Avid post workflow. What needs to be done?

[sbaechler]

Hi

I'm guessing that we won't have native Redcode RAW support for at least another year on Avid so for now we would have to go the offline route. I laid out a workflow for a feature lenght movie that will be mastered in HDCAM SR. Parts in red are not clear or possible yet.

On the set:

Shoot 4K Redcode RAW
Download the material to a RAID on the set.
Batch Convert the footage to an avid-readable format over night. With some reference file (FlexFile, XML, whatever). Using the gamma/color settings from the camera.
Deliver RAW dailies and converted footage to editor


In the editing room

Editor/assistant copies/imports the footage with matchback option and syncs the dailies.
Edit.
Picture Lock.
Export uncompressed 4K or Raw files of clips that need compositing.
Consolidate original media and get everything ready for online at a post house.
Use Red Pull List to create 10-bit 4:4:4 1080p footage.


At the post house

Copy the footage to their system
Assemble everything on Avid DS or Inferno
Color grade using a DaVinci or Poogle 2K
Add titles
Output to a HDCAM SR master and whatever needed.


I chose to color grade on a DaVinci instead on the RedCine because in a telecine suite I have an experienced colorist grading footage on an 80'000$ CRT-monitor.
As far as I know there is no monitoring output for RedCine yet. I wouldn't want to grade on a LCD monitor even if it was calibrated.

Simon

[Stephen Gentle]

I chose to color grade on a DaVinci instead on the RedCine because in a telecine suite I have an experienced colorist grading footage on an 80'000$ CRT-monitor.
As far as I know there is no monitoring output for RedCine yet. I wouldn't want to grade on a LCD monitor even if it was calibrated.

RedCine is not a grading package - all it can do is basic curves, exposure, iso etc. correction.

[Sean]

You might find this a bit interesting, from another thread in the Avid Workflow section, including some insight from an Avid guru:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4493

My impression is "match back" to original 4K files is not yet so easy until meta-data is included in the RedCine DNxHD files. But you might know another process that would allow for this match-back step.

[Jeremy Torrie]

I guess we can thank Panasonic for their (now obsolete?) innovation in the P2 card technology...it forced all NLE's including Avid to adopt an MXF workflow which included metadata. So while I am sure it will be perhaps NAB before we see Red files having reliable integration (the new Beta release is not on the radar until November), I know they are aware of Red and the 4,000 users who will otherwise be going to another platform if they don't move quickly.

[Sean]

Surely over 4000 users...because there's every single renter of a Red Camera, as well as the owners of Reds themselves. 10,000 distinct Red projects in the first year? More? That's a lot of NLEs. Move fast or die.

[Chris Swartz]

Editing in the Avid should be no problem. We just have to make sure that when converting the Redcode Raw to DNxHD that the metadata gets copied as well. If that happens then you can just do an edl and go to whatever finishing system you want. I assume Scratch will be the easiest since it handles the Redcode natively. I'm hoping to try converting Redcode out of Redcine and into Avid within the next couple of weeks. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Chris

[Sean]

Apparently there is no way to copy that metadata in DNxHD yet.

[Jeremy Torrie]

Aside from metadata, what about timecode? Last time I checked with QT it did not generate or embed the same timecode from the source.

[Rob Lohman]

Aside from metadata, what about timecode? Last time I checked with QT it did not generate or embed the same timecode from the source.

Not sure I'm following your question here. QT files can have timecode tracks, no problem. Our QT files have the proper timecode in them.

[Lucas Wilson]

Not sure I'm following your question here. QT files can have timecode tracks, no problem. Our QT files have the proper timecode in them.

Rob,

Avid systems cannot read the timecode track in Quicktime files.

Lucas

[Rob Lohman]

Ah... I didn't know that, thanks

[Patrick Tresch]

RED folks and assimilate, any news about REDCODE integration into AVID editing station?

It seams that you folks are working on this (see below)?

Thanks

Pat





De: Matthew Allard <matthew_all...@avid.com>
Data: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:11:03 -0400
Local: Qua 29 ago 2007 14:11
Assunto: Re: RED - 4k

We are working with the folks at Red and Assimilate (the makers of the Red
Cine application) to support workflows between Avid and the Red camera.

Red is not currently licensing its REDCODE RAW format to any other vendors
though we have made that request to them so we can build better integration
between Red and our products.


Regards,


Matt
--
Matthew Allard
Director of Product Management
Avid Technology, Inc.
Avid Technology Park
1925 Andover Street
Tewksbury, MA 01876
Matthew_All...@avid.com
tel: 978-640-3416
fax: 978-851-7952
mobile: 603-502-0616




De: "Lucas Wilson" <lucas.wil...@gmail.com>
Data: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:27:59 -0700
Local: Qua 29 ago 2007 15:27
Assunto: Re: RED - 4k


::: waves to Matt :::


Just want to be clear about something...


