RED Batteries and Airplanes ?

[Greg Voevodsky]

Ok - I read an earlier thread before that I thought basically said that I could carry 2 RED batteries on board my carry on luggage and then 2 in my luggage. Also, the fact that RED was able to fly home from the 1st 50 RED owners seemed fine.

However, I just got this disturbing e-mail from a German film producer that states otherwise (see below).

Does Europe have different laws?

What about after Jan 1, 2008 with the new laws ?

Does RED have a different power solution?

What about fuel cells and airplanes?

HERE IS THE E-MAIL:

"Hello Greg,

your information on carrying batteries is not completely right: You can carry 1 battery on the camera and 2 as spare, all of them in the Cockpit. 140 Wh batteries are only allowed in check-In luggage, if they are put in a special case for "dangerous goods". These cases/containers must be registered in front at the airline, must have special signs on it (Class 9 dangerous goods), and, and, and. The airline can accept it, but must not. So in day to day reality, the maximum is 3 pieces

Having 140 Wh batteries means already that you cannot jump into a plane on a short decision, to shoot something somewhere. On the Top of it (as mentionned in my previous e-mail), there are 90% Chances that these rules will be even more restrictive by January 1st, and then you can completely forget taking any 140Wh battery onto a plane, or even quantities of Li-Ion batteries, which size ever, for which use ever. This is a reaction on unsafe copy products made in China, and on the laptop issues 12 Months ago."


HIS PREVIOUS E-MAIL STATED:

"The IATA (International Air Transportation Association) doesn´t allow to transport more than 3 Li-Ion batteries (one on the camera, two as spare, all of them in the cockpit) with more than 8g of Equivalent Lithium Metall. With 8g Equivalent Lithium Metall, you can physically get 98Wh of power under 14,8V, not more.

Considering that RED Batteries have 140 Wh (as long I know), they must have more than 8g of Equivalent Lithium Metall. In consequence, they are not allowed for transportation by air in quantities (not more than 3 pieces) .

According to our informations, there is no chance that this rule will be cancelled in future. It even seems that it will become even more restrictive. Considering the issues that have been with Notebook batteries 12 Month ago, I´m quite confident that this rules will be applied quite strictly.

I know that in the RED Forum, the question of transportation has been asked and has been answered positively: transportation by air isn´t an issue. For me it is hard to believe. The physical law are what they are, and you cannot get 140 Wh with less than 8g Lithium Metall. RED is making some miracle, but not such ones ;-)"

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Greg,

Dynamite also comes under Class 9 dangerous goods IIRC.

Stephen

[Rocco Schult]

Don't ask me where I got this, but its a quote, not MY personal experience.

Somebody put his spares into the checked luggage without marking them as dangerouse goods. When asked for his batteries -and he obviously wasn't bold enough to lie- the machine was stopped and emptied until they got his luggage.

Somehow I believed what I read.
So however, the clue is, don't mess with Mr. Lithium on a plane.

[Paul Kalbach]

Do these airline restrictions only apply to lithium-ion? How about ni-cads? I have a bunch of Anton-Bauer 14.4v ProPacs that I thought maybe I could use with an AB to V-Mount adapter. Even though they're 5.2 pound bricks, they're only rated at 60 watt-hours rather than 140 watt-hours. Would they be beefy enough to power Red One at all; or would they simply power it for a shorter time?

[jbeale]

well, the good news is that NiCd batteries contain Nickel and Cadmium but no Lithium at all, so the 8-gram Lithium limit is no barrier to NiCd (or NiMH or alkaline). However I don't know if there are any other specific restrictions on those chemistries.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Jim and RED team....

What is the legal deal now...
I know the 50 REd users who flew got away with it...
so did I with illegal explosive - military bug repelent... that I left in my carry on camera bag... but that is still a FEDERAL OFFENSE.

So what is the legal deal... and what is coming...
I plan to fly a lot... this is a RED deal killer... if I cant fly...

[dino g]

many of us first 50 are local to the OC and just drove down...

[Rob Lohman]

If I remember correctly these batteries are okay. The RED team have flown them around the world quite a bit, never had a problem.

