Ambush test...

[Jannard]

We have a tip there there is an ambush test going on this weekend. We have been told that someone from Kodak is doing a side by side test where the results "have been pre-determined". The cameras involved are RED, D20, F23 and a 35mm film camera. Should be interesting. By the way, RED was not invited to the test.

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

Jim

[Jaime Vallés]

It's a trap!!! :devil::w00t:

[jaadgy akanni]

If their purpose weren't to undermine RED, such a test wouldn't even be conducted. However, in RED we trust... no worries.

[jaadgy akanni]

It's a trap!!! :devil::w00t:



Jaime, you promised not to show that picture of my mother-in-law:angry2:

[Post]

Sounds like the spin machine is starting -- isn't it interesting that now that they realize they're toast, they have to set up a spin session to try to persuade the world. Sorry...the verdict has already been served: Red 1 Competition--who cares

[Jaime Vallés]

Jaime, you promised not to show that picture of my mother-in-law:angry2:
Sorry, man... I was just staring at her last night in bed and felt compelled to share her beauty with the rest of the world. Those big, yellow eyes... :love:

Ahem, um, back on topic. The big guys are running scared! Can't wait to see what their "experts" have to say. You have to wonder how on earth they're going to make a D20 look better than a RED...

BTW, Jim, how'd you find out about the test? :shiftyph34r:

[chuck colburn]

Jaime, you promised not to show that picture of my mother-in-law:angry2:

Got any photos of your wife?.....wanna buy some?

[tj williams]

The guy fm Eastman is having a lot of trouble trying to load the film into that little slot in the side of the RED....
but you gotta love that soft clicking noise....

[chuck colburn]

The guy fm Eastman is having a lot of trouble trying to load the film into that little slot in the side of the RED....
but you gotta love that soft clicking noise....


Ahahahahaha!

You can make the clicking go away by adjusting the pitch control.

[Mark Thorpe]

I was just staring at her last night in bed and felt compelled to share her beauty with the rest of the world. Those big, yellow eyes... :love: Hey, at least your missus wears make up!!

[Poi Boy]

Wow, how pathetically lame. An ambush test may be a short term win for the ambushers but really won't help them in the long run. Red one WILL become legend regardless of their efforts.
Aloha
-A

[Vladimir Eugene]

I heard about this test last week. A mutual friend is involved somehow. I asked him if they already had a Red. He mentioned they did, and he was sure Red was going to optimize it.

[Poi Boy]

I heard about this test last week. A mutual friend is involved somehow. I asked him if they already had a Red. He mentioned they did, and he was sure Red was going to optimize it.

What does that mean ?
-A

[David Battistella]

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.
Jim

What would this test involve?

David

[tj williams]

This test is to clearly establish that film is superior to any and all digital technology clear up to the Digital intermediate stage.....
I love to say that as it gets everyone on this board so cranked up!!!!

[Vladimir Eugene]

He thought it was legit. Being that Red didn't even know about it, means it clearly isn't.


What does that mean ?
-A

[Poi Boy]

He thought it was legit. Being that Red didn't even know about it, means it clearly isn't.

Thanks for the clarification; clearly not legit...do you know who's camera they are using ?
Aloha
-A

[David Battistella]

This test is to clearly establish that film is superior to any and all digital technology clear up to the Digital intermediate stage.....
I love to say that as it gets everyone on this board so cranked up!!!!

TJ,

In quoting Jim, I was asking him what the test that RED is setting up would involve.

Sorry for the confusion.

The camera is out there now, so people are going to praise it and some may try to take pot shots. That's life. I am sure that RED has a thick skin.

David

[Vladimir Eugene]

I don't know who's camera. I heard it from one of the post guys

Thanks for the clarification; clearly not legit...do you know who's camera they are using ?
Aloha
-A

[jbeale]

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.
Jim

I am very much looking forward to hearing (and seeing) the results of this test, where everyone gets to take their best shot.

By the way, I have a silly question: if I wanted to do a quick-and-dirty test myself using a 35mm SLR still camera, is there any consumer 35mm color negative film that is roughly similar to popular 35mm motion picture stock? As far as I know I can't buy Kodak 5218 in 24-exposure roll, let alone get it developed properly...

[Jannard]

TJ,

In quoting Jim, I was asking him what the test that RED is setting up would involve.

Sorry for the confusion.

The camera is out there now, so people are going to praise it and some may try to take pot shots. That's life. I am sure that RED has a thick skin.

David

We do NOT have thick skin... :-)

Jim

[jaadgy akanni]

What would this test involve?

David

I was about to ask that. What are the specifics?What will they be looking at, what will be compared? What convincing arguments could they possibly make to show and establish the superiority of film, as they see it. Let there be no assumption on their part that RED is claiming to look "exactly" or even superior to film, 'cause thats a subjective matter. IMHO RED has achieved the motion look that up until now had been exclusive to film, but has it's own special aesthetics, and has also managed to avoid the Video look we've come know and hate. I'm really curious to see the conclusions they come to.

[Jannard]

If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim

[M.Halsell]

obviously, is that RED is getting more media mentions. The RED name being dropped in the same circles as the heavy weights can only serve to increase brand of RED even further.

[Steve Sherrick]

I guess Kodak is looking to survive in this changing landscape, and to a certain extent I feel bad that film may someday be an afterthought. But here is my artistic point of view, which differs from my economic point of view. I don't want to see film go away. I actually like it a lot. I like the way it captures images. I like how different stocks react to light. I see it as an artistic choice, one a filmmaker can make to best tell their story. Red will have it's own place. It will be a popular choice, with its own style, its own possibilities. One isn't right, one isn't wrong. I kind of hope this choice doesn't go away.

The economic side of me realizes Kodak and other film stock companies need to make money or they won't survive. Budgets are being cut too, so filmmakers are looking for more practical ways to shoot. Sometimes it's not about creative choices, but about getting it done on time and on budget. This is why film will go away eventually, or at least be the minority. Because it will be less practical for many productions, and demand for film will continue to decline until Kodak and others cannot sustain that part of their business and will have to join the digital acquisition side of things.

In a perfect world, we would have our choices.

Steve

[Jannard]

I love film, too. But a test should be fair. Not an ambush.

Jim

[donatello b]

"I can't buy Kodak 5218 in 24-exposure roll, let alone get it developed properly..."

some motion picture labs will sell/give you a roll of any motion film out there and process it ( $$) ... the longer the better = go for 36 exp ..

[David Battistella]

If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim

Jim,

I think that is a great idea. I wonder if everyone could agree on the parameters of the test. I'm not sure that everyone else is, or wants to be as transparent as RED.

On the thick skin. I get the impression you guys are tough enough to deal with some adversity, challenges or even pure fabrication, that's my perception.. :)

David

[Jannard]

I have every thin skin... I want to kick everyone's ass. :-)

Jim

[David Battistella]

I have every thin skin... I want to kick everyone's ass. :-)

Jim

YEAH!!!!

That's what I am talkin' about. RED FIRE!!!

Rip it up!!!

d

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim,

They are only doing this cause they see themselves losing ground. They are trying to run a race they are destined to lose.

I am curious who ELSE is involved with this 'test'. I would call it a "setup" myself.

Jay

[Michael Schrengohst]

We have a tip there there is an ambush test going on this weekend. We have been told that someone from Kodak is doing a side by side test where the results "have been pre-determined". The cameras involved are RED, D20, F23 and a 35mm film camera. Should be interesting. By the way, RED was not invited to the test.

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

Jim

So Kodak bought one of the first RED's?
I love film as much as the next guy. It really
is not the film cost but the transfer cost now.
I was quoted $1000 per hour to do film to
digital 2K. And this is in Dallas....maybe LA is cheaper?
RED will be fine for 99% of most work.

[Steve Freebairn]

The Kodak propaganda dvd is kind of funny to watch. Particularly where they have a car on a track going through cones and they are saying that with a digital camera you can't focus it as well as you can with the optical film camera viewfinder. It may be partially true (depending on the viewfinder), but the "digital" footage they show is a joke. Totally set up.

[M.Halsell]

in the marketplace. Real world tests have a reliable scrutiny that will be undeniable. RED team has demonstrated courage behind the leadership of Jannard.

The responsibility of the RED collective is produce strong artistic and commercial material that will give RED credibility.

[Matt Setnes]

I'm not bothered by this at all. The Red camera is a revolution but it also has a very big supporting community.

[Steve Sherrick]

I love film, too. But a test should be fair. Not an ambush.

Jim

Agree 100%. I was getting a bit philosophical there because I'd like to see them coexisting.

But in terms of the test, if they are going to do something to screw with the digital footage, that's too bad. Won't help their cause if people find out that's what happened. But if they are truly feeling the sting from digital acquisition, I don't foresee them inviting you to a test. It's not so much that Red would blow film out of the water (in all due respect, it's not like we are comparing Red to a DVX. Film will hold its own in a fair testing situation) but Red will win because people will see how much quality is there, how much you can do to manipulate it to get a look, and at the pricepoint, film won't be able to compete. People will see the writing on the wall. And if Kodak is trying to hold on to their film stock lineup, that would be damaging. But the reality is, they probably understand where this is all heading more than anyone. I'm sure they are looking at transitioning, they will go where the money is.

Steve

[david farland]

Jim,
You should've done this first! What's the worst that can happen.
I guess the problems you have is it's an unreliable beta camera which in a write-up will look poor.
I hope the DR and demosiac is as good as you can get it!
I'd leave Gibby's test alone.

Call for an open invite to a shoot out with industry names...gonna happen if you do it or not!
Include cml.net as I'm sure for all their words they (cml) still want to be a part of any revolution.
Make sure you get others from outside.
All of this can only generate advertising...it's your job to make sure some of it is real....preferably real good!
good luck............

[mdo]

A few notes:

1. If it is an ambush test, then the test was defined in terms of the differences between Red and film, so that the outcome will favor film. Done deal. They won't need to tamper with anything.

2. Underhanded actions of the kind that this appears to be are difficult to get right, so it is likely that it will be screwed up in some way.

3. Playing a silly game like this could greatly accelerate the decline of film.

4. Watching the media reaction to the story and how the story ripples through the industry will tell an enormous amount about the lay of the land. It's like sonar.

5. The driving force is shareholder valuation. This kind of thing is almost inevitable.

6. As the new technology replacing a moribund technology, Red has the upper hand. Most of the danger associated with something like this is the risk of responding inappropriately and surrendering the upper hand. Just stay the course and redouble the promotion.

7. If Red's approach is more intelligent than the competing approach, it can be a lot of fun watching the story unfold.

[Poi Boy]

Jim and gang, I know this is your baby and no one likes to hear the baby is ugly...but,you know, none of this really matters in the long run. kodak, sony, cml and the like are in denial but the fact is people like Sodenberg are using red for features. They don't have to but they want to, nuff said ! Over time as the results get around, what Kodak thinks won't matter to anyone and the Red camera will be legend. We have to wait and see what the bogus test comes up with but the tide will turn rather quickly and there is no going back. If you own Kodak or Sony stock, now would be a good time to sell.
Aloha
-A

[Steve Sherrick]

I can see Sony dropping out of the race, at least for a little while. Kodak, I don't know. They have a lot at stake here, they've been around for a long time. I see them doing something to stay in the game. Perhaps they design their own sensor, maybe their own camera. Film is not going to disappear overnight, so they have a little time to make this happen. Red has the leg up on everybody right now. For all of us, that's a good thing.

Steve

[Zach Hilton]

I have every thin skin... I want to kick everyone's ass. :-)

Jim

Jim, you can kick mine. :)

The first rule of Jim's club is - you don't talk about Jim's club!

And so on...