REDCINE is a free application that ships with the RED camera as an aid in
workflow for the camera. We worked with RED on the project and have been
active with RED for quite awhile. But REDCINE is a RED product, and while we
did have a hand in it, we are not "the makers" of the application.


REDCODE RAW is natively supported on an upcoming release of FCP and
currently on SCRATCH. This was shown publicly at this past NAB, and we will
also be showing SCRATCH support for REDCODE at IBC.


For anybody that wants to learn more about RED and participate in the
community, the best place is probably www.reduser.net. It's an unapologetic
fanboy site, but there's a lot of good information there, and it is the de
facto place where RED talks about stuff. Jim Jannard and other people at RED
are frequent participants and contributors.


Cheers,


Lucas Wilson
--------------------
Director of Widgets and Bolts
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
lucas AT assimilateinc.com

[Chris Swartz]

Ok, so now that we've clarified that QT import into Avid will not keep timecode. How are we to accomplish this task? Export DPX out of RedAlert and then import into Avid? Would that work and keep the relevant info?

Chris

[dylancarter]

Ok, so now that we've clarified that QT import into Avid will not keep timecode. How are we to accomplish this task? Export DPX out of RedAlert and then import into Avid? Would that work and keep the relevant info?

Chris

Does Avid Support .dpx files?

An expensive solution, but one that emulates current film workflows the best, is to use scratch to layoff HD dailies (okay - 1k uprezzed to HD). You then use those dailies for the edit, and then come back and hand export the the .dpx files you need from your scratch timeline - making sure that you keep the record timecode from the scratch as the new .dpx TC. You can then online using those files and an edl out of the AVID.

There are of course a million variation on this plan. If you have the time an bandwidth, you could export full 2k .dpx extractions of everything, then make true HD 4:4:4 downcoverts of the .dpx files - then you could master from tape, or the 2k files... but for a feature, that would be a lot of storage :)

- Dylan

[Patrick Tresch]

Does Avid Support .dpx files?


- Dylan

Yes. Avid does. DS nitris handles 2k dpx in Real Time (since version7.6/HP8400) and Realtime 4k dpx with 2k proxies.:ninja:

Pat

[dylancarter]

Yes. Avid does. DS nitris handles 2k dpx in Real Time (since version7.6/HP8400) and Realtime 4k dpx with 2k proxies.:ninja:

Pat

Thanks for the info - what about Media / Film Composer though. Will it import a 2k and down rez to SD/HD on import?

[Lucas Wilson]

Yes. Avid does. DS nitris handles 2k dpx in Real Time (since version7.6/HP8400) and Realtime 4k dpx with 2k proxies.:ninja:

Pat

With no 3D LUT support... and to layoff to video requires an import and render.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[laguun]

Yes. Avid does. DS nitris handles 2k dpx in Real Time (since version7.6/HP8400) and Realtime 4k dpx with 2k proxies.:ninja:

Pat

yeah, and in DS nitris you can edit and output later on.
as in dvs clipster. or chrome. or mystika. or etc.
impossible with fcp/scratch.

[Lucas Wilson]

yeah, and in DS nitris you can edit and output later on.
as in dvs clipster. or chrome. or mystika. or etc.
impossible with fcp/scratch.

huh? Are you talking about outputting to video? files? This makes no sense...

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Bruce Allen]

I totally with the above posters that Avid needs to implement timecode import from Quicktime files ASAP. Native red editing would be great, but just having timecode / metadata import abilities would get us started.

Otherwise, it's flex files, right?

Lucas, would you care to walk us through the process of finishing a Red project on a Scratch from Avid when you have time (haha ;)... also any hints on what the process of generating a Red Pull List from an Avid edit will be like? Do we just send out an EDL to a little RPL converter program?



At the post house

Copy the footage to their system
Assemble everything on Avid DS or Inferno
Color grade using a DaVinci or Poogle 2K
Add titles
Output to a HDCAM SR master and whatever needed.



Sbaechler, a couple friendly niggling suggestions for the Assembly part of your list:

1. If you're going with discreet for finishing and doing something long-form, you wouldn't want to assemble in an Inferno. I'd think you'd want some mix of Fire / Smoke / Lustre for that, with Inferno being used to tweak certain shots only.

2. You could also finish on a Quantel, or of course Scratch (which so far has a head start on everyone else at dealing with Red files natively).

3. If you were really strapped for cash you maybe find decent "one-light" settings using RedCine and then finish on a Media Composer Adrenaline at DNxHD res, output to tape and do an old-school tape to tape grade? At my old job we did that for trailers all of the time and the quality was good enough if it played in a small theatre.

4. Similar to the Adrenaline option, couldn't you also assemble / finish using FCP (you would want to go out of FCP for color correction though, of course)?

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Mark L. Pederson]

We have a short shot on Red cutting Avid right now.

Editor requested Avid codec QT's with TC burn-in and his assistant enters the timecode for each shot after Avid import (sounds fun huh?)

