RED PRO Primes vs. LEICA Summilux-C Primes

[KETCH ROSSi]

In over twenty years of Photography and Cinematography experiences, I have come across and used just about literally every lens ever Manufactured, or close to it;~). In photography I have come to love Hassy by Zeiss, Leica, Nikon and Canon glass, and in Cinema the Arii/Zeiss Master Primes have taken my heart from their very first appearance, then here come the Red PRO glass, and it was love all over again!!

As I'm awaiting delivery of the Epic-X S35, I find my self looking very careful on my decisions for Glass, as this will not only have to satisfy my Cinema needs but also my Photographic needs for still images. Even so I look so forward to when my Epic 645 will be released, for now I have to make good with the S35 Brain for Photography, especially since I have now officially sold every 35mm and MF Still camera and lenses.

With this comes the decision of the glass, while I was to purchase the new Leica S and their current MF S series Leica glass, I have decided to wait and see if the Epic-X S35 will do for me, RED has already announced a Canon and Nikon mounts for the Epic S35, and we hope to see also a Leica "M" and "R" mount, sorry but Hassy has really lost me when they dropped Zeiss. I dreamed of a Leica S mount on the Epic 645 as soon as I played with the "S" series glass!!

But now down to what this post is about.. RED vs. LEICA in Cine lenses.

I admit that I, like many am a lover of Shallow DOF and super fast lenses, spoiled by the 1.2's of Canon latest line up of "L" glass, so I did wished that the RED PRO PRIME lenses were all T*1.3 or T*1.4, but T*1.8 is not bad at all, however what I have wished even more, since.. well, EVER, is a set of lenses of equal dimension, length, width, and front lens diameter with screw in filter thread, just for when I needed it, and off course to be as light weight as possible, while retaining and incredible image quality.

Well here come the LEICA SUMMILUX-C Primes, which have now answered all my wishes, literally, off course Price was a bit of a surprise but no so much, I did wish for a 10k to 12k per lens top price, but instead we got 20k to 22k per lens ;~(.

If RED was to make all their RED PRO PRIMES in equal qualities of the LEICA's what would their price be? 10k? 12k? 15k? or would they also be in the same price range of 20k to 22k? Well, we just don't know, simply cause they have not announced such a thing or interest in doing so, leaving users to have to make a choice, of either get the RED PRO PRIMES now or wait in line for the LEICA SUMILUX-C Primes and pay FIVE times as much!!

RED PRO PRIMES really do offer the absolute best choice, IMO, at their price point and well above, in all their aspect, Image Quality, Construction, Size and weight, which is not too different from the ARRI/ZEISS MASTER PRIMES, and off course their Good Looks, but I would love to have them the same size, same front element Threaded Diameter and same weight, yet I do understand how much more expensive and complicated it is to make a lens of different Focal, at high speed, of the same compact size, so I take gladly what is offered, which is an "INCREDIBLE DEAL"!!

But I must say that playing with the Leica Summilux-C Primes makes me really want a set of them, just simply put, stunning design, and if current plans continue to go well, I might end up getting a set, really a Fantastic job done by the designers KUDOS!!

The choice to go Leica here, is well beyond what same might call the LEICA Lovers, or the I got Money and want Leica stereotyping, this is simply a choice of having the Absolute Best Designed Cine Lenses to Date, not comparing Image Quality here, but simply their Design!! This goes so far as in to make this the absolute most Practical Lens set to use PERIOD!! I'm sure that all of those that have found them selves carrying different size Threaded Filters, and or Bellow MB adapters and the list goes on, will agree with me on this Indisputable argument.. Just really wish their were Priced more reasonably, not that I don't understand the difference form Volume Manufacturing to Hand Made products, just that with RED's RedVolution, we had hoped other would follow in the great Example that GREAT Glass don't NEED to be so DAM Expensive!! Nevertheless I wish LEICA all the Best, and I know they will do Extremely well, even Better then Arri's and Cooke's line up IMO.

Any way, if RED decides to make a RED PRO PRIME Set of equal specs of the LEICA SUMMILUX-C Primes they will have my money for a couple of sets immediately, if priced in the 10k per lens ;~)


Btw, for now I'll be playing with the M9 and the new Noctilux .95... ;)


K E T C H ~ R O S S i
Philantropist - Director - Cinematographer
ScreenWriter - Producer - *CinePhotographer
3D DoP & Depth Budjet Specialist
______________________________

RED EPIC - M8 + Several Packages
3Ality Technica" ATOM 3D Rig
coming...
​Leica Summilux Cine Primes
Hawk V-Lite Anamorphic Primes
cMotion FF System
Mac 4K Suit
Resolve Control Surface
Briese Focus Cinema lights

KETCH ROSSi STUDiOS (http://ketchrossistudios.com/)
*CinePhotographer is a trademark of "RED DIGITAL CINEMA"

[MichaelHalsell]

Ketch, those LEICA SUMILUX-C Primes have your name written all it on it. Don't deny yourself. Go ahead an spank' that thang'.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Ketch, those LEICA SUMILUX-C Primes have your name written all it on it. Don't deny yourself. Go ahead an spank' that thang'.


