want' a digital camera obscura: a box, a hole, a light sensitive something, mean's a body, a lens, a sensor with lot of resolution, not to much gimmick at all. We can ad them later on, when the principal target of the camera is reeched: ready until spring.

[Steven Parker]

[QUOTE=Owen;11949]I'm with the camp who believes that even a clip that seems useless on set can save you in post, however I've also been in that "MUST HAVE 30 SECONDS MORE!" situation of having to delete a clip from P2.

Exactly, and tho more media seems to me the simplest solution, the OPTION of deleting a clip is paramount. I've rolled an F900 for twenty seconds on an actress going "oh, wait, my earring..." before I finally cut the roll. Starts to add up after a while, figuring digitizing... or RedCine rendering... DVD outtakes notwithstanding:shifty:

[tj williams]

Hey Finner:

Maybe we should hand crank like the Kinetta proposed?

Here are some other ways for the RED Crew to simplify:
1. get rid of all time code, we can put it in later in post.
2. Eliminate all the Cine software, sell it seperately later.
3. eliminate all outputs except HD SDI and let us all buy the converters we need. or break down and buy HD SDI monitors as this will not affect the base price of the camera.
4. get rid of the downconvert to HD RGB as it is not necessary for digital cinema.
5. Don't support any aftermarket lens manipulation of NIkon AF Lenses. or for that matter any non cinema lenses as they are not professional.

Of Course all this is a little toung -n -cheeky.... This is after all an electronic camera really a computer, driven by software.

I'll warrant that any of the above take much more programming time than a simple elegant delete function. It's hardly imaginable today to have a computer type product without delete or undo functions. I believe it is even possible to do a redo function...

[Finner]

Hey Finner:

Maybe we should hand crank like the Kinetta proposed?

Here are some other ways for the RED Crew to simplify:
1. get rid of all time code, we can put it in later in post.
2. Eliminate all the Cine software, sell it seperately later.
3. eliminate all outputs except HD SDI and let us all buy the converters we need. or break down and buy HD SDI monitors as this will not affect the base price of the camera.
4. get rid of the downconvert to HD RGB as it is not necessary for digital cinema.
5. Don't support any aftermarket lens manipulation of NIkon AF Lenses. or for that matter any non cinema lenses as they are not professional.


Now your starting to get it TJ:usd: :usd:

[Poi Boy]

buy more cards/hard drives/tape/whatever
-A

[tj williams]

Yes Finner n PoiBoi
We need less features and more parts to buy????

Strangely I'm worried that you may be taking me seriously even a a tiny bit here???

[Rodrigo Lizana]

[QUOTE=GlennChan;9212] 3- IMO, being able to delete clips in the field is pretty dangerous and makes the camera trickier to operate.

Second that. I´ve heard the story of a 2nd. camera men, who being so tired at the end of a long day, reloaded an exposed film back into the magazine. just imagine what a tired man can do with a couple buttons !.

The extra mag is the way to go.

Best regards

[tj williams]

I once had an asst. label the mag containing daylight low speed film as tungsten high speed. I have seen a sunset go away as an asst. tried to fit a 65 perf loop into a 54perf space. I have helped try n stop a dropped Panavision G2, (my back hurt for a week) Certainly there are a lot of ways to screw up. We can all sit at the bar at NAB and tell these stories. The list of all possible screwups must be longer than this forum....and some of them are pretty funny in retrospect.

Back to being serious:
Software feature sets are in all probability, not gonna engender extra cost to the camera. RED Team, already has a bunch of media management tools.
It appears for instance, that one can record only chosen parts of the magazine fm RAW to the output file form. A delete function can probably be installed pretty cheaply by RED. I also hope they keep the 17.5 price point! If it is gonna cost more, than 17.5 to put in DELETE they shouldn't do it.

I think the best solution is first: it"s not just: "bump a button" on the side of the camera. but in the menus. Those who want to use DELETE, may

For those who don't want to use DELETE, they should be able to disable it. This way we can have our cake or throw it out. no matter how tired we are.

