MX upgrade in France and custom duty

[Olivier Madar]

Hi,

I just went to Fedex this afternoon for sending my RedOne or MX upgrade (2070). And they said that I will have to pay TVA and duties again !! They don't do temporary export, and I have to find a "transit air" company, and Red have to send back the RedOne through the same transit air. If not, I have to pay again VAT and taxes...

So, my question is : who has already done the MX upgrade in France and how did you send The RedOne ?

Do you have any ideas or suggestions ?


Olivier

[Billy McCannon]

Hi Olivier,

Fedex guy probably deals with export and knows nothing about import. Call the Fedex import people.

I've tried other couriers and they are all about the same or worse. Stick with Fedex because they handled the original import.


You need:

a Original Tracking Number
b Fedex account number
c State it is warranty repair/upgrade

The most important is your original tracking no. That is the tracking number from your original import of the camera. This number allows Fedex to access your previous importation details when the camera is returned.

Make sure to say on the Air Waybill that it is a warranty repair or upgrade.

Also, you probably have a Fedex account even if you don't know it. If you know the number put it on the waybill. If not phone Fedex and see if they have one for you. They give you a new number every-time you import something unless you put your number on the AirWaybill. This creates no end of confusion so it is best to use one number. This will ensure they don't bill the TVA.

I think this is everything but it doesn't do any harm to call the Fedex customs/import people (not sure what they are called in France but they handle the importation documents when the camera is returned) they know what you need to have in order to avoid being taxed again. They will tell you what else will make life easier.

[Olivier Madar]

Thank you for your answer. I have call the custom by phone. They tell me "you have to find a "specialist" (called a "commissionnaire en douanes" in french)... This country is so complex that people creates company just for managing this stupid complexity.

So, what shall I do ?
- Yes Fedex did my original import (I am very afraid of asking them the number, it will be an enormous pain)
- The "commissionnaires en douanes" don't have it, are much more expensive than Fedex, but should be "expert" in such bargain.

Nobody did it in France before me ?


Olivier


Hi Olivier,

The guy at Fedex is an idiot. He probably deals with export and knows nothing about import. Call the Fedex import people.

I've tried other couriers and they are all about the same or worse. Stick with Fedex because they handled the original import.

I've spent hours talking to idiots and assholes in Fedex before finally getting someone who was helpful. - they do exist.

You need:

a Original Tracking Number
b Fedex account number
c State it is warranty repair/upgrade

The most important is your original tracking no. That is the tracking number from your original import of the camera. This number allows Fedex to access your previous importation details when the camera is returned.

Make sure to say on the Air Waybill that it is a warranty repair or upgrade.

Also, you probably have a Fedex account even if you don't know it. If you know the number put it on the waybill. If not phone Fedex and see if they have one for you. They give you a new number every-time you import something unless you put your number on the AirWaybill. This creates no end of confusion so it is best to use one number. This will ensure they don't bill the TVA.

I think this is everything but it doesn't do any harm to call the Fedex customs/import people (not sure what they are called in France but they handle the importation documents when the camera is returned) they know what you need to have in order to avoid being taxed again. They will tell you what else will make life easier.

[Billy McCannon]

Hi Olivier,

It is difficult to imagine that Fedex can handle this in Ireland and the Uk but not in France.

The tracking number will be on the email Red sent you before delivering your camera. If you don't have it you might have the invoice Fedex sent you to collect the VAT on the original - you can get the number from that or try your Red rep.

[Olivier Madar]

Thank you,


I did not think about retrieving Red email for finding the Fedex tracking number. Red only works with Fedex, so if I take another company, I will have much more trouble. So, I think I have to contact a "chief" at Fedex France.


Olivier




Hi Olivier,

It is difficult to imagine that Fedex can handle this in Ireland and the Uk but not in France.

The tracking number will be on the email Red sent you before delivering your camera. If you don't have it you might have the invoice Fedex sent you to collect the VAT on the original - you can get the number from that or try your Red rep.

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Olivier,

I had the same problem a few years back with the same "explanation" : Fedex doesn't do temporary exports. It's a problem Red has to solve, as they're Fedex clients. Fedex is just a big piece of shit. I don't know how Red is going to improve this when the Scarlet will be available, but I really hope they will find a way to repair these cameras without getting stuck with customs problems.

