Red shoot today

[Rick Darge]

Here is a grab. I'm going to delete it by the time I pass out tonight, so check it out. 10 Hour shoot - Images were stellar. Camera is still very buggy though. We had A LOT of lockup/reboot issues all day. If the images weren't so pretty, I probably would be more upset than I am now.

[Brook Willard]

Why delete it?

Nice shot. A little soft, but nice nonetheless. Is that the 300mm?

[Rick Darge]

Thats the zoom @ 50mm, f/4 ASA 320 ~ light level correction in PS

[Unwounded]

Camera is still very buggy though. We had A LOT of lockup/reboot issues all day. If the images weren't so pretty, I probably would be more upset than I am now.

Brook, Evin, Gibby, Offhollywood, (other early res holders) have you had the same issues?

[Evin Grant]

It happens, it never really slowed us down though.

[Rick Darge]

90% of the time when we hit STOP on the record button, the camera would lock up and would have to rebooted once or twice. It slowed us down pretty bad.

[Unwounded]

Did you lose footage? Did you have the latest firmware update? How long was the reboot?

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks for your useful report, Richard. Quite honest, above all. It's nice to have here the input from the customer side, as well.

[Shawn Nelson]

You should work out the issues with Red (they will be very helpful) and leave this off the boards. There's enough FUD already.

[Emanuel A.]

What's your input on subject from your own RED ONE shooting experience, Shawn?

About similar issues, I mean.

[Rick Darge]

I don't think there is a need to leave it off the boards. The footage that we did have was f**ing awesome! The clients loved the image and I was overly-impressed by what I saw. There were downsides and I think people should know that. A little balance and honesty never hurt. I think it may have been a camera issue though, because the owner said that this is the first time we were getting major bugs, go figure, the day of an actual paying gig. We tried to contact Red but being that its Sunday, nobody was around. Like I said, the stuff that survived was amazing. A handful of our clips either suffered from not being recognized in RedAlert!, crashing RedAlert!, or not being there all together. When all the bugs are worked out it will be an amazing beast, I have full faith in Red fixing these software issues.

[Shawn Nelson]

That any problems should be worked out with Red privately. Red #27 continues to shoot for me, we used it this whole weekend.

[Emanuel A.]

I don't think there is a need to leave it off the boards. The footage that we did have was f**ing awesome! The clients loved the image and I was overly-impressed by what I saw. There were downsides and I think people should know that. A little balance and honesty never hurt.Fully agreed. Our first tool in order to sell our ideas wherever we go.

[Rick Darge]

Wrinkles in 4k - I love the manipulation. I knew when we were shooting this that it would be a problem.. too much detail but i love it

[Unwounded]

euwww......I hope this isn't for a palmolive commercial :)

[Joel Kaye]

Wrinkles in 4k - I love the manipulation. I knew when we were shooting this that it would be a problem.. too much detail but i love it

Dude - if this is for "Hand Job Honeys Vol#43" it might not be your best seller.

[Manfred Lopez]

... any problems should be worked out with Red privately.

I believe that the right thing to do is to fully expose any issues with the rest of us. It is not FUD... It is reality. And such information will help and maybe even save a lot of trouble for the next project considering renting the Red camera in the next week or so where they need an ultra dependable camera for a day shoot on a Sunday.

I mean if people share all the good and bad with all other cameras, why should Red be any different. Jim has been very open so far about everything. Why can't we too?

[Rick Darge]

Did you lose footage? Oh yes
Did you have the latest firmware update? Yes,
How long was the reboot? 5 sec. to power down. - 10 sec. off - 90 sec. power up ~ when the LCD didn't come on every other time, we would reboot. - When the camera was working without bugs, it was awesome and I loved it. When it was acting like a bad child, I would scold it but I couldn't stop loving it. Things just need working out and I'm sure Red mad men are working all the time addressing these things and trying to make them better, its just, based on experiences today, I probably wouldn't rent Red again until things were ironed out and a little more reliable. Losing footage is a real bitch fest.

[Corey Culp]

Dude - if this is for "Hand Job Honeys Vol#43" it might not be your best seller.

LOL! Awesome!

[Michael Brennan]

You should work out the issues with Red (they will be very helpful) and leave this off the boards. There's enough FUD already.


I whole heartily disagree.
Full praise and trust to those that have communicated the good and the bad of their initial testing, but I'm disapointed that some early adopters have not communicated serious issues to the forum first hand, I hope it is not a sign of things to come.

Even if the likely hood is that the problem is an operator error it should be posted so that similar operator errors by other users can be avoided.



Mike Brennan

[Emanuel & Co]

Fully agreed. Our first tool in order to sell our ideas wherever we go.Obrigado Boss. It's also a matter of credibility.

Cris

PS New post

[Manfred Lopez]

I whole heartily disagree.
Full praise and trust to those that have communicated the good and the bad of their initial testing, but I'm disapointed that some early adopters have not communicated serious issues to the forum first hand, I hope it is not a sign of things to come.

Mike Brennan


Yes... and I also think that it is better for the Red company for any problems to be exposed here before they get exposed in a large circulating print magazine when the first formal reviews start hitting the stands.

[Emanuel & Co]

You probably can't know how many people Emanuel has brought to the Red's side. Investors actually. When Emanuel is saying that's the way, there's money there. With no other reason.

A fine example of credibility. A lesson to myself.

Cris


Obrigado Boss. It's also a matter of credibility.

Cris



PS Sorry the biased part. It's only the truth. A sort of testimony.

Just my opinion.

[Poi Boy]

Oh yes Yes, 5 sec. to power down. - 10 sec. off - 90 sec. power up ~ when the LCD didn't come on every other time, we would reboot. - When the camera was working without bugs, it was awesome and I loved it. When it was acting like a bad child, I would scold it but I couldn't stop loving it. Things just need working out and I'm sure Red mad men are working all the time addressing these things and trying to make them better, its just, based on experiences today, I probably wouldn't rent Red again until things were ironed out and a little more reliable. Losing footage is a real bitch fest.

thanks for sharing this information with us rgd; it is stupid to not reveal this stuff.
Aloha
-A

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I agree that problems SHOULD be reported on these boards.
Other reservation holders should know about it, and people can discuss what the problem could be. Everybody here wants first impressions, good AND bad, and it would be dishonest to be silent about the bad.

And, as other people already mentioned: if there is a problem with the camera, Jim himself is one of the first to report it on these boards. So let's keep the honesty on both sides, this isn't slamming the camera or FUD.
The original poster said that he LOVED the camera, but it was buggy. Pretty honest review to me.

ps: nice hand shots :ohmy:

[Michel Hafner]

And, as other people already mentioned: if there is a problem with the camera, Jim himself is one of the first to report it on these boards.
See Infacy thread. Now we know what it was about:
We have some issues. We have problems with our initial release and are scrambling to make emergency firmware upgrades to stabilize our platform.

[Eddie]

You should work out the issues with Red (they will be very helpful) and leave this off the boards. There's enough FUD already.

guess that earned you the fanboy hat of the week:red_bandana:

[Roberto B]

ehehehehehe..

[Jimmy Shen]

when the LCD didn't come on every other time, we would reboot.

We never had any lock-up problems. LCD occasionally doesn't come on, or displaying random vertial lines, or on but without back light, what I did was power off, unplug the battery then plug it back in and power on.

[Jaime Vallés]

Thanks for the stills, RGD. Those hand shots look great! When you have a spare moment, would you be able to post hi-res versions (2K TIFF or JPEG) with no post-adjustments of levels, so we can play around with them in Photoshop?

And thanks for letting us know about the issues you've had. It's good to know the state of things at the moment.

[David Battistella]

Recapping...

So far in this thread I have read that some USERS have:

Had the camera lock-up mid take.
Lost footage.
Reported that LCD does not power on.
Had crashing with RED alert.
and the suggestion that posting this information in a public forum is unreasonable.