[laguun]

"Soon, I'm not going to be answering questions about film because I won't know. It will be too small for me to get involved."

Antonio Perez
CEO
Kodak
2006

[Cory Schulthies]

well, with the truth behind them, I'm guessing the Red marketing team could beat up the Kodak marketing team.

Kodak is making the same mistakes that they made when the world went to digital still cameras. Denying the technology's potential, and trying to berate it until they are loosing hundreds of millions of dollars, and are forced to join the digital club or cease to exist. They really don't understand the concept of disruptive technology.

pathetic

[Jeff Coatney]

Here's what I think happened: Jim up and delivered real working cameras, not BS vaporware. Sensing mild alarm, Kodak sales reps get on the horn to their customers and try to lock in orders for next year, some at sizable discounts. Under pressure to sign sales contracts for film they may not need, suddenly people are calling their Kodak sales rep (who's on the 9th hole at Pebble Beach) and saying they want to delay giving him (or her) their projections for next year because they want to take a wait-and-see approach because "Everything seems like it's in flux". Then, faced with the possibility of shrinking sales commissions that could jeopardize the Hamptons weekend house (yes, some of them make that much in commissions), somebody gets the bright idea to do a showdown test so they can go back to their lab customers with some "real" data before 4th quarter. Meanwhile, the sales manager is pressuring his reps to get their projections in for next year (October's nearly here already) so they can report to the stockholders that next year will be Kodak's best year ever. Somebody's RED camera gets put in that Kangaroo court and c'mon, we all know what the "results" are going to be. But the bottomline is this, Jim: You've ALREADY KICKED THEIR ASS. You did it over a year and 9 months ago. You stuck the little firecracker in the Dam back then and now they're all beginning to feel the concrete starting to shake. I predict that by the time you deliver your 3000th camera, you will be sitting on a pile of buyout offers. Keep your eye on the prize and don't let these Bozos distract you.

[Jannard]

Here's what I think happened: Jim up and delivered real working cameras, not BS vaporware. Sensing mild alarm, Kodak sales reps get on the horn to their customers and try to lock in orders for next year, some at sizable discounts. Under pressure to sign sales contracts for film they may not need, suddenly people are calling their Kodak sales rep (who's on the 9th hole at Pebble Beach) and saying they want to delay giving him (or her) their projections for next year because they want to take a wait-and-see approach because "Everything seems like it's in flux". Then, faced with the possibility of shrinking sales commissions that could jeopardize the Hamptons weekend house (yes, some of them make that much in commissions), somebody gets the bright idea to do a showdown test so they can go back to their lab customers with some "real" data before 4th quarter. Meanwhile, the sales manager is pressuring his reps to get their projections in for next year (October's nearly here already) so they can report to the stockholders that next year will be Kodak's best year ever. Somebody's RED camera gets put in that Kangaroo court and c'mon, we all know what the "results" are going to be. But the bottomline is this, Jim: You've ALREADY KICKED THEIR ASS. You did it over a year and 9 months ago. You stuck the little firecracker in the Dam back then and now they're all beginning to feel the concrete starting to shake. I predict that by the time you deliver your 3000th camera, you will be sitting on a pile of buyout offers. Keep your eye on the prize and don't let these Bozos distract you.

OK... we won't.

Jim

[Corrado Silveri]

Hey Jeff,
what a piece of drama!
Great post.

[jbeale]

I believe Red is continuing to evolve and improve their camera- I am hopeful that they will not rush into doing their own camera shootout test before they are fully ready to do it right.

[Cory Schulthies]

I believe Red is continuing to evolve and improve their camera- I am hopeful that they will not rush into doing their own camera shootout test before they are fully ready to do it right.

lets face it, film has topped out as a medium, there physically isn't a lot they can do to improve it. Digital cinema is just getting started and its already better than film in many ways. Things are only going to improve.

Kodak should have been the first with a digital cinema camera, but they are lazy.

Just like all the typewriter companies that thought IBM was crazy for making computers, then scrambled to keep up.
Red is going to take Kodaks lunch...and they are crapping their pants over it.

[Jiri Bakala]

Calm down everybody... test - shmest... who cares? Film is great, Red is great! Long live film and long live Red. In the end the market will decide.

There will be film and there will be video. There will be also Red, D20, F23 and others. We will continue to watch great films shot on DV and crappy ones shot with 35mm. And the other way around.

Don't become defensive. No need. Just like with other technologies, Red is not for everyone and not for every project. If some people want to shoot wedding videos on Red, fine, go ahead. If there are people who are mortgaging their house to buy Red, go ahead. Personally I think it's silly. We are back to the fact that the ownership of a pencil doesn't make anybody Leonardo daVinci. And arguments about whether a pencil is better than a pen or a crayon don't make too much sense either.

Is a test like this an ambush? Perhaps, but then maybe not. Will it change the success or failure of Red? Hardly. There are always various tests conducted by people with different objectives. Do your own or wait for someone else to do another - no doubt, there will be a number of tests conducted over the next few months.

The fact that George Lucas and Robert Rodrigues shot features with F900 didn't kill film either. Neither will Red. It's a total nonsense when some people keep repeating that the 'imminent demise of film' is here.

Red is openning doors to more indie filmmakers than any other high end camera before but make no mistake, ownership of Red will not make anyone the next Spielberg. The people here who are barely scrambling to buy the camera and a still lens adaptor would do better if they used those funds to make their dream film by paying real actors, getting real crew, renting other support equipment and so on. Oh, did I mention a great script?

Red is doing a great job with this camera but there are, by their own admission, many technical issues to be resolved. It will take a while before the system is fully supported and accepted by the industry. The TV industry, for example, is highly unlikely to go down this route any time soon. The 4k resolution is a huge overkill for HD television and the networks and post-houses have entire tape-based and disk-based systems in place, which are tested and work quite well. They need a bullet proof archiving system and at this point nobody can deal very effectively with the amount of data a Red camera in a TV environment would create in just a few days.

So, let anyone run a test and take what you can from it. Is a 35mm film going to fair well compared to Red? Sure. And why not? It is a great medium with the best archiving in existence to date. That doesn't mean that people won't shoot features with Red. Of course they will.

This should not be about THEM and US. About 'let's kick their butt'. Why? Live and let live. Market forces and real results will decide. Eventually digital will be the medium used for most acquisition anyway, there is no question about that. I just really don't see why there needs to be so much animosity. The bottom line is Red is another tool in the box, let's use it as such and not throw away the rest. Oh yes, I should also mention, it shouldn't be "you are either with us or against us". Unfortunately, some people on this board have a tendency to view the world like that.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Jim - no worries - Sales and who chooses to shoot RED over Kodak will be obvious soon.

Last time I saw, GM's Saturn was saying they had a better car than Honda and Toyota... Sales are still in Honda and Toyota's favor. Every time a Director chooses RED, Kodak and Fuji are loosing... not to mention Hollywood is going to 4k projection to eliminate film... the last thing they have is to shoot film... they lost the still market, will loose the projection, and in less than 5 years will loose the expensive and grainy production market.

Just ask Kodak - 8 gig flash for $200.00 for 5 minutes and re-usable or $1 a foot or second or about $300 for 5 minutes of film.... roughly... and non re-usable. :-) - oh and RED is 4k when film projected is um... 2k....

[Alex Wengert]

Who is supplying the Red? Is it Mathers?

[donatello b]

you gotta look at kodak's past ads on film vs digital/video ...
they tend to list X camera's = 5 stop DR , z camera 2 stops , Y camera 3 stops - many times with some kind of graph , and kodak FILM 66 stops ... or they lump all the video camera's together - video 5 stops - FILM 14 stops ... also they always mention the storage life of film vs digital ...

they are going to only mention the positive of FILM .. IE: (for example only) like when they say sales are up 50% in 2005 since 2002 but forget to mention that compared to 2000 they are down 50% ...

[I Bloom]

Their test is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter because at this stage in the game it's still about economics.

So they can try and bash red on some issues if they want to but it's still about the workflow. With 4K Redcode files you are very close to having what you would have when you scanned film to a DI. The cost to get there is tremendously lower. Bottom line.

I won't have a chance to shoot with a RED until October, so I'm just not ready to have an oppinion on the image quality (I have one, based on footage I've seen, but I'll just wait until I've actually had it in my hands).
But even if RED isn't quite as good as scanned film, (again, withholding my oppinion until it's informed) it doesn't matter because based on the value you are getting per dollar spent on equipment and footage, Jim already sunk their battleship...perhaps by a factor of 10.

And since when does anyone listen to Kodak's marketing. We shoot our own tests, we decide for ourselves. We always rate their film lower than what's advertised anyways, essentially because we know it's BS. They can't even compare their own products, let alone other peoples.

It would be fun though to listen to the guys shooting the test. "WOW: how much does it cost?"

IBloom

[Jason Francois]

Hey, I love film as much as the next guy....I think...it's been so long since I've been able to afford to shoot with it that I'm having trouble remembering.

Also, I hear a lot of people talking about KODAK. What does this mean? Is this some kind of in-joke or secret code?

Best,

Jason

[Alex Wengert]

Basically opinons are like assholes. Everyone has one. The only way to know the truth is to stop reading and to start doing. Shoot your own tests, in your real world enviornments, and formulate your own opinions. Published tests don't mean shit. Real world is where it's at. You are no longer in school and listening to lectures. Practical application time boychicks!

[Blue]

Digital aquisition as re-defined by Red has way too many benefits over film for there to even be a hope for the latter. Any informed person will see this. I have so much respect for this project. Can you feel the love? I mean...can you?

[Jannard]

I don't mind a fair shootout... I just take offense where the guy putting it on dictates the results.

Jim

[Michael Morlan]

In an interesting parallel, while bidding on an internal video for the USMC, I learned that chemical propellants have reached their velocity limit in firing tank main gun payloads. The USMC (and other departments) have been vigorously pursuing rail gun technology to reach the next level of thrust.

[Evin Grant]

And this is parallel because they both exist in this universe?

[Alex Wengert]

WTF< This is what I'm taking about about. See my other threads.

[Mark Thorpe]

Screw the test, I'm drinking a Budweiser......the only bottled water on Palau!!

[Sanjin Jukic]

This war started a long ago.
For this ambush test Jim reacted immediately a good fighter.
THE RATS are everywhere as we know well.
Anyway RED will be a winner in a year and this could be the end of the war.

[Mardi_Gras]

These are my observations:

1. An ambush test serves Kodak nor any of the other players no good, so my assumption is that they will at least try to look objective with the "results" of the managed tests.

2. Red only recently shipped its 1st 50 units (very young in tech terms) to begin to speculate on its potential reach and place in the industry - even Jim concedes his, is pretty much a work-in-progress. He's not where he wants to be with the Red One yet, so every tests should and must recognize this fact, were they to be even slightly taken seriously.

3. Before the 50 units rolled out, Peter "LOTR" Jackson, Soderberg and others have "field tested" the RedOne with largely positive feedback - no Kodak "studio managed tests" can outstrip these, unfortunately for them.

4. From what has come out of the 1st 50 units and the prototypes, coupled with the very streamlined and cost effective workflow of the Redcode Raw aka "indie DI", Kodak, Sony and the other big guys have a helluva compettition on their hands ala the RedOne.

5. Finally, just like digital still SLR steamrolled traditional 35mm SLR film, Red and all the other players and proponents of the digital motion capture industry, will eventually have the day... its an inevitable reality of free market economies that cost efectiveness, coupled with time saving and ease of use, always wins the day.

Coming from a fan... I mean a rez holder, it might not mean much, but taking a few steps backwards to see the bigger picture, I bet it will resonate.

[Hrvoje Simic]

They can ambush all they can. You have something(s) they don't have.