A possible solution for you : trying to see with Red at Pinewood if they can send your camera directly to their headquarters. A UK to France shipping should be less problematic, although the UK aren't in Europe (no Schengen space). Red should have chosen Germany for their European base, less problems for real Europeans ;-)

[Alan Piper]

I'm not in France of course, but RED Europe are using FedEx regularly and we experience very few problems with temporary export and imports.
The trick here is to do exactly what Billy has said, but in addition we ask FedEx to register the export via a 'Pre-Alert' form. This will return a document to us with that registration number. Upon return, Fedex should contact you and ask how you wish the import to be cleared. You must instruct them that it is a Repair Return and they must register that import. Again you should get the registration number.
We then have 6 months to give the 'balanced' Export Entry Number and Import Entry Numbers to our Tax office and unless something is wrong, we hear no more.
Unfortunately, due to import requirements at the receiving US office, I am unable to offer to ship from the UK office.

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Thanks Alan, but this unfortunately doesn't work at all this way in Europe. You can't really generalyze your situation in the UK compared to Europe which has its own customs regulations. It looks like things haven't improved since a few years judging by the number of people I know in Europe who are running into problems with customs when repairing/updating or even buying their Reds.

If things were as easy as you pretend, Alan, you should be able to send Olivier's Red to your headquarters without any problems :closedeyes: ...

I'll probably buy a Scarlet S35 system but this is a really worrying problem. It's just not possible to rely on this kind of shipments back and forth, especially if the warranty of the new models will be 1 year (not confirmed ?). I've been saying the same thing for about 2 years now.

At Red Europe you should also be able to repair and upgrade MX bodies from the start. Sorry to sound harsh, but it's really a serious problem that Red should solve for good.

[Alan Piper]

Like I said, I'm not in France and I don't mean to generalise but rather offer how it works here (we are in the EU and 'should be harmonised' :laugh:) - Ultimately we want to be in a situation whereby the UK office can look after EU repairs in their entirety. The MX Upgrade is a special requirement and RED have set up a dedicated facility to handle the demand. We aren't in a position to do that in the UK.
Problem with FedEx is they are a courier company, not a freight company - as has been said already, they rely on the customer providing the appropriate paperwork. If you then have additional complications with French authorities, then perhaps the only way to go would be to use a bona-fide freight agent?

[Jay Gannon]

This may sounds like an expensive option, but have you considered flying to Lake Forest and staying there for a week while the upgrade is performed?

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

Hi Olivier, yes Fedex closed their temporary export office in France and recommend you go thru a "transitaire"...

Most of those "middle guys" we contacted before wanted to use their own carrier and not Fedex. The process seemed both complex, hazardous and expensive (we got quotes of approx 10 times Fedex in't priority shipping cost).

It was quite a complex path to gather all the info and do it all manually by ourselves but we managed to went through half of that french custom paperwork maze and did send our RED at CDG airport today.

We lost half a day today between the custom office in the freight zone and the Fedex counter to manage to do it directly. With all the information gathered in the previous days we had prepared all the documents needed to export it under that special economic regime called "perfectionnement passif" (EX2 régime 21) :

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp?id=227

We will have to also deal ourself with the re-import process when the camera gets back, meaning another half day at the airport minimum. It will need to stay at Fedex until we clear the customs and pay taxes on the upgrade/improvement part (not on the whole camera).

You can private message me if you want more details but honestly I'd recommend you try to find a good "transitaire" that could handle it directly (and one that could still use Fedex to keep it simple for RED) as it took us a lot of time, patience and paperwork to do it properly...

[Vincent Thomas]

I think the fact that every time we have to send camera back to USA is actually an issue and something Red shouldn't underestimated. I really hope that the London branch or so will be soon able to offer every possible service including sale that Red USA could offer...

v*

[Jarred Land]

I think the fact that every time we have to send camera back to USA is actually an issue and something Red shouldn't underestimated. I really hope that the London branch or so will be soon able to offer every possible service including sale that Red USA could offer...

v*

RED Europe is now a full service facility... they can do everything, except for MX sensor upgrades.

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Great to learn, Jarred ! When the Scarlet system will ship (S35 and 2/3") will it be possible to repair them at Red Europe as well ? Thanks !

[Matus]

Will the pro-forma you has sent me of the x-m sensor and red rocket the same
as the final commercial invoice of the updated camera?