While I can realize the logic behind this thinking, I think the best thing for all concerned parties is to be vocal.

My first sense is that it might have been an issue with one camera, but a few more people have reported problems that they had been keeping quite.

WE know that you are the early adopters and I appreciate you bein gon the leading edge. We know that you ahve to go through the growing pains that people who receive their camera's later will not. Are you guys under NDA or something?

To me the forum is not doing it job if people are not reporting all sides of the equation. Many people, including myself, believe in this project and what RED is trying to accomplish, but this is the first "problem" thread I have seen against TONS of really positive response and it is good information to have.

Thanks for posting.

David

[Steve Gibby]

Outside of the LCD cable problems, which RED is well aware of and solving, #8 has had no problems whatsoever. That's after two and a half weeks of extensive use: 3D testing, mobile 2D shooting, etc. #8 has been rock-solid dependable.

I reported the LCD cable problems to RED and they were already working on solving that. There have been guys who had reboot problems, but I'd guess that was more in the category of them getting to know the camera. Computers tend to become unhappy with instant reboots, and if you think about it, RED On is in sense a computer with a lens on the front.

There are a lot of owners/renters of RED One who are used to the instant start up and record functions of film and video cameras - thus the impulse to quickly push the power on button and expect immediate boot-up readiness from RED One. Give RED One the time it needs to boot. After fully powering down, I've usually given #8 at least 30 to 60 seconds before I hit the power switch and re-boot the camera - and I've had no re-boot problems whatsoever.

If I had a problem with #8, I'd go to RED via phone, email, and/or PM first to report it, and get their advice. If it was operator error, they'd let me know. If it was a commonly reported occurrence they would also let me know and give me an estimate on the firmware update that would solve it. Simple as that.

I think sometimes guys on this board like to think they're a hero by "getting the scoop" or "reporting the supposed bug first" on the open forum. They think that everyone is going to look to them with a "thanks for letting us know" pat on the back, and for sure, some here do. Not me. I would handle problems with #8 exactly like I described in the paragraph above, and I look at guys who rush to "report the scoop" as ignoring the most direct path to get their problem solved and find out if it has been reported - going directly to RED with the issue. A bunch of guys on the open forum who don't own a RED One camera and haven't used one aren't going to be able to give you the input you need to solve your problem - RED Team is going to be able to answer you questions and solve you problem. RED wants to know, and needs to know about operator error and equipment malfunctions – so why not take the fastest route to gettiing your issue solved by notifying RED directly about your issue?

I've found the customer service at RED to be exceptional. These guys are busting their asses to take care of their customers. Why not take camera issues directly to them? I guarantee you they will respond immediately and work hard to solve the problem.

Again, there have been no problems whatsoever with #8, except the faulty LCD cable, and RED is actively solving that issue.

[Michael Schrengohst]

That makes sense. Richard did try to contact RED but
no one is at the office on Sunday.

[Shawn Nelson]

Outside of the LCD cable problems, which RED is well aware of and solving, #8 has had no problems whatsoever. That's after two and a half weeks of extensive use: 3D testing, mobile 2D shooting, etc. #8 has been rock-solid dependable.

I reported the LCD cable problems to RED and they were already working on solving that. There have been guys who had reboot problems, but I'd guess that was more in the category of them getting to know the camera. Computers tend to become unhappy with instant reboots, and if you think about it, RED On is in sense a computer with a lens on the front.

There are a lot of owners/renters of RED One who are used to the instant start up and record functions of film and video cameras - thus the impulse to quickly push the power on button and expect immediate boot-up readiness from RED One. Give RED One the time it needs to boot. After fully powering down, I've usually given #8 at least 30 to 60 seconds before I hit the power switch and re-boot the camera - and I've had no re-boot problems whatsoever.

If I had a problem with #8, I'd go to RED via phone, email, and/or PM first to report it, and get their advice. If it was operator error, they'd let me know. If it was a commonly reported occurrence they would also let me know and give me an estimate on the firmware update that would solve it. Simple as that.

I think sometimes guys on this board like to think they're a hero by "getting the scoop" or "reporting the supposed bug first" on the open forum. They think that everyone is going to look to them with a "thanks for letting us know" pat on the back, and for sure, some here do. Not me. I would handle problems with #8 exactly like I described in the paragraph above, and I look at guys who rush to "report the scoop" as ignoring the most direct path to get their problem solved and find out if it has been reported - going directly to RED with the issue. A bunch of guys on the open forum who don't own a RED One camera and haven't used one aren't going to be able to give you the input you need to solve your problem - RED Team is going to be able to answer you questions and solve you problem. RED wants to know, and needs to know about operator error and equipment malfunctions – so why not take the fastest route to gettiing your issue solved by notifying RED directly about your issue?

I've found the customer service at RED to be exceptional. These guys are busting their asses to take care of their customers. Why not take camera issues directly to them? I guarantee you they will respond immediately and work hard to solve the problem.

Again, there have been no problems whatsoever with #8, except the faulty LCD cable, and RED is actively solving that issue.

Ditto. That's what I was getting at. Thank you for phrasing it much better.

[Ben Feuer]

Gibby, I'm really glad you haven't had any problems. That's great to hear. But I do think we have a right to know what the risks are of our investment. After all, I could as easily end up having RGD's experience as I could end up having yours. When I see both of your opinions - in a public forum - I understand that the story is in flux. That's fine. I'm not jumping to conclusions.

That said -

This is not some minor issue. Losing footage is the biggest issue a camera can have. Losing footage repeatedly ... without knowing it was gone until the end of the day ... that's a complete nightmare.
It's possible that RGD's case was isolated, but based on Jim's post I would say that's not the case. If a buggy RED that drops footage means two things -

1. Your big, fancy Hollywood clientele are going to look at the images, rent the camera, lose a quarter of their footage for the day and say, well I'm never going to touch RED again, it's too buggy.

2. Can't use RED as a primary camera on your own shoots if there's any sort of money involved - I'd rather get it on a DVX and have it be "in the can" (+ or - a few dropped frames) than lose footage en masse.

RED knows these issues have to be addressed, which is wonderful, but let's take off the blinders for a second here. This issue means that RED is being released essentially still as a beta. How long will it take to be complete? You don't know. Nobody does. Nobody knows for sure if it will ever be complete.

Based on Jim's track record, most of us will be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But at this point, my options in October will be paying a huge sum of money for something that may not ever be viable, or giving up my place in line - and I don't like either of those choices.

[Noah Kadner]

I would much rather hear the warts and all stories rather than the ominous- handle it privately with Red. Handle it out in the open, please. That makes Red look 100% honest and responsive. And it only increases my faith in this camera not the opposite. Transparency is the approach Jim has advocated from the start on this board.

We all know this camera is bleeding edge and there are going to be some bumpy spots. We are all here for the Six Flags roller coaster ride, not the smooth sail in the dinghy. Perhaps there is a concern of the "this is a scam" bile that some naysayers once held. We're well beyond that now with shipping cameras and images posting round the clock. Anyone who doesn't believe this camera is real and revolutionary is in denial.

That said, it's time to get to work. And yes, getting to work means saying oh and ah over the pretty pictures. It also means sharing trouble spots so we can all learn and avoid them during our own Red shoots and get to say oh and ah for ourselves.

Noah

[David Battistella]

Outside of the LCD cable problems, which RED is well aware of and solving, #8 has had no problems whatsoever. That's after two and a half weeks of extensive use: 3D testing, mobile 2D shooting, etc. #8 has been rock-solid dependable.

I reported the LCD cable problems to RED and they were already working on solving that. There have been guys who had reboot problems, but I'd guess that was more in the category of them getting to know the camera. Computers tend to become unhappy with instant reboots, and if you think about it, RED On is in sense a computer with a lens on the front.

There are a lot of owners/renters of RED One who are used to the instant start up and record functions of film and video cameras - thus the impulse to quickly push the power on button and expect immediate boot-up readiness from RED One. Give RED One the time it needs to boot. After fully powering down, I've usually given #8 at least 30 to 60 seconds before I hit the power switch and re-boot the camera - and I've had no re-boot problems whatsoever.