The ones who will get the wrong opinion about RED will only bang themselves on the head more later. It all comes back...eventually.

You started changes. Many people will try to resist.
Try.

[Ramesh Jai]

WTF< This is what I'm taking about about. See my other threads.
You need to take a chill pill my dear friend.

[Emanuel A.]

We have a tip there there is an ambush test going on this weekend. We have been told that someone from Kodak is doing a side by side test where the results "have been pre-determined". The cameras involved are RED, D20, F23 and a 35mm film camera. Should be interesting. By the way, RED was not invited to the test.

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

JimAgreed.

[Martin Ludwig]

I don´t know how many tests I have seen in my life. One is sure - the result of the test depends on the people making the test. So for us we do not believe anything what tests say - we want to see it ourselve.
One thing no test ever has done: handling, power suppy, working in critical situations. We saw a lot of shit shot on the best cameras, and we saw fantastic pictures with cameras we didn´t believe.

[HD Hildebrand]

Sorry Jim, I need a moment to speak very selfishly here - I hope the Kodak test is a resounding success, this way I can off-load some of my 35mm cameras. Ha-ha!

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Let's see how this test turns out. To bad they have to process the film, or else we'd get the results of the test a little sooner....

[regista]

...before they have the results if it involves 35mm film. Will they test them under a film projection model? Or digital projection? Or both?

Will they also test the economies of the digital vs. film workflow? Will they assess the environmental impact footprint of each workflow model? The speed from acquisition to projection? Their archival capabilities?

I don't think so. So, when you consider the above, what is there to test, really?

[Craig Meadows]

You know I distinctly remember a statement from Kodak from a few years ago that said something to the effect that 35mm film (at that time) was still twice the resolution of HD (1080 I am presuming). Guess this 4K thing has them a bit nervous. :)

[Paul Hazlett]

And this is parallel because they both exist in this universe?

i believe Hugh Grant there is refering to the fact that film has also reached its
development limit.

Of course if you shot a 35 feature of a tank round being shot your career would be at its delvelopmental end as well

[number6]

If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim

But aren't you doing essentially the same thing as Kodak? That is, isn't the outcome already pre-determined? Why would the other participants voluntarily show up knowing that if they were beaten, they would have no alibi such as "we weren't there!" I'm thinking they already know about RED (may be reading this post right now) and its capabilities, so why is it in their interest to participate in a pre-determined loss?

[PaulClements]

Hi Jim,

It sounds like a PR stunt from what you've said. You've done the sensible thing by publicly denouncing such activities before the results can get out.

If they now publish something that doesn't fit with actual test results it's only going to reflect badly upon them.

I look forward to your testing of the various cameras with representatives, Jim. Perhaps Mr Mullen could oversee the proceedings as he is a trusted voice of reason amongst most if not all of the main, online, cinematography communities.

Paul

[Graeme Nattress]

Well, if you point all the cameras at a Stouffer backlit wedge tests, a macbeth, and a zone plate, how is there any bias? It would let the chips fall where they land. I'd also shoot a strong light direct into the lens too to look for flares / prism artifacts.

The key thing with any camera or imaging system is knowing it's limits. Know the limits and you can get the best out of it.

Graeme

[dvpixl]

So what if more votes go to film at the end? Will that stop you from furthering your quest to make beautiful images with this beautiful camera?


yes, it's a damn good camera.

[Tom Lowe]

Lol at how fast Admiral Akbar showed up with his classic "It's a trap!" line. :)

I wouldn't worry about this test. As Graeme points out, these are, in theory, scientific tests, and scientific tests are subject to peer review, repeatability, etc.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I think what Jim is proposing is getting the people who really know what the cameras are capable of and doing the tests that way. Considering whoever is putting on the test didn't even invite ANYONE from the RED team seems to me they ARE setting up a pre-determined loss.

How can they test the abilities of the RED camera when the team that has worked so hard on it for the past year and 9 months, the people that know the most about it, aren't even present to operate the camera. It's total BS. It's like me inviting Microsoft to a showdown with Apple, Inc., but not inviting Apple, Inc. to the showdown. Without someone present on the developing team how can you get the most out of the newest and best things from a product?

Jim, you guys are work horses. We know you will do things right. Invite people to do the showdown. It'd be interesting to see if the competition accepts the invitation or not. If they don't, that's when you see your revolution working. They are scared.

[garydxd]

So, what happens when they see the red image and it looks far superior???? Are they going to post those results? Maybe that's why none of the other players were invited. That way, when they lose, they don't have to show anyone the results and can deny the test ever existed!

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I don't think they will... Doesn't Kodak have a reputation of denying the power of digital?
I think they'll try to make 35mm look it's best, and RED it's worst...

RED, on the other hand, already honestly reported that film has a superiour dynamic range, in comparison with the RED camera (although Jim said they would like to increase dynamic range in a later stadium). Although Jim also reported the advantages of RED in comparison with film (but that's another thread, stupid to just repeat)

[Justin Kirchhoff]

There so many more things that can be compared than image superiority. As was stated earlier in this post, we can look at the cost of film processing vs. a DI workflow, the immediacy of work you can produce with each camera, how easy it is to work through menus, etc etc etc.

What if film is superior to RED? RED should be pretty damn close to what Kodak will be offering. Furthermore, lets looks at what all the beta testers, such as Rodney Charters ASC, and Jon Farhat (the Visual Effects supervisor for Wanted, and quote them on their impressions of the RED One system. Both of them compared the film stocks they shoot with on the sets to RED, and they said RED was impressive, and Farhat went on to say that RED had better DR in the highlights than Kodak's best film stock 5218. What they are trying to get out of this test we do not know....and if they find anything scary, I'm sure they won't announce it.

[Greg Voevodsky]

The market place will quickly decide which is "better" not in terms of quality as much in terms of quality for the price. 70mm film is obviously better than 35mm in terms of quality but the price (double) and the size of the camera (bigger) have given it a very small market.

Digital Solutions are getting cheaper and easier than film. Digital still cameras have taken over 35mm still cameras. Digital Editing won. Digital Projection soon to replace film projection and delivery. RED's 2000+ reservations shows more REDs will be sold in 1 year than all the motion picture cameras and high end HD cameras made in history. I'd say the RED TIDE is coming regardless of Kodak's test or 'stunning' stock value from a high of $95 back in 1997 to about $35 now.. Let's see what the RED test does to their stock and film sales... LOL.

[Chris Parker]

I don;t really see how they could 'fix' the result. Unless the DP who is shooting the test is working for Kodak or something. If it is a legit DP with no ties to Kodak who shoots test charts, etc. fairly, I don't see the problem. But, if the fix is in, then of course that is totally lame.

BUT, for me, the point isn't how does the RED compare to 35mm, it's how does it compare to the D20, the Geness, the Viper, the F23, the Varicam, etc. As I said in another thread, the debate shouldn't be film vs. RED (yet....), but RED vs. the other digital cameras out there. If RED can beat them in image, put that with their price, and it is the other digital camera makers that should be shaking at IMMEDIATELY....not Kodak.

[Jannard]

We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim

[Chris Parker]

We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim

Makes total sense.

[Jeremy Torrie]

It would be useful to know how the entire process of the images is played out, from shooting to processing to projection, and whether all are subjected to the same amount of care to obtain the most favorable result. Of course because Jim & co don't know creates disparity...how can anyone advise them of the optimal settings all the way through the process if they can't be in the room?

Sure these clowns can do what they can to cast Red in a lesser light, but once people come to understand the power is literally in their hands at a fraction of the cost -with resolution and ability to manipulate the image, it should be a fait accompli.

Let's face it studios don't necessarily care about what camera is being used. It's a tiny line item when lined up against their P&A budgets. I'd be worried if I was renting an F23, Genesis, or a Viper, or even an F900...they're the ones with the most to lose. Red isn't going to kill 35mm, but it will severely weaken the fiscal strength of the parent companies.

[David Battistella]

We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim


Jim,

When the camera is fully enabled why not send out an open letter to all of the manufactuerers and invite them down to RED to participate in a test. The parameters of the test could be laid out in the letter and the test results could be posted on a website, etc. Someone could be appointed to be the "test ombudsman" to ensure fairness and representation.

Tests are such subjective things and besides image quality, people would want to test and compare workflows, etc. It might be hard to even get everyone in one room to do this test because I think it would be hard to get everyone to agree on what would be tested.

But it would never hurt to invite them all to the party and see who is willing to wear their Sunday best and put the product on the Tripod and hit record.

David

[Antoine Fabi]

We have a tip there there is an ambush test going on this weekend. We have been told that someone from Kodak is doing a side by side test where the results "have been pre-determined". The cameras involved are RED, D20, F23 and a 35mm film camera. Should be interesting. By the way, RED was not invited to the test.

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

Jim


...proof that you're seriously shaking the temple...

thanks for the info.

[Siva Kollipara]

I always do my job well and believe in leaving the end result to the God ( as said by Lord krishna in Bhagavadgeetha).
The comparative test always confuses.
During my school days we used to have unit exams for every 2 months.
In my 9th grade I have shown 100% improvement over the last unit, but in the end they failed me.
In my 10th grade my score performance decreased for every unit, but they said I was the scool second.
9thGrade Marks-(%performance)
Unit-I 1
Unit-II 2(100%)
Unit-III 4(100%)
Unit-IV 8(100%)
Unit-V 16(100%)
Unit-VI 32(100%)


10th Grade Marks (%performance)
Unit-I 86
Unit-II 89(<4%)
Unit-III 91(<3%)
Unit-IV 93(<3%)
Unit-V 93(<2%)
Unit-VI 94(<2%)


Isn't it confusing..?

[Tom Lowe]

Heh. I hope Jannard doesn't become a paranoid Jim-Jones style 4K Messiah... or we might all find ourselves out on his compound in OC one day, being asked to drink some mysterious Red punch... our final hours. :)

[Martin Ludwig]

We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim
the first test I have seen was in germany in the ARRI cinema. Kodak invited for a demonstration between HD and film - this was 2001 - and it was so funny, because the Kodak people didn´t know which was HD and which was film.
Forget all these testings. these tests are stupid - and they will steel your time

[number6]

Jim,

When the camera is fully enabled why not send out an open letter to all of the manufactuerers and invite them down to RED to participate in a test. The parameters of the test could be laid out in the letter and the test results could be posted on a website, etc. Someone could be appointed to be the "test ombudsman" to ensure fairness and representation.

Tests are such subjective things and besides image quality, people would want to test and compare workflows, etc. It might be hard to even get everyone in one room to do this test because I think it would be hard to get everyone to agree on what would be tested.

But it would never hurt to invite them all to the party and see who is willing to wear their Sunday best and put the product on the Tripod and hit record.

David

David, I don't think this would work. After all, RED is still the underdog. Underdogs don't summon. If the other heavyweights were to show up, they would be admitting that RED is at the very least, their equal. Hence, the closed test they have setup in order to discredit RED'S equal-worthiness. It will probably have some effect for awhile of keeping those who do not research, but instead rely on others to research for them, from adopting the RED platform. After they have invested in other technology then they have to remain in that technology for a time to justify its purchase.

That is why we on this forum may be able to sneak into their realm unnoticed. Jim don't like it because he is losing business; and probably just as important, credibility. Personally, I don't like it either because I claim ounership in the culture of RED.

