Recommended online seller for HVX-200?

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I tried searching but didn't come up with anything where I could even find out who owns an HVX-200 and what they paid, where they bought from, etc.

But I found a few places online that seem to be selling them too cheap. I know the retail is $6,000, and Amazon has it for $5,400, but other places are in the $3,000 range and that's not possible is it? I just don't think that can possibly be correct...

I'd love to know where anyone else bought theirs if they have one. We want to pick one up for music video shoots in the future. Basically, I was sold on this camera as a good short form, low budget camera to hold us over until the RED comes or to use on lower budget projects even once we have the REDs, but then this guy at Birns & Sawyer was telling us how we don't need that, it's not that great, Canon cameras are better, etc. Yet every single other person I've talked to loves the HVX-200 (for what it is) and our DP said it is a really nice camera for low budget stuff, too. Like better colors, etc. than an HDV camera. I love the P2 workflow as well, I mean that makes a lot of sense to me and another guy at Birns & Sawyer even told us it was a great camera, he loves it, they've had almost no problems with the P2 cards except for human error, etc.

Anyway, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I'm not buying anything from Birns & Sawyer again, everything is a rip off.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Sorry, a bit of a shill here...

Give Omega Broadcast (www.omegaaustin.com) a look. They don't sell online, but give them a call, talk to Alan Barnwell if he's available. I think they have some special deals on Panny P2 / DVCPROHD products right now too.

Otherwise, B&H and Amazon are probably your best if you just want to run to an online shop and pay. Amazon probably has free shipping, B&H is (usually) more knowledgeable if you need to discuss other things or need accessories to go with the camera.

Don't buy from anyone who isn't a proper authorized Panasonic dealer. If the price is too good to be true, then it's probably a scam or a grey market seller. I've seen HVX's advertised as new for less than $2K -- something is seriously wrong with those places. Stay away from them.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Yeah that's ridiculous, that has to be a scam. So I was looking at Amazon.com and they use a company called Wall Street Photo -- is that a reputable dealer then? I mean I would assume since it's on Amazon it probably is an authorized Panasonic dealer, but I just haven't really heard of them.

I was thinking B&H might be a good solution, they could probably help me put together a package that had what I needed, too, and their prices seem reasonable. They seem to have one for sale at $5,200, which is a bit better than Amazon and seems like quite a good deal.

So what's Omega Broadcast? I mean is that a reputable dealer?

Thanks for the information Jeff!

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I wish I had paid more attention to stuff I read about the HVX-200 back in the day, lol. Now I'm trying to find the relevant info. So I guess a 16 gig card, which is the biggest right now until November with the 32, holds about 16 minutes of the highest resolution footage? But quite a bit more if you film in 720p. I don't know what you'd want to film a music video in, really, but I would think if possible you'd want to film anything in the best setting possible.

So if you got two 16 gig cards you could hold 32 minutes of footage, both P2 cards can fit into the camera at the same time, I could get that field recorder with 60 gigs to transfer footage into and then dump that onto the laptop whenever I had time. I think I'd rather have that 60 gig drive than buy more P2 cards, because if I wasn't able to access a computer for a bit at least that would give me more recording time.

The workflow for the HVX-200 seems more complicated from a field perspective, but more professional, and since I wouldn't shoot anything without crew to help the DP, it's not a problem to have someone unloading the cards most of the time, especially because our guy who does that helps with setups (dolly track, etc.) and that is mostly done by the time you're shooting so his time would be free to manage the technical side. Also I'm freakin' out over here about the HDV tapes I have on my desk. I mean I just don't trust tapes, I guess. This music video we shot was so amazing I'm in awe, and the thought of a tape breaking or something like that when I'm capturing is frightening. I think P2 cards would be way more reliable and make me feel at ease. I'd already have everything backed up on an external if we had shot with those.

Same reason I'm excited for CF cards with the RED.

[Joel Kaye]

I mean I just don't trust tapes

People have lost P2 footage in the past - and not just a 1/4 second tape glitch.