LOL.. Yeah they do Michael, and in all honesty if a current (in Progress) agreement comes to light with Pier59, we shall have them ;~)

[Steve Das]

...Any way, if RED decides to make a RED PRO PRIME Set of equal specs of the LEICA SUMMILUX-C Primes they will have my money for a couple of sets immediately, if priced in the 10k per lens ;~)

Ketch you must be psychic..cause whole post reads my mind.

But if we both think this...then for sure others think it..as well as Red..
New smaller cameras...need new smaller/lighter lenses..otherwise
there is no advantage. If it is possible at that price..Red will do it.

[Mark Pedersen]

In over twenty years of Photography and Cinematography experiences, I have come across and used just about literally every lens ever Manufactured, or close to it;~). In photography I have come to love Hassy by Zeiss, Leica, Nikon and Canon glass, and in Cinema the Arii/Zeiss Master Primes have taken my heart from their very first appearance, then here come the Red PRO glass, and it was love all over again!!

As I'm awaiting delivery of the Epic-X S35, I find my self looking very careful on my decisions for Glass, as this will not only have to satisfy my Cinema needs but also my Photographic needs for still images. Even so I look so forward to when my Epic 645 will be released, for now I have to make good with the S35 Brain for Photography, especially since I have now officially sold every 35mm and MF Still camera and lenses.

With this comes the decision of the glass, while I was to purchase the new Leica S and their current MF S series Leica glass, I have decided to wait and see if the Epic-X S35 will do for me, RED has already announced a Canon and Nikon mounts for the Epic S35, and we hope to see also a Leica "M" and "R" mount, sorry but Hassy has really lost me when they dropped Zeiss. I dreamed of a Leica S mount on the Epic 645 as soon as I played with the "S" series glass!!

But now down to what this post is about.. RED vs. LEICA in Cine lenses.

I admit that I, like many am a lover of Shallow DOF and super fast lenses, spoiled by the 1.2's of Canon latest line up of "L" glass, so I did wished that the RED PRO PRIME lenses were all T*1.3 or T*1.4, but T*1.8 is not bad at all, however what I have wished even more, since.. well, EVER, is a set of lenses of equal dimension, length, width, and front lens diameter with screw in filter thread, just for when I needed it, and off course to be as light weight as possible, while retaining and incredible image quality.

Well here come the LEICA SUMMILUX-C Primes, which have now answered all my wishes, literally, off course Price was a bit of a surprise but no so much, I did wish for a 10k to 12k per lens top price, but instead we got 20k to 22k per lens ;~(.

If RED was to make all their RED PRO PRIMES in equal qualities of the LEICA's what would their price be? 10k? 12k? 15k? or would they also be in the same price range of 20k to 22k? Well, we just don't know, simply cause they have not announced such a thing or interest in doing so, leaving users to have to make a choice, of either get the RED PRO PRIMES now or wait in line for the LEICA SUMILUX-C Primes and pay FIVE times as much!!

RED PRO PRIMES really do offer the absolute best choice, IMO, at their price point and well above, in all their aspect, Image Quality, Construction, Size and weight, which is not too different from the ARRI/ZEISS MASTER PRIMES, and off course their Good Looks, but I would love to have them the same size, same front element Threaded Diameter and same weight, yet I do understand how much more expensive and complicated it is to make a lens of different Focal, at high speed, of the same compact size, so I take gladly what is offered, which is an "INCREDIBLE DEAL"!!

But I must say that playing with the Leica Summilux-C Primes makes me really want a set of them, just simply put, stunning design, and if current plans continue to go well, I might end up getting a set, really a Fantastic job done by the designers KUDOS!!

The choice to go Leica here, is well beyond what same might call the LEICA Lovers, or the I got Money and want Leica stereotyping, this is simply a choice of having the Absolute Best Designed Cine Lenses to Date, not comparing Image Quality here, but simply their Design!! This goes so far as in to make this the absolute most Practical Lens set to use PERIOD!! I'm sure that all of those that have found them selves carrying different size Threaded Filters, and or Bellow MB adapters and the list goes on, will agree with me on this Indisputable argument.. Just really wish their were Priced more reasonably, not that I don't understand the difference form Volume Manufacturing to Hand Made products, just that with RED's RedVolution, we had hoped other would follow in the great Example that GREAT Glass don't NEED to be so DAM Expensive!! Nevertheless I wish LEICA all the Best, and I know they will do Extremely well, even Better then Arri's and Cooke's line up IMO.