[mezmo]

Hi Guys,
Meet the Kodak marketing team.
Don't be alarmed that they have teeth, why would they
not do somthing like this, film is a business just like digital.
You guys with the blessing of Jim have spent years poo pooing film,
before Red was even a reality.
Don't expect Kodak to roll over just because JJ is now in the acquisition
business. The Eastmen family have been there a lot longer and have
lot deeper pockets.
Kodak have done Cinealta comparison tests in the past and Jim should be chuffed that Kodak consider Red worthwhile and a competitive product.
Being paranoid about this is the wrong approach, the tests will prove that
Red is a different product to Film and that both have a place in the industry.
Big deal. We all knew that anyway. We may not want to admit it but we
all knew it.
Stop the fuss and keep shooting. Mezmo

[Mark L. Pederson]

Jim -

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

Because, they will always insist on their OWN, independent tests.

ANY director, DP, producer, studios executive or production company considering a new format or camera, will always insist on their own tests.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what Kodak's agenda is.

Kodak can shoot all the comparison tests they want. So can RED, Panavsion, Thompson, Panasonic, Sony and Silicon Imaging.

It's all a waste of time.

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Jim -

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

I don´t rally matter to the industry, yet I can attest to that!

[Mark L. Pederson]

I don´t rally matter to the industry

IMHO - (actually my opinion is rarely "humble") so - make that IMO -

The people that MATTER are the ones that LEAD where others FOLLOW.

Therefore, IMO, just being a REDUSER, makes you matter in the industry.

[david farland]

The best normally plan for the worst......

I also think c.net as a collective would like Red to fail or at least receive a bit of a beating.
They like the world as they know it to remain.
That's the weakness of followers!

So when a few brave boys like Scott B step up it's refreshing and I hope more will.
ASC can't throw you a life line either. The ride's just beginning!

You know something else Jim... you really should have someone covering your back on all this!

Good luck Jim,

[David Battistella]

David, I don't think this would work. After all, RED is still the underdog. Underdogs don't summon. If the other heavyweights were to show up, they would be admitting that RED is at the very least, their equal. Hence, the closed test they have setup in order to discredit RED'S equal-worthiness. It will probably have some effect for awhile of keeping those who do not research, but instead rely on others to research for them, from adopting the RED platform. After they have invested in other technology then they have to remain in that technology for a time to justify its purchase.

That is why we on this forum may be able to sneak into their realm unnoticed. Jim don't like it because he is losing business; and probably just as important, credibility. Personally, I don't like it either because I claim ounership in the culture of RED.


Number 6,

I can see this perspective. I think RED is a confident group. The release of "the Argentine" is the test I want to see.

David

[David Battistella]

Jim -

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

Because, they will always insist on their OWN, independent tests.

ANY director, DP, producer, studios executive or production company considering a new format or camera, will always insist on their own tests.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what Kodak's agenda is.

Kodak can shoot all the comparison tests they want. So can RED, Panavsion, Thompson, Panasonic, Sony and Silicon Imaging.

It's all a waste of time.

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

Mark,

You are right. Each production team wants their own security and they gain that by using the stuff and performing their own tests.

Your post hits on everything we need to remember. RED will make it's own stamp.

David

[number6]

Number 6,

I can see this perspective. I think RED is a confident group. The release of "the Argentine" is the test I want to see.

David

Yeah, I agree. There's your test. Shot on a prototype in excessive heat. Makeshift cooling apparatus. That's legendary stuff if it shows well.

[Craig Schober]

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

that sounds great but anybody that matters only make up about 1% of the business. what about all the others? the guys that just want to rent a camera for a music video shoot. or the guys that can't decide between purchasing a pro level cam with interchangeable lenses and the red one. these guys can't afford to put together a giant shootout between the best cameras. they rely on big, pro tests from people like kodak and panavision. they listen to reviews and if they don't, they listen to their colleagues who listen to those reviews. how do you think most people got to reduser? so far all of the red users and reservation holders got here on word of mouth and faith. what makes you think that the average dp is so much more discerning and scientific about their purchases? there are thousands of potential sales out there for such a high quality/low pricepoint product like red one. these sales will buy based upon word of mouth and a few test chart stills because they can. the red team cannot afford to let sales like these go by without a fight. i'm sure once red features trickle out and red shootout tests come to light, we'll start to hear great word of mouth for red and then you'll see sales kick into high gear. 3000+ reservations is just scratching the surface.

[david farland]

The people that matter.........I don't have a clue what that means!

And from whose perspective? Are you talking about Red's perspective who I'm sure enjoy sales with good press?

Maybe you mean the firmly converted reservation holders or maybe its the people that are about to hear, or have heard about Red...and don't buy the camera after hearing about it's poor results in a shoot out.
Or maybe it's the paid up pros who'll listen to the word on the street and then do their own 'try before you buy' stuff.

The point I'm making is everyone matters in some way and saying I don't care about them is well....weird.
Remember for every person that's sure about buying a Red there's another 10 who aren't. There's no harm in furthering market penetration.

It's the rough road Red's gotta tread to get up the top.
You get detractors. They're there for a very good reason.To protect the industry and offset fanboys.
Don't disregard them! Bring 'em on!! The trials/scrutiny/feedback can only make Red better!

Good luck Red team.....


Cheers,


stoppress: Wigby, just read your post.....so ditto !

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'll tell you two things I don't care about.

1) What other indies buy.
2) How well RED does financially.

It's not my place to worry. Jim's got every right to be pissed but I don't understand how some people feel like they're getting pissed on too.

Every chart handed out by a corporate entity is immediately suspect. Doesn't matter if it's from Panavision, Kodak, RED or Ma's Sugar Pills. Marketing is Marketing is Advertising is Lies. Everybody knows that.

Kodak or whoever is going to do their thing and try to hype up their product. RED is going to act righteously indignant at the dishonesty and we're going to take it all with a grain of salt. Everybody is playing their part.

And if I cared I also wouldn't sweat indies making a buying decision on red based on this. They can't afford film and the RED is cheaper than 2/3" HD. Honestly RED can look pretty shitty and still be their best option.

[Jiri Bakala]

That's funny...

[E.J. Sadler]

The cameras involved are RED, D20, F23.

Screw the results, how cool is it that you're on the short list with Arri and Sony with only 50 cameras out the door?

[Mark Thorpe]

Still drinking cool Buds, these 'tests' are just a shortened version of the word Testes which, as we all know, is just a load of old Bollocks........

[Damien Molineaux]

What do we really know about these tests ? They may be for internal use by Kodak to figure out what they're up against, or, to test film outs from those different cameras, or, to find out if Red really is all it claims to be, just so they can prepare themselves. Are any other players (Sony, Arri) invited ? If not, then then Red will not be the only one complaining. Maybe they don't want to invite those companies yet, because when a company comes to present their product they're biased, they know it's strong and weak points, and will make sure the others don't find out about the weak points. I really think it's too early to scream and shout about this. I don't find it suprising or shocking, quite normal actually, so far, depends if and what they announce afterwards.

Cheers,
Damien

[Mark L. Pederson]

that sounds great but anybody that matters only make up about 1% of the business. what about all the others? the guys that just want to rent a camera for a music video shoot. or the guys that can't decide between purchasing a pro level cam with interchangeable lenses and the red one. these guys can't afford to put together a giant shootout between the best cameras. they rely on big, pro tests from people like kodak and panavision. they listen to reviews and if they don't, they listen to their colleagues who listen to those reviews. how do you think most people got to reduser? so far all of the red users and reservation holders got here on word of mouth and faith. what makes you think that the average dp is so much more discerning and scientific about their purchases? there are thousands of potential sales out there for such a high quality/low pricepoint product like red one. these sales will buy based upon word of mouth and a few test chart stills because they can. the red team cannot afford to let sales like these go by without a fight. i'm sure once red features trickle out and red shootout tests come to light, we'll start to hear great word of mouth for red and then you'll see sales kick into high gear. 3000+ reservations is just scratching the surface.

I defined the folks that MATTER as the ones that LEAD where others FOLLOW. And the LEADERS in the industry all do their own tests. Yes, indies and little guys can't afford these huge shoot-outs - but they pay closer attention to WHO is shooting in RED than a SALES PROMOTION PIECE from the FILM STOCK COMPANY.

I seriously doubt that "the guys that just want to rent a camera for a music video shoot" will shoot on super-16mm because they heard about a KODAK comparison test when they heard that THIS HOLLYWOOD DIRECTOR and THAT HOLLYWOOD DIRECTOR and THIS INDIE MAVERICK and THAT INDIE MAVERICK are shooting RED.

[Martin Drew]

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

Jim

Not sure I entirely agree. The best tests are conducted by objective third parties in consultation with suppliers.

M

[oldphart]

What do we really know about these tests ? They may be for internal use by Kodak to figure out what they're up against,...
Cheers,
Damien

That is one reasonable possibility. Another is that they do like the pharmaseutical industry - run a large number of secret tests, and only publish the result if it is favourable.

Kodak is a company that KNOWS one of its most profitable product lines has peaked. They have already told shareholders that they are changing away from being mostly a chemical industry company to an intellignce industry company. They just need to slow the decline from the profitable film peak while they get rid of some plants and people and get new ones with different abilities.

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

As long as these tests result in pretty pictures and or videos I'm all over it.

[Michael Brennan]

Anyone see the BSC test in London on Friday, f23 v f900r v D20 v 35mm v super 16mm (Fuji and Kodak)?



Mike Brennan

[Mark L. Pederson]

I can just see 9 months from ... a new stock from Kodak ....

specifically designed for "film record out from 4K material originating on the RED ONE digital ciname camera" ...

[David Battistella]

I can just see 9 months from ... a new stock from Kodak ....

specifically designed for "film record out from 4K material originating on the RED ONE digital ciname camera" ...

This is a possibility as we will be seeing filmouts on ARRI laser writers for a long time to come.

David

[Jim Arthurs]

I think everyone is missing a major point here...

...You can't possibly test the RED to the best of its ability without the cooporation and participation of the RED Team.

Why?

Images from RED need to be processed through REDCINE or REDALERT. I'd be so bold to suggest that no one with current access to those programs has enough experience yet to tweak out an image to testing perfection. Only someone from the development team could do that, and even then, six months from now the same footage could be re-tweaked for perhaps a better de-bayer or other processing...

With film negative, you can make very reliable measurements of the density, etc. by direct observation. Not so with the raw compressed bayer information. It needs to be manipulated by either coarse or fine processing to explore its properties.

The absolute Gold Standard for the RED is a yet unobtained moving target in the hands of the programmers.

[Christian Edwards]

RED is far more versitile than any !:shifty: ....name your film stock

[REDHKSC]

If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim

Absolutely right Jim, " Fight Big Fights only we have the resources to win " , and we have 2000+ RED one cameras to fight with those " countable " F900 / D20 / F23 ? ( Not delivery yet ? )

Let's preapre for our " RED Glory " ...............................

STEW

[planet e]

i think that was exactly jim's point--can they hold off testing until the features are fully enabled? i'm assuming that includes affiliated software, like REDCINE.

still, what is there to ambush? if RED sticks to its knitting and continues getting endorsements from the likes of soderbergh, jackson, neveldine, etc., with still more to come undoubtedly, then over time, any corrupt testing process is going to end up looking bad, not RED.

most of these tests are quickly forgotten, anyway, as actual users go about their business of choosing cameras and getting their productions done. that's the only test that matters. and, test-schmest, RED is positioned to put up the production numbers to prove the product.

[Damien Molineaux]

I think everyone is missing a major point here...

...You can't possibly test the RED to the best of its ability without the cooporation and participation of the RED Team.

Why?

Images from RED need to be processed through REDCINE or REDALERT. I'd be so bold to suggest that no one with current access to those programs has enough experience yet to tweak out an image to testing perfection. Only someone from the development team could do that, and even then, six months from now the same footage could be re-tweaked for perhaps a better de-bayer or other processing...

With film negative, you can make very reliable measurements of the density, etc. by direct observation. Not so with the raw compressed bayer information. It needs to be manipulated by either coarse or fine processing to explore its properties.