If I had a problem with #8, I'd go to RED via phone, email, and/or PM first to report it, and get their advice. If it was operator error, they'd let me know. If it was a commonly reported occurrence they would also let me know and give me an estimate on the firmware update that would solve it. Simple as that.

I think sometimes guys on this board like to think they're a hero by "getting the scoop" or "reporting the supposed bug first" on the open forum. They think that everyone is going to look to them with a "thanks for letting us know" pat on the back, and for sure, some here do. Not me. I would handle problems with #8 exactly like I described in the paragraph above, and I look at guys who rush to "report the scoop" as ignoring the most direct path to get their problem solved and find out if it has been reported - going directly to RED with the issue. A bunch of guys on the open forum who don't own a RED One camera and haven't used one aren't going to be able to give you the input you need to solve your problem - RED Team is going to be able to answer you questions and solve you problem. RED wants to know, and needs to know about operator error and equipment malfunctions – so why not take the fastest route to gettiing your issue solved by notifying RED directly about your issue?

I've found the customer service at RED to be exceptional. These guys are busting their asses to take care of their customers. Why not take camera issues directly to them? I guarantee you they will respond immediately and work hard to solve the problem.

Again, there have been no problems whatsoever with #8, except the faulty LCD cable, and RED is actively solving that issue.

Gibby,

Thanks for your eloquent post. I can see this point of view and it is good to know that you have no problems to report.

I think that RGD is just giving us his experience with the camera. I did not get the sense from his post that he was activly trying to get the scoop or anything, I mean the title of the thread is "RED SHOOT DAY" not, "REDis crappy and I want my money back.

He reported lock up of the camera during takes and I think that is fair. The fact that you report zero problems is also fair.

I agree that the first steps should be to contact RED and ask them to solve the problem. I think that is what he tried to do and he just mentioned what happened to him and his experience in his post. What is wrong with that?


David

[Steve Gibby]

Everyone who received cameras 6-50 was given Jim Jannard's personal cell number with an invitation to call him anytime we had concerns. Jarred Land has also sent out an email to everyone who received a camera so far, inviting them to call his cell or landline phone if they couldn't reach Jim with their concerns.

On 9/11/07 Brent Carter, Head of the RED Swat Team sent out this email to everyone who received cameras:

"First of all, I want to thank you for not only your long-term support of RED but also your patience with RED. Moving forward, the best way for you to get your questions and concerns addressed quickly is to allow your requests to come through the customer support department: Zak, Kevin, and Sean. All three have solid customer service, sales, and photography/film experience. They are available 24/7 to help you. And if they can’t help you, then know who can and they will get resolution for you.

And here are the two ways to get a hold of them:

Phone: <number deleted> follow the quick prompts to get to the right department (sales, service, tech support). Reps are onsite Mon-Fri 8am to 5pm PT. After hours, leave a voicemail for tech support and they will be paged.

Online: Create a ‘Tech Support Ticket’ on RED.com. Go to Contact Us in the footer of the website and then select the Technical Support webform. A rep will be paged with that ticket copy.



That all being said, if you run into any issues where you do not get a response in a timely fashion or any other concerns from the service you are receiving from RED, do not hesitate to contact me. My direct line is <number deleted> and my cell is <number deleted>. I am here to make sure you are supported 24/7."

If whoever rented that camera out to the original poster in this thread would have supplied the renter with the RED Team support info and the phone numbers to use if he had any problems, I'm guessing he would have received immediate attention by RED Team even though it was Sunday, and if it was operator error they would have been able to coach him through it.

My point is, as owners/renters of RED One we need to have the most direct tech support info available with us as we go onto location to shoot. If someone rents out their RED One, they should routinely give the renter access to the camera manual and the RED tech support contact info. If there is a problem in the field, then the fastest route to defining the problem and getting it solved is to go directly to RED Team - 24/7/365.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Gibby,

I am sure people will appreciate those phone no's above.

Stephen

[ZzzZZz...]

Disclaimer "All negative things, such as hardware issues, bricked cameras and lost footage are to be omitted from any user experience before posting on reduser.net. "

worth a read
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2995

[LighthouseMEdia]

People need to be made FULLY aware of ANY and ALL problems encountered during shooting with these early problems.

[metropilot]

He should edit this post IMHO.

BTW, first post... Let´s see if it´s editable.

Greeting from Munich.

Edit: "Yup"


Hi Gibby,

I am sure people will appreciate those phone no's above.

Stephen

[Michael Schrengohst]

I don't think there is a need to leave it off the boards. The footage that we did have was f**ing awesome! The clients loved the image and I was overly-impressed by what I saw. There were downsides and I think people should know that. A little balance and honesty never hurt. I think it may have been a camera issue though, because the owner said that this is the first time we were getting major bugs, go figure, the day of an actual paying gig. We tried to contact Red but being that its Sunday, nobody was around. Like I said, the stuff that survived was amazing. A handful of our clips either suffered from not being recognized in RedAlert!, crashing RedAlert!, or not being there all together. When all the bugs are worked out it will be an amazing beast, I have full faith in Red fixing these software issues.

If you did not re-format the cards, try this:

http://www.cardrecovery.com/

[Steve Gibby]

Disclaimer "All negative things, such as hardware issues, bricked cameras and lost footage are to be omitted from any user experience before posting on reduser.net. "

worth a read
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2995

So what are you saying with this post?

[doondoon]

That any problems should be worked out with Red privately. Red #27 continues to shoot for me, we used it this whole weekend.


Why should problems be kept private? I agree that everyone should be made aware of potential known bugs that have been encountered by people using the camera in the field. This is not to trash the camera... or to be negative for the sake of being negative. It's to enlighten others so the problem can be fixed.

We all know the camera is in it's "infancy"... so infants lose their balance sometimes. It's to be expected and embraced. Not hidden.

[Jannard]

We aren't hiding anything. The build that was sent out end of last week had a few bugs we had never seen before. We have been working over the weekend to address them.

I have posted before that everytime we add features, something pops up. This is one of those times. What we don't need is panic monsters when we have been very upfront on these types of issues. It is one reason we delayed the next 50 cameras.

Jim

[ZzzZZz...]

I am saying that if you would have dealt with these issues "privately" then L.A.R.T might not be as unbiased as proclaimed in the quoted thread. Eugene questioned the independence of early reservation holders and moderators as testers and was ranted into apologising, however in light of your statements he might not have been that far off.

[liquidigital]

Wrinkles in 4k - I love the manipulation. I knew when we were shooting this that it would be a problem.. too much detail but i love it

Based on your grab, I can't wait see what this is for! Looks cool.

[Steve Gibby]

The camera manual PDF given to those who received cameras, Chapter 8 Managing Digital Media, has specific paragraphs on "Media Formatting" and "Re-formatting a previously used Compact Flash".

The same chapter also has a paragraph entitled "Removing Media". There is a button the back of the camera named "UNDO". To unmount the digital media, you have to press and hold the UNDO key and then press the "EXIT" key until the GUI reports "Safe to Remove" or status display reports "NoN" in the media status.

Then there's this warning that follows:

"Un-mounting ensures that power is removed from the digital media and open files are closed. Physical removal of CF media or disconnecting a RED-Drive without first un-mounting it may not cause any damage, but does increase the risk of file corruption if data is being recorded"

Brad Hagen, owner of RED 15 & 16, even tested unplugging one of his REDs during recording to see how much data was lost, and only lost a few seconds of data. Here’s his post on that:

“With the Red camera, a concern was what would happen if the Red lost power or the camera "crashed" during a recording to CF (compact flash) or a drive for that matter. As soon as we got our cameras on the test bench my concern turned to curiosity and I simulated a power failure by pulling the plug, the power plug, during a recording. The result? The data was fine except for the last 3 to 7 seconds. The length of bad bits or lost data varied depending on the shooting length, the longer the file the larger the bad bits. The most we ever had were 7 seconds and that was on a 3 minute recording. This is GREAT news. The RED team obviously thought about real world use and this possibility so the files written are sectioned so data loss is minimal. Think of it as similar to changing lenses on an old Bolex - the film in the gate is ruined but the rest of the reel is fine.

