Red One - Windowed Mode

[aiming]

Hi everybody,

i got a question regarding the Windowed Mode. If i shot at 120frames/s in 2k res, does the Camera use the full chip to capture the footage downconverting it afterwards from the full 4k res to a 2k res or does it only use a smaller part of the chip?

PS: I'm from Germany, hope my english is ok. :biggrin:

[Brandon Fraley]

nope, it's "windowed" not "scaled"

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

From my understanding the higher frame rates are only possible as a smaller area of the chip is being scanned.

Stephen

[aiming]

Thanks for the fast reply. I was speculating the same... the problem is, i got to know it for sure. It's one extremly important buying criteria for me.

Also, does anybody know if it's possible to capture at 1080p without loosing the 35mm look?

If you loose dpth of field in a lower res you alwas got to downconvert the captured footage and downconverting from 4k in the postproduction is very timeconsuming I think.

And what is the datarate of the full res 4k Video? How mutch fitts on my 360gb
HD.

[Brandon Fraley]

i dont think the 1080 features have been finalized yet. TBA

but the 100fps at 2k windowed is pretty set in stone

...i believe

[roryhinds]

Aren't RED still doing Windowed and Scaled so you can use both 16mm & 35mm lenses?

[Stephen Williams]

i dont think the 1080 features have been finalized yet. TBA

but the 100fps at 2k windowed is pretty set in stone

...i believe

Hi,

I was expecting 120 fps @ 2k.

Stephen

[Brandon Fraley]

dunno, maybe, but specifically i was talking about the windowed part

[Nick Shaw]

Hi,

I was expecting 120 fps @ 2k.

Stephen

I think 120 fps @ 2k will only be available through the RAW port.

100 fps @ 2k (maybe 96 fps actually) will hopefully be recordable on board using REDCODE.

[Michael Stanmore]

The Phantom HD and the Phantom 65 appear to be able to handle higher and higher framerates the smaller the area of the sensor is being used...

I wonder... could we have a firmware update at some stage that will allow us to use Red to shoot 200fps at standard definition?

That'd be useful for broadcast applications in SD...

[roryhinds]

100fps is needed for 25fps work
96fps is needed for 24fps work

we need them both.
we need them Windowed and Scaled to match lenses used.

[Mark L. Pederson]

100fps is needed for 25fps work
96fps is needed for 24fps work


Why?

You can shoot 96fps and play back at 25fps and you can shoot 100fps and play back at 24 or 23.976 or even 29.97 (with an added pulldown) ....

[aiming]

The question is still: Does the Camera use the whole chip in Windowed mode or just a small part of it to capture the footage.

[Stephen Williams]

Why?

You can shoot 96fps and play back at 25fps and you can shoot 100fps and play back at 24 or 23.976 or even 29.97 (with an added pulldown) ....

Hi,

There can be issues with flicker shooting @ 96 fps in a 50Hz country.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

The question is still: Does the Camera use the whole chip in Windowed mode or just a small part of it to capture the footage.

For the higher rates a small part of the full sensor

[aiming]

Thanks!

And what if I shot at 2k. Is the red one also use a smaller part of the chip too?

[Stephen Williams]

Yes that's correct.

[roryhinds]

adding pulldown sucks and I'd rather have a clean 100fps clip to run at 25fps without any post processing giving me a cleaner image.

Same goes for 24fps.

[Mark L. Pederson]

adding pulldown sucks and I'd rather have a clean 100fps clip to run at 25fps without any post processing giving me a cleaner image.

Same goes for 24fps.

forget the pulldown, don't see why you can't shoot 96fps (progressive) and play back at 25fps progressive?

As for "flicker" - shutter is ... variable.

[Stephen Williams]

As for "flicker" - shutter is ... variable.

Hi,

So you have tested it and it works then?

There is an issue with the Viper 24fps with HMI's unless they are flickerfree, 172.8 degrees does not cure the problem as it would with a film camera.

Stephen

[HD Hildebrand]

nope, it's "windowed" not "scaled"

So if it is windowed, how does that effect mey lens/perspective. Does it in essence use a smaller part of the lens making a 35mm lens a 60mm lens? Forgive my ignorance on this.

[Stephen Williams]

So if it is windowed, how does that effect mey lens/perspective. Does it in essence use a smaller part of the lens making a 35mm lens a 60mm lens? Forgive my ignorance on this.

Hi,

You will want wider lenses with a windowed sensor, although the lens focal length remains the same, the angle of view changes, as the image is 'cut out' of a larger frame.

Stephen

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hi,

So you have tested it and it works then?

There is an issue with the Viper 24fps with HMI's unless they are flickerfree, 172.8 degrees does not cure the problem as it would with a film camera.