The absolute Gold Standard for the RED is a yet unobtained moving target in the hands of the programmers.

Well, actually that's not quite correct. There is also at least Scratch one can use to process r3d files, and there are a few people out there capable of using a Scratch system. Other applications, although myabe only beta versions, may also be capable of processing r3d files. As to Redcine, according to the article about CTL in "Onfilm", the people that worked did the post probably got some help from Red, but apparently it wasn't Red people that actually processed the footage...

Anyhow, if I had a competing product, I would certainly hold my own tests, before doing public tests, to know what I was up against. Now if they go public and say things that are untrue about the Red One, it's another story. For the time being, Jim just said he had heard about a test going on and that they hadn't been invited. Let's wait and see...

By announcing this test publicly, Jim is actually putting the pressure on them, because if they don't say anything, people will come to the conclusion the tests were not favorable to them (the organizers, Kodak is it ?). If they do make a public statement, they have to be careful, an outright lie would also damage them as it would be obvious they can't compete. This is all a big cat and mouse game, where we don't really know who's the cat and who's the mouse. I guess we should just say : Well done Jim ! (again).

Cheers,
Damien

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Damien,

People make tests every day of the week, it's quite normal. There is no winner ever, depends on what you are looking for that day.

Stephen

[David Battistella]

i think that was exactly jim's point--can they hold off testing until the features are fully enabled? i'm assuming that includes affiliated software, like REDCINE.

still, what is there to ambush?

You wouldn't expect "the competition" to hold off, would you? Do you think they care that the camera is not fully enabled, or that the software is not ready? Playing devils advocate I am sure they are saying, "this is the camera, right? I can rent this for a day, right? It does power up and take pictures, right". Do you think they care about the "ya, buts". I doubt it. This is one risk RED took by releasing a partially enabled camera.

It's like trying to explain a rough cut to someone who doesn't get it. They don't care what it is going to be. They care what it is.

If you want a great laugh, have a listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MNg3sSZ9F8


David

[Gavin Greenwalt]

But by Jim''s own admittance the red will never be finished. Therefore I can't see any justifiable argument that could be made that the camera isn't fair game for testing yet.

If a movie was released in theaters but would get an updated cut every week. The first week's review is perfectly valid.

[Stephen Williams]

You wouldn't expect "the competition" to hold off, would you? Do you think they care that the camera is not fully enabled, or that the software is not ready? Playing devils advocate I am sure they are saying, "this is the camera, right? I can rent this for a day, right? It does power up and take pictures, right". Do you think they care about the "ya, buts". I doubt it. This is one risk RED took by releasing a partially enabled camera.

David

Hi David,

Are talking about production cameras or pre-production cameras here?

Stephen

[Jim Arthurs]

Well, actually that's not quite correct. There is also at least Scratch one can use to process r3d files, and there are a few people out there capable of using a Scratch system. Other applications, although myabe only beta versions, may also be capable of processing r3d files.
Cheers,
Damien

...Do you think the "ambush test" folks, as Jim calls them, will go out of their way to track down the latest build of RED ALERT or get a RED friendly Scratch artist with the beta that supports RED files to do these conversions? I'll bet they'll use that first RED ALERT release, run it at default and call it a day, burning in the extra sharpening and generally not representing the image as well as they could.

My greater point is this... With film, you look-see-measure to determine the various factors you're interested in. A print or telecine isn't necessary to tell latitude, grain structure, or resolution.

With the other tape cameras, you make a series of choices BEFORE you pull the trigger... after that, it's a done deal. Maybe the Digital Tech made the right choices at the time, maybe not, but it's burned in.

With REDCODE RAW you can't begin to evaluate any aspect of the image quality until you've done processing, and the quality of the processing appears to be an evolving target at this point in the development cycle.

Since the Bayer conversion and processing are equally important to the final resolution and look of the camera, no definative testing could be done until the RED Team is happy with their conversion quality. And even then, when processing speed increases, advances in better Bayer conversion would make re-visiting the tests a necessity down the road.

The good news is that you can always revisit the Bayer conversion to tweak the output. The bad news is that you can always revisit the Bayer conversion to tweak the output...

[David Battistella]

Hi David,

Are talking about production cameras or pre-production cameras here?

Stephen

Stephen,

The camera's are "out there" and can be rented. If 1-50 are pre-production camera's then I guess I am talking about those camera's. It's a tough spot for RED to be in right now because obviously you would want to have a fully enabled camera, or at least one of your people present at the test.

Unfortunately because the camera is available but not fully enabled, it's not going to stop people from testing it. Look at how much has been posted right here on these forums.

All RED can control is what they do with their camera and their customers, some people (maybe those who are either threatened or curious) will get their hands on the camera and put it through the ringer. This happens with almost every new camera release.

It's just too bad they do not choose to involve RED but that says something about them. My first question to whoever is doing the testing is: "why wouldn't you, at the very least out of professional courtesy, ask member of the RED project to participate?

I think this is what Jim is asking too.

David

[Jannard]

I have a problem when someone does tests with an agenda and uses our camera with a known and published firmware issue in a "secret test". Some may discount the results, but others will not know the circumstances around the tests. I don't think the plan was to put a footnote saying, "oh, BTW, the RED camera had known firmware issues so discount these tests accordingly".

There is a big difference between continuing to improve the camera and known problems.

Jim

[Stephen Williams]

...Do you think the "ambush test" folks, as Jim calls them, will go out of their way to track down the latest build of RED ALERT or get a RED friendly Scratch artist with the beta that supports RED files to do these conversions? I'll bet they'll use that first RED ALERT release, run it at default and call it a day, burning in the extra sharpening and generally not representing the image as well as they could.



Hi Jim,

For the test to have any credibility amongst working pros, the test has to be done to the best ability of the people carrying out the test. If it's just a marketing ploy it will backfire.

If I am testing a camera for a job next week, I can only evaluate what is available & working today. As more features are enabled then Red will have more advantages, if I need 60 fps & sound tomorrow than a Varicam may well fit the bill. As Geoff Boyle would say Horses for courses.

Stephen

[David Battistella]

But by Jim''s own admittance the red will never be finished. Therefore I can't see any justifiable argument that could be made that the camera isn't fair game for testing yet.

If a movie was released in theaters but would get an updated cut every week. The first week's review is perfectly valid.

Gavin,

My interpretation of Jim's remarks was that the RED project is fluid and that the camera and code can constantly be upgraded and improved. The design of the PROJECT is as modular as the camera.

I took his remarks to mean that they were working toward a very stable platform for the first "Fully Enabled Release", and they would continue to improve the product line. I did not get the sense that the RED project is the "neverendum".

Presumably, they will continue to make camera's and improve the software with monthly or quarterly or yearly updates.

That said, some people are not going to cut you any slack. The camera is released so they will test it. Some might perceive this to be the best time to strike because they see a partially enabled camera as a chink in the armour.

David

[David Battistella]

I have a problem when someone does tests with an agenda and uses our camera with a known and published firmware issue in a "secret test". Some may discount the results, but others will not know the circumstances around the tests. I don't think the plan was to put a footnote saying, "oh, BTW, the RED camera had known firmware issues so discount these tests accordingly".

There is a big difference between continuing to improve the camera and known problems.

Jim

Jim,

I can understand the frustration, but I think that many will understand that there is a lack of professional courtesy on the part of the testers. It's a big industry and it's a very small one at the same time and people know when manufacturers are sandbagging.

That's why so many people have responded to RED's fresh approach which is a professional, courteous and civilized way of doing things.

David

[Jim Arthurs]

Hi Jim,

For the test to have any credibility amongst working pros, the test has to be done to the best ability of the people carrying out the test. If it's just a marketing ploy it will backfire.

Stephen

Hi Stephen, I would agree... however the title of the thread is "Ambush Test", implying that the condition of fairness you suggest may not happen. I'm just working within the conditions suggested here.

Besides, this is relatively new territory here in the world of cameras... where an existing camera could literally be "made better" with a quick upgrade seconds before the test, along with the same happening to the evaluation of the footage after it is shoot. Some testers, if even well intentioned, might not be aware of the latest greatest firmware and applet burn, certainly if they're not in communication with the RED Team.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Stephen, I would agree... however the title of the thread is "Ambush Test", implying that the condition of fairness you suggest may not happen. I'm just working within the conditions suggested here.

Besides, this is relatively new territory here in the world of cameras... where an existing camera could literally be "made better" with a quick upgrade seconds before the test, along with the same happening to the evaluation of the footage after it is shoot. Some testers, if even well intentioned, might not be aware of the latest greatest firmware and applet burn, certainly if they're not in communication with the RED Team.

Hi Jim,

Bear in mind many Sony cameras perform rather badly 'out of the box', and negative film benefits from slight overexposure.

As a born skeptic, I take all information I receive with a pinch of salt until I can verify it with my own eyes. I always test, evaluate the results, then test again using the knowledge gained from the first tests. Only then do I understand what needs to be tweaked & retested.

Stephen

[David Battistella]

Hi Stephen, I would agree... however the title of the thread is "Ambush Test", implying that the condition of fairness you suggest may not happen. I'm just working within the conditions suggested here.

Besides, this is relatively new territory here in the world of cameras... where an existing camera could literally be "made better" with a quick upgrade seconds before the test, along with the same happening to the evaluation of the footage after it is shoot. Some testers, if even well intentioned, might not be aware of the latest greatest firmware and applet burn, certainly if they're not in communication with the RED Team.


Jim,

The other important note here is that RED is redefining things a bit. You do not really download firmware and upgrade the picture quality of shot footage with any other motion picture camera.

The same way film benefits from digital technology years after it was exposed (improvements to film scanning technology), RED footage can and will benefit from new releases of the RED codec.

I'm not sure everyone has fully wrapped their head around this yet as we have become accustomed to putting things on tape and (with the exception of a few DV codec improvements) it never ever being anything more or better.

[mezmo]

Hi Guys,
My guess is that Kodak will do the usual thing of producing
a split screen 2.35:1 35mm print,Red one side,film the other.
Red will have to go thru a film-out process and probably get
eaten here because Kodak film taken thru the total photochemical post
path looks stunning. This old trick works really well up against
digital and you get to see film in all it's intended glory.
They invite in studio exec's and producers, DP's. Lots of free
beer and food (that's why I go) and some pretty girls to hand out
free promo stuff, sunglasses (that's right Jim) T shirts and office
stuff, pens, phone books, and even DOF calculators.
Red could do this as well, I'm sure the freeby stuff would be a lot
better quality, my Kodak sunglasses lasted for one day on a shoot.
I digress, My point is that most DP's like me go to these things for
the free booze and to see old friends.
DP's tend to make their own minds up on the choice of camera for
a job and then test the camera for that job.
For me the reason for using Red would have nothing to do with film.
Mezmo

[Graeme Nattress]

What amazes me, is that Kodak have some superb digital sensor technology and have not done anything in digital cinema with it.....

I attended a SMPTE event in Toronto back in 2001 I think where it was HDCAM v Film, and a lot of education about HDCAM. Very interesting. Even back then HDCAM was very good in comparison to Film.

Graeme

[chuck colburn]

Mezmo

Tests are good. As Stephen said.

[Seung Han]

If they find issues with RED and publish via print or internet early enough at this initial stage it will be out there for people who just don't like Red to refer back to in their arguments or it will plant the first 'official' seeds of doubt for non-techie people who first start researching Red, like producers and directors especially in foreign non English speaking countries.

The reason I say this is because I see how much information in English gets distorted before it becomes available in Korean in Korea. I see it all the time in a wide range of topics, I have already seen it with misinformation on the Red in a Korean video magazine.

Things get twisted and stuck in people's heads early enough then its hard to dislodge that first impression no matter how ill conceived it was...