Any way, if RED decides to make a RED PRO PRIME Set of equal specs of the LEICA SUMMILUX-C Primes they will have my money for a couple of sets immediately, if priced in the 10k per lens ;~)

Ketch,

Have you looked at Zeiss Ultra Primes? T 1.9s, more compact and lighter than RPPs or MPs (half the weight), less expensive than Leicas, and from the 16mm up cover 5K.

http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html

Food for thought.

M

[Sven Seynaeve]

Ketch, I had already the same question following me for some time now;)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I was going to buy a set of Ultra Primes, but after receiving the RPP's I was happy. The only advantage the Ultras have over the RPP's is size and weight. Personally I prefer the look of the RPPs, but that's entirely subjective...

The Leicas look very inviting. I'll buy a set if I win the lottery or if I suddenly find $180K burning a hole in my pocket at the same time I'm looking for new glass. Honestly, I would buy a set if I felt there were enough rental demand here in Denver, but I really don't think there is to justify it. The Leicas are a lot more appealing to me than the Master Primes and yet I bet the rental demand will be lower. I know people in town with Masters and most don't rent because it's not worth their time or they have given up trying to rent because there's not enough of a market and/or the market is too cheap.

I love the RPP's, but there are some compromises made to reach the low price point -- larger size, heavier lenses, fewer marks... RED also depends on volume purchasing to get the cost down. I believe Leica could cut the price in half on the Summilux-C primes and sell 5 times as many sets. But that is not what Leica is about. Orders placed now won't ship for another 8 or 9 months. I'm figuring that they can only deliver so many sets in a year with their current production and quality control and they set prices according to that. They're not in it to mass-produce and ramp up production as RED does. If RED were to release a set of lenses on par with the new Leicas in terms of faster aperture, more compact, etc.. They will definitely be a lot more expensive than the current RPP's. I know RED could do it cheaper than Leica due to the volume production approach. But even that has limits. There comes a certain price point where people will not buy. For example, if the current RPP's were twice the price, they would still be worth every penny because of how they compare to other options on the market. However, at that price point, many owners would probably be forced to rent instead of buy. Or for guys like me who could still buy them, I would be more tempted by the Ultra Primes at that price point... Not because the Ultras are any better, but because I know I can rent them out a lot easier based on name recognition and probably ROI them faster. But with the RPP's at their current price and with their feature set, it's a no-brainer. They're priced low enough where I don't need to bother renting them out. It's cheaper for me to own the RPPs than to rent glass when I need it.

When it comes to the capabilities and the pricing of the RPP's, RED totally nailed it. I can't wait to see what RED does with the FF35 electronic lenses and upcoming medium format options.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Ketch,

go go go and order set of Leica Summilux-C lenses.

You are now in LA and it makes sense even if rentals like a Otto Nemenz International have 25 sets in order (Otto was one of the investors in LSC set development).

Also like a photographer you know well what perfect glass means for a job.

One more example of Leica still lenses on R1-MX:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/titanium_R694_05.jpg
Shot on R1-MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH @ f/2.8, ISO 1280, 25 fps, 1/50, AWB,
Light: LED light from a small key-chain pocket lamp, 60 cm distance from Titanium R to the lens.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/titanium_R694_07.jpg
Shot on R1-MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH @ f/2.8, ISO 1280, 25 fps, 1/50, WB:3200K,
Light: LED light from a small key-chain pocket lamp and neon tube lamp from back, 60 cm distance from Titanium R to the lens.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Glad to have put out something that was already on other Fellow Reduser's mind ;~)

The UP are nice lenses but absolutely not worth the price when compared to the RPP's, not even close to a consideration, however the MP's have always been in my mind do to the Incredible and impressive IQ thru out the entire set, and Design, as well as off course the very important Speed of T*1.3.

Again, serious considerations are going in on placing an order for the set, will see how things move along..

[MichaelHalsell]

Ketch, seriously, stop thinking about it. Go to your freezer and take out that crisp stack of $100 bills and place that deposit. When the lens arrive, invite over (say 1,000 people ie Redusers) to your crib to check them out. Oh yea, don't forget to make the lasagna.

You do the above, you will no trouble making new friends. You'll be on everybody's Facebook page. :smilewinkgrin:

[KETCH ROSSi]

Ketch, seriously, stop thinking about it. Go to your freezer and take out that crisp stack of $100 bills and place that deposit. When the lens arrive, invite over (say 1,000 people ie Redusers) to your crib to check them out. Oh yea, don't forget to make the lasagna.