I may be nuts, but it just can't be that much code to extract that meta data - maybe Avid laid off the one guy that knows how to code that in the last round of layoffs -

You can also use EDGE CODE by importing 1K Tiff's into the Avid - but again, a dirty hack - not a workflow -

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the dark horse from Adobe is gonna is gonna take on more market share than people think - and Avid is going to loose more than people think ...

[Bruce Allen]

We have a short shot on Red cutting Avid right now.

Editor requested Avid codec QT's with TC burn-in and his assistant enters the timecode for each shot after Avid import (sounds fun huh?)

I did that once for a music video shot on HDV before any editing package supported it. Suck festival



I may be nuts, but it just can't be that much code to extract that meta data - maybe Avid laid off the one guy that knows how to code that in the last round of layoffs -

Bwahaha!

Actually from poking around the Avid forums, I think it might be possible to export DPX files from RedCine, then go into this program:
http://www.metaglue.com/website/mxfactory.php
Which can create Avid MXF files with metadata intact.

Has anyone tried this or know if they support making nice DNxHD 36 offlines with it yet?



I've said it before and I'll say it again - the dark horse from Adobe is gonna is gonna take on more market share than people think - and Avid is going to loose more than people think ...

It'd be nice if it became a 3-horse race... new Premiere is a ton better than old Premiere, agreed.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Kevin Halverson]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the dark horse from Adobe is gonna is gonna take on more market share than people think - and Avid is going to loose more than people think ...

I couldn't agree more. CS3 hits a price and performance point that is very appealing. Its cross platform capabilities and integration across multiple applications is very impressive.

[Sean]

We have a short shot on Red cutting Avid right now.

Editor requested Avid codec QT's with TC burn-in and his assistant enters the timecode for each shot after Avid import (sounds fun huh?).

I'm currently involved in a project that is going Red>Avid using QT files with burned in timecode too. But entering the timecode on digitally imported files in Avid is a trick in and of itself. It seems to involve importing the digital file, writing down the timecode, unlinking from original media (so if you haven't written it down, the burned timecode is no longer visible), assigning a "source" (e.g., "ImaginaryTape1") to the file, then manually adjusting timecode and re-batch importing the original file. Ugh. That can't be worth it. A paper EDL list based on the final edit and burned in timecode seems more practical at the moment.

The dpx route using that software Bruce mentions sounds promising!

[Bruce Allen]

If someone doesn't fix this soon, I have another idea: write a program that you feed your finished offline to and which reads in the timecode burn via OCR and writes out an EDL ;)

Shouldn't be that hard, actually... or alternately it could automate the steps Sean has outlined.

Actually, didn't Premiere use to do this?

Anyone know of good programmable macro software that plays nicely with Avid on both Mac and PC? At the very least someone could write a macro to automate Sean's process. Even without OCR, it could show the assistant a clip, the assistant types in the timecode, then it shows the next clip, assistant types in timecode, and when you're done it does the steps required to modify the timecode, re-import etc. Or you could just read the TC info from the QT file of course...

I am not volunteering for this though because I know the second I write this, Avid will announce that they've fixed this issue.

Offhollywood, your edge code idea is really funny and great.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Mark L. Pederson]

If someone doesn't fix this soon, I have another idea: write a program that you feed your finished offline to and which reads in the timecode burn via OCR and writes out an EDL ;)

Shouldn't be that hard, actually... or alternately it could automate the steps Sean has outlined.

Actually, didn't Premiere use to do this?

Anyone know of good programmable macro software that plays nicely with Avid on both Mac and PC? At the very least someone could write a macro to automate Sean's process. Even without OCR, it could show the assistant a clip, the assistant types in the timecode, then it shows the next clip, assistant types in timecode, and when you're done it does the steps required to modify the timecode, re-import etc. Or you could just read the TC info from the QT file of course...

I am not volunteering for this though because I know the second I write this, Avid will announce that they've fixed this issue.

Offhollywood, your edge code idea is really funny and great.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Bruce, I thought of that -

and our "mad scientist" and director of operations Pliny almost enjoys finding workflow hacks that can even make even the boys at Apple scratch their heads - but at some point you need to just be practical - hacking and hacking to make a workflow vs. using another application that just ... has the right workflow -

[Mark L. Pederson]

I couldn't agree more. CS3 hits a price and performance point that is very appealing. Its cross platform capabilities and integration across multiple applications is very impressive.
They are writing the book on integration. And show me one pro workstation that does not have PS and AE on it.

[Sean]

Integration with AE is the most persuasive selling feature for Premiere I can think of (to say nothing of Photoshop and Audition). You get the power and economy of non-proprietary PC hardware too.

But I digress. As for the Avid workflow (and I still love Avid for myriad other reasons), I'm not sure that the steps I mention above for jamming timecode are the ONLY way to do it. It just seems to be the only way I've figured with digitally imported files. I'd love to hear if there's an easier way. But my own experimentation suggests there is not.

If Bruce's fantasy macro/software could read timecode metadata from the original QuickTime file, then you would never need to read the timecode burn-in.