My recommendation would be to try renting the Canon XH A1 with a Firestore. You can record to tape and the hard drive at the same time for instant redundancy. It's the safest bet imho. That camera is also a couple grand less. I was at a bar 2 days ago where they were shooting some MTV reality thing and they were shooting that Canon.

http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602584

The real thing to do is go rent or borrow both that and an HVX and shoot the type of stuff you're going to do.. then go into post, color correct and finish. See what really looks the best.

Most people don't really do side by side tests... so they just take the last guy's word that the 2 year old camera is better than the new stuff. Don't take anyone's word for it.

Frankly - any really good shooter will make any decent camera... even an HV20 look really good.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah that's ridiculous, that has to be a scam. So I was looking at Amazon.com and they use a company called Wall Street Photo -- is that a reputable dealer then? I mean I would assume since it's on Amazon it probably is an authorized Panasonic dealer, but I just haven't really heard of them.

I haven't looked who is selling the HVX through Amazon lately, but it varies and sometimes the dealer is reputable and sometimes they don't have that great of a reputation. Wall Street Photo is one of those that has a lot of mixed reviews and I would personally avoid them. Too bad J&R, B&H or Amazon themselves aren't selling it there right now. Which does occasionally happen.


I was thinking B&H might be a good solution, they could probably help me put together a package that had what I needed, too, and their prices seem reasonable. They seem to have one for sale at $5,200, which is a bit better than Amazon and seems like quite a good deal.


So what's Omega Broadcast? I mean is that a reputable dealer?

Omega Broadcast is very reputable. They are a small sales/consulting firm in Austin, TX that has served the broadcast industry for years. I've bought from them off and on, including buying my first HVX from them. They are well regarded and a sponsor of the DVINFO.NET forums. Give them a call... They're more familiar with the HVX and P2 workflow than the sales drones at B&H will be and they can definitely help assemble a package for you.

Another dealer I would recommend is EVS -- they're in Glendale, CA if that works better for you. Check them out at www.evsonline.com -- they're another one you will want to call and talk to. Actually, you won't want to just click and order online from any of these guys, even if they do support it. Usually you can get package deals or better pricing just by talking with them. Oh, and don't forget Abel CineTech -- www.abelcine.com -- You can't go wrong with these guys, either.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I wish I had paid more attention to stuff I read about the HVX-200 back in the day, lol. Now I'm trying to find the relevant info. So I guess a 16 gig card, which is the biggest right now until November with the 32, holds about 16 minutes of the highest resolution footage? But quite a bit more if you film in 720p. I don't know what you'd want to film a music video in, really, but I would think if possible you'd want to film anything in the best setting possible.

16GB cards work just fine. I think B&H has the best price on them, but call around. The max rate of DVCPROHD is 100Mbps -- at that rate, you get 1080i (all 1080i modes are over the 60i stream, 50i in PAL areas) or you get 720p60. 100Mbps is 12.5MB/s -- You'll get a bit over 20 minutes on a 16GB P2 card at the full 100Mbps data rate.

In most situations, you will be shooting 720pn (n is for 'native' frame rate record). What the pn modes do is record only the frames needed to the P2 card rather than duplicating unnecessary frames within a 60fps stream. Just so you know, 720p24n has a rate of 40Mbps or 5MB/s. So you will get over 45 minutes of video onto a single 16GB P2 card, when shooting 720p @ 24fps native record mode. You'll get about 100 minutes total record time with two 16GB P2 cards in the camera.


I could get that field recorder with 60 gigs to transfer footage into and then dump that onto the laptop whenever I had time. I think I'd rather have that 60 gig drive than buy more P2 cards, because if I wasn't able to access a computer for a bit at least that would give me more recording time.

I would recommend against getting the 60GB P2 Store drive. They were a good idea back when people were rotating 4GB cards. But the drives are slow and the internal data handling design is terribly inefficient. The drive will only hold 3 16GB P2 cards worth of information, even if the cards aren't filled the whole way before you dump.


and since I wouldn't shoot anything without crew to help the DP, it's not a problem to have someone unloading the cards most of the time,


Then you have no reason to buy the P2 store. Spend the money on another couple P2 cards. Or save it for the 32GB cards that will come later.