If I spent as much time as the Red Team did on this camera and knew so many people in the industry were skeptical to the point of antagonism, I would be fairly concerned about bias testing.

[duckgrossberg]

I am confused. I am reading through all of these posts and I am noticing there is no solid evidence that anyone is trying to make RED look bad!?! Does any one have any first hand knowledge that this is actually happening and if you do please site your source.

[justshootalready]

We have a tip there there is an ambush test going on this weekend. We have been told that someone from Kodak is doing a side by side test where the results "have been pre-determined".
Jim

The only person that would know of a test like this is the person shooting it. I would be suprised if a company like kodak would risk cheating the results. There are too many skillled individuals that can see with their own eyes and have no problem calling it like it is.

[Jannard]

The details have been posted on CML.

Jim

[Jannard]

The only person that would know of a test like this is the person shooting it.

And the people he talks to... hypothetically speaking.

Jim

[justshootalready]

The American Society of Cinematographers looked to protect the future of quality large screen presentation and volunteered participating in the DCI spec for digital projection where they brought up the whole issue that 4K is needed when there were no 4K cameras or projectors. That's took a lot of guts to demand it when the manufacturers said it was not fesiable. Those cinematographers would be able to judge the results of such a test and know if the results "have been pre-determined".

[Jannard]

Funny you should say that... an ASC member also tipped us off to the "shootout". Said we should "watch our back".

Biggest problem is that we informed the crew shooting that we had an issue with the firmware on that camera (see post from a day before the shoot where I delayed the delivery of anymore cameras for a firmware issue) and they wanted the RED camera to shoot anyway. We couldn't quite figure that one out. And since it was a secret shoot, we weren't invited to make sure the RED performed at its best.

Jim

[justshootalready]

And the people he talks to... hypothetically speaking.

Jim

This person who is shooting this so called test must need a soap box for his or her ego to be considered some kind of expert on image capture and cinematography. The motive is not the good of all but to just to up their day rate on regular shoots because they look on themselves as an expert.

I hope we find out who is the shooter because they are not doing themselves or the motion picture industry any good by participating in this. All I can see is personal gain by stirring the pot.

[Steve Sherrick]

I have a problem when someone does tests with an agenda and uses our camera with a known and published firmware issue in a "secret test". Some may discount the results, but others will not know the circumstances around the tests. I don't think the plan was to put a footnote saying, "oh, BTW, the RED camera had known firmware issues so discount these tests accordingly".

There is a big difference between continuing to improve the camera and known problems.

Jim

I understand the frustration there Jim. To me, it's a short term problem. One that has to be taken seriously, because if the test is conducted in a way that intentionally tries to hurt the Red branding by using prerelease firmware or things of that nature, then that could have an impact on the camera's reputation. Long term however, I see Red being just fine because the proof will be when the Red feature films start hitting the screen. Then people will be able to make more accurate judgements. In fact, as more cameras are released, and professionals are able to get their hands on them, word of mouth will prevail there too if people are happy with the results.

Graeme made a good point about Kodak and their sensor technology. That's what I had alluded to earlier. That to me would be where they should be heading with all of this. Then they could spend less time focusing on film vs video and more time on introducing additional revenue streams, i.e. Digital cinema technology.

Steve

[mdo]

Funny you should say that... an ASC member also tipped us off to the "shootout". Said we should "watch our back".

Biggest problem is that we informed the crew shooting that we had an issue with the firmware on that camera (see post from a day before the shoot where I delayed the delivery of anymore cameras for a firmware issue) and they wanted the RED camera to shoot anyway. We couldn't quite figure that one out. And since it was a secret shoot, we weren't invited to make sure the RED performed at its best.

Jim

God help them if they try to make something out of that.

[David Mullen ASC]

Joe diGennaro, who announced on the CML that he is the cameraman hired to shoot the test, is a fine person, friends with Scott Billups and many CML members, and shot early tests of the Viper that he then wrote about for ICG Magazine and other magazines.

He is very pro-digital and has no agenda against RED or any manufacturer and will be sure to shoot the test in a fair and unbiased manner. I've known Joe for years and can vouch for his integrity and knowledge. And obviously he is not doing this out of ego but because he is a professional shooter, because he's interested in the RED camera, and because he's done these sorts of tests before with other digital cameras. He only publically mentioned that he was shooting the test because of these accusations that he was involved in some sort of rigged test.

Now obviously Kodak is curious too about the RED, and obviously they will want to shoot subject matter that tests the limits of digital capture, i.e. high-contrast situations, where they suspect that color negative has a probable advantage, and no one should be surprised by that, they done similar comparison tests with previous digital cameras... and anyone should take anyone else's tests with a grain of salt anyway, especially since there will be further improvements to the RED camera.

I'm not saying that the Kodak test will be optimal for the RED, nor that it is an agenda-free test (they are a film stock company afterall), but on the other hand, as in the past, remember that any test that Kodak shows comparing their product favorably against a digital competitor will be accused of bias and being a marketing ploy automatically.

The camera is now out there for public use, so these sorts of things are going to happen, so it's up to the consumer to educate themselves as to how to evaluate other people's tests and to not make final judgements until they shoot their own tests. That has been true in the past with film technology and it is true today with digital technology.

I can tell you this -- the people over at Kodak over the years that I've met are all nice, and one of the things they constantly get hit with at public events, trade shows, cocktail conversations, etc. is why they don't "go after digital" more aggressively when they know they have a good product. A lot of people ask them to take the gloves off and stop rolling over and playing dead against the digital juggernaut. So depending on which "camp" you're in, if you are in a camp, either Kodak is going too far with this test or not far enough. In other words, they are in a no-win scenario.

I'm not sure why Jim is so worried that a Kodak test is going to show Kodak in a favorable manner at the expense of RED when the majority of people in the industry would expect such a result from a Kodak demo anyway and thus view it with suspicion. Are people really waiting for Kodak's blessing on the RED camera before they buy one?

[Häakon]

The camera is now out there for public use, so these sorts of things are going to happen, so it's up to the consumer to educate themselves as to how to evaluate other people's tests and to not make final judgements until they shoot their own tests. That has been true in the past with film technology and it is true today with digital technology.
That's a really good point, David. It also provides more motivation for the RED team to keep hammering away at that firmware to improve the stability and featureset at the best pace they possibly can. I do wonder, however, if Joe is an honorable man and avid digital shooter, why he would purposely reject the latest firmware build for the test? Perhaps signals are just getting crossed in heresay?

[Desert Rune]

I wonder when the BBC will test the RED camera...

They are likely more credible than Kodak. Kodak should stop wasting their time doing this test and put their resources towards building imaging chips or whatever it is that they should be doing for the 21st century if they hope to continue as a company for the next one hundred years.

[Jannard]

David... I have been told by many people in the past few hours how honorable Joe is and I have no doubt about his integrity. But Joe is not in charge. I just have a couple of questions.

Why was this test done in secrecy and camera equipment rented under false pretenses (an Apple commercial)... so I have been told.

Why was the DP insistent on continuing to shoot RED when informed that we had a firmware problem that has caused the delay of shipping more cameras?

Why did I get a tip from an ASC member and another "on set" person that this was an ambush?

Why was the RED tech heckled at the shoot when investigating the firmware issue?

I understand that RED has been shipped and we are now subject to testing and scrutiny. But the circumstances of this one seem suspect at minimum.

Many observers will discount the results for several reasons. But many more will look to the 1st "shootout" as the definitive word. Especially since it is all they have to go on.

We are passionate about our efforts. Maybe to a fault. I just don't want RED and the RED team to get hit below the belt.

Jim

[David Mullen ASC]

Jim, you can't control everything that goes on outside once the camera goes public -- these sorts of whacky, controversial tests, demos, whatever, have happened with EVERY major digital camera to hit the market, and will happen in the future. Just look at the variable quality of the footage posted here -- I certainly don't take everything I see shot on the RED as some sort of final word, good or bad. If there are some lazy people who will take the Kodak test as the final word on the RED camera, well, you can only fight idiocy so far with your own public efforts.

But honestly, the negative effects from a Kodak demo that shows that its product is superior will be temporary, ephemoral -- ultimately, the quality of your product will be out there in many forms, in many products and projects, on the big and little screen, for all to see and judge. It will be an avalanche compared to one Kodak demo.

Besides, next week, it will be some Sony test shoot trying to show the superiority of the F23 to the RED that you'll be dealing with... and after that, maybe a Dalsa or Phantom shoot-out.

Checking out equipment under a false production title name is not uncommon, in order to avoid feared publicity, onlookers, whatever. I just shot a whole feature under a false title because they didn't want to get refused permission to shoot by sensitive locations due to a controversial title.

[Martin Ludwig]

We are passionate about our efforts. Maybe to a fault. I just don't want RED and the RED team to get hit below the belt.

Jim

Jim, but this is what the all other companies will do in the next time. They only will look for faults and they will do comparisons not in a fair and objective way - they will try everything to make your work bad. This is the movie and television industry - even we as a rental, holding 5 reservations since NAB 06 can feel that in many ways.
I am sure you and your team is strong enough to "survive" these silly attacks.

[Jannard]

I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn about this industry...

Jim

[peter roehsler]

We have been `framed´ ...
It´s an ugly spin technique (thanks to the NLP folks): if they say your sister is a slut, it will not suffice to proove that you have no sister. You will spend the rest of the argument trying to tell the truth. But this has nothing to with logic: camera update refused - who cares; wrong decisions when ´correcting´ footage - nobody will ever know. The only way out will be to frame them in reverse and take the lead from there: Kodak wants to sell film, right? Kodak acknowledges Panavision and Arri as digital players, as they have film and digital cameras. Kodak cannot `overlook´ Sony, as they are too big for that. All three of them pose no threat, as only Sony sells their F23 cameras and they serve a tiny market. In comes RED and spoils the game. Camera is dirt cheap in comparison and will rip the market open from top to bottom. Bigtime Hollywood directors are already working with it, wedding photographers are pondering the investment. This IS serious.
May I therefore suggest some mantras for reverse framing:
Kodak just wants to sell film stock.
Kodak is an old company.
Kodak missed the digital revolution.
Kodak does not see the future.
Kodak is desperate.
... and so on.
(This should be what you get for biased testing)
I am totally for testing from an idependent side - after all, we all want to know where we stand. Any test by ASC and/or SMPTE will be highly appreciated. A ´shootout´ is a shortlived news item, nothing more.

[Álex Montoya]

Well, the sole fact that RED is part of the test is an acknowledgement that it ALREADY is a major player. That it is an option in the big league and that for a fraction of the price of a F23.

[david farland]

David,

Agreed with everything you said!!

With the greatest respect it’s ok to commentate on what others are doing and raise biases/pick flaws in their processes. All the time people do this….they talk about a free world, mention the unfairness of it all & continue to talk about it not being right.....even knowing/thinking all the time it’s not their fight…!!

They’ll then do one of 2 things………


Cheers,

[explosive]

May I therefore suggest some mantras for reverse framing:
Kodak just wants to sell film stock.
Kodak is an old company.
Kodak missed the digital revolution.
Kodak does not see the future.
Kodak is desperate.
... and so on.

To do this is a horrible idea as it would make RED no better than those trying to attack them.

This is not the kind of image that Red should want to portray. Attacking illogic with further illogic.

[Martin Ludwig]

I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn about this industry...

Jim

stay tuned as before ...

[explosive]

We are passionate about our efforts. Maybe to a fault. I just don't want RED and the RED team to get hit below the belt.
Jim

Jim,

May I make one suggestion to you. Do what Henry Ford would do in this situation:

*Write a short scene.
*Rent Panavision Genesis Camera, Arri d20, a 950 and a 35mm camera ASAP.
*Bring your RED ONE along as well.
*Edit the footage.
*Get the community to help you with what they can (cameramen, editors etc etc). WE know you guys are busy.
*Release the comparison Footage on the RED website before they do.