Stephen

Stephen -

we have used the variable shutter - however I have not done specific tests w/HMI's -

If you suggest any SPECIFIC tests I can try to add them into our on-going testing and tinkering -

I will try NON-flicker-free HMI's very, very soon -

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen -

we have used the variable shutter - however I have not done specific tests w/HMI's -

If you suggest any SPECIFIC tests I can try to add them into our on-going testing and tinkering -

I will try NON-flicker-free HMI's very, very soon -

Hi Mark,

Try 25fps with 144 degree shutter, also normal 'flicker free' rates with old HMI's, it's those little things that you dont expect that end up biting!
The Viper problem is a software issue, not all cameras are effected!

Stephen

[roryhinds]

you can slow down any frame rate to 25fps although it will not give you a clean conversion.

Better have 100fps so you have 4x slowmo in 25fps and not awkward % is much easier to work with.

It comes down to a location thing.. people in the USA using NTSC will not see any benefit for using 100fps as they would always use 96fps and people in PAL countries will need 100fps and will only use 96fps is their project was going to run in cinemas at 24fps.

[David Battistella]

Stephen -

we have used the variable shutter - however I have not done specific tests w/HMI's -

If you suggest any SPECIFIC tests I can try to add them into our on-going testing and tinkering -

I will try NON-flicker-free HMI's very, very soon -

Mark,

Any problems with LED's? Lite Panels, etc..

David

[David Battistella]

you can slow down any frame rate to 25fps although it will not give you a clean conversion.

Better have 100fps so you have 4x slowmo in 25fps and not awkward % is much easier to work with.

It comes down to a location thing.. people in the USA using NTSC will not see any benefit for using 100fps as they would always use 96fps and people in PAL countries will need 100fps and will only use 96fps is their project was going to run in cinemas at 24fps.

Rory,

The way I understand overcranking in RED is this. Because there is no tape transport system there is no need to add pulldown. you just have 24, 48, 96, 100 whatever and lay that into the project timeline (matching your RED project settings) and it plays back at the project setting speed.

There is no framerate conversion process like in the Varicam or the HVX-200, it just plays the requested progressive frames. Al you have to do is determine if you want 2x, 3x or any number in one frame increments in between.

David

[HD Hildebrand]

Hi,

You will want wider lenses with a windowed sensor, although the lens focal length remains the same, the angle of view changes, as the image is 'cut out' of a larger frame.

Stephen

Okay, I hear you. Any idea how much? Can you compare it to something?

[Jim Arthurs]

Okay, I hear you. Any idea how much? Can you compare it to something?

Here's a good starting point for you...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=60414&postcount=12

[HD Hildebrand]

Here's a good starting point for you...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=60414&postcount=12

Thanks Jim. This is sort of what I was looking for, though it doesn't specifically point out 2k Windowed. Are you implying that 2k windowed would be like super 16. If so, this is my fear - still nice depth of field like 35mm, great for telephot, but no wide angle (as in degree/field of view).

[Jim Arthurs]

Thanks Jim. This is sort of what I was looking for, though it doesn't specifically point out 2k Windowed. Are you implying that 2k windowed would be like super 16. If so, this is my fear - still nice depth of field like 35mm, great for telephot, but no wide angle (as in degree/field of view).

Yes, a different post in the same thread... check the diagram lower in the post.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=60417&postcount=14

Remember that any given mm lens has the same DOF characteristics no matter the format it's going to... a 10mm lens has the same DOF on a 16mm camera as a 10mm lens on a 35mm camera... the difference is that the FOV on the 35mm is so much greater that the larger overall frame size gives the illusion that the image is somehow sharper in the out of focus areas compared to the same setup settings on a 16mm camera.

But more specifically, if you intend to work for the most part with 2K cropped, you could go with PL mount lenses designed for s16mm coverage and have your wider angle options.

Or, if you only need part-time 2K crop coverage, get the Birger Canon mount and the 10-22mm Canon lens... 10mm is nicely wide angle in S16 terms while being VERY wide angle in 35mm terms.

I hope that helps...

[ChrisLyon]

What is windowed and scaled? I've looked for a definition and I can't seem to locate one.

[Jim Arthurs]

Windowed means that a small area of a sensor is cropped and recorded, scaled means a large area is sampled, then scaled in hardware and then recorded. See that above post I linked to from Brooks FAQ for the exact measurements involved in the case of the RED.

[Damien Molineaux]

The question is still: Does the Camera use the whole chip in Windowed mode or just a small part of it to capture the footage.

"windowed" means using only a portion of the sensor ! In the case of Red 2K windowed means you're using 1/4 of the size of the sensor, the image is actually being recorded on a 2048 pixel wide portion of the sensor, which pretty much corresponds to the area covered by a Super16 mm lens.

As to "scaled", it means taking the data of the whole sensor and then subsampling it to a lower resolution.

I hope I've made this clear for non english speakers.

For diagrams, check out Brooks Red FAQ, starting at post #12 :
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1487&page=2

Cheers,
Damien

[Jared VanLeuven]

A DSLR analogy: "windowed" would be a more drastic iteration of the "focal length multiplier" scenario found in most DSLRs up until very recent times. Same overall look to the image, but imagine a 50% or so letterboxing all around, so the end result looks as though you'd used a longer focal-length lens.