Gauging interest, or: What would you like in a meter?

[Andy Jarosz]

I hope this thread will serve two purposes. One, to gauge interest in a new light/color meter, and Two, to ask what you would like in a meter.

So first of all, imagine a fully featured combination light/color meter (read: different sensors, not one trying to do both jobs) with a special screen that allows for more data to be displayed (vectorscope, footcandles/lux/stops/etc, RGB, CMY, HSL, write data to an SD card...you get the idea) for under $1500...would you buy it?

Second of all, what would you want in a meter like this? What do you love or hate about your current meters?

[Joel Kaye]

Hmm... gotta have a spot meter. So are you thinking this would have HD-SDI in? Once you do a vectorscope you may as well have waveform monitor, RGB parade etc.

I've noticed variances among meters. Color meters can be pretty wacky too. If it was super accurate it would be a unique selling point. I think adding scopes help justify the cost. Someone could hang it off their Coloring workstation in post if you had hd-sdi in.

[Charles Angus]

I honestly cannot conceive of a use for having a vectorscope, etc. on my light metre. Having an HD-SDI in would just be annoying, and would NEVER get used. That's what scopes are for.

If you wanted to make a mini-scope that could sit on the camera, that might be neat - a little 3-inch display with a button to toggle between waveform, vectorscope, parade, histogram I could see as being nice to have. Would need HD-SDI pass-through.

What would be nice in a metre would be the ability to switch easily between footcandles and stops.

[Andy Jarosz]

An HD-SDI would be cumbersome. The vectorscope would simply be a different way to view your data, which can't hurt.

Yes, you would be able to switch between just about any unit you can imagine or view multiple at once. For the color meter, there could also be an option to view what gels are needed to get the sampled color to match the cameras white balance.

[Mark Collins]

I would need something that does spot and incident, as well as colour temp and rgb values.

Something that would be kinda cool would be a digital swatch book with Lee and Rosco filters in it, kinda of like a lighter version of Adobe Kuler, where you could match colours and see what would go best with what and what gels you would need to accomplish that.

Though, in hindsight you would eventually learn through experience which gels you need to do which job. Still, it would be somewhat cool.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Ultimate meter would be:

Spot, incident and color metering modes. Can be profiled to match various cameras and meter can store multiple profiles that the user can toggle as needed. Should be able to report color temp as well as color values in whatever color mode the user selects. Settings for shutter speed can be dialed in precisely. It would be nice to have various shutter behavior modes and frame rate selection that works just like, or very similar to, how the RED works. Such as relative shutter mode. eg: Let us dial a ramp into the meter the same as we would set it up on camera.

The meter should have a way for the end user to effectively test and calibrate it in addition to setting profiles. Software used for profiling should work on both Windows and MacOS, Linux would be a bonus. While we're at it, extend the profiling and calibration software to also work on the iPad -- hey, why not? The meter should be able to communicate via wi-fi as well as be able to connect with other standard camera controls or switches so it can be used to properly meter flashes and strobes. Meter will store data locally if you insert an SDHC card. The profiling / calibration / management software can also receive live metering data from the meter. It should allow setting up of multiple metering sets or targets and then be able to track readings for those targets. For example, I should be able to set up a target and call it "GreenScreen" and another target and call it "Subjects_Shirt" and be able to toggle between those two targets on the meter. When I take a reading for either target, it is sent to the software app and binned with the appropriate target data.

Oh yeay, make it about the same size as, maybe just slightly larger than, a Sekonic L-758. Give it a nice and comfy rubberized pistol grip. Oh, and make it totally waterproof! As in totally submersible.

[Michael Grugal]

I use Waveforms and Vector scopes everyday. Then I again I work for a television studio. I never understood why waveforms arn't not widely used compared to the histogram in the digital cinema field.

[David Rasberry]

I use Waveforms and Vector scopes everyday. Then I again I work for a television studio. I never understood why waveforms arn't not widely used compared to the histogram in the digital cinema field.

They are only good for encoded video formats. The histograms give a lot more useful info if you are shooting raw IMO,

[Jeff Coatney]

I think we're seeing these features migrate into the camera more and more. I don't think the market window on a product such as this is very long. However, if you really want to innovate in this sector, it seems like there's plenty of room to do this.