Last year I had a very big problem when we asked you to repair our camara
You decided to collect it from our office and send it back
after being repaired for it was under warranty.-
Then, you decided to use FEDEX services so as to take and bring back
the camera to us.-
But, FEDEX never does temporary import or export of goods and the Local
Authorities considered that the camara was being sent away as a definitive
export and when it returned to Spain we had to pay 3000 euros again as if
we were importing a new camera.-
The Customs office in Spain did not consider the paper stating that the
camera was under a warranty of repair, they only considered the
value of the camara in the document 17.500 US dollars.-

If you put the total price of the m-x sensor and the red rocket on the
invoice is going to came back, I will only have to pay that vat (16% of
8750usd) and the import will be ok.
But if you put the price of the camera also, I will have to pay an extra
of 3.000 euros again (for the third time).

Can you make sure that the final commercial invoice will be exactly equal
to the pro forma?
What about the shipping insurance when the camera returns to Spain?
What kind of documents are you going to attach to the camera when returns?

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

follow up on our camera upgrade and french customs...

camera is back with MX sensor, we only paid for import duties and VAT on the improvement part of the camera (5750 USD + shipping) and everything went fine (camera was held at FEDEX until we filled the re-import paper ourself at the same airport custom office used for the temporary export).

It does take some time to do it manually but we didn't have to pay any middle man... here is the receipe :

- fill export document EX A 21 at french custom
- send camera via fedex with only the 2 RED provided US custom documents
- when camera was back at fedex after MX upgrade : fill re-import document IM A 61 21 and pay taxes on upgrade work
- give fedex a copy of this paper to release the camera and have it delivered

HTH

Mikael

[Steven-Marc C.]

Merci Mikael !

[Olivier Madar]

I will try Nova del Bene, as an intermediate mandatory these days. You will be informed as how it goes.


Olivier

[hans de vries]

This may sounds like an expensive option, but have you considered flying to Lake Forest and staying there for a week while the upgrade is performed?

Can you imagine that that is actually what I'm considering?

[Olivier Madar]

It has been more than a month that I try to send my camera to Red...

I get the MX upgrade ready message the 2th may, and the camera is still not arrived in the US.

First try : Fedex. Wrong move, they closed their temporary export office
Second try : Savino Del Bene. They took the camera but did not send it because they can't be sure it won't be blocked at the US custom. They contact Red, but Red ask thema question like "who send you the camera ?". I tryed to contact Nick by email to make the join between Christophe (the one who cares about my Red at Savino Del Bene) and him but I get no answer.

So, what can I do ??? It is crazy. Still no camera and no MX. I am sure there are a lot of French people that will need the same in the near future.

Please Red, help me !!

[Sanjin Jukic]

Olivier,

I would call and ask tomorrow RED Europe in London for help.

An idea is to sent your RED to London and then maybe RED Europe could sent your RED to California much easier from London.

Give a call and clear tomorrow all about it.

[Loic Parent]

Hi Olivier,
if you have any luck sending you red to the states please keep us posted..
we are soon to be in the same wagon, and any insight will be greatly appreciated!

god thoses customs and administratives nightmares!

[ericyoung]

Olivier,

I would call and ask tomorrow RED Europe in London for help.

An idea is to sent your RED to London and then maybe RED Europe could sent your RED to California much easier from London.

Give a call and clear tomorrow all about it.

Alan Piper form RED Europe has already stated above that he cannot offer this service due to US Customs import requirements.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Alan Piper form RED Europe has already stated above that he cannot offer this service due to US Customs import requirements.

That means to call the office of French President Nicolas Sarkozy, maybe somebody from that high level could help,

because I know France is a pretty centralized, an idea is just to ask the head office what is going on there...

[Sven Seynaeve]

And I still believe Red has to open up an upgrade service and further full shop or office taking care of this in central Europe, not in the UK.

France, Germany , Belgium, Swiss, Austria, Spain is sometimes much easier to reach then the UK, (because it seems the UK still seems a different state).

This is is exactly "THE REASON" why i've never purchased a RED without MX in the first place and I rather wait for more camera's on the EPIC, or to the moment where I can get it shipped directly with MX sensor. And even then , I'd prefer to pick it up or deal with a european based office.

Alan is a good sollution, but why can't we just get camera bodies over there.