[MichaelP]

Right now the workflow will be through REDCINE, At this time I am not seeing timecode from REDCINE in the QT files. So it still comes down to metadata. There is a timecode in the DPX files, so one could always export DPX from REDCINE then transcode again to Avid DNxHD. The issue is time and efficiencies in the workflow and minimizing the number of steps from A to B and C, etc. The quickest of course would be for RED to license the RAW file to more than just Apple and Assimilate. But for now, the workflow is via REDCINE. Lucas can comment as to when that is final and will include metadata export in QT and as a file to be used via ALE.

Michael

[Bruce Allen]

Agreed, this is kinda OT... but here it is! Premiere 4.0 OCR import of timecode from window burn ;)

http://www.roseavenue.com/premiere/roughcut.html

Otherwise, do Red have all of their outputs working? Couldn't you also digitize from the camera? It has timecode out, right? Also a ghetto hack I admit...

Surely if Red has a front page mention of Television Series using Red coming soon and that quote from Rodney Charters of 24 fame, you KNOW that there's an elegant Avid workflow around the corner (unless Avid is very, very stupid)... I think that'll happen before there's an elegant FCP workflow for big TV shows anyway ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Sean]

Right now the workflow will be through REDCINE, At this time I am not seeing timecode from REDCINE in the QT files. So it still comes down to metadata. There is a timecode in the DPX files, so one could always export DPX from REDCINE then transcode again to Avid DNxHD. The issue is time and efficiencies in the workflow and minimizing the number of steps from A to B and C, etc. The quickest of course would be for RED to license the RAW file to more than just Apple and Assimilate. But for now, the workflow is via REDCINE. Lucas can comment as to when that is final and will include metadata export in QT and as a file to be used via ALE.

Michael

What would you use to transcode DPX to Avid DNxHD? I'm thinking Avid does this transcode automatically on import of DPX into Avid (if you select that in your import setting). This sounds totally reasonable to me...except for the long anticipated render times out of RedCine into a DPX file format.

[MichaelP]

Media Composer does not support direct import of DPX files. Currently that can be done via MetaGlue's Mxfactory to create Avid media. Avid is working on MetaFuze that would take DPX, TIFF, QT, and other file formats and create MXF wrapped DNxHD or SD type media. That is still under development and is only being shown as a technology demo as things are subject to change.

Michael

[Sean]

Hey, MetaFuze sounds just like what the doctor ordered. Cool.

[Dylan Reeve]

While reading this thread I've thought of an option that seems like it could work..

The big problem at the moment is that Avid won't read timecode data from a Quicktime file it imports. So clips have to be manually reset.

However I think it should be possible to create a .avb Bin file that contains the necessary clip information, and a reference to the Quicktime file. All that would be required then would be to 'Batch Import' the clips to bring them online.

But, I have no idea how open or well documented the AVB file format is. However the bin can clearly contain all the information required, so it should be possible to create it somehow.

The basic AVB file can be created with Avid MediaLog, but the most useful part (the defined relation to the QT file) would not be able to be created that way. Similarly a simply Avid ALE file can be created that would contain the start/end timecode. But still no relation to the Quicktime source.

If that step, to provide the relation to the Quicktime source, can be made, then that would provide a usable workflow, I think.

[MichaelP]

You cannot create a .avb outside the application - once metadata is available as a file then there will be a workflow.

Michael

[Terry Wester]

You cannot create a .avb outside the application - once metadata is available as a file then there will be a workflow.

Michael


Michal,

Thank you for your contribution to this thread!
You seem to be very knowable on what the Avid can, and can't do, so I ask you this question.

If you had to edit with Red footage tomorrow what your your work flow look like?

tab32

[MichaelP]

Painful....

REDCINE to QuickTime wrapped DNxHD 145 (the only one it can do at this time).
Import into Avid. Delete Media.
Add START, END, and TAPE name to the column bin
Select ALL and export as ALE
Open in text editor
Put a value in the Tape name column
import ALE
select ALL
Batch import each clip to its corresponding QT file
Enter timecode and other metadata now that it has a tape associated with it.

A more detailed workflow will be done as soon as I get metadata to work with. For now, you can enter it by hand from the burn-in.

Michael

[Terry Wester]

Painful....

REDCINE to QuickTime wrapped DNxHD 145 (the only one it can do at this time).
Import into Avid. Delete Media.
Add START, END, and TAPE name to the column bin
Select ALL and export as ALE
Open in text editor
Put a value in the Tape name column
import ALE
select ALL
Batch import each clip to its corresponding QT file
Enter timecode and other metadata now that it has a tape associated with it.

A more detailed workflow will be done as soon as I get metadata to work with. For now, you can enter it by hand from the burn-in.

Michael


Ouch!!! :waaa:

Thanks for the responce, and please keep us informed as things get better. Hopefully.

[Joel Kaye]

They are writing the book on integration. And show me one pro workstation that does not have PS and AE on it.