Are you sure you want to *buy* an HVX right now rather than saving up for RED? Why not just rent the gear you need when you need it? I was under the impression that a RED One was in your future. IMO, I would rent anything of this nature between now and NAB so I could wait to see what the RED "pocket camera" is all about or what other new things will be coming out soon.

FWIW, I think a good HV20 rig with 35mm adapter like the setup Bruce Allen has is a much better purchase than an HVX, if you're trying to stay within a $7500 budget or so. If you're looking to add a 35mm adapter and all the trimmings to an HVX package, then I would recommend finding a way to cough up the extra $10K and buy a RED One.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I like EVS, I went there to get my Indie Dolly, they're really helpful and nice, I thought.

I was hoping that through B&H if I bought a bunch of stuff, they'd be able to give me some sort of discount perhaps. I want two Arri lighting kits, a 2K light, a reference monitor, an HVX-200, a few P2 cards, a case for the reference monitor, a case for the camera, etc. So the total order would be pretty substantial.

joelnet -- we shot the last music video on the XH-A1. I think we got some awesome images, but the color sampling just isn't as good, you're talking about 4:2:0 versus 4:2:2 and HDV is just not as good of a format, IMO. Yeah, the tapes are cheap, but I'm not a huge fan of its look on most things, having shot quite a bit with it. That's the primary camera we've used on projects to this point. I think the HVX-200 would serve our needs much better. It's true, you could potentially delete everything from the card in one mistake, that's always a possibility, but I still think it's a great way to go overall and looks nice from what I've seen.

As far as my HDV tapes go, need I worry that there could be some sort of problem? I mean if the tape broke for some reason, it wouldn't destroy the entire one-hour tape, right? It could be fixed somewhere and mostly salvaged? I'm not worried about the tapes being destroyed or lost, of course, I have them right here with me in my condo, but I just get paranoid about the deck eating them or something, ala old VHS players. Right now, those two tapes are the most important material items in the world to me because the footage was so incredible and I think this video is going to be so awesome that losing footage would be devastating. So hopefully there isn't much risk of that.

EDIT: I was responding to everything before the last post, started writing, then submitted late. So re: last post...

I have two RED One's on order, and I'll get every accessory we need including lenses, etc. My business partner is going to order a second RED One also, he already has one on order, so we'll have access to four. I'm still not sure we'll be shooting every music video on the RED, though, especially if we're still doing pretty low budget work. I'd rather work on having my REDs rented out, and since we're going to deed all of the equipment to a separate corporation we'll form, a rental company, then our production company, Shutzi Productions, Inc., can't access the RED One's without paying the rental fees. Sure, we can give Shutzi a 20% discount, but if a client wants to shoot with the RED they don't get the RED just because "you guys already have it." We don't have it. Shutzi doesn't own any REDs. Our rental company does, and that entity will rent to anyone who can pay, with slight preference to our own production company. So I imagine going forward we'd use something like the HVX-200 quite a lot still, plus it'd make a great behind-the-scenes camera even in the best case scenario that we never have a low enough budget not to justify renting the RED from ourselves for each music video. I look at it as a win-win situation. If I'm only doing music videos with a $10,000+ budget, I can always use the RED, and won't need the HVX at that point, and if that's the case I won't care about a few thousand bucks spent on that camera, either. Especially because I think it'd make quite a nice behind-the-scenes video, not too awkward, use a few 32 gig cards and you can hold a lot of footage per card, etc.

I have noticed that everyone in this industry loves to rent. Our DP thinks we should rent lights instead of buying them. I only believe in renting when I can't actually afford to buy. When I look at the additional lighting I want and the total cost is about $6,000, I couldn't care less. Lights keep their value pretty well if you take care of them, so if I sold them for $4,000 a few years from now, who cares? I would have used them dozens of times. My business partner and I fortunately think the same way, we just don't do it the Hollywood way. I hate being inconvenienced by having to rent anything. I want to have the equipment myself, everything necessary to make a project happen and look good, even a large van for carrying everything to location, then we load it all up from our storage facility and go shoot it. I don't want to be held accountable for returning equipment at this or that time, or hiring someone to go do that. It ends up costing me more money because my time is worth more than that. If we're talking about a 1.2Kw HMI light for $8,000, of course I'll rent it. That makes a lot more sense. If we were going to film a music video in the desert during the day, let's say, I'd just budget for having to rent some pretty powerful lights and a generator truck, etc. But as much as possible I'd like to be able to use my own tools to create my projects.