If anyone else had tried similar tests with their Red cameras I would be interested in their experience; please share.”

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4660

What I’m saying is:

1) Owners and renters need to read the camera manual and make sure they are operating the camera correctly

2) If there is a problem in the field, and you’re sure you’ve been operating the camera as per the manual instructions, the fastest way to get your problem defined and solved is to contact RED

3) If RED is aware of the problem and is actively solving it, then that’s what we as owners/renters of the camera are after.

4) If it is an individual problem, or an operator error problem, then its up to us as owners/renters to get up to speed with the camera

5) If it is an acknowledged firmware or hardware glitch then RED has been very open about talking about those

[Steve Gibby]

I am saying that if you would have dealt with these issues "privately" then L.A.R.T might not be as unbiased as proclaimed in the quoted thread. Eugene questioned the independence of early reservation holders and moderators as testers and was ranted into apologising, however in light of your statements he might not have been that far off.

LART will be unbiased, and each of the high-level professionals on the LART team are committed to that. I say you better re-think your choice of publicly questioning the objectivity of the members of LART. That is an attack on each of our professional reputations that won't be taken lightly. I'd suggest you just drop this now.

[ZzzZZz...]

If the leader of L.A.R.T "publicly" tries to dissuade a reduser from reporting a bricked camera, I believe that leader is best advised to question his own objectivity.

btw... are you practising oneliners for an upcoming thriller now Gibby? be sure it doesn´t turn into a comedy...

(why was my post deleted... if an admin has a problem with the content, please pm me)

[Matt Setnes]

Bottom line is.. regardless of what camera you are using, as long as you are the owner, you have the full right to post your problems. This should of been expected when they released the cameras. I agree to contact red first on the situation, but let us Red users know as well so we are at least aware of these problems if they were to occur again.

This forum is a field test discussion, are errors not subjected to field testing?

[Mark Mannschreck]

DUDES. Take it down a notch! There's gotta be a happy medium here. Nobody is under any kind of NDA or anything. There are probably a FEW people that didn't read the PDF manual and had problems because of that. There are definitely some issues that are common among the first 50. Red #41 is still in surgery somewhere at Red but I've got "London" so I'm not completely down and out. There IS a balance between HASTILY REPORTING any issue and keeping it a COMPLETE SECRET because someone's afraid to post it... Lets find that balance.

[Chris Pickle]

wow, vanished from the face of the earth - like they never existed. Only as a quoted echo.

[sander kamp]

Let's not panic over a couple of bugs and remember the original poster's experience was a general positive one.

However, I think it is interesting to hear about what can go wrong when you're shooting a RED and how RED is adressing the problems.

[albert rudnicki]

Let's not panic over a couple of bugs and remember the original poster's experience was a general positive one.

However, I think it is interesting to hear about what can go wrong when you're shooting a RED and how RED is adressing the problems.

Yes, but at that moment it may do a lot more worse then good

[Jason Francois]

I think if anything Richard's post is a good thing. He was having problems...some may be operator error, some might not....and he's still talking about how amazing it is. He lost footage, for whatever reason and he still loves the camera.

If he were bashing the camera and saying rude and nasty things, knowing that this is bleeding-edge technology and early in the race, then maybe people should get up in arms, but I don't see anything, but a bit of observation. Observation that seems more geared towards getting things worked out rather than creating static.

I think most of the people around here aren't going to be turned off or become RED haters, because bugs are reported. It's been said so often to expect issues to crop up.

Say it again, with me. Richard had issues and still loves the camera.

EDIT:Sorry, Sander is saying the same basic thing.

[David Battistella]

What we don't need is panic monsters when we have been very upfront on these types of issues.

Jim

I hope I am not one of the people this was directed at...

I was not suggesting that RED has been anything but transparent. I think this thread is more of a debate of whether it is right or wrong for people to post their specific problems.

In reading through this thread I can see that people's passion for the camera takes over and that is good because it demonstrates to all of us how much the first users see your vision first hand and back it.

I did not realize that the camera had been rented, this explains some things (like maybe this was not someone who had a good once over with the camera before using it). With any new system there are specifics that need to be ironed out.

I appreciate the dilemma of releasing a brand new product, with much hype and anticipation, wanting all of that to go smoothly and having to deal with public user posted information versus official RED information, this stuff can escalates very quickly.

I hope most of us understand that the original poster was blown away with the camera performance with the exception of their particular "bumps".

I'm sure what ever went wrong will be solved quickly, but I can also understand that people would "freak out for nothing" because they have been getting their info as it becomes available.

Gibby, for example has been great for keeping a rolling record of everything discussed here so it's good to have him back posting to bring perspective.

David

[Rick Darge]

Gibby, I did all of those things. Try putting yourself in my shoes yesterday, with a large budget and producers on a deadline. You act like I'm fishing the negative and expecting high fives from people on the board. That pisses me off that you would assume that. The more I think about it, the more upset I am about the stuff we lost yesterday because of these errors.. If I was shooting my own thing, and we lost footage, I would have said the hell with it, ok. But I lost half of a job and that not only makes me look incompetent but it makes my director look like even more of an idiot. We're talking about dollars and cents here, not being PANIC MONSTERS. If Red is going to succeed, we need to OPEN about everything, otherwise whats the point of this community.

[Finner]

Hi Richard

I really feel for you and all I can say is I hope the 3 day commercial I'm on that starts shooting Friday goes well. I also sure hope Gibby's camera continues to work without a hitch. Anyone who has read my posts knows I do not pull any punches and if the camera gives me half the amount of grief in 3 days that it gave you in one I will be pissed to say the least. I think you have a very justifiable reason to be unhappy. Gibby is a stand up guy and I am thankful he is on the shoot with his camera as he will be a great asset. Also it is fortunate that Gibby's camera has been working flawlessly since he got it. This commercial is going to be busy and we do not have the time for non stop camera problems. It sounds like the camera you got may have been a bit of a dud. I for one appreciate a heads up on things to watch out for and would appreciate you posting any things you found that helped the camera when you ran into problems.

[Greg M]

I understand your pain rgd...I think the issue here is that the owner of the camera should not be renting it out. He knew this was a beta version, this is an opportunity to work out workflow issues and get familiar with the camera. Personally I wont be renting mine for awhile, at least until I am 100% confident that there wont be any issues for the poor guy using it.

We are going to take advantage of our advance time with the camera to create a post workflow and master the camera...it wont be going out on rentals anytime soon.

Sorry you had issues.

[Mark Thorpe]

I think this just goes to prove one thing. RED is a new beast, a beast that deserves the right of a new approach. Sure there's gonna be teething problems. I believe RED to be on the case. Personally I wouldn't air my issues with the cam in public. Why? We are being watched by the World guys. Look at the reactionary posts in this forum to negative editorials on the whole RED development ride. Plus it's not gonna resolve the issues, the RED team on the other hand?

This whole scenario leans heavily on the need for comprehensive training options for buyers of this camera. Bootcamps, even on an International scale. It's the best way for the company to protect the $$$$'s thus far invested in bringing this product to market. Sure there are some very talented people here, people who have posted amazing footage / stills but for the most part I'll stick my neck out and say that many of us here are gonna be massively overwhelmed by this camera, when we finally get our mitts on it.

Providing training, obviously with a course fee (but not too bloated eh Jim) would at least allow everyone to start off on the right foot.

Just my opinion......

Cheers,
Mark.