Why can't we order a MX-d red directly right now???
This doesn't seem unfair to me.

[Olivier Madar]

After more than a month, I get back my RedOne WITHOUT MX upgrade...

Savino Del Bene did not send the Camera in temporary export and I lost more than 1 month.
Next step : I will do as Mikael did
- Go to Roissy Airport
- Spend half a day discussing with custom people
- And "maybe" be able to send the camera
- And "maybe" get it back with the same process at the airport

That is quite incredible.:furious3:
Does any other people in France did it in another way ?

[Olivier Madar]

Sorry for the english speaking people, but I will do this "how to" in french because I think this soluce is only dor french people.

Finalement, après 1 mois et demi de perdu avec un transit air, Savino Del Bene, pourtant recommandé par Red, et un bon contact avec eux, j'ai du opté pour la méthode "Mikael" (à ma connaissance c'est le premier à avoir effectué le dédouanement lui-même).

Le problème "français" : Fedex ne fait pas d'export temporaire et les transit air ne sont pas intéressé pour le faire "one shot" (ou à des prix prohibitifs). Il faut reconnaitre que c'est hyper-pénible comme procédure.

1er temps : envoi de la Red, 3 heures dans mon cas
- Aller aux douanes à Roissy (batiment 3701 rue des terres neuves) avec les 2 feuilles fournies par Red et la caméra déballable pour inspection (GPS obligatoire)
- Remplir le formulaire vert. Vous avez besoin d'aide pour y arriver, bien que cela ne soit pas au douanier de le faire : soyez sympa car si vous tombez sur un mauvais coucheur vous êtes cuit.
- Ensuite, allez à Fedex Roissy (3 km plus loin, GPS obligatoire aussi) route de l'arpenteur, zone d'entretien
- Envoyer la caméra en précisant bien que vous faites l'export temporaire vous-même (la personne au guichet reste probablement un peu perplexe et aura à passer 1 ou 2 coups de fil). N'oubliez pas de récupérer la copie verte et gardez bien la facture Fedex d'envoi.

2eme temps : récupération de la Red, 5 heures dans mon cas
- Dès que vous recevez le tracking mail, retour aux douanes. Là, il va falloir la facture de l'upgrade. Dans mon cas, je ne l'avais pas. Donc demander à Red la copie certifiée en pdf. Le douanier va vous demander aussi la "lta" (quezaco?), mais se contentera de la facture Fedex d'envoi et du nom de l'aéroport de départ : Memphis (merci l'iphone, l'internet, et les tracking...).
- Remplissage à nouveau d'un formulaire vert incompréhensible
- Vous payez les taxes et frais de douanes (calculs savant et incompréhensibles), grosso modo 1 000 euros (ouf ! au dela de 1 500 euros, il aurait fallu un chèque de banque certifié !!!!)
- Ensuite, envoi à douane Fedex par fax la preuve d'acquittement de la somme. Là encore, si vous énervez le douanier, pas de fax et bonjour le merdier.
- Chez Fedex, je vous donne un contact qui accepte de rendre ce merdier plus digeste : madame Benrejdal, tel : 01 49 39 60 35, fax : 01 49 19 91 13
- Ensuite, vous prenez rendez-vous avec elle pour reprise de la Red en échange d'une copie du fameux bordereau vert.

Fedex fera probablement plus tard l'export temporaire, et tout sera réglé. En attendant, l'upgrade MX en France est une véritable galère.


Olivier

[Loic Parent]

Thanks for the infos Olivier,

this is incredibly complicated for just a temporary export! and it work only if you live near Paris..

I think we will wait until we eventually have enough time to fly to california, and drop our cameras directly at Lake forest : it will be faster and cheaper!

or hope the Epic-x comes first..

anyway again thanks for sharing your experience you saved us from wasting a lot of time!

merci!

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Hi all,

I shipped my Red 2 days ago via Fedex Hausmann. The guy there introduced me to a really cool transitaire. I'm waiting to see if my trick will be fruitful, in which case it would solve a lot of hassle and money to french owners. I'll know more in a week when it comes back...

I'll keep you posted.

[Dan Hudgins]

One solution to the import/export issue could be for RED to rent some small offices in France and Germany.

Those offices could be un-staffed most of the time, with someone from London to go by train to them once a week to pick up and ship packages local.