I am sure that there are several hundred people willing to help shoot, test, edit, compare. Worthy to-be owners.

All that is needed is the cost for the other cameras, but it is a small cost to pay in my opinion to be the first FAIR full comparison test out there.

It can be done. And it would be worth it.

[Darwin]

Jim,

May I make one suggestion to you. Do what Henry Ford would do in this situation:

*Write a short scene.
*Rent Panavision Genesis Camera, Arri d20, a 950 and a 35mm camera ASAP.
*Bring your RED ONE along as well.
*Edit the footage.
*Get the community to help you with what they can (cameramen, editors etc etc). WE know you guys are busy.
*Release the comparison Footage on the RED website before they do.

I am sure that there are several hundred people willing to help shoot, test, edit, compare. Worthy to-be owners.

All that is needed is the cost for the other cameras, but it is a small cost to pay in my opinion to be the first FAIR full comparison test out there.

It can be done. And it would be worth it. Sad But...I agree hit them hard and fast.

[robinbuday]

Call me crazy but I just went over to the CML website and I can't find any indication that RED was included in their last test. Did I miss something here? Did they opt not to include it or am I just not looking in the right place?

[Laco Zamba]

Call me crazy but I just went over to the CML website and I can't find any indication that RED was included in their last test. Did I miss something here? Did they opt not to include it or am I just not looking in the right place?
CML is at www.cinematography.net - http://ls.cinematography.net/read/all_forums/

www.cinematography.com is something else

[Andrew Benz]

Hi Robin,

You are not crazy. Here is the info... though two things first for all RED USERS
1. Do not download everything... please be considerate it costs Geoff alot money to operate CML.

2. Do not mirror without his permission... he may appreciate a mirror though.

Site: ftp.cinematography.net or 89.31.209.180

User: upload-8z67c2
Pass: B!ll-Brandt2

Note the exclamation mark.

Hope this helps Robin.

Cheers,

Andrew

[david farland]

Guys...you can't do that!......you can't run a quick and dirty test right now!!

If you want to discredit them you've gotta be EVERYTHING they aren't.

...it's not a game of tennis!!

They're playing the industry game and got lucky with some kudos from being the first external recognised test.
Wasn't hard to do. It was just sitting there saying get me!

Kodak or anyone will do these tests out of self-interest..........others will to do it for themselves and hopefully for you!

Cheers,

[explosive]

Guys...you can't do that!......you can't run a quick and dirty test right now!!


How about just quick? :)

[Álex Montoya]

According to their test, the camera would have roughly 8 stops of latitude. I wonder if they did develop the RAW file well.

[Álex Montoya]

And I don't know how to read the resolution test. Anyway, I guess the chart could have been better framed

[Simon Blackledge]

Anyone got a link please.

Thanks

Si

[Ramesh Jai]

Ambush Jambush. Forgetaboutit. Nothing is going to change my mind. And I think I speak for a lot of you here.

[explosive]

According to their test, the camera would have roughly 8 stops of latitude. I wonder if they did develop the RAW file well.

How do you figure?

[Álex Montoya]

But this test is different from the Kodak one, right?

[Andrew Benz]

Anyone got a link please.

Thanks

Si

The KODAK Tests are not up yet to my knowledge... though this was the cml test

Hi flameop... please look at post #162.

Great Showreel btw

[Álex Montoya]

How do you figure?
Take the REDONE30-20070915-T4110-Log.tif file and play with levels to disclose how many steps are in the highlights. Count them and divide by three.

[Andrew Benz]

But this test is different from the Kodak one, right?

Hi Concrete,

Yes, you are correct.

[Álex Montoya]

If I am not mistaken, the resolution test, when correctly framed, would give around 2800*1400 pixels

[Karl H]

yeh i count around 22 steps (7-8 stops?), depending on how forgiving you want to be at the noisy end.

This one is not the ambush test though, right?

[Graeme Nattress]

1st stouffers that I've seen have the numbers printed on them. Makes life much easier.

2nd they're calibrated in optical density. You need the calibration numbers to get an accurate reading.

3rd - easiest way to see what's going on is to measure what level black is, which is easy in photoshop, just look at the un-exposed region to the right. Now drag over to the left, until you reach that same number. In photoshop, counting squares is hard. Measure the width of a square with the ruler tool. Measure the length from the end of the fully exposed square to the point where you reach the black level again. Divide one by the other, and then by 3 as they're nominally 1/3 stop wedges.

What's nice, and what Adam should have included is a linear light export, as then you can do a log / log plot of intensity v wedge value and track sensory linearity. That's what I do when I measure stuff.

Graeme

[Jannard]

Are you guys taking about the posted test results done last year by David Stump that were done with the bad setting? Be very careful not to get confused with these tests results. When were they done? Who did them? What are the notes from the tests? We will post test results (as soon as we fix our firmware issue... and the note will read, "if you aren't getting results as good as these, you are doing something wrong."

Jim

[Jannard]

Here is the answer to one of the questions I posed to the Kodak team.

<<Why would the RED camera continue to be shot when we had informed the group that we had known firmware issues that could affect image quality under certain conditions?>> question from Jim

Answer... Well, Jim.... In the past, David Stump has been quoted as saying “You can always tell the pioneers... They’re the ones face down in the prairie with arrows in their backs”

That pretty much sounds like an ambush to me.

Jim

[Graeme Nattress]

Jim, the above referred tests are on the CML ftp site. They were done recently on camera 30 by Adam Wilt with James Mathers.

Graeme

[Martin Ludwig]

Here is the answer to one of the questions I posed to the Kodak team.

<<Why would the RED camera continue to be shot when we had informed the group that we had known firmware issues that could affect image quality under certain conditions?>> question from Jim

Answer... Well, Jim.... In the past, David Stump has been quoted as saying “You can always tell the pioneers... They’re the ones face down in the prairie with arrows in their backs”

That pretty much sounds like an ambush to me.

Jim

welcome in the reality...

[peter roehsler]

Hi Explosive,

I guess you are absolutely right about staying classy - my bad. But Jim´s post with Kodak´s reply (whose there?) to his inquiry makes it quite difficult.

peter

[S. Um]

Jim,

The competition is always going to try to show that they're better than you in any way they can. I think you want to show that you're better, too. That's normal. As David Mullens mentioned earlier, people know that tests done by Kodak are biased. You did the right thing by bringing up the issues before the test. But since the cameras are public, it's up to them to decide whether or not to go ahead even with bad firmware. You don't control that. But what you can do is get up off that prairie and go kick some ass with a great product and your own unbiased tests. Not all pioneers are faced down on the prairie, or we wouldn't have this great nation of ours.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Here is the answer to one of the questions I posed to the Kodak team.

<<Why would the RED camera continue to be shot when we had informed the group that we had known firmware issues that could affect image quality under certain conditions?>> question from Jim

Answer... Well, Jim.... In the past, David Stump has been quoted as saying “You can always tell the pioneers... They’re the ones face down in the prairie with arrows in their backs”

That pretty much sounds like an ambush to me.

Jim

I don't think that's a fair representation of the rest of the answers. Since the responder had no motivation or personal vested interest in seeing RED fail it's not fair to call that response indicative of Kodak's motivations. If anything it's a personal supposition on the part of the shooter and no real conclusions can be drawn from it.

You have a product out in the wild. People are going to test it. If it had been an apple commercial and the camera wasn't ready then it shouldn't have been released to shoot anything. There'll be more tests. Tests that aren't funded or orchestrated by a single vested interest. Until then it's just marketing chatter.

[Jannard]

If it had been an apple commercial and the camera wasn't ready then it shouldn't have been released to shoot anything.

If it had been an Apple commercial, we would have been invited to make sure the camera performed well and we could supervise the firmware workarounds. Or we would have told them not to use RED this weekend based on what we learned last Thursday.

Jim

[Gregory Leno]

I don't think that's a fair representation of the rest of the answers. Since the responder had no motivation or personal vested interest in seeing RED fail it's not fair to call that response indicative of Kodak's motivations. If anything it's a personal supposition on the part of the shooter and no real conclusions can be drawn from it.

You have a product out in the wild. People are going to test it. If it had been an apple commercial and the camera wasn't ready then it shouldn't have been released to shoot anything. There'll be more tests. Tests that aren't funded or orchestrated by a single vested interest. Until then it's just marketing chatter.

I have to agree here with Gavin. Jim the tone of the responder was far different than you are representing.
I am as loyal a fan of your camera as they come (not to metion also a reservation holder). But, with all due respect, your responses surrounding this issue have only served to alienate people from the truth rather than help them to discover it.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Maybe I'm a bit lost but I thought the firmware problems were related to:
Monitor reliability, crashes and clip protection. Was there another problem specifically that needed to be avoided? None of those three would affect image quality.

[Jannard]

I have to agree here with Gavin. Jim the tone of the responder was far different than you are representing.
I am as loyal a fan of your camera as they come (not to metion also a reservation holder). But, with all due respect, your responses surrounding this issue have only served to alienate people from the truth rather than help them to discover it.

You are probably right about this snipet... it is out of context. But I saw no reason to repost the whole question and answer thread from CML. My apologies. I said there that many people had confirmed that Joe is a great guy. But all of the answers to the questions still pointed to a setup. And this did not seem like a very good response to the serious question that I had asked.

Gavin... you are almost correct. But we had discovered last week that there is a situation with the build where compression issues we had been working on got worse, not better, with this new build. You would not necessarily see these problems in "normal" shooting, but they would certainly become apparent in a test situation. When Jarred went to the set to verify the build in the camera, it was apparent that the heckling did not come from a friendly place. I do not believe Joe was there at the time.

I had received a tip from an ASC member, along with one from an insider on the set that privately told me we were being setup. The sentence I posted from Joe was not fair. But the frustration we have felt from this weekend is real. I'd also mention that while Joe was hired to watch over the digital cameras... he was not in charge of this shoot or the results that were to be posted.

Jim

[Michael Schrengohst]

You guys should see Adam Wilt's shoot out last year between all
the HDV/HVX cameras. I know for a fact that someone bought a
JVC HDV camera because of the results of those tests. That person
has since sold the JVC because of the incompatiblity problems of HDV tapes.
He would do a shoot for someone and hand over the tape and
90% of the time the clients could not get the JVC tapes to playback
in a Sony or Panasonic deck. Those cameras are fine if you are
in a closed loop. I can shoot on my HVX and hand a hard drive
full of footage to a client and they can about 95% of the time
get the files to work. I would much rather have data now than a tape.
Will or can I use the RED 100% of the time? Probably not.
But I know I will not have to rent expensive decks to get my footage
into my NLE of choice.

[Gregory Leno]

You are probably right about this snipet... it is out of context. But I saw no reason to repost the whole question and answer thread from CML. My apologies. I said there that many people had confirmed that Joe is a great guy. But all of the answers to the questions still pointed to a setup. And this did not seem like a very good response to the serious question that I had asked.

Gavin... you are almost correct. But we had discovered last week that there is a situation with the build where compression issues we had been working on got worse, not better, with this new build. You would not necessarily see these problems in "normal" shooting, but they would certainly become apparent in a test situation. When Jarred went to the set to verify the build in the camera, it was apparent that the heckling did not come from a friendly place. I do not believe Joe was there at the time.

I had received a tip from an ASC member, along with one from an insider on the set that privately told me we were being setup. The sentence I posted from Joe was not fair. But the frustration we have felt from this weekend is real. I'd also mention that while Joe was hired to watch over the digital cameras... he was not in charge of this shoot or the results that were to be posted.