[Rick Darge]

I agree Mark. People are watching. Like I said before, I love this camera, I love it so much that I put money down for it like everyone else. I believe in what they are doing, it's just, I thought people here would benefit from hearing about some real-world issues. These problems were def camera related but it would never hurt to have some bootcamps in the future. This will be a rough ride for the dinosaurs out there to learn who have never used data-centric camera systems. Also, as a user, I was never told about keeping problems private, this was more of a user report, not a negative rant.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think RGD's feedback is extremely valuable if only to let people know that "yes there are at this moment some instabilities. If you need a rock solid 0 failure solution--find something else until the initial bugs are worked out. Otherwise if you can suffer a little grief in order to get some great images--budget the lost time into your schedule now so that you don't get a suprise later."

There's that old saying "the bleeding edge is pretty sharp-watch your fingers."

[liquidigital]

I agree Mark. People are watching. Like I said before, I love this camera, I love it so much that I put money down for it like everyone else. I believe in what they are doing, it's just, I thought people here would benefit from hearing about some real-world issues. These problems were def camera related but it would never hurt to have some bootcamps in the future. This will be a rough ride for the dinosaurs out there to learn who have never used data-centric camera systems. Also, as a user, I was never told about keeping problems private, this was more of a user report, not a negative rant.

RGD, you don't owe anybody an explanation/apology or anything. Who bought your camera? You. When someone buys my camera for me, then they can tell me not to post or how to handle a problem. Jesus, this forum is nothing like DVXUser. Too intense. I respect everyone here, but relax. Give this guy a break. I for one, would like to see more of his footage.

[Jason Francois]

So, now that camera's are being released we're supposed to change the way we talk about and deal with this camera? Doesn't make any sense to me.

A big part of what RED has become has to do with this community, if I'm not mistaken. I would hate to think that all the many, many months I've invested in being here and spending time and giving feedback is no longer valid because camera's are in the field.

It WOULD be very odd to post a problem with Panaivsion, Arri, etc. on a forum, because those camera's didn't have a large part of their develepment shared online for the world to be involved in. (I'm not sure about Dalsa and Phantom)

Just my spin on people's spin.

J.





The bottom line is, if you had a problem with your Panavision, Arri, Aaton, et al camera (let alone a Dalsa or a Phantom), would you seek solutions by posting online? Or would you contact the company techs or engineers (or even their approved reps or techs) DIRECTLY before posting in a public forum online?

To anyone who has anything at stake in a project in which a specific piece of equipment plays a key role, contacting the manufacturer "DIRECTLY" at the first sign of "extraordinary" adversity is still (and will always be) the best course of action.

Think about it, folks. Not everyone who reads and posts to these forums stay at the Holiday Inn Express, you know? It's always best to get the answers you need straight from the horse's mouth. If you have problems with RED, call RED. They will help you. Nobody else will be in a better position to help you. Nobody.

It only makes sense. Don't it?

My 2¢ worth...

[Rick Darge]

would you seek solutions by posting online? Or would you contact the company techs or engineers (or even their approved reps or techs) DIRECTLY before posting in a public forum online?

I wasn't seeking a solution through this thread, just looking to share my experiences with you guys. Peace.

[Shawn Nelson]

There's way too much miscommunication going on in this thread.

Us early adopters are a different sort of customer. Not better, just different. It's bittersweet: we get cameras way before most others but we know that we are receiving beta cameras. When I was down at Red Day Jim made it known we were getting Not-Ready-For-Prime-Time cameras and offered to let anyone wait until the cameras were ready. This offer was extended to ALL customers who are to receive cameras before they're "Ready".

AS SUCH, we KNEW going into this that we were the "Right Stuff" to test out cameras. Quite frankly, they probably should have waited another 60 days to release cameras. I am sure as hell glad they didn't!! I like being the first one into the breech :-).

Therefor, the early adopters need to understand that the majority of the problems we face are irrelevant to the larger Red community because they will be long gone by the time the later cameras are shipped. Too many people in the film industry are, quite frankly, techno stupid. Their information is often many months out of date. I'd hate to be trying to land a rental 9 months from now and have the producer terrified because of a post that happened today.

It's not about dishonesty folks, it's about realizing that we are facing unique problems that don't concern the greater Red community. For instance, this weekend Red #27 had trouble booting. I freaked out, I called Jarred telling him that it was dead, I truly believed it. It turns out that Red #27 is fine, I was just trying to reboot it too early. Not a big deal, now I know and can deal with it and manage expectations. Imagine if I had blasted my concerns over the boards on Sat night? That helps NO ONE.

Ya'll know me, I love this place, and want to help each and every person here as much as possible. My thoughts were not to be "omnious" as I was accused, but rather encouraging people to understand that what Red's #1-#50 are going through is not relevant to the later Reds, so long as Red is notified about it.

[Matt Setnes]

Shawn and everyone else. The first post in no way included paranoia or rants, it was plain and simple like this

"Camera is still very buggy though. We had A LOT of lockup/reboot issues all day"

This guy was not even seeking any help, he was stating his "field test". Come on people. Just because Red is revolutionary does not mean we need pull a Bush Administration act on it's faults. I would rather people publicly state bugs so I can become more familiar with the camera myself. If the company doesn't understand that this will happen regardless of the faith we put into the revolution then they might as well wait till these camera's are fully tested for release. I understand the these are the first 50, but can I ask where is the first 50 number relevant? Is 50 the magic number? I expect bugs all the way till my number, I just prefer to know about each one regardless if they were fixed.

[LighthouseMEdia]

Ditto That Bluestar!!!

[David Battistella]

Us early adopters are a different sort of customer. Not better, just different. It's bittersweet: we get cameras way before most others but we know that we are receiving beta cameras. When I was down at Red Day Jim made it known we were getting Not-Ready-For-Prime-Time cameras and offered to let anyone wait until the cameras were ready. This offer was extended to ALL customers who are to receive cameras before they're "Ready".


I never realized until now that 1-50 were beta releases.


Therefor, the early adopters need to understand that the majority of the problems we face are irrelevant to the larger Red community because they will be long gone by the time the later cameras are shipped.

This is a very, very good point and we appreciate that you are the ones taking the hit for future users. I have been on the bleeding edge and I know what it means to fly this way.




Imagine if I had blasted my paranoia over the boards on Sat night? That helps NO ONE.

True, but I do not think the original post was paranoia. It was opinion and information. Until reading this thread I had no idea the extent of some of the issues users were facing, just that there were issues.



Ya'll know me, I love this place, and want to help each and every person here as much as possible.

We know this Shawn and many people share this view of the forum.
Thank you.

David

[Shawn Nelson]

RGD, you don't owe anybody an explanation/apology or anything. Who bought your camera? You. When someone buys my camera for me, then they can tell me not to post or how to handle a problem. Jesus, this forum is nothing like DVXUser. Too intense. I respect everyone here, but relax. Give this guy a break. I for one, would like to see more of his footage.

Uh...no didn't. His Red is in the 300s.

So, who's camera was this?

[Rick Darge]

It was a camera below the 50s... :) I won't say because I don't think its fair to the owner. I'll leave it up to them to warn future customers.

[Keith Alan Morris]

...perhaps there should be a separate, as in "private and non-searchable" forum directed exclusively for current registered RED owners.

Cinevate, a 35mm adapter manufacturer, hosts an "Owner's Only" forum and, let me tell you, it works pretty darn well. 100% useful info. 0% FUD. "Owners helping owners," so to speak.