You do the above, you will no trouble making new friends. You'll be on everybody's Facebook page. :smilewinkgrin:

LOL!! :iagree:

[Steve Das]

...When it comes to the capabilities and the pricing of the RPP's, RED totally nailed it. I can't wait to see what RED does with the FF35 electronic lenses and upcoming medium format options.

Yes..am as excited for the FF35 electronic zooms as the camera itself.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Yes..am as excited for the FF35 electronic zooms as the camera itself.

I will by pass the FF35 entirely and wait to move to the Epic 645 from my Epic-X S35, so I have to say that while I'm not exited for the FF system, I'm however extremely exited to see what RED pulls out as far as the MF glass, if not I will go with the new Leica "S" glass, if its supported.

[Mark Pedersen]

Glad to have put out something that was already on other Fellow Reduser's mind ;~)

The UP are nice lenses but absolutely not worth the price when compared to the RPP's, not even close to a consideration, however the MP's have always been in my mind do to the Incredible and impressive IQ thru out the entire set, and Design, as well as off course the very important Speed of T*1.3.

Again, serious considerations are going in on placing an order for the set, will see how things move along..

Maybe, but have you picked up a 25mm RPP and an UP and felt the diff in weight? Which would be more balanced on an Epic? Which would you rather hand hold? What about durability, consistent position of gears, how accurately and consistently they hit their focus relative to the scales?

A lot goes into the consideration in the long haul.

Granted, the Leicas are gorgeous. And faster. If you can afford them, do it :)

M

[KETCH ROSSi]

Maybe, but have you picked up a 25mm RPP and an UP and felt the diff in weight? Which would be more balanced on an Epic? Which would you rather hand hold? What about durability, consistent position of gears, how accurately and consistently they hit their focus relative to the scales?

A lot goes into the consideration in the long haul.

Granted, the Leicas are gorgeous. And faster. If you can afford them, do it :)

M

Again Mark, there is sure differences but for the price difference and what you get I would still get the RPP any day, and would only consider the MP, but not the UP.

Build on the RPP is great, and the markings can be re-done to match precisely either standard cine lenses such as the UP and or MP or for S3D work at a low cost, which will still put them miles away form the forbidden cost (to most) of the UP and MP.

The Leica Cine Primes bring a completely new set of additional attractive plusses to the market and to the Professional users in both field of cine and Stil work, and will make incredible partners with the Red Epic and Red Scarlet, no question, I'm seriously considering..

[roryhinds]

Why not start a list of people who would purchase the Leica's at a more reasonable price and make contact with there sales department or management.

Then they can see that if they lowered their price more artists could use their tools.
A blog or something online that gets the attention of the press would be great for this.

Lenses simply shouldn't cost the same amount as a house :-)

[OptiTek]

Lenses simply shouldn't cost the same amount as a house :-)
as long as there are people that pay more than for a house they will....:coolgleamA:

[KETCH ROSSi]

Why not start a list of people who would purchase the Leica's at a more reasonable price and make contact with there sales department or management.

Then they can see that if they lowered their price more artists could use their tools.
A blog or something online that gets the attention of the press would be great for this.

Lenses simply shouldn't cost the same amount as a house :-)

He he, I'm so with you on this Rory.. so with you.

[Mitch Gross]

Why not start a list of people who would purchase the Leica's at a more reasonable price and make contact with there sales department or management.

Then they can see that if they lowered their price more artists could use their tools.
A blog or something online that gets the attention of the press would be great for this.

Lenses simply shouldn't cost the same amount as a house :-)

Can we do this with Ferarris? Maybe space shuttles while we're at it.

I think you have unrealistic expectations.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Can we do this with Ferarris? Maybe space shuttles while we're at it.

I think you have unrealistic expectations.

Mitch, even so I have to say that you are right, there is always the possibility for a deal when a group buy is offered, in this case off course I don't think it would work, as we would need many sets, but I can guarantee you that Otto did not pay full price for the 25 sets, and neither would we if we could put together an order of several sets, this I already know.

Btw, not Space Shuttles, a bit too far out of a comparisons here, sorry ;~), but Ferrari did and continues to do Group discounts were you can be a guess at Maranello, Italy and have your vehicles personalized.

[roryhinds]

Ferarris vs Glass... hmmm strange comparison but I get your point, I just don't agree with it. Flashy fast cars for red carpet posing attention seekers is hardly the same as tools for artists.