[Poi Boy]

TJ, dude..you are relentless !
Aloha
-A

[Hrvoje Simic]

I took this quote from "Viewfinder design " thread


...... The guys I know in my age/experience bracket who fit the stereotype listed above are all about to die, retire, or be out-competed on the job – and a lot of them are in denial of that fact. I grew up professionally in “old school” workflows and technology. I respect all that and learned from all that – but never got to the professional point where I felt I had all the answers, and refused to learn more and evolve with the industry.

In the motion media industry of this century we either evolve or by our lack of evolution we program ourselves for professional extinction. The industry of the present and future is one of increased technology – and that trend won’t change or be reversed. RED One won’t immediately revolutionize the professional motion media industry workflow – because of the human nature impulse to resist change, resistance to having to re-learn workflows, ego, pride, legacy investments, and a number of other reasons. But RED One, and other camera systems like it, will inevitably succeed in progressively over time transforming and evolving the motion media industry.


I remember the situations where one shot was repeated up to thirty times due to at least twenty diferent factors. When the time came to review and edit the footage, one of the thing I was cursing was that damn tape which didn't allow better media manipulation on the set.
I remember imagining the day when non linear digital media (be it memory card, HDD or SSD) will save me hours and hours of my life.
This is the only part of this job I don't enjoy.

For the ones that don't realize or don't care about the importance of any clip management on the set - not only it could save time AND money, but you could also be more creative in editing when your brain is not fried with shots repeated dosens of times.
That is exactly how brainwashing works btw, so there's a food for thought.

People who are strictly camera operators couldn't care less about the guy reviewing the footage, but the point of this camera's price IS to make it available to smaller production houses, and by that to the all-around players.
Even in the case of larger movie productions, the amount of time saved simply by marking the shots with 1, 2, or 3 category ("good", "maybe" and "junk"), could save hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars.

Simple clip marking, which would be perceived quickly by different colours in the media library could be the easiest and most practical solution, if adding the delete option is too much time and cost consuming at this point.

That way, you could quickly free the media space, rearrrange the libraries, speed up production time AND save money.

Not one strong argument, but 4.

People are talking about editing 4k today, although there's no complete 4k workflow yet, and usable 4k screens don't even exist.
People talk about carrying around 50 hours of 4k footage in portable, lightweight, durable, cost effective, easy to manipulate media.
Ookay.
Sometimes we look so far ahead that we don't see the importance of something that is right in front of our nose right now.

Having an advanced media aquisition tool without using the management ability benefits of that type of media,
makes no sense to me, especially if this features could be implemented rather easily.

And yeah,
who needs bloopers in 4k ?

[tj williams]

Omen I like the color tag idea a lot.

Maybe Green for go Yellow for maybe and RED for worthless actress hair adjustment and out of focus?

Last night on a spot we shot over 400ft of super 16mm of turning the camera upside down? Can anyone believe we need all of those? about 1/2 way through they changed the way they were doing it, and announced that the first200ft could not work...

You and I really agree about this. My first post on this thread was a plea for media management at the RAW level.

[Joe Aurili]

I just assumed a delete clip would be available. Seems like it would be important if you are using a compact flash with pretty limited recording space, or if you are stuck for more space on larger media. I still assume there is a review clip to see what you just recorded?

[Priyesh P.]

Don´t know if anybody thought about this, but especially with harddrives , wouldn´t there be fragmentation issues after some times which causes the data rate to go down ? And what about RAM / flash-based memory, do they have the same issues. Generally, do we need to reformat the mags after downloading footage to ensure proper data rates ?

EDIT: I Didn´t read the first page, fragmentation IS an issue, but that reinforces my question about having to regularly format the media or not.

[Martin Ludwig]

best way_ never delete files on the set! it is so dangerous to delete the wrong file. You have no backup - if it is lost - it is gone !