[ben-s]

This doesn't apply directly to RED, but according to Anton-Bauer, the Dionic 90 is the largest Li-ion battery you can fly with.
This also tallies up with the 8g max lithium content mentioned above.

http://www.antonbauer.com/dionic.htm

I guess you could use NiCads but they're damned heavy compared to Li-ion

EDIT:
Just found this in relation to the Dionic 160;



I. Carry-On Baggage
The Dionic 160 may be brought as carry-on baggage with applicable video equipment, but limited to 2 spare batteries per person. (See Note Below)

This is in accordance with the IATA as specified in Table 2.3.A - Provisions for Dangerous Goods Carried by Passengers or Crew (2.3) from pages 15 & 16 of the 2004 Dangerous Goods Regulations – 45th Edition.

“Consumer electronic devices containing lithium or lithium ion cells or batteries, such as watches, calculating machines, cameras, cellular phones, lap-top computers, camcorders, etc., when carried by passengers or crew for personal use (See Packing Instruction 912 and Special Provision A45). Spare batteries must be individually protected to prevent short circuits and carried in carry-on baggage only. In addition, each spare battery must not exceed the following quantities:

a) for lithium metal or lithium alloy batteries, a lithium content of less than 2 g; or
b) for lithium ion batteries, an aggregate equivalent lithium content of less than 8 g.

Lithium ion batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of more than 8 g but not more than 25 g may be carried in carry-on baggage if they are individually protected so as to prevent short circuits and are limited to two spare batteries per person.”

I'm assuming that the Red brick would fall under this category...

[Andrew M.]

So it is maximum 25g not 8g as long as these batteries are individualy packed?

[ben-s]

So it is maximum 25g not 8g as long as these batteries are individualy packed?

Individually packed and properly insulated, maximum of 2 per person, it certainly looks that way.

You might want to double check my sources to be sure;
These links are in the context of Dionic batteries, which are A/B's line of Li-ion batteries.
Main page for Dionic series;

http://www.antonbauer.com/dionic.htm
This page states that the Dionic 90 is the largest battery that can legally be transported without restriction

Transportation info index page;
http://www.antonbauer.com/battery_trans_info.htm

General transportation info;
http://www.antonbauer.com/gen_trans_notice.htm

Dionic 90 specifics;
http://www.antonbauer.com/trans_notice_dionic90.htm

Dionic 160 specifics;
http://www.antonbauer.com/trans_notice_dionic160.htm


This is the most useful page; FAQ's - anyone transporting batteries should probably read this;
http://www.antonbauer.com/li_ion_trans_faqs.htm
The quote below is from this page.


7) Are there any limitations for lithium-ion batteries carried onto aircraft?

a. Yes. Passengers are allowed an unlimited number of spare batteries whose equivalent lithium content per battery is less than 8 gr. (Anton Bauer Dionic 90). Passengers can also carry no more than two lithium ion batteries that contain more than 8 gr. of equivalent lithium content per battery (Anton Bauer Dionic 160).

[Andrew M.]

Here it is from the FAA website.
There is more restriction on lithium batteries then on lithium ion.
Lithium ion are easy to extinguish and Lithium are not so easy as per FAA tests.
So no more then 5g per cell but total allowable is 25g per battery pack, as per FAA document, see below.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/media/MaterialsCarriedByPassengersAndCrew.pdf

Andrew

[Greg Voevodsky]

Here it is from the FAA website.
There is more restriction on lithium batteries then on lithium ion.
Lithium ion are easy to extinguish and Lithium are not so easy as per FAA tests.
So no more then 5g per cell but total allowable is 25g per battery pack, as per FAA document, see below.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/media/MaterialsCarriedByPassengersAndCrew.pdf

Andrew

Is that correct?

Sorry if Im missing the obvious... but no one (from RED) will answer the questions...

How many RED batteries can be carried by one person onboard? 3 max right?

RED batteries can not just be checked in luggage... they must be declared as a hazzard and specially packaged if not carried on board?