REDUSER.net should take the same approach, IMHO.

bad idea. might as well take down redUSER then, or rename it to redDreamer. who needs a community if its just rainbows and cotton candy? we're all adults here and wont panic. in fact, after seeing all the great work posted, the only thing that would make me panic is if someone said, "Oh that footage? All fake." :-)

[Poi Boy]

Wow, this thread is really going nowhere...he said,he meant blah blah blah. We all know now that the first cameras had issues and that red has jumped on those bugs and will continue to do so. We also know that those bugs have slowed some people down but not stopped anyone from getting great images.
Can we move on now ? How about more footage from all you lucky bastard beta testers ?
Aloha
-A

[Júlio Taubkin]

Hey, Shawn, I understand your point of view, and we, as readers know that the cameras that are being reported are betas. But to be true to Jim's words, he said that the cameras would never be ready and continue to be improved over the years, so it's just a matter of seeing what has been the user experience so far, nothing more sinister than that. I can't believe anybody can have a contrary reaction to RGD's post, it was a simple post, and pretty honest. And If somebody is loosing footage, it's great that we know the causes, either if it's from operator error, or camra quirks to be solved. We can learn from it either way. I come here to study on what I feel will be the primary acquisition method in a year or two, and honest information is what I'm looking for when I'm here: RAW footage, workflow, operation instructions and tips, and, heck, user experience.

I understand the concerns about creating FUD, but I just cannot see this post that way. I just think we cannot censor the sharing of information, any information, as long as it's not a lie. We all loose.

Cheers,

Boy, I wish I had one over here!

J.

[Poi Boy]

I hate to ask but I've been wondering all day and even my son doesn't know...WTF does FUD stand for ?
-A

[Matt Setnes]

All in favor of subject matter closed?

[Paul Leeming]

I hate to ask but I've been wondering all day and even my son doesn't know...WTF does FUD stand for ?
-AFear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

[David Battistella]

There the dead horse has been beaten!

Brook?

How about it....

[Shawn Nelson]

There the dead horse has been beaten!

Brook?

How about it....

Hey hey! You never know when someone who hasn't chimed in yet will have something insightful.

[Brook Willard]

Oh, the irony.

If the thread is dead, it's easy to stop replying. If there's more to intelligently discuss, by all means have at it.

[damonbots]

Hey hey! You never know when someone who hasn't chimed in yet will have something insightful.

I agree. By the way, has anybody tried the new Charmin Ultra Soft toilet paper? A nice soft touch with a light and lovely fragrance.

[liquidigital]

I want to see more of this frakin stuff...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1203&d=1190014880

[Ryan Sims]

Currently, posting a bug in the Footage/Field Tests forum is a concern. But, I would have no problem with a new forum that sorts issues and bugs by firmware revision numbers. That way we could save the headaches of someone reading general posts later and re-posting questions on a bug that was fixed with newer firmware. It would also be helpful to know what features are enabled in the different firmwares. Threads that list a bug will be "out-dated" as soon as a new firmware is posted. Move any thread that relates to a bug to its appropriate firmware forum.

It's too early to say "revision 1.xx is stable, but the this new 1.xx.x beta has a really cool feature but will crash if you do this" but that's the kind on notes I'd like to see in a firmware revision forum. I might want to try out the cool feature. Or, I might not need that new cool feature, so I'd then stay with a known stable release.

Should it be private? I don't think so. Most people will understand "Oh...if you have this problem, download this firmware revision" if we list it like a software bug report. Not something we are use to with film cameras, but it's common place with the Internet and computer software/hardware. You are reading this on an Internet forum, I assume?:construction:

[Poi Boy]

FUD.. thanks Vis. ! Given the footage, what a dumb ass thing to have about a few Red bugs, let alone worrying that someone else would feel that way. Amazing !
-A

[Mark Thorpe]

I agree. By the way, has anybody tried the new Charmin Ultra Soft toilet paper? A nice soft touch with a light and lovely fragrance.Yeah, but don't get the flower patterned one, man the highlights are soooooo blown out on that print!! :waaa:

[David Battistella]

Yeah, but don't get the flower patterned one, man the highlights are soooooo blown out on that print!! :waaa:

Gawd!

:)

Soft and fluffy though...nobody like the sandpaper feel of the "no frills brand", it's like camping at home...

ha

david

[Mark Thorpe]

Gawd!
:) ...nobody like the sandpaper feel.....david

Give me sandpaper over Palm leaves any day......ooyayyy, me nads....:pinch:

[Finner]

...my comment was NOT directed at you specifically, but at others in the community who seem not to get the "Purpose."

From what I have seen there are a lot of different people with many different purposes. Some with just an interest. Some to help be prepared to use the camera when they get the chance. Some that just think the company has cool bussiness plan. Some old some young. I guess what I am trying to say is that it just seems a little arogant to state that you "get the Purpose" more then anyone else here.

[John Cordell]

I have camera #14. I've never seen the camera hang or need a reboot when pressing the record button to end recording. Not once. If that was happening to the original poster 90% of the time, I think it's likely that something was going wrong with that particular camera. So instead of characterizing it as "camera is still very buggy" as the original poster did, a more accurate description would be to say that he was working with a camera that was failing quite a bit. That's just a guess on my part, but that's what I think is likely true.

I haven't found my camera to be very buggy at all, yet it is almost certainly running the exact same firmware version. I have experienced a bad LCD/EVF cable. I have had a hang on reboot happen a handful of times. I have had it occasionally not honor the fan speed setting while recording. That's about it for me -- it's really been surprisingly trouble free. And the images are simply stunning.

I don't mean this post to deny, in any way, the original posters experience -- just thought I'd add some more data to help outside viewers form a (hopefully) realistic and useful picture of where things stand with the camera as of now.

[Mark B.]

90 second power up??! Is that normal for these cameras? That's scary. Did they stick some sort of Linux OS into this thing, with a full OS boot-up? This camera, I like the specs and all, but I'm getting concerned that it might be a 10 pound magnesium case filled with some spaghetti solutions.

P.S. - I think bugs and bad experiences need to be posted to these forums so that people who are in mission critical need of stability can understand the potential issues before they pay out their money.

P.P.S. - If Red is finding more bugs than anticipated at this point in the project, or are falling behind on their scheduled features, then they should consider hiring a few more developers onto their team instead of sliding the shipping dates back too much.

[Häakon]

90 second power up??! Is that normal for these cameras?
Yes, please do a search:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=78513#post78513

[Shawn Nelson]

P.P.S. - If Red is finding more bugs than anticipated at this point in the project, or are falling behind on their scheduled features, then they should consider hiring a few more developers onto their team instead of sliding the shipping dates back too much.

Ever heard of the Mythical Man Month?

Put simply, you can't get 9 women to produce one child in one month...

[Andrew Benz]

90 second power up??! Is that normal for these cameras? That's scary. Did they stick some sort of Linux OS into this thing, with a full OS boot-up? This camera, I like the specs and all, but I'm getting concerned that it might be a 10 pound magnesium case filled with some spaghetti solutions.


Really Mark?:)

On another note I hope things are getting better w/ your injury.

Cheers-- Andrew

[Roberto B]

Oh, the irony.

If the thread is dead, it's easy to stop replying. If there's more to intelligently discuss, by all means have at it.seems to me it's hot.. very hot.. running quite well.. a hit.. even mentioned on cinematography.com.. look out, fanboys.. the big brother is watching us.. :)

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=25606&view=findpost&p=194052

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/grinser/grinning-smiley-004.gif

[Rick Darge]

Crap.. I, by know means meant to create this kind of shit-storm. .

[Sam Druckerman]

it's really been surprisingly trouble free.

Hi John,

Thanks for sharing your experience and showing us the other side of the coin.

LOL ..... Now, I hate to point out the obvious but.....


And the images are simply stunning.

A picture's worth a thousand words...

We want to see some of those stunning images. Don't be shy.

[mdo]

The issue seems to be one of difference of perspective. On the one hand, people are interested in knowing the details of what's going on. On the other hand, you can bet that minor bugs posted on this site are becoming exaggerated as they reverberate through the industry. Stand on the hill and listen for the echoes. Enough reporting of half-evaluated bugs and the industry will have a completely incorrect and unfair image of the camera which will be deeply embedded and difficult to supplant. None of the regular visitors to this site will labor under that misapprehension. That pleasure will be reserved for those in the remainder of the industry who don't take the time to examine all the details.

Persons who now have cameras are early adopters -- a special breed that are pretty much immune to the effects of bug reports. To understand the impact of such things, you have to get into the head of the NON-early adopter -- the majority of the industry who are hyper-sensitive to such things.

