Northern Wisconsin Winter

[James Frederick]

We discovered the Red about eight months ago and were very excited about using the system.
However and maybe unfortunately we have some very tough situations to shoot in.
One is, the extreme cold. Our exterior locations hover at freezing. We could easily get snow, sleet, or rain at sub 32 deg temperatures. We are concerned with the Red's performance in these types of conditions.

Two, contrast problems. As you may have picked up, snow will be everywhere (we hope). We have been told by well know DP's that HD doesn't work so well in the high contrast snow situations.

We would love to use the Red system, but would need assurances that our conditions would not effect the quality. We would be very interested in doing a test come winter time.

Any light anyone could shed on these topics would be greatly appreciated.

[David Mullen ASC]

I shot a feature on the F900 in winter in Russia and my experience is that, in general, electronic cameras (being somewhat heat generators) don't mind the cold, especially dry and cold (not slushy, sleaty, wet & cold weather). That said, things like batteries are a concern as always, plus acclimating your lenses. I wouldn't really worry about the cold.

As for snow, actually the problem isn't capturing detail in white snow -- that's something you just have to expose properly to get -- it's trying to hold detail in extreme sunlit and dark areas, or scenes with a lot of sun glaring off of snow (a Pola filter would help there.) But for the most part, since snow is a bounce source, you actually often have fairly filled-in shadows with snow & sun together. I'd worry more about detail in dark pine trees or extreme backlighting. Again, filters (Polas, ND grads, etc.) can help.

My guess would be that the RED camera will work fine in scenes with snow.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I plan on using RED outdoors in extreme temperatures, both hot and cold. Right now, I'm not the least bit worried about it as long as I prepare properly. In winter conditions here in the Rockies, it's easy to find temperatures at -25F (-32C). And just imagine the wind-chill and effects that will have if the camera is vehicle mounted in those conditions... Not to mention the 60 to 80 Mph wind gusts that are common here too. Thermal packs for batteries are a good idea, forget using the RED DRIVE (IMO).

Summertime shooting is also a concern, but not as severe. Top temps in most places I would shoot probably reach about 108F in Colorado or about 122F in Arizona. I plan on having a sun shade or umbrella just for the camera, maybe an extra fan or two for the camera and operator(s). Will probably keep some cold-packs on hand too.

Seeing how my camera is set to be delivered in January, there's a good bet that my first images will have snow in them. :cold:

[Rick Darge]

Can't wait to see that Jeff !

[mdo]

And just imagine the wind-chill and effects that will have if the camera is vehicle mounted in those conditions... Not to mention the 60 to 80 Mph wind gusts that are common here too.

Wind chill would only be a factor if there is a need to maintain a temperature differential. If the camera can operate at the ambient temperature, then wind chill calculations wouldn't apply, since all the wind does is bring temperature to ambient levels more quickly.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

My experience from shooting on film in the arctic circle is not that the actual cold is a problem. Leave gear, especially lenses out to adjust and it should be fine. The real problem is humidity. I shot in the Ice Hotel (which is very humid and cold) and that was nothing but hell. Ice lumps in the gate after 2 min of shooting. I'd say that when it comes to snow you just keep it under cover and it'll be fine. Wind chill factor is most probably not a problem either. No the only problem (I'd say, not knowing how RED will react) is humidity, since it's going to freeze in no time if it gets wet. There's of course heat pack and electronic blankets to use if you want to, but I strongly suggest to try to avoid just because of the simple fact that if you can keep the equipment dry but cold it will most probably hold up better.

[Lauri Kettunen]

Any light anyone could shed on these topics would be greatly appreciated.

James, I've been shooting for 15 years in conditions comparable to northern Wisconsin, if not worse. Once it was so cold that the spirit level of the fluid head got stucken, i.e. I guess somehow frozen. In addition, with some fluid heads it often happens in the winter that one has to loosen all those knobs which adjust how much force/torque you have to use to pan and tilt. For, when its cold enough adjusting becomes like making a binary choice between no force or incredible amount of force.

Now, what comes to RED it seems to be well designed for use in cold conditions. First of all, if you shoot using CF-cards or flash memory, there is no moving parts in the camera. This is a major bonus compared to a video head spinning several thousand rpm. Secondly, the electronics is within a cavity and the heat is conducted through the aluminium body to the cooling ventilation. So, you won't get snow inside the camera. Thridly, the power consuption is in my understanding around 50 W when recording is on. This will generate to heat warming up the camera body, implying that perhaps the camera need not to be covered unless it's very very cold. Finally, taking into account that I've never had problems with a video camcorder (always put in a thermal bag) so far in the winter, don't expect any new problems with RED. In fact, RED should be better in this respect.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It's almost poetic that humidity came up right after the comments on wind chill. They're hell together. Wind chill isn't a huge deal, like mdo basically says. But it is a factor and can play a role. Sustained winds can have a cooling effect and can drop temperatures on certain surfaces to below ambient temps. This can be problematic with humidity and those temperature differences between components.

Anyway, all factors to be considered, but none are a big deal if properly prepared for. Humidity and blowing dirt/dust/sand/snow are probably my biggest concerns for shooting outdoors. I'd expect RED to handle fine... all my other cameras I've owned over the years have done just fine. No issues other than frozen batteries. I did have the tape mechanism fail on an XL-1 while out in the cold, but no indication that the cold itself was to blame, could have just been a dud unit.

[James Frederick]

Wow! Thank you all for your responses. They were all very helpful. Seems like we are good to go on the temperature and weather issues. Thanks!

I feel like I still need a few more responses regarding the exposure range. Bright sun lit snow and dark shadows of trees and an African American walking thru the snow.

Hmmmmmm

[Kyle Mallory]

From an electronics standpoint; semiconductor components, such as the FPGA, and CMOS/CCD, having operating ranges which may prevent them from operating in extreme cold. LCDs can also be affected by extreme temperature.

As an example, the "Commercial" Xilinx Spartan-3E (FPGA) has an operating range of 0c-85c. While the "Industrial" version operates from -40c to 100c.

Most semiconductors have a similar rating, though it can vary slightly per manufacturer. While the commercial specs are probably sufficient for most environments, hopefully RED had the foresight to recognize that the industrial version of their FPGA, etc, while more expensive, means the camera can endure more climates, which means more happy (if not cold) filmmakers.

Once the camera is operating and generating heat, it should be easy to keep it in the operating range. I could see the rare, extreme arctic environment that could bring the camera to sub-operating parameters, such as when the camera is off (while hiking into a location, etc), which could keep it from operating... but the chances (particularly if its an industrial grade chip) are pretty slim.

[David Mullen ASC]

I feel like I still need a few more responses regarding the exposure range. Bright sun lit snow and dark shadows of trees and an African American walking thru the snow.

Hmmmmmm

When in doubt, shoot a test. If preparation for using the RED camera, you can start by using a DSLR while you're waiting.

[Jeremy Torrie]

I have no doubts about the Red's winter capability. We've worked in -40 with windchill and the existing HD cameras have worked fine (sometimes employing a hair dryer on set to keep things toasty). Definitely the inside to outside unit moves (and vice versa) require time for the lenses to acclimatize, but the camera did not fail. I cannot say the same of some Aaton's we've worked with...

The biggest issue has been handling the dynamic range in the past, but as we've seen, there's way more range with Red than any other digital camera.

I have a feature that would shoot in the winter, and believe me, if you want cold, you come to Winnipeg in January! Which is supposed to be when we finally get our unit.