So as a shooter, by myself I can only carry 3 red batteries with me on the plane and non in my check in? If this is wrong, what can I do? Thanks.

How much lithium or lithium ion is there in a RED battery. Can RED publish this on their website too?

[Paul Kalbach]

If I remember correctly these batteries are okay. The RED team have flown them around the world quite a bit, never had a problem.

Are you referring to th AB ni-cad 60 Wh ProPacs? I searched but couldn't find any spec stating how many watts Red draws. I did see in an earlier thread where Jim doubted that a 90 Wh battery would power the camera.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=962&page=2&highlight=wattage

[oldphart]

Hi Greg,

Dynamite also comes under Class 9 dangerous goods IIRC.

Stephen

Dynamite is much safer than lithium batteries. A badguy could do much more damage by shorting a fully charged battery than by most other non-SciFi methods.

[istvanttt]

If I remember correctly these batteries are okay. The RED team have flown them around the world quite a bit, never had a problem.

You where the only one from RED who said something on this issue, but with all respect I have for everybody who works in and for RED, I honestly think we should get more information on this then just conclusions on guesses. Specially we non-americans can get banned for ever (!!) from the USA if we would be caught with "illegal" explosive material in an aircraft.

[JohnF]

To be honest after some experience with a load of seriously overheating lithium ion batteries in mac laptops last year I'm not suprised that airlines and aviation bodies are getting restictive regarding batteries. These poor quality batteries are dangerous.

What we really need is official safety approvement marks on these batteries so we can assure airlines and their governing bodies that we are not carrying dangerous goods on board.

I think classifying them up with explosives is both a good and bad thing, good in that it becomes more difficult for those dodgy batteries to possibly hinder or damage and aircraft and forces quality to be top priority but bad in that these restictions, as Istvanttt suggested, might get an individual into alot of unnecessary trouble when flying into or through the US.

I have to say that I'm hearing a lot of people now talking about avoiding flying directly to the US now as the hassle involved has become too much.
They talk about flying to neighbouring countries and enter the US by car or train... (I've heard the welcome by US security is not very pleasent and can add 2 or 3 hours on a journey, which can mean missing ones connecting flights, if one does not pick the right airline)
Though the same is being said for airline travel around Europe and more and more crews are switching to train travel as again the, specifically security, hassle of flying is becoming both tiresome and expensive.

That said due to the recent (extemely) poor quality issue with Lithium-ion batteries I think that these restrictions are, for the moment, necessary for aircraft safety.

Though it might be interesting to note that according to the Anton-Bauer FAQ:

"7) Are there any limitations for lithium-ion batteries carried onto aircraft?

a. Yes. Passengers are allowed an unlimited number of spare batteries whose equivalent lithium content per battery is less than 8 gr. (Anton Bauer Dionic 90). Passengers can also carry no more than two lithium ion batteries that contain more than 8 gr. of equivalent lithium content per battery (Anton Bauer Dionic 160)."

So if you use the Dionic 90's you can take as many as you want onboard! Maybe this means having a different set of batteries (though this might mean twice as many) for any shoot that would require travelling by air.

JohnF

[tj williams]

Just flew back and forth across us with li160 batterys. in check baggage with no problem.

imo There are many pages of regs. and many tsa folks who don't read or aren't yet trained on this issue.

"Yes I need these 82 small batteries for my laptop because I have to turn the brightness up high to see the screen through my burkah mesh"

Political Aside: Can't understand why people are not required to pass a cardiac test to prevent heart attack on the airplane where they will not have access to emergency medical support.

[istvanttt]

Just flew back and forth across us with li160 batterys. in check baggage with no problem.

imo There are many pages of regs. and many tsa folks who don't read or aren't yet trained on this issue.
..................



Please understand that a non-American can not rely on that! We have to be careful to the limit of appearing paranoid.

[Steve G]

The faa document that andrew mentioned above mentions consumer electronics, not professional braodcast equipment.

I use hawk woods lith ion batts on hd cams/digi betas that I travel with, and have had trouble quite a few times. I have been let through in the end, but the regulations are quite specific.