Yeah - that's always my argument. The more they integrate those 2 products with Premiere the easier it gets to just stay Adobe. And Encore ain't too shabby. There are a lot of Photoshop users that will begin dabbling in video in the years ahead. I think FCP will have a fight on their hands. Color is a nice addition though. Whatever - I'll use both and go with what works best for the task at hand.

[MichaelP]

The workflow for the steps outlined above will become easier once we get metadata out of the camera or REDCINE as a file that can be parsed. That would eliminate the re-import.

Michael

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Python for the win! ;)

[Dylan Reeve]

While I'm not currently working with RED, I am currently testing a similar workflow with DVCPRO HD (for a variety of reasons I won't delve too deeply into) I have to capture 720p25 Varicam footage in Edius then export DNxHD Quicktime files.

Importing those to Avid is fine (although painfully slow) however even when unlinking (or deleting the media) I am unable to alter the Start Timecode (either in the bin view directly, or with Modify Clip). I get the two warning dialogues, and approve them appropriately but no change is made.

Any feedback? It's is essentially the same workflow, I believe.

I'll try a few more options tomorrow (ran out of time today).

[Edited to Add:]
Seems I may have found the problem (haven't tested it yet).
- The clip needs to have a tape number attached.
So I can use the Modify Clip tool to assign a tape number, then I should be able to set timecode.

[MichaelP]

Same issue as you point out. The problem with assigning a TAPE within the Avis is that all imports will have the same tape ID and you are likely to have same timecode at some point. The ALE merge concept removes that issue, but requires a double import which is painful. Does Edius export any kind of log file?

Michael

[Dylan Reeve]

Same issue as you point out. The problem with assigning a TAPE within the Avis is that all imports will have the same tape ID and you are likely to have same timecode at some point. The ALE merge concept removes that issue, but requires a double import which is painful. Does Edius export any kind of log file?

Michael

Right, so editing the 'Source' of one imported clip will apply it to other clips?

As yet, I do not know if I can export any sort of log with Edius. I'm probably going to write a simple ALE making program to eliminate the double import. Looking at the Clip Info it would be great if I could define a UNC Location in the ALE, as it would make the Batch Import smart, but that doesn't seem likely.

[Edited to add]
So I've tried this now, with success, should work with RED-originated DNxHD Quicktimes too:


Import Quicktime into Avid
Select Clip in Bin
Modify Tape Number (Select Clip then Clip -> Modify then 'Set Source')
Then modify start Timecode (either type new one in Bin, or use Clip -> Modify)


In doing this I get a clip in the bin that matches the tape number and timecode of the original source tape.

The only problem I face now is an Avid one - there is no 720p25 project type - I have to use 720p50, which means each frame is duplicated in my source, which is fine, it just means I have to be careful which frame I cut on. The other option is to import into an Avid 1080p25 or 1080i50 project. However in this case that's forcing Avid to perform a software upres of the footage - which I haven't yet evaluated, quality wise. But for RED that won't be an issue, you'll be acquiring at greater than 720 anyway.

[MichaelP]

You will run into another problem, you cannot apply different tape names for imported files in doing what you are doing. You can work in 1080p/25 as you say, I would suggest you type the following into the console:
setresizetype 9

It uses a different algorithm for the uprez.

Michael

[Dylan Reeve]

You will run into another problem, you cannot apply different tape names for imported files in doing what you are doing. You can work in 1080p/25 as you say, I would suggest you type the following into the console:
setresizetype 9

It uses a different algorithm for the uprez.

I haven't had any trouble applying different tape names to clips? Although I can't get Avid to relink to it.

But at the moment that's not much help anyway, as it seems the timecode I get from the SD-mode output is not the same as the timecode with the HD capture anyway, so that workflow looks doomed.

As for the resize type, I've had that set for a while - didn't know it applied to upresing on import. Handy.

[Terry Wester]

Ok, I have an idea, If I can find a conversion program that can convert the quicktime references into Avid ready MXF files with matching timecode, could this solve the problem of getting footage into the Avid that will link back to the original .r3d files. Can anyone verify or deny that this might work.

Thanks

[MichaelP]

Yes it will work. But once Redcine exports all the metadata, the process will be the same as the merge file import of the QuickTime file directly.

Michael

[Terry Wester]

Yes it will work. But once Redcine exports all the metadata, the process will be the same as the merge file import of the QuickTime file directly.

Michael

Michael,

Thanks again for all your help. I don't have access to any red files or software yet. I have a project coming up in the next few weeks with a client that is renting a Red One, and I am trying to be prepared. If you don't mind I have a few more questions.

What is the specific metadata that is missing? Red Cine will output quicktimes with this data, that right now, Red Alert will not. Am I understanding this correctly?

And how will the merge file import work?

Again thinks for your help and sharing the great info.

[MichaelP]

I have not seen timecode from the original files inserted into the timecode of the QuickTime. I haven't tried the latest beta version to see if that is no longer true.