Jim

Thank You Jim,

This is the kind of response I would expect from someone who is a quaility person and has a quality product...and both are true.

That said, I also completely understand the frustration at being setup and ambushed if that is the case. I can think of few things worse than being misrepresented. It goes to the core of who someone is..or isn't.

Thanks again for clarifying the issue.

~ Greg

[David Battistella]

When Jarred went to the set to verify the build in the camera, it was apparent that the heckling did not come from a friendly place.

Jim

It's wild. You guys had people on the set of the Argentine all summer as they shot a MAJOR MOTION PICUTRE and I am sure they welcomed the help your team was providing.

Jarred shows up to a CAMERA TEST and gets heckled. What a joke! It's plain unprofessional.

David

[Andy Romanoff]

In a CML post regarding the "Ambush' tests the poster claims that lying to get cameras was necessary because Panavision does not do head to head tests. Here is our response.

Panavision’s position on the “Ambush’ tests

Let’s begin with Bill Bennett’s assertion that Panavision has refused to be involved in “Apples to Apples” comparisons. This is not true! Tony Richmond ASC tested Genesis against D20 before shooting “The Comebacks” with Genesis. Steven Poster ASC shot extensive tests with Genesis, F23, Viper and 900R recently for a picture shooting in November (and also shot Kodak’s new stock separately a few days before) and Darius Wolski ASC tested Genesis against film a few weeks ago – probably going film. What Panavision does not do is participate in tests where the outcome is clouded by the parties involved or where there is no real project involved. Actually, there are exceptions even to that. We have agreed to participate in the Academy’s testing program and are actively working with them to help create fair and meaningful tests. We have also agreed to give Geoff Boyle a camera for testing since he has consistently demonstrated a rigorous regard for “truth”.



Next, let’s talk about the tests themselves. Testing cameras is a very tricky business. The camera doesn’t finish the image it is only the first step in the chain. This has always been true but for many years masked by the fact that little could be done to the film after shooting. Recent advances have changed the situation radically. Today, the image is finished not on the set but in post and this is true regardless of the medium. Among the questions this raises are; who is supervising the post? Where is the post being done? Do they have the competence to present all the images in their best manner? What is the desired outcome of the posting process? What is the final form of presentation (film or digital) and how well will it be calibrated? What would you think when someone who is willing to lie to get equipment is also the person creating the image and further when it is being done for parties that have a stake in the outcome?



Finally, perhaps Jim Jannard has done us all a service by blowing the whistle on this test. Secret tests with hidden agendas serve no one except the ones doing them. Panavision welcomes testing in a free and open manner for every kind of project.



Andy Romanoff

EVP Technical Marketing & Strategy - Panavision Inc.

President - Panavision Remote Systems

Ph 818-316-2280

[Jannard]

Andy... it is nice to have you post here. I see that we are not alone on this one. I am sure all members of reduser appreciate hearing your point of view and Panavision's perspective to proper testing of equipment.

Your post actually helps me quite a bit. I'm looking much less paranoid now. Thanks. :-)

Jim

[David Battistella]

See,

Everyone wants things to be fair!

:)

David

[Martin Ludwig]

See,

Everyone wants things to be fair!

:)

David

not everyone - but the most...

[Joel Kaye]

See,
Everyone wants things to be fair!


Panavision and RED want things to be fair from what I can see here. I'm not sold that "everyone" else does too.

[IAN SUN]

Well, lets look forward to some rigorous and impartial body conducting a test that includes the RED ONE, once RED releases what they consider a stable firmware build.
Hopefully that is soon.

[McDiver]

Suddenly Kodak looks like a yellow $2 disposable camera. Yawn.

[Sanjin Jukic]

After all definitely RED is winning any sort of today's and tomorrow “Ambush’ tests.

[Stephen Williams]

After all definitely RED is winning any sort of today's and tomorrow “Ambush’ tests.

Hi,

Yes I see what your saying, don't bother to test a Red because it is better in every possible situation!

You don't have any hidden agenda do you?

Stephen

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Nice to see the people from Panavision replying here also!
Thanks for making the effort!

[Graeme Nattress]

Thanks Andy - your thoughts on this are appreciated.

Graeme

[Finner]

Hi,

Yes I see what your saying, don't bother to test a Red because it is better in every possible situation!

You don't have any hidden agenda do you?

Stephen

Of course Stephen because so many of the members that are stateing how much better red is then any other camera on earth have shot with reds under so many circumstances again and again that they know exactly how they react under every circumstance.

[Graeme Nattress]

For camera testing, I advocate DIY. There's no one that measures or uses cameras like you, so DIY is the very best option.

Finner - good comment - you've got to learn how everything reacts in different circumstances. I've done that with every camera I've bought. It's the only way to get the best out of them.

Graeme

[Mark Thorpe]

Jarred shows up to a CAMERA TEST and gets heckled. What a joke! It's plain unprofessional. .....and Ballsy to say the least. I mean, have you seen Jarred? I haven't but by all accounts he makes The Rock look like The Pebble!!......:w00t:

[Steve Sherrick]

This is such a slippery slope. I can see Jim's point of view on this. They have been as honest and open as a company can be when it comes to developing a new product. They are just looking for the same respect back. Problem is, not all companies are going to play that way, just a fact of life.

David, Stephen, Finner, and others have touched on what I think is the most important thing here. Camera testing comes down to the individual(s) who is going to be using it, the requirements of the production, and the aesthetic of the production. That's why film is not going away tomorrow. It still fits people's needs on various productions, whether Red is out there or not. To me, the beauty of Red is they have provided us (and I'm referring to everyone that wants to use this camera, pros and amateurs alike) another artistic tool to turn to. Maybe you will shoot all of your projects with it, maybe some, maybe none, but it is there. It will have a quality of its own. I truly believe that Jim and the rest of the team has nothing to worry about if they make the camera as wonderful as we all hope it will be. Their success will rely on what they deliver. I think the camera is currently still in an evolutionary state, and will surely improve and when it does, they will reap the benefits of their labor.

I hope a secret test doesn't get in the way of that evolution. There are a lot of people looking forward to shooting with it.

Regards,
Steve

[Seung Han]

I think from Jim's perspective it is a little strange that anybody and I mean anybody who is using the camera right now for any situation would not want support from Red to get the best possible results is just strange and I don't think he's being paranoid at all. Think about all the time, energy and effort a few people have put into this project to get the best images the customer can.

The reason I am saying this is because from what I read on this board, it seems like every person who is holding a Red camera right now has direct access to the top people on Red and they seem to be using this communication to get help with this new piece of hardware/technology. Both sides understand it is in its infancy as Jim has stated numerous times. If this open channel exists at this stage, why would anyone who is using the camera for whatever purpose not take advantage of it? It is simply counter-intuituve in terms of shooting with the camera, test or no test...

[Michael Stanmore]

I'm pretty concerned about this sort of nastiness, but I can at least say that there are plenty of us who are really spreading the word about Red, I brought a small contingent of filmmakers from the UK across to IBC to have a look. They were all impressed and will continue to spread the word. Hopefully for every article that attempts to kneecap the Red, there'll be those of us countering it.

[Martin Ludwig]

Hopefully for every article that attempts to kneecap the Red, there'll be those of us countering it.

let the people do what they want to do and want to say. There are enough people convinced by Red, and many other doubting on Red.
When we startet HD in 2001 (sorry for that, but the germans are a little late with new technologies) with our first HDW F900 we had a lot of dp´s refusing to touch this camera. hree years later they came back asking for workshops and jobs on HD....
Give the poor people some time... they have to learn, and they will learn.

[laguun]

let the people do what they want to do and want to say. There are enough people convinced by Red, and many other doubting on Red.
When we startet HD in 2001 (sorry for that, but the germans are a little late with new technologies) with our first HDW F900 we had a lot of dp´s refusing to touch this camera. hree years later they came back asking for workshops and jobs on HD....
Give the poor people some time... they have to learn, and they will learn.

same experience here in berlin, we started with our HDCAM cameras in 2002.
I however think that the rental price for reds bodys will be pretty low soon, reflecting their lower purchase price, and that will certainly help making the camera very popular.

One thing is really funny: Meanwhile there are the first dps which were anti-hdcam/cinealta, and only film was good in 2002... Some of them now are anti-red and only hdcam and film is good...

[Tim H.]

Once you jump into the ring with the heavyweights you have to expect hard punches but that doesn't mean Jim should have to sit in the corner and take the below the belt blows.

I welcome these tests but lets be fair about them plus everyone should always go and do their own tests anyway. Kodak gives out free film for testing, Panavision has a testing area, etc. There is a reason for this and every project has its own sets of demands.

[LAprod]

If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim

Please, make a fair test, with green screen, and everything! I'm really curious.
There is an invite list: :w00t:
Panavision Genesis
Sony Cinealta F23 (F900 and F950 should be nice too)
Thomson Viper Filmstream Camera
Arri D20
Silicon Imaging 2K
Phantom 4K/125
Kinor DC2K and DC4K
Kinetta 4K
Dalsa Origin 4K

This should be a very very fine test! These are all DC cameras... :innocent:

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

With 2000+ Red´s in circulation in a few months, any missinformation will not last very long.

Jochen

[Mark L. Pederson]

With 2000+ Red´s in circulation in a few months, any missinformation will not last very long.

Jochen

Amen.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Please, make a fair test, with green screen, and everything! I'm really curious.
There is an invite list: :w00t:
Panavision Genesis
Sony Cinealta F23 (F900 and F950 should be nice too)
Thomson Viper Filmstream Camera
Arri D20
Silicon Imaging 2K
Phantom 4K/125
Kinor DC2K and DC4K
Kinetta 4K
Dalsa Origin 4K

This should be a very very fine test! These are all DC cameras... :innocent:



I know somebody who would love to have a kinetta to send out for testing. The creator... just as soon as it can get made. :) Talk about an ambush test.

[Michael Brennan]

Mostly from the mistakes of others, this is what I have learnt from the numerous digital vs film tests since 2001.

One has to learn how to use the camera and process the image before making a comparison!

Sympathy and understanding of the sensor doesn't come without direct experience.

The exploration in an afternoon by trial and error of what a new sensor can do both technically and aesthetically should not be called "testing".

For some DPs the imperical information from a scientific test can help formulate the practical implementation of exposure, colour and contrast control to realise a vision.


Reliance on test material and opinion of others is not always a sound foundation for true understanding, although specific examples if particularly relevant to a project can help to some degree if you trust the methodology and reporting of the test.


Don't jump to conlusions after one test.


Mike Brennan

[Conrad Kucharski]

I strongly believe in testing for yourself.
How can you trust a competitor to deliver honest findings.

[Miodrag Popovic]

People in Serbia say “Fear have big eyes”. Kodak testers definitely got big eye syndrome. We also say “lie have short legs”. Short legs and big eyes will not bring you far away.
In the edge areas of the world like Serbia that fear is show up in more dramatic way despite market weakness.
We are waiting our RED camera and preparing presentation in huge film theatre, 4000 people, Sony 4K projector, 32 m wide screen (can’t use all 32 : -) built up by Tito for nonaligned countries congresses 40 years ago (mention my plan to Ted at IBC). We already attract attention from local Kodak film laboratory people. For them we are guerilla that will take over the market and they will try to destroy us while we are small (we have the sentence for this situation also “small pool, a lot of alligators inside” )
So RED is on the extremely good direction of movement.

Cheers

Pop

[Keith Alan Morris]

20,000 views of this thread in 4 days? damn.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Well... whats the news... or do I have to go find it?

[Jarred Land]

Im gonna freeze this thread since we seem to be drifting to Personal Attacks..