Then once a month or as needed the tech staff from London could go to the France and Germany offices to do repairs etc. on the pile of waiting cameras.

The delay would not be much longer than being held in customs and the shipping both ways to the US, but it would save on most of the paperwork problems since the camera would be worked on within the same country?

[Stephen Williams]

Swiss, .

Hi,

Switzerland is not in the EU, It would not help you unless you live in Switzerland.

[Manuel Wenger]

Had a very good experience here in Germany with DHL and Zollblitz.

Prior to sending my camer to RED i visited Zollblitz who opened the Customs documents for me (passive Veredelung) , i then went to customs and got the seal for my package and the signature on the documents. Shipped the camera to RED with Fedex.
After teh Upgrade was done, red shipped the Camera via DHL. DHL only does standard import at customs, but they ask you, how you would like they handle the import.

I instructed them to hand over everything to Zollblitz again, and i got my Camera a day later, togehter with the closed customs documents and everything was fine.

Zollblitz charged 80.- EUR for opening the documents and another 80.- EUR for the import and delivery.

I´d go that route anytime again, very easy fast and affordable.

Manuel

[Sanjin Jukic]

Had a very good experience here in Germany with DHL and Zollblitz.

Prior to sending my camer to RED i visited Zollblitz who opened the Customs documents for me (passive Veredelung) , i then went to customs and got the seal for my package and the signature on the documents. Shipped the camera to RED with Fedex.
After teh Upgrade was done, red shipped the Camera via DHL. DHL only does standard import at customs, but they ask you, how you would like they handle the import.

I instructed them to hand over everything to Zollblitz again, and i got my Camera a day later, togehter with the closed customs documents and everything was fine.

Zollblitz charged 80.- EUR for opening the documents and another 80.- EUR for the import and delivery.

I´d go that route anytime again, very easy fast and affordable.

Manuel

The same here in Austria.

The same procedure, efficiency and the price, company is called Bischoff here in Austria.

[Bérenger Brillante]

I just get caught in the craziness of being Mx'ed, from France.

How much did anyone paid for the shipping ?

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Shipping: 445,30€
I dropped it at Fedex Haussmann.

[Bérenger Brillante]

445€ !

That's seems so low ! I just got a carrier that quote me 2x800€...
Just with Fedex ? You didn't pay the whole camera vat again ? Can you tell
us more precisely how ? Did you do as Olivier said ? Which transitaire was it ?
Will I stop my questions ?

1600 seemed abusive to me, I guess I was right...

[Olivier Madar]

For the "do it yourself", you only pay 230 euros with Fedex (but 2 x half a day at least)


Olivier

[Bérenger Brillante]

I just came back from Fedex Hausmann and paid 400€ for the whole.
I use the red small box (not the one with the big sticker, i couldn't find it)
220 for the transitaire 180 for Fedex.

Great deal. I recommend everyone from Paris France to go here.
Simple paper to fill and everyone is friendly.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Great deal. I recommend everyone from Paris France to go here. Simple paper to fill and everyone is friendly.

Told ya! And the transitaire guy is awesome! :sifone:

Post your feedback when you get your Red back!

[Bérenger Brillante]

#3743 is M'Xed !!!
It's so nice to shoot 1600 ASA nicely

[mrgroove@mac.com]

I had the same problem, Sent my #3753 Red One by UPS august 27th with special option, red sent it back with FedEx 3 weeks blocked by customs services !!! i have it back only since one week. but i didn't pay more !
Last year for a EVF output repair it was the same story i decided to pay for VAT to have my camera because i need it for a shooting. so I paid 2 times and this time again they asked me for another time to pay all VAT !!!
it's a curent issue for french red owners. Next time i'll take the plane with the camera !

[Frank Glencairn]

445€ !

That's seems so low ! I just got a carrier that quote me 2x800€...


WUT!? :001_tt1: You guys sending that camera in a safe that sits in a fright container?

WTF? DHL charges 45 Euro for up to 10 Kilo and 65 Euro for up to 20 Kilo.
from Germany to USA.

I always use them - never a problem so far and great tracking/tracing online.

http://www.dhl.de/de/paket/privatkunden/preisuebersicht.html

For 800 bucks you can buy a flight ticket, bring it your self and skip all that custom trouble.

Fedex is insane!

Frank