You will want to make sure that the file name is the same as the .r3d file and not change it since the file name combined with the timecode is used for the final conform.

My comment is that creating MXF wrapped QuickTime is a lot more engineering work than perhaps waiting for the metadata to come out of Redcine as a merged file. But that is up to Assimilate as to when that may be available.

Michael

[Terry Wester]

I have not seen timecode from the original files inserted into the timecode of the QuickTime. I haven't tried the latest beta version to see if that is no longer true.

You will want to make sure that the file name is the same as the .r3d file and not change it since the file name combined with the timecode is used for the final conform.

My comment is that creating MXF wrapped QuickTime is a lot more engineering work than perhaps waiting for the metadata to come out of Redcine as a merged file. But that is up to Assimilate as to when that may be available.

Michael

Michael,

One of the main reasons I am interested in the MXF Avid ready files is that the import on the Avid should be very fast. You could do all the converting on backroom computers, or maybe a render farm, so not to tie the Avid up on long imports. What do you think?

[Jeff Brue]

The fast import of DNxHD quicktimes is essentially just copying the media into mxf files and splitting them up into chuncks less than 2 GB. It's actually not bad at all if you have fast enough storage, faster than realtime. There are a lot of tricks to be had with this kind of a workflow to automate data entry as well....one of these day I really need to write them all out for everyone.

[Terry Wester]

The fast import of DNxHD quicktimes is essentially just copying the media into mxf files and splitting them up into chuncks less than 2 GB. It's actually not bad at all if you have fast enough storage, faster than realtime. There are a lot of tricks to be had with this kind of a workflow to automate data entry as well....one of these day I really need to write them all out for everyone.


Jeff,
It would be greatly appreciated if you shared you knowledge on this type of workfow. I am new to it, and just trying to get my head around it, so any help is of great value.

[Brenton]

Painful....

REDCINE to QuickTime wrapped DNxHD 145 (the only one it can do at this time).
Import into Avid. Delete Media.
Add START, END, and TAPE name to the column bin
Select ALL and export as ALE
Open in text editor
Put a value in the Tape name column
import ALE
select ALL
Batch import each clip to its corresponding QT file
Enter timecode and other metadata now that it has a tape associated with it.

A more detailed workflow will be done as soon as I get metadata to work with. For now, you can enter it by hand from the burn-in.

Michael

Michael, have you tested this work path?

I'm trying it at the moment but Avid is kicking me to the curb :(

I adjust the ALE and reimport it but it tells me
Batch import clip 1 of 1 FAILED: A001_C004_071101_RedMag.mov with error:
Exception: CM_NO_SOURCE

and if I try to modify the original clip it tells me
source Media not found

Anything else I could try?

Thanks in advance

Brenton

[Dylan Reeve]

Michael, have you tested this work path?

I'm trying it at the moment but Avid is kicking me to the curb :(

I adjust the ALE and reimport it but it tells me
Batch import clip 1 of 1 FAILED: A001_C004_071101_RedMag.mov with error:
Exception: CM_NO_SOURCE

and if I try to modify the original clip it tells me
source Media not found

Anything else I could try?

Thanks in advance

Brenton

Hey Brenton!

If you want to burn the DNxHD file to a DVD and send it to me I'd love to have a crack - I've been doing a fair bit of playing with importing and exporting files from Avid lately (not from RED, but the concept remains the same).

Dylan Reeve

[Brenton]

Hey Brenton!

If you want to burn the DNxHD file to a DVD and send it to me I'd love to have a crack - I've been doing a fair bit of playing with importing and exporting files from Avid lately (not from RED, but the concept remains the same).

Dylan Reeve

Haha I should have known that was your handle!

I'll output a couple for you now :)

Giz a ring bro bout midday.

B

[MichaelP]

Yes, this has worked for me. Make sure you hightlight the elments in the bin before doing a batch capture so that you merge the right QT clips to the clip in the bin.

Michael

[Dylan Reeve]

I've definitely been able to import clips into Avid, and set new timecode and source information without having to take them offline, or reimport them.

Step 1 - Set Source

Highlight Clip in bin
Right Click, select Modify
Select 'Set Source'
Pick/Create Source
Click 'OK' in Modify dialog.
Click OK in all warning dialogs


Step 2 - Set Timecode

Highlight Clip in bin
Right Click, select Modify
Select 'Set Timecode By Field' and choose 'Start'
Enter Timecode
Click 'OK' in Modify dialog
Click OK in all warning dialogs

or
With bin in 'Text' view, highlight clip and type new timecode. Then click okay for all warning.

I've done this with all manner of imported clips (including DNxHD from Redcine, although the images were broken, the metadata changing still worked).

[Jabez Olssen]

I just tried this, and it seems to me that you're right about Step 2; Changing the Source Timecode works. But I couldn't get Step 1 (Changing the Source) to work, the following error was displayed: "The clip(s) you have selected could not be modified. 1 is a master clip and could not be modified by this operation unless unlinked."