I like Jeff's suggestions. I don't think divorcing the histogram from the camera buys you anything-- I think you need real feedback from the sensor to have that. In order to interface with the camera, you need the manufacturer's co-operation and you can't co-develop-- you have to wait for the production model and the SDK if there is one. This limits your product's market window to the point where you have to R&D, build and launch within your target camera's product cycle.

What if it wasn't just a light meter? What if it was a "scene meter"? In a sense, this is what you're describing, so I think you'd have a broader market relevance if you broadened the scope of your focus to include tools that the visual effects team could use as well? Maybe there's an integrated toolset for HDR? And a "Director's Viewfinder 2.0"?

I would either go in the direction of a broader use for many disciplines on set or radically narrow the focus to a simpler, more rugged light meter and price it for everyone.

Based on your first description, I can see a type of tablet computer looking device that has a camera on it which can be used as a Director's viewfinder and wireless tap. The DP can point the on-board camera to any part of the set or location and get the color temperature of each light source (exposures, ramping, HDR) , then record a scene file that maps the lights in the scene for the VFX supervisor and continuity (for future reshoots or replication of lighting set-ups on a green screen stage) that writes metadata to the camera. You should also be able to use it as a smart slate and wireless follow-focus.

I can picture more than one of these on set and they talk to each other wirelessly. Maybe they replace walkie's to some degree for the department heads? Everybody gets the tap? Certain times the signal can be blocked? I often see on set that the different department heads sometimes need the same data and many times they gather the same data multiple times - if you centralized and automated some of this data, you speed up the day's work, increasing productivity. An increase in Productivity gives you more shooting, more pages shot, shorter schedules, better performances through more takes, etc. When you bring to bear proven industrial techniques to improve productivity to filmmaking, you make movies cheaper. Cheaper production helps the studios and the indies and the micro-indies.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm not sure I understand the want or need for waveforms and histograms in a metering device. Waveforms and histograms apply to what the camera itself is seeing and recording...

Histogram along with false color exposure shows everything a waveform will, and more.

How would one do a histogram or waveform on a hand-held metering device anyway? It would need some kind of rasterizing sensor or sensor array to properly do it. At that point, it just becomes another camera. I guess I'm a bit confused here...

Or then there's portable scopes and monitoring devices or other external tools that can take a signal from the camera to deliver this information. With a camera like the RED, these are not that particularly useful when shooting RAW and not relying on a REC-709 based post color process. Monitoring the HD-SDI feed out of the RED One into a scope or waveform only gives me information on that compressed RGB or YUV space and only with whatever look/LUT I have applied. Finally we're starting to see people trust the RAW a bit more and move away from this HD ball and chain. I think the new exposure tools and RAW meters in build 30 are helping too, as people relax and willingly learn to use them.

On that note, what would be cool is if the upcoming DSMC cameras would have a "metering module" of sorts. Perhaps a module that could analyze the image data and transmit more detailed metering info based on the RAW data in the form of more detailed histograms, vectorscopes, waveforms, etc.. It would be cool, but I don't know how practical or worth-while it would be. The onboard camera tools usually tell me everything I need to know anyway.

[KETCH ROSSi]

I love my Sekonic 758C but if you pull out an all in one LM like Jeff suggested then Im in.

[Andy Jarosz]

Thanks for your feedback guys.

I do not have any plans to implement a waveform monitor or histogram, as I'm not entirely sure how those apply to a meter either. But you've all given great suggestions, and many might wind up in the device if I end up perusing this path.

Based on Jeff Coatney's suggestions I might also consider a different, seperate system that ties all departments into one portable screen like an iPad or iPad-type device. Though that is a whole 'nother ball of wax....

[pcunite]

This is a very much needed product. I want a small Sekonic 7758 sized device so I can hand it off to assistants, and they can keep it on their person, not some huge iPad sized device.

[Andy Jarosz]

This is a very much needed product. I want a small Sekonic 7758 sized device so I can hand it off to assistants, and they can keep it on their person, not some huge iPad sized device.

Hi,
I'm currently prototyping the meter. Once I'm ready to start on that product, I'll ask for more opinions. Unless people think that it's more important, in which case, fire away.