Sure my expectation of "reasonable" cost glass @ T1.3 in a small form factor is unrealistic at present... but so was a 4k digital 35mm camera @ $20k a few years back... surely glass will have to appear at price points and features that complement the camera they are being used on.

If Leica would sell a set of 5 lenses for $40k - $50k that would still send the message that they are an expensive tool for professionals and they would still restrict mass production on a large scale.

What are they trying to say with their ultra high price point?

[Sanjin Jukic]

129.000,00 Euro is the last price from yesterday's Band Pro email offer to me (meter scales).

Leica - Set of 8 Leica 4K

Set Leica Summilux-C™ 4K Lenses T1.4.

Focal Length 18mm, 21mm, 25mm, 35mm, 40mm, 50mm, 75mm,100mm.

Band Pro is currently accepting a refundable deposits of 5% to reserve a set of Leica lenses.

Take it or leave it!

[Steve Das]

129,000 Euro = $159,752.322

[David Rasberry]

Modestly priced at just under $20k per lens. Probably not much economy of scale on volume with these as they would be hand made anyway.

[KETCH ROSSi]

129.000,00 Euro is the last price from yesterday's Band Pro email offer to me (meter scales).

Leica - Set of 8 Leica 4K

Set Leica Summilux-C™ 4K Lenses T1.4.

Focal Length 18mm, 21mm, 25mm, 35mm, 40mm, 50mm, 75mm,100mm.

Band Pro is currently accepting a refundable deposits of 5% to reserve a set of Leica lenses.

Take it or leave it!

Every day that passes I'm closer to do the crazy thing Sanjin, and you are not helping, ha ha.

5% down is very reasonable, but the extreme long wait is unfortunate ;~(.

Fact is that I really never have been presented with such a full set of lenses with so many answered wishes, again Fantastic Job on Leica's part to move forward with this project and to those evolved as well as Band Pro.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Every day that passes I'm closer to do the crazy thing Sanjin, and you are not helping, ha ha.

5% down is very reasonable, but the extreme long wait is unfortunate ;~(.

Fact is that I really never have been presented with such a full set of lenses with so many answered wishes, again Fantastic Job on Leica's part to move forward with this project and to those evolved as well as Band Pro.

Ketch,

you can' make mistake,

Delivery is early 2011 if you reserve them during next week.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Ketch,

you can' make mistake,

Delivery is early 2011 if you reserve them during next week.

Yeah I know Sanjin, if any one here shares the same passion and respect for Leica glass, that is me, so I think I will do it !!

Even so I',m still contemplating the Leica S, or at list a way of mounting the S glass on Canon 1Ds IV and Red, he he.

[Curran Giddens]

What about getting just a few lenses to start with instead of the entire set. Will they sell them individually?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Ketch, Leica S glas is a gorgeous...


Curran, they do not sell individual lenses, so choose a set or nothing...

[roryhinds]

I don't know but if they started receiving a load of intelligent letters stating our plead to easy back on the greed, I mean come on they have brand identity and they can still be expensive but how much money to they really have to make?

Very few people are in the position to be able to guarantee being about to get the ROI out of such a purchase... so mainly large rental houses, studios and large production companies...

Not trying to whine, but I know it sounds like I am... I just hate it when great tools are out of reach, and I really don't mind working hard for my tools of the trade... yes I know just have to get better at what I do :-)

If RED hadn't stepped up... well where would we be now?

[Jon B.]

Love my RPPs

[PaulClements]

With the amount of digital manipulation that goes into each and every movie from the highest budget blockbuster to the greenest of indie features the choice of lens to use is vastly overated these days.

My biggest worry with such lenses is what happens in a couple of years time when people are shooting on Epic 645's and a new line of larger lenses comes out to cater for them? Of which you can basically guarantee Red will have some and probably at about $40k. If large format digital cinematography becomes the norm in the future (Which I believe it will given this is truly where digital has an edge over film in terms of cost) then these lenses suddenly have a shorter shelf life. I also think that the advances we're seeing year to year with sensor technology means that having faster lenses will be less and less of an issue. So to sell their lenses as future proof is a little misleading if you ask me.

I'm sure they're great lenses, don't get me wrong. I just think that Leica could've sold hundreds maybe even thousands of sets if they'd priced it in line with the Alexa and Epic clients all around the world. Instead I'd guestimate they'll sell maybe 100 sets over the next 2 to 3 years?

The plain and simple fact of the matter is they do nothing new. They might improve slightly upon the best that's available but I don't imagine people being particularly bothered if they have Leica, Master Primes or Cooke S5's. Their business model is simply not destructive enough to the current market to make any kind of large scale impact and so the introduction of such a set seems kind of pointless to me.