If the airlines want to, they can refuse to carry in the hold anything with an aggregate of more than 8gms.

As far as hawk woods are concerned, the largest battery they do that is exempt is 100 watts.

If the red battery is 140 watts, I am sure it will be over the 8 gms aggregate limit.

[Andrew M.]

What is the difference in terms of safety between aggregate 25g of Lithium in consumer or professional equipment?
I think if anything the professional batteries are undergoing more stringent quality control then cookie cutter consumer products.
Just print this FAA document and carry it with you when flying.
Also make sure that you have some document specifying how many grams of Lithium your batteries have.
I agree they can stop you with anything when they do not feel comfortable but black and white FAA document flashed straight in too their face should work.

[paul dudeck]

While there is a lot of different information out there in regards to lithium ion travel, I have found this one to be the most useful:

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

If you go back to the first thread, the "German Producer" is correct in what he states.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

A burning battery

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw

Stephen

[CJ Roy]

I don't want to double post, but here's my recent experience traveling with Red bricks.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=127144&postcount=18

[Wes Printz]

I received the following E-mail from the FAA, with an attached 22 page PDF from the Federal Register Aug 9 2007 Pages 49930 - 49950.

-----------------------------------------------------------

1/3/07

Thank you for your email.

A notice indicating that Section 175.10 (a) (17) of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations with respect to lithium batteries would change on January 1, 2008 was published in Volume 72 of the Federal Register on August 9, 2007 at page number 44930. I have attached a copy of this notice. The Federal Aviation Administration supports this change. However, it was published by the Department of Transportation’s Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration. This rule, in part, adopted parallel international aviation safety standards.

FAA and PHMSA are both Administrations within the US DOT. PHMSA’s role is to issue the hazmat requirements for all modes of transport. FAA’s role is to conduct inspections and enforce the requirements in the air-mode.

Guidance concerning this rule can be obtained by clicking “what’s new” on the safetravel.dot.gov web site. Additional technical guidance concerning this rule and other inter-modal hazmat requirements should be obtained from PHMSA.

I have forwarded your email question(s) to PHMSA at infocntr@dot.gov

PHMSA can also be reached by email at training@dot.gov or by telephone at 1-800-467-4922 or fax at 202 366-7342.

Bill Wilkening
FAA
----------------------------------------

At least AGGREGATE Lithium Content is defined:

Section 171.8 Definitions and abbreviations

Aggregate Lithium content means the sum of the grams of lithium content or equivalent lithium content contained by the cells comprising a battery.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PART 175 - Carriage by Aircraft:
Section 175.10 Exceptions
(a)
(17)
(ii) For a Lithium Ion battery, an aggregate equivalent lithium content of not more than 8 grams per battery, except that up to two batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of more than 8 grams but not more that 25 grams may be carried.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

More from the document:

"we are adopting the amendments proposed in the April 2002 NPRM to permit
carriage by passengers and crew of lithium battery-powered consumer electronic devices and associated spare lithium batteries. We are also clarifying in this final rule that the proposed battery size limitation for spare batteries also applies to the batteries installed in the device. These
amendments also state that spare lithium batteries may only be carried in
carry-on luggage and that they must be individually protected against short
circuits. Unprotected batteries are susceptible to short circuits when exposed to items typically carried by passengers and crew members, such as
car keys and coins. We recommend that passengers protect spare batteries by placing them in protective cases or individual zip-top bags or placing non-
conductive tape across exposed terminals.

We note that ICAO is considering eliminating the passenger aircraft exception for medium-size (8–25 grams aggregate equivalent lithium content) batteries. If adopted by ICAO, we will consider adopting this in a future rule.


Edit: Looks like Oct 2008 things may get a bit toughter, it may drop from 8 to 5gr...

[Harry Clark]

I put this up on the other thread that was knocking this issue around last week, but I think in the end I'm simply going to buy 4 HyTron 140's and leave my Dionic 90's and 160's at home.
Cheers,
Harry

[Etienne Caron]

So now, what you guys doing when you want to travel with more then 2-3 Red Bricks battery ?

Regards