Renting makes no sense to me, I'm happy as hell that it makes sense to everyone else, because that's why we're starting an equipment rental company. $400 a day for the HVX-200? Heck, $200 per day would be unacceptable. I'd still rather buy it. If I buy it for $5,200 or something, and I use it on music videos only through March, so I shoot at least 12 videos on it, then I sold it for $3,500 (and let's face it, I'd get more than that for it), then I paid $1,700 for 12 shoots, however many days, no hassles, being able to use it whenever I wanted without thinking about it. That's a no-brainer to me. If I didn't have the cash I guess I'd rent, but then someone else makes money off me. I'd rather own two of the means of production -- the actual production company and the rental company through which the production company rents, so my profits will come on two fronts for every shoot. Charge the client for my production services, charge the client for necessary rentals. Double the money.

One question, though. Would 720p really look good enough? I mean I would think 1080i would be better than 720p. Also, I thought the camera can shoot 1080p at 24fps, at least that's what I heard, that's what Wikipedia says, etc.

[Joel Kaye]

Right now, those two tapes are the most important material items in the world to me because the footage was so incredible and I think this video is going to be so awesome that losing footage would be devastating. So hopefully there isn't much risk of that.

First, good for you for doing the test. Stick with the HVX... 32 gig cards change the usability of that camera quite a bit. The best bet is to let the DP shoot what they like. Whatever it is - they'll get you the best stuff with a camera they are confident with and not fighting. Cameras don't really matter as much as we like to geek out about them. (even RED... OK, RED rules)

But as to tapes in general... I've never had a tape fail, but I've had 6 hard drives fail in the last year. You should have captured all that footage ALL OF IT to a hard drive and if it's that important copy it to another hard drive. Stick your tapes in a fireproof safe and don't touch 'em. You should shoot 'em, capture 'em and store 'em. They play only 2 times yet they are engineered to play thousands.

Where does your P2 stuff get archived that you feel so great about? There's nothing stopping you from copying the data captured from tapes to the same place.

I have the opposite feeling about tapes. Thank GOD I've got them in addition to hard drives. Tapes have been used in this business for years. They work.

I'm a lot more worried about my future RED footage than anything I've ever shot on tape. Tapes can be disassembled and repaired. Hard drives can too I guess - for a minor fortune. Hard drives fail ALL the time. I don't trust 'em.

Some of the upcoming optical storage coming out could be a promising solution.

Regarding renting - yeah I hate the hassle of renting too. Depends how much you shoot and how much money you've got laying around I guess. I'm putting a kit together to get me through smaller shoots. Bigger stuff I'll just get a grip truck.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

joel -- I honestly don't know the failure rate of tapes versus hard drives, but I too have had several hard drive failures. My MacBook hard drive failed in less than a year, still need to take that in this week to get it replaced. Grr...

I guess you're right, I guess tapes are pretty safe. I haven't ever used the HVX, sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but the DPs I've spoken with and worked with or wanted to work with have all seemed to want to use that, and honestly as the production company co-owner and director, I just want to give them what they want to use and what they think is going to be best for what I'm doing.

My knowledge of what goes into a story, how to communicate a story, my vision for what I want is very high. My knowledge of cameras and lighting is very limited. I couldn't DP a wedding video. So for me it makes sense to hire someone good and give them the tools they want, within reason. That's one reason I want a good lighting assortment. I have an Arri kit with a 1K and 3 600s, now I want one with two 150s and two 300s, and one with three 3Ks, then a separate 2K light, and I feel that is a good enough selection a DP can work with that for anything but trying to replicate daylight. But any interior on location that's going to be great, and outside at night, that'll be great, etc. So it gives me pretty good coverage. I tried to buy as much as I could this time around for the DP, given our limited space to haul stuff right now (the van will be present for the next shoot; the Hummer H2 for this one was the main transportation).