Paul

[D Fuller]

Ever read Aesop's Fables? The one about The Fox and the Grapes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes)?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Leica Summilux-C are not more expensive than other high speed sets like a MP, Cooke i/5 or high-end zooms from Angenieux or Fuji.

Also to know more about those lenses read at

Leica Cine Lens Saga, pages 32-37, Film & Digital Times issue 32-33 >>> (http://www.fdtimes.com/index.html)

[PaulClements]

Ever read Aesop's Fables? The one about The Fox and the Grapes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes)?
Lol, yeah but unlike the fox I genuinely don't want a set of these lenses. Also I didn't say the lenses weren't good. Just that from a business point of view I don't get entering into a saturated cottage industry market without having a draw that pushes aside your competitors. And frankly being a bit smaller and lighter isn't a draw that sets them aside completely. It's more of a bonus. Look at the facts. There is big money to be made making equipment for this industry if you understand how it has changed in recent years. It has changed to cater for individuals who want to own and shoot their own stuff. Red has basically created this and even companies such as Arri are responding with a cheaper more affordable camera in the Alexa. The point I was simply trying to make was that if Leica truly understood the current market they would've priced more aggressively in order to corner it. Not simply be another player.


Leica Summilux-C are not more expensive than other high speed sets like a MP, Cooke i/5 or high-end zooms from Angenieux or Fuji.

Also to know more about those lenses read at

Leica Cine Lens Saga, pages 32-37, Film & Digital Times issue 32-33 >>> (http://www.fdtimes.com/index.html)
Fair enough point Sanjin. See above though. I'm not really referring to their price with regards to other products, merely their lack of competitive ambition in a small market.

Paul

[KETCH ROSSi]

He he, the old Fox ;~)

Well, the lenses are not cheap, that is a fact, but neither are the other big brothers offerings, this is an investment and a serious one at that, which no one should do unless they have both the serious capital and most of all the need, and or possibility to put them at work, were the RPP's are still not widely accepted.

But as said over and over, I love the RPP's!! They are the absolute best value and High quality glass in the range and well above!

[D Fuller]

The point I was simply trying to make was that if Leica truly understood the current market they would've priced more aggressively in order to corner it. Not simply be another player. ...

... I'm not really referring to their price with regards to other products, merely their lack of competitive ambition in a small market.

Paul

But isn't that a bit like saying that no one should produce hand-made furniture because there's a boatload of money to be made by mass-producing it as cheaply as possible in China?

I think Leica understands their place in the market very well. Mass-market is just not what the Leica brand is about. It's about uncompromising quality, usability, etc. Just look at their stills cameras, that's always been their market position.

And they're not betting the company on the Cine Primes, they're enhancing the brand. I'm fairly certain that Leica will make more money on its sale of lenses to Panasonic for their prosumer cameras than they ever will on the Cine Primes. But it's the reputation of products like the Cine Primes that make those licensing deals attractive to Panasonic et al.

[Gustavo Penna]

In over twenty years of Photography and Cinematography experiences, I have come across and used just about literally every lens ever Manufactured, or close to it;~). In photography I have come to love Hassy by Zeiss, Leica, Nikon and Canon glass, and in Cinema the Arii/Zeiss Master Primes have taken my heart from their very first appearance, then here come the Red PRO glass, and it was love all over again!!

As I'm awaiting delivery of the Epic-X S35, I find my self looking very careful on my decisions for Glass, as this will not only have to satisfy my Cinema needs but also my Photographic needs for still images. Even so I look so forward to when my Epic 645 will be released, for now I have to make good with the S35 Brain for Photography, especially since I have now officially sold every 35mm and MF Still camera and lenses.

With this comes the decision of the glass, while I was to purchase the new Leica S and their current MF S series Leica glass, I have decided to wait and see if the Epic-X S35 will do for me, RED has already announced a Canon and Nikon mounts for the Epic S35, and we hope to see also a Leica "M" and "R" mount, sorry but Hassy has really lost me when they dropped Zeiss. I dreamed of a Leica S mount on the Epic 645 as soon as I played with the "S" series glass!!

But now down to what this post is about.. RED vs. LEICA in Cine lenses.

I admit that I, like many am a lover of Shallow DOF and super fast lenses, spoiled by the 1.2's of Canon latest line up of "L" glass, so I did wished that the RED PRO PRIME lenses were all T*1.3 or T*1.4, but T*1.8 is not bad at all, however what I have wished even more, since.. well, EVER, is a set of lenses of equal dimension, length, width, and front lens diameter with screw in filter thread, just for when I needed it, and off course to be as light weight as possible, while retaining and incredible image quality.

