RED the right camera & workflow?

[entelechy]

For episodic series - DVD, web and possible broadcast. We're looking to shoot using the RED camera with the new Final Cut Studio workflow both for maximum quality and to maintain this for repurposed delivery formats (we're all longtime Apple/FCP users).

As the camera is so new, we're researching whether it's the best option for us and would love to get advice. I'm one of the producers and the director, and while generally up to speed on cameras and the new technology, I'm far from an expert and certainly not a DP. We anticipate a March shoot on location in AZ, and would like to determine our workflow now to plan, discuss crew/gear, prep and budget properly.

Though limited in what we can reveal, the project involves filming race cars and we anticipate shots using everything from helicopter aerials to steadicam and cranes/jib arms. Combinations of interviews, on track footage, extensive exterior car mounts and in-car angles (think shows like the BBC's "Top Gear" and "5th Gear": http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=top+gear&search=Search). We're also looking to create additional unusual, exciting, more experimental/abstract footage.

Thanks so much for any insight.
~Chris Cummings

[PaulClements]

Hi Chris,

In a word, yes. High quality images with a fast intuitive workflow is what Red is all about. Mark from OffHollywood Productions ought to be able to shine some light about performance shooting fast cars since their first day involved shooting Stunt car drivers in a situation very typical of Top Gear/5th Gear. Helicopter aerials were used with great effect in the Peter Jackson short also even though it was only a prototype.

By March next year many of the little bugs and tweaks will be sorted and a common understanding of the optimal workflow for most situations should be nailed down.

Experimental/Abstract footage, maybe stick on a fisheye lens for some of those quirky drive by shots, don't know. The fact is you can do a great deal with the images in post to get some great and unusual effects, and the better the original shot the more succesful they are.

Sounds like an interesting project Chris. Best of luck.

Paul

[entelechy]

Thanks Paul...I just read Mark's blog and hear he's posting some of the car footage soon. The Brits do such an excellent job on this subject, I record these shows on BBC America, and their car mags are far superior as well.

Thanks again for the reply,
~Chris

[Fix]

Hi Chris,

sounds like a very cool project your into! I agree with Paul that the Red camera is defiantly one of your best option.

Think about it this way. Some of the best series made are shoot in 35mm film, even though they knew all footage would be exclusive in DVD or NTSC/PAL land (no HD). Why? Because you can tell high quality even in those formats. I think Red will give you such quality and even let you and your team do some insanely productive workarounds when it comes to editing (post).

Even though I love (Top Gear), you will literally blow their footage away with Red IMO.. That is, if you do it right ;)

[Joel Kaye]

For episodic series - DVD, web and possible broadcast. We're looking to shoot using the RED camera with the new Final Cut Studio workflow both for maximum quality and to maintain this for repurposed delivery formats (we're all longtime Apple/FCP users).

As the camera is so new, we're researching whether it's the best option for us and would love to get advice.

Final Cut is the preferred workflow by RED so far. So that should be fine. RED should be the best camera other than film due to the wide exposure range. Arizona is very bright and contrasty so you really want the camera with the widest exposure latitude. For now, that looks like RED.

If you need test footage from here to verify what the camera will produce and workflow let me know. I live 10 minutes from one of the local racetracks. Should have my RED about the end of October. Plus, I love anything high speed. :-)

[entelechy]

Thanks everyone, I truly appreciate the replies and insights...though we've been following RED for some time, it's great that they are finally here and we're playing catch-up with all the info being released of late.

Joel, we should talk when you get a chance. My email is chriscummings@mac.com. Are you a DP?

All the best,
~Chris

[GlennChan]

1- Do you need to shoot slow motion?

You may not be able to get all the details of shooting Red + slowmo right now. You could budget for film or Phantom for slowmo shots.

2- Do you need a completion bond? If so, they may have stringent requirements for backing up your material on set. If so, you may need someone on-set verifying material and making two copies of all material shot on tape (e.g. LTO).

3- Dailies requirements: Do you need to make dailies? (e.g. for your broadcaster)
Do they need to be color corrected? (Probably/hopefully not.)

4- Audio: Possibly some issues to watch out for if you record double system in regards to sync + workflow. It should be easy if you only need to record 2 synced tracks into the camera (host + environmental sound) and therefore don't need to sync- you only need to monitor the audio to make sure it's going down and record a backup.

5- Framing: frame for center crop or letterbox? Decide and stick to it.

6- Onlining + color grading:
a- Getting people with talent makes a big difference here. There are a lot of FCP editors but they don't necessarily know what they're doing.
b- Depending on your needs, you may decide to online in something other than FCP. e.g. Crossing was finished on Quantel iQ because it handles 4K well.
Do you need to do a lot of paint / roto / stabilization work?
Do you have tight deadlines?
What are your deliverables requirements? (e.g. broadcast and DCI take specialized knowledge + monitoring... more so DCI)

One approach would be to offline in FCP, and online in After Effects at HD resolution and color in Color. You just have to wait on rendering. Conforming projects into Color is very tricky, it's something to watch out for. It's also designed to work with a control surface.