[Joel Kaye]

joel -- I honestly don't know the failure rate of tapes versus hard drives, but I too have had several hard drive failures. My MacBook hard drive failed in less than a year, still need to take that in this week to get it replaced. Grr...

I guess you're right, I guess tapes are pretty safe. I haven't ever used the HVX, sorry if there was a misunderstanding


I'd also be checking this new Sony camera out before I wrote a check. It's solid state and the media appears that it will be cheaper.

http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=171

It's not out yet though.

Personally, when I did honest HVX tests I could get a better image out of other cameras. I tested motion, the codecs, colors... I spent a month doing it. You have to tweak cameras to get the most out of them. I don't think most renters / testers have the time or experience to do that.

Right now, I just think RED is going to be the sh!te and why bother with anything else for narrative, music videos or commercials.

For lighting I'm a pretty big fan of Kinos... low power, low heat, instant softbox.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Interesting.

Well, I've talked to dozens of people who love shooting with the HVX so that's what I'm going to go with for now. I think it will be an upgrade over the camera we used, and I'm never going to deal with tapes again after this project. I'm sick of that workflow, it's ridiculous. We wasted about 4-5 hours tonight because of the numerous problems capturing the HDV footage with Final Cut, it was being a pain about everything, didn't like the timecode, wouldn't batch capture, now we have to capture individually so I'll waste 2 more hours of my time at least tomorrow.

No thanks to that. I want the footage in digital so I can just transfer it all to the computer in a few minutes and be done with it. I can't afford the workflow to deal with tapes, it takes too much time, I'd have to hire an assistant editor later just to do that and I have to trust them not to screw up what is captured and what isn't, and if they capture it all, then I have too much footage to sort and I'm back to square one where I'm looking at all of the footage, wasting my time figuring out what I didn't want there. At least if I have all of the footage thrown onto the hard drive I can avoid having to go through a headache capturing it, that cuts out some inconvenience.

I don't care for HDV as a format, personally. I've done the most reading about HDV of any format and it has a lot of issues I don't like. That being said, it is possible to get a nice image out of it, for sure, but it's not as easy as I think it should be. The footage we saw tonight, though, was awesome and I'm still really excited about this project we're editing. Definitely the best, most professional thing I've ever done. I think it's going to be a better music video than quite a lot of medium budget projects shown on MTV. Of course, that's also because I think the song is better than 98% of what's out there, and I don't care how great someone thinks their music video is, if the song is garbage your video is garbage too. You could spend $10 million on a video for Hollaback Girl... but it's still Hollaback Girl, the worst song imaginable. You can't polish a turd. I'm really happy we were able to do a video for a song this good because then all you have to worry about is making nice visuals to go along with an already great product. I was reading a book on making music videos, though, and I'd say it's about half and half with directors' opinions on whether you can make a good video for a bad song. I think the answer is no. But I think you can make a mediocre song much better with a great video, and a good song seem great with a really spectacular music video. Still I don't care what they do I can't tolerate something like My Humps, Hollaback Girl, London Bridge, etc., trash, all of it. They may as well have spent $250 on a miniDV music video in someone's back yard and called it good.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Ok so I placed a large order for more stuff with B&H, including the HVX200...

Now what do I need to read those P2 cards and transfer the footage to the laptop, which is a MacBook Pro? I mean there's no slot for that on a MacBook Pro, so I was just wondering what's my best bet here, for someone who has worked with this P2 workflow.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Now what do I need to read those P2 cards and transfer the footage to the laptop, which is a MacBook Pro? I mean there's no slot for that on a MacBook Pro, so I was just wondering what's my best bet here, for someone who has worked with this P2 workflow.

...The Duel Systems CardBus PCMCIA to ExpressCard adapter (http://www.duel-systemsadapters.com/?productid=DP-0001). You can order from them direct ($119) or you might be able to find one elsewhere.

I actually have one here that is unopened that I'm looking to sell. I bought it to go with an HVX200, but didn't end up opening it. I sold the camera recently, but the buyer didn't need the adapter, so it's on my shelf doing nothing. PM me if you're interested or want more info.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Ok, sweet, thanks! Yeah that looks like exactly what I'd need. You rock Jeff. I'll send you a PM.