I've definitely been able to import clips into Avid, and set new timecode and source information without having to take them offline, or reimport them.

Step 1 - Set Source

Highlight Clip in bin
Right Click, select Modify
Select 'Set Source'
Pick/Create Source
Click 'OK' in Modify dialog.
Click OK in all warning dialogs


Step 2 - Set Timecode

Highlight Clip in bin
Right Click, select Modify
Select 'Set Timecode By Field' and choose 'Start'
Enter Timecode
Click 'OK' in Modify dialog
Click OK in all warning dialogs

or
With bin in 'Text' view, highlight clip and type new timecode. Then click okay for all warning.

I've done this with all manner of imported clips (including DNxHD from Redcine, although the images were broken, the metadata changing still worked).

[Dylan Reeve]

I just tried this, and it seems to me that you're right about Step 2; Changing the Source Timecode works. But I couldn't get Step 1 (Changing the Source) to work, the following error was displayed: "The clip(s) you have selected could not be modified. 1 is a master clip and could not be modified by this operation unless unlinked."

Hmm.. That may be the case if it already has a source associated with it? When I've been importing the clips they come in with no source set. If there is no source set, then I can't set the timecode (it looks like it will work, but it just doesn't).

[Brenton]

It could be a version issue. My HD Adrenalines won't let me change the tape or timecode. My Express will... am currently testing the workflow now... report back soon :shiftyph34r:

Express HD version 5.7
Adrenaline version 2.1

The Express will only let me export an AAF (as I input the media as MXF) but that should work fine with our Smoke,
Importing footage again as OMF to test that way.

but as for actually getting Avid to change Source & Timecode no problem :biggrin:

B

[Dylan Reeve]

Media Composer 2.1? That's been the same version since I worked there! Make Grant upgrade! 2.7.5 is stable.

At the moment I can't get working DNxHD out of Redcine - it's all useless colour noise. But I'm not too worried about that at the moment, I have no immediate call to work with Red just yet.

I'll play more when we get our stupidly over-spec'd MacPro in the next little while.

[Brenton]

Media Composer 2.1? That's been the same version since I worked there! Make Grant upgrade! 2.7.5 is stable.

At the moment I can't get working DNxHD out of Redcine - it's all useless colour noise. But I'm not too worried about that at the moment, I have no immediate call to work with Red just yet.

I'll play more when we get our stupidly over-spec'd MacPro in the next little while.

The other one is 2.7 but it's been full of clients... I'm still having issues too, need to try it on a PC that'll work.

[Cail Young]

At the moment I can't get working DNxHD out of Redcine - it's all useless colour noise.

I've always had problems encoding to DNxHD on OS X from reference Quicktime files - have you tried using an intermediate format? Time-killer as it may be...

[MichaelP]

The latest version of REDCINE has broken the QT export as DNxHD. Also note that there is no control over which DNxHD - in a 24fps/23.976 it will always created DnxHD115.

Michael

[Dylan Reeve]

I'm hoping that is fixed before we do our first music video on RED in the new few months (or so it seems). Of course by then we'll have an FCP suite, but I'd rather cut on Avid.

[MichaelP]

I have imported the QT created from RedAlert! with success once the RED QT codecs are installed (see www.red.com). Using the QT wrapped R3D eliminates the step to self contained Avid QT with DNxHD and the Avid media is created during import to the DNxHD quality of your choice. But this would work for Mac only since RedAlert! does not run on PC.


Michael

[Job ter Burg]

Hi Michael,
Does that imply that metadata is coming in? I would guess not...?

Would be great if Red and Avid could work this out together. I don't see the point in leaving my preferred (offline) editing tool just because of a different camera.

***Did anyone think of a possible workaround using Automatic Duck? I'm far from familiar with FCP, and also far from familiar with Automatic Duck, but since the latter helps tranlating projects between FCP and Avid, could I simply use FCP and the Duck to get offline versions (with metadata) of Red footage into my Avid?***
Sorry about that last part, I just read a separate thread on this subject....

[Rob Lohman]

Would be great if Red and Avid could work this out together. I don't see the point in leaving my preferred (offline) editing tool just because of a different camera.

We are working on new workflows and integrations daily, but there's only so many hours in a day. So unfortunately we can't support everything from the get go, we had to start somewhere.

[Job ter Burg]

Thanks for the reply, Rob.
I'll keep a close eye on the developments. Your product seems more than interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing the offline/online process get into shape. The sooner Red products can fit into existing workflows (e.g. Avid offline & Scratch conform), the better, IMHO. I trust it you will take all necessary steps to enable optimal collaboration with companies like Avid.

[Terry Wester]

I have imported the QT created from RedAlert! with success once the RED QT codecs are installed (see www.red.com). Using the QT wrapped R3D eliminates the step to self contained Avid QT with DNxHD and the Avid media is created during import to the DNxHD quality of your choice. But this would work for Mac only since RedAlert! does not run on PC.


Michael

Michael,

Just curious, how long were the import times?