[Michael Brennan]

With a few exceptions BBC factual and learning have recently adopted DVCPROHD

At a recent BBC run "HD day" a senior production manager advised the audience of cameramen and producers that flash cards and tape should be rationed and film style shooting ratios adopted.
Hard drive storage is limited, she said!
So one step sideways (into low res HD) and one backwards.

Rolling whilst waiting for something to happen has its place in documentaries or commercials with animals and children.

Deleting files will enable loop record like functionality as well as satisying corporate bean counters.

Mike

[Mike the beginner]

Now i am the very guy likely to make a mistake! Would i want the facility to record over a take i considered useless. Yes, but only if i was absolutely 100% sure that it was only the last stop start take. Also this facility would be dangerous for me if it was in a menu choice. Murpheys law suggest i would somehow manage to find that facility and inadvertantly press it!

The idea of a seperate button to be pressed to activate such a facility should eliminate any wrong doing provided the button was not used for anything else. You press the button (placed in an unusual area of the camera perhaps) it brings up a menu box all in its own with DELETE. Then you press to go into that menu and you have to select record over previous stop start only. In other word anything to do with delete is kept well away from all other menus. Done in this way you could also put erase complete tape as an option. But it has to be pretty fool proof!

Just a beginners thoughts.

[feb31films]

Since we're talking digital cinema here, you may know that this feature has been implemented in the Viper Filmstream. Heard an interview with David Fincher saying he used this feature during the filming of Zodiac. I've never used a Viper, so I don't know how it's implemented in that (much more expensive!) system, but Fincher to delete unusable footage, one would presume they were of the kind TJ was talking about... Of course, Fincher admitted that he wasn't worrried about "losing" good footage because he films a ridiculous shooting ratio of something like 25:1

The best quote from the interview was when he said that "...what you're not prepared for is the look on an actor's face when you say 'Let's just delete that take, we'll do it again.'"

[Stuart English]

Nothing to do with Filmstream or Viper.

Fincher reportedly forced S2 to modify their D.Mag disk recorder's code to allow him to delete the takes he didn't like on set ...

[Thom Steinhoff]

Stuart, wrote a followup to the Delete and End slate here first then decided to move it to Red one in it's own thread...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1208

[Chris Gearhart]

. . . clip management on the set - not only it could save time AND money, but you could also be more creative in editing when your brain is not fried with shots repeated dosens of times.
That is exactly how brainwashing works btw, so there's a food for thought.

Omen, I am with you on that one. Maybe my editing prowess needs to be beefed up, but I lose perspective after multiple takes. Now, granted, after marking p2 clips with a gradation I still end up looking at them all anyway, but at least they are not all seen with the same intensity, and I glaze over slower. Marking clips in camera would also save time in that I wouldn't have to take a break and return to the marked clips later, fresh for the creative pass.

And Thom, I really like your ideas in the new thread. Capital use of the rear display and buttons.

[Jeff Brue]

Nothing to do with Filmstream or Viper.

Fincher reportedly forced S2 to modify their D.Mag disk recorder's code to allow him to delete the takes he didn't like on set ...

There were a lot of modifications....in any case thats what bigger directors can get hardware companies to do... One thing to note though the way the S2 can delete takes is really because of the way it handles the data in a rather ingenious way, and never has to worry about fragmentation.

I'm working on digitizing a spot right now thats probably going to shoot 10 dmags today, I shudder to think what would have happened if they didn't have that delete take ability. Its really dangerous (in a good way) when you give directors the freedom to shoot, but to think that every owner/operator isn't going to have to become a data manager as well is slightly funny.

But really I see red data managers are going to have a lot of the same problems that I've experianced in our data workflow. Its nothing that can't be overcome, but its tough and is going to require quite a bit of education. Just wait till you get an editorial company demanding a correct layoff of digibeta from your pretty redcode files, with timecode and keycode burned in. Because they're running a version of media composer thats 3 years old.

Personally I'm praying at NAB that Red announces strategic partnerships with final cut and avid otherwise this is going to get even more interesting than it already is.


Jeff Brue
Technical Director
Digital Film Company