Unfortunately, it seems to be the natural tendency of man to embrace and further damaging half-truths. It's not logical. It's just a fact. Logically, there should be no reason why every tiniest issue shouldn't be aired on this forum. But markets are not fully logical and the truth does not always find its way to the surface, regardless of how unjust that might be.

Gibby is correct that there is a proper line for communication of issues. It's a simple matter of fairness. Once rumors start they're extraordinarily difficult to correct. You might then expect to have the following conversation: A: "I heard Red has a problem with [fill in the blank]." B: "It did, for about two weeks, but it was completely resolved." A: "Really? I hadn't heard that. Are you sure? (etc.)" These kinds of rumors have a direct effect on the bottom line.

As Manny stated:


There IS a balance between HASTILY REPORTING any issue and keeping it a COMPLETE SECRET because someone's afraid to post it... Lets find that balance.

Let's select a balance that gives the Red guys an opportunity to render the issue moot before it requires an expensive media relations campaign to set straight.

The Red guys have been straight dealers. They deserve a fighting chance.

[Roberto B]

Crap.. I, by know means meant to create this kind of shit-storm. .i actually meant: the big brother is watching you.. ehehehehe
look out, fanboys.. the big brother is watching us.. :)

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=25606&view=findpost&p=194052

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/grinser/grinning-smiley-004.gif

edit
hey, not you rickie.. since your jan crittenden cowgirl times, i'm used to love you.. :love:
now, respect.. respecting you.. you're definitely not an asshole..

[Stephen Williams]

i actually meant: the big brother is watching you.. ehehehehe

edit
hey, not you rickie.. since your jan crittenden cowgirl times, i'm used to love you.. :love:
now, respect.. respecting you.. you're definitely not an asshole..

Hi,

Hardly, Emanuel posted a link.

Stephen

[David Battistella]

The issue seems to be one of difference of perspective.

I'd say it was more this issue that when he did post some other users suggested that it was inappropriate to be aired RED problems on a public forum. That kinda got the debate rolling..




Let's select a balance that gives the Red guys an opportunity to render the issue moot before it requires an expensive media relations campaign to set straight.

The Red guys have been straight dealers. They deserve a fighting chance.

I agree with this. If the camera is beta and still going through major evaluations (which I would say it is because they released it as an MOS, not fully enabled camera) then just call this the beta release. We have come to accept beta releases as being "buggy", it's par for the course.

Some people will shoot a feature on a beta camera (including Steven Soderberg) and some will shoot, test and evaluate until the camera is fully enabled. Not everyone will have a member of the RED team on set, but they will have the support they need as Beta testers. With "beta testing phase" as the "norm" until they hit official release I think everyone will be a bit more relaxed about things.

I believe many people outside the initial release team understood that it was not fully feature enabled, but were thinking most of these "bug" were worked out over the summer.

David

[Seung Han]

Jim has posted a sticky airing all the reported bugs. I think its very gracious of the RED TEAM to put themselves in a position like this, it shows that they respect us as part of the process as well as validate the feedback of this community. We should in turn respect their hard work and diligence by making sure people who are not active participants of Reduser.net are not getting fed misinformation and outdated rumours. I am not talking about censorship but just common sense in terms of following the obvious channels of communication that early adopters like Shawn and Gibby are supporting.

As much as I want to know everything about the camera, I really don't want Jim and his people spending their time on spin control. I would much rather have them use their energies and talents on fine tuning the camera. Just think about how much most companies spend on their marketing department as oppose to their R&D. It would turn any consumer into a cynic.

So, Jim, himself, has posted this sticky and said it will be continually updated. Bugs and errors is now a transparent process. I think the least we can do for this type of honesty when so much is riding on perception is actively nip rumours and misinformation in the bud by pointing people in the right direction in this community as well as other communities where RED is in discussion. I am not talking about flame wars or blind enthusiasm for RED but actively educating people who are getting the wrong information or fixating on old issues. Since we want real time information on problems that will become irrelevant, we should make sure this information does not stick somewhere out there, sit around and get moldy. Mold is hard to get rid off and it smells bad...

[Roberto B]

Hi,

Hardly, Emanuel posted a link.

Stephen

stephen, what i meant is.. once jim classified two specimens.. hecklers and fanboys.. i'd add a new category.. the non-assholes.. :)

[Desert Rune]

this thread is extremely depressing... on all levels. :(

[Roberto B]

when you can't get another solution, here is what the psychiatrics are used to recommend to their depression disorder patients:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1373/prozac2qt4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:innocent:

[overlandfilms]

Jim and the team have been transparent through the research and development phase, encouraging a collaborative dialog.

The original post was candid, from a known poster who is a customer by extension.

Those who are using the camera today and those who are still in line should be able to receive real-world posts from the field that aren't edited or censored to protect the corporate interests. Naturally...

If it is slander or libel, shut it down, but I really think this intelligent and pragmatic community of owner-operators benefits from an honest and transparent sharing of information now that the camera is out there and working.

We all have a good feeling for what RED is doing behind the scenes to pro-actively resolve known issues. Getting them known doesn't have to be a secret-society operation either.

[Michael Schrengohst]

90 second power up??! Is that normal for these cameras? That's scary. Did they stick some sort of Linux OS into this thing, with a full OS boot-up? This camera, I like the specs and all, but I'm getting concerned that it might be a 10 pound magnesium case filled with some spaghetti solutions.

P.S. - I think bugs and bad experiences need to be posted to these forums so that people who are in mission critical need of stability can understand the potential issues before they pay out their money.

P.P.S. - If Red is finding more bugs than anticipated at this point in the project, or are falling behind on their scheduled features, then they should consider hiring a few more developers onto their team instead of sliding the shipping dates back too much.



I would much rather have 10 pounds of hot spaghetti and be able to add
cutting edge spaghetti then get 3 year old cheese slices that go moldy.

[Shawn Nelson]

seems to me it's hot.. very hot.. running quite well.. a hit.. even mentioned on cinematography.com.. look out, fanboys.. the big brother is watching us.. :)

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=25606&view=findpost&p=194052

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/grinser/grinning-smiley-004.gif

Interesting...not the first time I've been specifically mentioned derogatively over there. They also direct link to three of my footage clips and comment.

[Roberto B]

stephen, what i meant is.. once jim classified two specimens.. hecklers and fanboys.. i'd add a new category.. the non-assholes.. :)it's open:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4698

[Rick Darge]

another one.

[Roberto B]

no post at all?..

[Mark B.]

Ever heard of the Mythical Man Month?

Put simply, you can't get 9 women to produce one child in one month...

Ah, but consider the possibilities of 9 women who are well-versed in genetic engineering.

No, but seriously, if Red wants to produce 9 babies in 9 months, they really should have at least 9 women involved in the project.

[mezmo]

Crap.. I, by know means meant to create this kind of shit-storm. .
Hi Rgd,
Don't feel bad about this, bound to happen at some point.
Never be afraid to say what you think, keeping quiet is a bigger
problem IMHO.
Not at all suprised that early Reds have a few problems,its the first
45 out the door for this rather small and inexperienced company.
But Jim has 5 of his own to back these up and if 10% have problems
that's normal for a company like this.
This is an interesting time for Red as it gears up to produce another
1950 odd cameras.
Be sure that the company will grow and quality control will become
an artform at Red as it is with other large producers of digital
imaging technology.
At the end of this process the failure rate out the factory door may
only be 1 in 200 or better.
Don't think Sony and Pannie don't produce lemons. I had an early 900
die on a night shoot for 3 hours at about 2am in the morning. Very ugly.
The camera was relaced by Sony because the fault was a component on
one of the main boards.
The Genesis cacked it's pants more than once on the last Superman movie.
Red is a new camera from a new and emerging company and like the similar SI 2K it has
to earn it's place in the industry over time.
It may take another 12 months to get these cameras and the systems that
go with them reliable and mostly fault free.
Low cost Digital Cinema will get there eventually.
Hang in there and speak freely. Mezmo

[Mark B.]