Well here come the LEICA SUMMILUX-C Primes, which have now answered all my wishes, literally, off course Price was a bit of a surprise but no so much, I did wish for a 10k to 12k per lens top price, but instead we got 20k to 22k per lens ;~(.

If RED was to make all their RED PRO PRIMES in equal qualities of the LEICA's what would their price be? 10k? 12k? 15k? or would they also be in the same price range of 20k to 22k? Well, we just don't know, simply cause they have not announced such a thing or interest in doing so, leaving users to have to make a choice, of either get the RED PRO PRIMES now or wait in line for the LEICA SUMILUX-C Primes and pay FIVE times as much!!

RED PRO PRIMES really do offer the absolute best choice, IMO, at their price point and well above, in all their aspect, Image Quality, Construction, Size and weight, which is not too different from the ARRI/ZEISS MASTER PRIMES, and off course their Good Looks, but I would love to have them the same size, same front element Threaded Diameter and same weight, yet I do understand how much more expensive and complicated it is to make a lens of different Focal, at high speed, of the same compact size, so I take gladly what is offered, which is an "INCREDIBLE DEAL"!!

But I must say that playing with the Leica Summilux-C Primes makes me really want a set of them, just simply put, stunning design, and if current plans continue to go well, I might end up getting a set, really a Fantastic job done by the designers KUDOS!!

The choice to go Leica here, is well beyond what same might call the LEICA Lovers, or the I got Money and want Leica stereotyping, this is simply a choice of having the Absolute Best Designed Cine Lenses to Date, not comparing Image Quality here, but simply their Design!! This goes so far as in to make this the absolute most Practical Lens set to use PERIOD!! I'm sure that all of those that have found them selves carrying different size Threaded Filters, and or Bellow MB adapters and the list goes on, will agree with me on this Indisputable argument.. Just really wish their were Priced more reasonably, not that I don't understand the difference form Volume Manufacturing to Hand Made products, just that with RED's RedVolution, we had hoped other would follow in the great Example that GREAT Glass don't NEED to be so DAM Expensive!! Nevertheless I wish LEICA all the Best, and I know they will do Extremely well, even Better then Arri's and Cooke's line up IMO.

Any way, if RED decides to make a RED PRO PRIME Set of equal specs of the LEICA SUMMILUX-C Primes they will have my money for a couple of sets immediately, if priced in the 10k per lens ;~)

Con Tutto il rispetto che si meritano.
Non voglio farvi sentire male i vostri commenti senza senso. Ma PER FAVORE pensarci.

Everything i read of your nonsense tipping doesn't even deserve the smallest discussion.
Just one thing people. please think twice about posting when you are high.:sifone:
by the way here is one proof of what drugs can do. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=51461951

[Steve Das]

???...

[KETCH ROSSi]

With ALL due respect sir.
Everything i read of your nonsense tipping doesn't even deserve the smallest discussion.
Just one thing people. please think twice about posting when you are high.:sifone:
by the way here is one proof of what drugs can do. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=51461951

Well, every one here knows very well that Im heavily Drugged on a daily basis, if I want to continue on walking amongst the leaving, so no surprise here :001_tt2:

[Gustavo Penna]

Well, every one here knows very well that Im heavily Drugged on a daily basis, if I want to continue on walking amongst the leaving, so no surprise here :001_tt2:

Well that really explains it all.. I kind of feel you on it... its a tough world. Keep shooting! keep rocking !

Buona Domenica!

[KETCH ROSSi]

Well that really explains it all.. I kind of feel you on it... its a tough world. Keep shooting! keep rocking !

Buona Domenica!

He he, no worries Gustavo, and also much appreciate the PM, I'm always good, and never take anything offensive, hence the Smiling tung..

I know that some times.. okay most of the times, I make no sense on my way of writing things , but I know what I mean, and those that know me well, know it as well, as they know how to enterprete my thoughts or the way I put them in to words.

I write out of my Passions and express my mind, the above post is to express my opinion and liking of both sets of lenses nothing else, and I did so out of seen so many other threads not pointing out what was important to me and few of the reasons why I love the new Leica C lenses, but also why I absolutely also Love the RPP's.



Grazie and Buona Domenica anche a Te Gustavo.

[PaulClements]

But isn't that a bit like saying that no one should produce hand-made furniture because there's a boatload of money to be made by mass-producing it as cheaply as possible in China?
No I don't think so. I know someone who started a handmade furniture store near to where I live. His stuff isn't cheap but it's vastly different to everything else around. They now have 5 or 6 shops across the country because of the unique nature of the furniture. The Leica lenses by contrast aren't really that unique. At the end of the day side by side with MP's or S5's there won't be a vast difference I'm sure.