[Job ter Burg]

We are working on new workflows and integrations daily
Hi Rob,

I do see your point and I sense a great deal of commitment to making stuff work.

However, it has come to my attention that RED is only licensing their codec to Apple and Assimilate, which obviously leads to a slowdown in the integration process on the side of other manufacturers, like FilmLight, Avid, Quantel et aliter.

There may be strategic business and marketing reasons for this, but I do wish to point out the downside for end users of this particular status quo and I do hope that things will change for the better. I'm very anxious to start using your products, but I really do need some amount of choice when it comes to platforms for (offline) editing and finishing.

Best regards,
Job.

[Michael Lindsay]

However, it has come to my attention that RED is only licensing their codec to Apple and Assimilate, which obviously leads to a slowdown in the integration process on the side of other manufacturers, like FilmLight, Avid, Quantel et aliter.



This came to my attention too.. I have been unable to get the dates when this agreement finishes or what the exact limitations are.

I to love the editorial comfort of Avid and am worried about how I work with Red files in post.

however:

As much as native-codec editorial work sounds cool I suspect I don't mind not being involved. Perhaps I over estimate the complexity of pulling 1k (or SD) proxies on the fly but experience with working with Long Gop or slow codecs mean I am happy to suffer a conversion into an editorially friendly/fast/robust/small codec... This may as well be Avid (assuming meta data gets passed)

The 2 layers of computationally intensive processing (de-wavelet, de-Bayer) that any application will have to deal with before the addition of primary/secondary CC work leave me realistic.

If, as I suspect, the de-wavelet, de-Bayer process robs too much CPU/GPU resources leaving grading (and effects work) as a clunky process then Scratchs 'native' ability no longer means as much. It then makes more sense to produce via a pull list 2k (or HD) dpx files from Redcine and conform with what ever you want. This may be scratch as it's native ability won't hurt but could just be the usual suspects. What it probably won't be (for me) is Avid unless their Digital vision dabbling gets better resourced and price aggressive.

Avid don't and never have had a Grading application. Syphony CC is nearly okish (and nearly good augmented with 55mm and sapphires) but thinking about Avid Finishing (despite my love of MC editorial ease) depresses me.

I am still considering Scratch: What would really sell it would be the ability to go beyond a CMX 3600 out of a Avid MC for a data conform. I suspect this is not a priority and maybe a third party (Automatic Duck) could take this on.

regards

Michael Lindsay

[MichaelP]

Avid can handle a ton-o-metadata once it becomes accessible to the application. Avid can currently export all of this out as a TAB based file or in the very near future; XML. Downstream conform can use any or all of the metadata fields for conform, pan & scan, ASC_CDL values, etc. For a deeper description on metadata management and logging see: http://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/

So there is plenty of tracking capability to import anything out of the RED camera once available to allow conform as DPX, timecode, or whatever.

Michael

[Rob Lohman]

However, it has come to my attention that RED is only licensing their codec to Apple and Assimilate, which obviously leads to a slowdown in the integration process on the side of other manufacturers, like FilmLight, Avid, Quantel et aliter.

We're writing both these things ourselves....

Some more thoughts from me and Deanan on this:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=111296&postcount=113
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=111301&postcount=116
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=111651&postcount=136

[Dylan Reeve]

We're writing both these things ourselves....

Some more thoughts from me and Deanan on this:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=111296&postcount=113
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=111301&postcount=116
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=111651&postcount=136

Hi Rob,

I've just read those posts, and it has totally clicked for me. It's easy to forget with all the hype and interest in the industry that this is still a beta product. The Red codecs are still in active development, and in that respect Apple and Assimilate are essentially 'beta testers' in as much as their integration is concerned.

I appreciate this fact - and I understand that it doesn't really benefit any of us to have that 'beta' group grow larger while the codecs and formats are still not fully mature. So by all means, that makes sense.

I think to many of us (especially Avid editors who are increasingly seeing work move to FCP) it can feel a little bit like some parts of the industry are conspiring to make a little inside group to which we haven't been invited.

I think in the immediate term for those of us not planning to do our editorial work in FCP we should be hoping to see better support for Metadata export from the Red tools, and better metadata import support within our chosen applications (in Avid's case that probably means QT metadata support, or a modified 'ALE' workflow for import files).

Rob, thanks for your response, and I really really look forward to the Red format reaching a point where it is stable enough to see integration on over platforms. Although perhaps there will be the option for a gradual integration - where other vendors can sign licencing agreements and be given technical information for those parts of the format that are locked off and unlikely to change alot, to give them a little headstart on the grunt work once it's all go.

[Job ter Burg]

Thanks for the clarification, it is appreciated.

[Rob Lohman]

The nice thing about all of this is that we can focus on making sure everything works perfectly. All this stuff is being put in a central location so that should help getting future integrations with other packages going a lot faster (since all the basic hard work is already done, just need to do some custom work for a specific application).

Thanks for understanding, 2008 will be a very interesting year!