Hi Rgd,
At the end of this process the failure rate out the factory door may
only be 1 in 200 or better.

I think a useful thing to figure out is whether the problems have been created due to a flaw in the system programming or the hardware. That'll help in predicting the number of anomalous problems we might see in the future.

[dino g]

As one of the first 50, i am very entertained by this thread.

first, whom rented this camera? where were they?

this is a great example of why these first 50 or maybe even the first 100 should only be rented in the presence of their owners.

there was a tech-training day, it was called red-day and all the owners that wanted to show up and learn, did. it was a great experience, I had matt, whom designed most of the external components of the camera, personally hang with me for two hours configuring my camera and answering questions. also during that time jim and jarred came by my work area and just hung out too and answered questions.

they let us stay there until we were 100% satisfied with the cameras and felt like we knew everything we needed to know to be able to start shooting, if the person that rented the camera did not do that, then it is not red's fault.

did the person who bought the camera ever test it before renting it out?

I suggest to 50-100, shoot 20 CF cards worth of data before you take it out to a client, make sure it works perfectly, and if it doesn't, call jarred, sean, jim, matt; THEY WILL ANSWER THEIR CELL Phones 24/7, trust me they have answered my calls.

jim has repeatedly said this is not a SONY or PANASONIC camera, it is a work in progress and i suggest that those that can't hang with that proposition should bail on their spot and let someone with a bit more patience and understanding take their cameras.

we have rented our camera out once so far to a director and a dp that fell deeply in love with it over the 12 hours we were on set and they fell even more in love once they got home the next day and started to screen the footage. moreover, they called praising me for being so hands on during the shoot, despite the fact that i did not charge some astronomical DIT fee for being on set.

buy your camera, rent it out, but be there and be the expert on set, no one else will have more experience with your camera than you. does your computer ever crash, do you know why it does, do you know the steps it takes to get it working again...of course you do, it's yours and it worked perfectly until that one day when something happened and you trouble shooted it for 6 hours and figured out a work-around, so you never had to deal with it again. this is the same situation, except unlike computers, you can call the owner of the company on his cell phone and he will deal with your problem himself or pass the phone directly to one of his guys whom will deal with it immediately, where else does that happen on this planet, i challenge anyone to name one other company that has sales over 5 million dollars a year that has that kind of customer service.

the bottom line is that this is a new experience for every single person on planet earth. and to let the camera just go out and hope for the best does a dis-service to us all.

as an owner i am finding that my role is part camera owner, part rental house and part salesperson for the red. i love being in that position and am taking the role serious, learning everything i can about what the camera can and cant do, scouring the boards for insight from other owners (including the founder et. al.); because at the end of the day if i am in santa monica on a bluff and a person walks by that knows what it is, i suddenly become the one person that "knows it all", so i better be ready.

why should i care, because i want the camera to keep progressing, cause if this is the worst it gets, i cant wait to see the future. because i want producers to request the cameras, i want DP's and Director's to insist on the camera, i want every tv show and feature film originated on this format so the cinematic experience can be the best it can be.

we all want to see what the director has in their mind, - can't do that with 35mm; because dust and coca-cola finger prints by 20 something non-union projectionists at multiplexes could give a crap about your cinematic experience so they treat that print like S#!^ and 5 screenings past the opening one has a print that is at 60% of the intended brightness, this camera changes that equation, forever!

if you cant see that you have not been paying attention, DCI approved 2k projectors when they really wanted just 4k; but had no way of enforcing that because in 2001, there were no 4k cameras on the horizon; in 6 months when there are 4k features in movie theatres acquired with red and projected by the SONY 4k using a proper playback device, audience members will demand that and only that alchemy.

long live red, shame on the renter for being absent and not letting the rentee know the rules of the camera; in my experience, jarred or jim or sean or matt or someone would have driven from wherever with a backup and been there in less than an hour, why do you think they all drive sports cars?

RED OWNERS be present, we are in this together, one bad experience and you get 12 pages of BS, and a lot of misunderstanding; future owners, learn your camera before you pimp it out, this is not an panasonic hd-wanna-be; there are no excuses for the image quality and no p2 rape the buyer flash cards either, this is a serious professional camera, and it comes with responsibility, so be responsible and don't treat it like a surf board that you'll lend to anyone cause it already has some dings..it's a RED...

drinking the kool-aide since 9:03 AM 4/24/06.

[Frank Mirbach]

Well written ! Congratulations, you´re very right !

[liquidigital]

Everyone makes very good points, but the fact is, RED has had an overwhelmingly positive start. There are bound to be hiccups. Look what Canon is going through right now with the 1D Mark III. Read the boards at dpreview. Canon, Nikon, or any other camera company will typically release mulitple versions of firmware fixing bugs over the course of a camera's release. Not a big deal. And it truly amazes me that you all are offered the cell phone number of the company's owner. No one does that.

The reality is this (feel free to post this on those other boards) the footage is stunning. Technically there's enough information to tailor it to look however you want aesthetically. I think you have to have a grasp on color grading and post to understand this. Those that don't will be the critics. No prob, people used to think the world was flat too.

Now, let's see some more footage. :)

[metropilot]

Crap.. I, by know means meant to create this kind of shit-storm. .

It´s the nature of such a Forum that these :angry03: rants happen.

No matter if the users are grown up industry professionals or 13 year old hardcore gamers I guess.

Once out of control a subject like this normally get´s closed by an admin.
At least when the posters are matching the 13 year old hardcore gamer catergory... :w00t:

[kunal2]

Hmm why not embedding the camera with a sort of battery which continuously power the camera for a few minutes during a sudden power failure ? enough time to write to storage device.

The camera manual PDF given to those who received cameras, Chapter 8 Managing Digital Media, has specific paragraphs on "Media Formatting" and "Re-formatting a previously used Compact Flash".

The same chapter also has a paragraph entitled "Removing Media". There is a button the back of the camera named "UNDO". To unmount the digital media, you have to press and hold the UNDO key and then press the "EXIT" key until the GUI reports "Safe to Remove" or status display reports "NoN" in the media status.

Then there's this warning that follows:

"Un-mounting ensures that power is removed from the digital media and open files are closed. Physical removal of CF media or disconnecting a RED-Drive without first un-mounting it may not cause any damage, but does increase the risk of file corruption if data is being recorded"

Brad Hagen, owner of RED 15 & 16, even tested unplugging one of his REDs during recording to see how much data was lost, and only lost a few seconds of data. Here’s his post on that:

“With the Red camera, a concern was what would happen if the Red lost power or the camera "crashed" during a recording to CF (compact flash) or a drive for that matter. As soon as we got our cameras on the test bench my concern turned to curiosity and I simulated a power failure by pulling the plug, the power plug, during a recording. The result? The data was fine except for the last 3 to 7 seconds. The length of bad bits or lost data varied depending on the shooting length, the longer the file the larger the bad bits. The most we ever had were 7 seconds and that was on a 3 minute recording. This is GREAT news. The RED team obviously thought about real world use and this possibility so the files written are sectioned so data loss is minimal. Think of it as similar to changing lenses on an old Bolex - the film in the gate is ruined but the rest of the reel is fine.

If anyone else had tried similar tests with their Red cameras I would be interested in their experience; please share.”

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4660

What I’m saying is:

1) Owners and renters need to read the camera manual and make sure they are operating the camera correctly

2) If there is a problem in the field, and you’re sure you’ve been operating the camera as per the manual instructions, the fastest way to get your problem defined and solved is to contact RED

3) If RED is aware of the problem and is actively solving it, then that’s what we as owners/renters of the camera are after.

4) If it is an individual problem, or an operator error problem, then its up to us as owners/renters to get up to speed with the camera

5) If it is an acknowledged firmware or hardware glitch then RED has been very open about talking about those