I'm merely pointing out that they're entering into a market that has in the last couple of years changed very dramatically and they had a chance to enter that market and become a leader by pricing aggressively compared to their competitors. I'm not suggesting they should've priced it in line with the RPP's. More like $10k a lens I'd imagine. I don't see how this would tarnish the Leica name as being cheap because that's still a hefty enough price tag, but one many professionals would've paid in order to own.

Instead they have opted for a pricetag that is very much of the old school of thinking. Mainly that rental companies will be their chief purchaser, and that most professionals wishing to use them on a regular basis will do so by renting them. This is fine. But it's not very progressive thinking. This is what I'm getting at.

Your points about the Panasonic cameras and brand position are of course worthy ones. But I don't believe that having a five lens set for $50k would've harmed either of them.

Paul

[Sanjin Jukic]

Paul,

sorry but you still don't getting it about Leicas.

Btw, lightweight and lens dimensions are both on Leicas side.

Also I'm 100% sure that you'll get less a lens lateral aberrations with Leicas than with MPs.

That makes a huge difference.

And the last is that you'll get Leica Look that made Panavision Primo L series to one of the best sets ever made for cinema.

Leica Summilux-C will do probably the same and also you can buy them but Primo lenses not.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

With the amount of digital manipulation that goes into each and every movie from the highest budget blockbuster to the greenest of indie features the choice of lens to use is vastly overated these days.

My biggest worry with such lenses is what happens in a couple of years time when people are shooting on Epic 645's and a new line of larger lenses comes out to cater for them? Of which you can basically guarantee Red will have some and probably at about $40k. If large format digital cinematography becomes the norm in the future (Which I believe it will given this is truly where digital has an edge over film in terms of cost)l

ill bet my life that says full frame shooting will NOT be the norm...

too many people/rental houses heavily invested in current lensing.. some may cover full frame.. others wont

full frame will be a specialty.. not the norm

[Zakaree Sandberg]

If RED hadn't stepped up... well where would we be now?

shooting through lens adapters and a hpx

[Sanjin Jukic]

shooting through lens adapters and a hpx

That's true.

[Matthias Martin]

I will by pass the FF35 entirely and wait to move to the Epic 645 from my Epic-X S35, so I have to say that while I'm not exited for the FF system, I'm however extremely exited to see what RED pulls out as far as the MF glass, if not I will go with the new Leica "S" glass, if its supported.

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/11/leica-s2-review-test-shooting-in.html
One of my first questions for Peter related to the future of the S System. Was Leica planning on a larger sensor down the road and would the lenses accommodate such a sensor? The answer was that no, the Leica Pro Format of 30x45mm was the limit, as the lenses only have an image circle of 54mm.

So, no S-glass on the Epic645 - or only windowed acquisition.
Bummer, because the sample images in that article are breathtaking, no hint at CA or unsharpness in the outmost corners of the image.

[KETCH ROSSi]

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/11/leica-s2-review-test-shooting-in.html
One of my first questions for Peter related to the future of the S System. Was Leica planning on a larger sensor down the road and would the lenses accommodate such a sensor? The answer was that no, the Leica Pro Format of 30x45mm was the limit, as the lenses only have an image circle of 54mm.

So, no S-glass on the Epic645 - or only windowed acquisition.
Bummer, because the sample images in that article are breathtaking, no hint at CA or unsharpness in the outmost corners of the image.

Yeah actually that was a bummer, but I still will/can make good use of them in the scaled window, but I truly hope that by then RED will surprise us again with a stellar Lens Set fro the MF Sensor.

[Frank Martin]

What about the Leica .9 Noxalux . I heard the 50mm was available. Has anyone seen these yet?

[Mark Andersen]

I will by pass the FF35 entirely and wait to move to the Epic 645 from my Epic-X S35, so I have to say that while I'm not exited for the FF system, I'm however extremely exited to see what RED pulls out as far as the MF glass, if not I will go with the new Leica "S" glass, if its supported.

My thoughts exactly. I want the 645 next. The FF doesn't interest me.

[Al Hill]

Hey,

So Ketch, We are all wondering the same thing: Did you get the Leica Summilux-Cs?

Alan

[KETCH ROSSi]

Hey,

So Ketch, We are all wondering the same thing: Did you get the Leica Summilux-Cs?

Alan

YES, I did... ;)

Now just awaiting their arrival... ;)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

When do you expect them to arrive, you know, in case I want to mug the delivery guy... ,-)

Cheers - #19

[Patrick Grossien]

YES, I did... ;)

Now just awaiting their arrival... ;)

Oh. Hehe so this answers my question.... Looking forward to see your footage !

Awesome decision, Ketch! Congrats on that.. Any delivery estimate ? :)