[entelechy]

Hi Glenn,

All excellent points you raise. It's nice as we're ahead of the game and have time to discuss and sort these issues.

We've been discussing post workflow and I'm wondering about offline/online and how it works with RED (I know we can transcode to a multitude of formats, but not sure how it works with EDLs and recapture at higher res here). Color correction is another issue I just raised...I know some good post houses in LA I use as we'll be doing final post here.

Thanks for bringing these considerations to our attention.

All the best,
~Chris

[GlennChan]

I don't believe Redcine has been released yet so the full details aren't available.

But presumably the workflow is:


Offline edit.
[...]
Picture lock.
Export final EDL.
Redcine converts that EDL into a pull list.

(If offline and online are in different locations, hopefully there is some mechanism that helps deal with data transfer. The best is to send only the Redcode RAW clips that are used... this will transfer the fastest. Unless the online facility already has a copy of all the Redcode RAW footage... in which case you only need to email the RPL.)

--Ok, now you have a Red Pull List.
--Presumably, Redcine debayers all the clips on that pull list.
--This could potentially be output as uncompressed 2k/4k files onto a SAN.
[--The online system conforms the files via an EDL. This is checked against a video reference.]
--Hopefully there are no problems with the original EDL. Which in online conforms, there usually are.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3804

This would be the workflow for (high-end) systems that don't support Redcode RAW. They do need to support DPX or whatever other data format Redcine can output.

And it hopefully can conform data files from an EDL. If it don't support that, then an assistant needs to manually re-create the edits (would take a few hours or possibly more). I believe something like that was done on Crossing The Line (because Redcine didn't exist).

1b- Communication between the offline editor and the person doing the online conform is important. Some offline editors will send a clearly unusable EDL to the online facility (in that case they simply don't know what they're doing). I'd expect that to be worse with Redcine since they likely won't have experience with it. You could have a delay if there is a back and forth dialogue going on.

You might reduce any delays if you have both parties in the same building (rent a room or offline suite in the post facility). There might also be benefits if you use/share their VTRs or tape backup drive (not sure here). You might need the tape backup drive to deal with the amount of data files you shoot.

2- For FCP and Scratch, the workflow should be more elegant since they support Redcode RAW.

3- I'm not sure what the workflow would be for color correction on a Da Vinci 2K (which AFAIK will not take data files in). You could likely conform the project on an online (FCP) system and print to tape or a DDR. By that I mean you checkerboard the edit onto two tapes


All excellent points you raise. It's nice as we're ahead of the game and have time to discuss and sort these issues.
Definitely.

[M Most]

I'm not sure what the workflow would be for color correction on a Da Vinci 2K (which AFAIK will only take data files in). You could likely conform the project on an online (FCP) system and print to tape or a DDR. By that I mean you checkerboard the edit onto two tapes


The DaVinci 2K is primarily a video device that works in real time with HD (or SD) video, although it can work in a data mode when driving a device that can "masquerade" an image sequence as a video stream, such as a Clipster. Why would you checkerboard onto two tapes for a DaVinci color correction? All you really need to do is output the final conformed show to HD videotape, or load files onto a device like a Clipster (there are other devices, I'm just using that one as an example) and do all the color correction in real time.

[entelechy]

Thanks again Glenn and mmost - great info that we'll follow with interest as RED projects get underway. I've done color correction (well, supervised) on the DaVinci 2K, but that was back with digibeta. It's a brave, exciting new world we're entering, but I thought it would work as mmost described...

~Chris

[GlennChan]

Hi Michael,
I'm thinking you will need two tapes so that you can color correct both sides of a cross dissolve without the dissolve burned in. (Though as I understand it you usually don't need to be able to color correct both sides of a dissolve individually?)

I might be totally off base since I'm not really familiar with workflows with the da Vinci 2k.

Chris: Michael should be right. I think I'm overthinking some things here.

[entelechy]

No worries, I really appreciate the info and your taking time to help.

Cheers,
~Chris

[Rocco Schult]

Hi Michael,
I'm thinking you will need two tapes so that you can color correct both sides of a cross dissolve without the dissolve burned in. (Though as I understand it you usually don't need to be able to color correct both sides of a dissolve individually?)

You can dissolve between 2 gradings - works on DaVinci as well as Pogle.
You could say its not a perfectly accurate result as having your 2 gradings been done before and blending it afterwards. But thats more philosophical than perceivable. What remains is - you need only one tape.

[entelechy]

Good to know, thanks :)