Red One Pipeline Diagram v1.0 [Archive]

Blair S. Paulsen

12-30-2006, 07:15 PM

First off, thanks for the effort. As far as I know there is a HDMI output as well that will allow monitoring without the expense of HD-SDI boards. In fact there has even been some movement, mostly at the prosumer level so far to do more with HDMI - to some degree as an alternative to Firewire. It remains to be seen what the possibilities are with HDMI v1.3 but it could turn out to be a low cost alternative to HD-SDI with greater bandwidth than Firewire 800.

I am also looking for confirmation concerning whether the RedDrive can copy to a dumb device like an external SATA drive or if it needs a computer in the path. I have assumed that a laptop with a couple of eSATA ports sprouting out of a card slot (Express/34 on the newer Mac laptops) or at least dual Firewire 800 would be needed for reasonable transfer speeds. Maybe the new Macs that we all expect to be announced at MWSF will have SATA taps standard. Perhaps SATA in from the RedDrive and FW800 out to an external storage drive?

Anyone know the max throughput for single channel SATA vs Firewire 800?

Is FW800 connection an announced feature of the RedDrive? I have been assuming SATA only but please, please correct me if you can.

Rob Lohman

12-30-2006, 11:52 PM

HDMI to DVI is possible as well (with a simple cable)

As it stands now the drive will indeed have Firewire 400/800, USB2 & some type of SATA connector.

Jason Francois

12-30-2006, 11:59 PM

Thanks Michael. this will come in very handy once the elements are locked down. Good stuff.

Hoffmann Films

12-31-2006, 12:11 AM

well done.....

mikkowilson

12-31-2006, 01:07 AM

"Sneaker Net" LOL!

Very nice diagram!

If you do a 2nd version, don't forget to include where to put a downconverter for SD monitoring. It's still important.

- Mikko

Jaime Vallés

12-31-2006, 07:57 AM

As it stands now the drive will indeed have Firewire 400/800, USB2 & some type of SATA connector.
Will the RED-FLASH also have those connectors available?

Rob Lohman

12-31-2006, 08:47 AM

I honestly don't know!

Matthew Greene

12-31-2006, 11:55 AM

Blackmagic has the new intensity card which is around $200. It allows for uncompressed HDMI i/o. With multiple cards and the included software you can do live multicamera video switching and transitions.

For under $1000 they have a card with the HDMI plus analog component i/o. (wonder if it transcodes?)

I'm not sure who has a use for this but just letting you know that it's out there.

Michael Morlan

12-31-2006, 12:09 PM

Thanks for the feedback.

I'll add the SD down-convert path.

I'll add the HDMI port and associated connections.

What is the nature of the "RAW data port?" I just pulled that off the specs.

M

Michael Morlan

12-31-2006, 02:46 PM

Okay,

Here's verison 2:

edit: 3/13/2007 - This diagram has been updated many times over the course of this thread. Be sure to read deeper to see the latest version.

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/Red_One_Workflow_v02.gif

Chris Gearhart

12-31-2006, 07:43 PM

Looks great, Michael. The flow may be a little ambiguous from the HD-SDI and HDMI outputs. It may appear that you can go anywhere (i.e., does your flowchart software do those loop-jumpy crosses?).

This is the clearest expression I've seen to date of the various options. Good job.

Michael Morlan

01-01-2007, 09:29 AM

Doh! That's simply an error. Contemporary circuit diagram convention is the use of a small dot over connected intersections rather than loops over non-connections. If a line terminates at another line, it is obviously connected, if it crosses without a dot, then not.

I suppose I should also note the possible dual HD-SDI connection from camera to PC/Mac.

edit: 3/13/2007 - This diagram is dynamically updated each time I make changes to the source file. It does not represent the state of the diagram at the original time of this post.

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

robbo

01-01-2007, 04:41 PM

That's very nice, Michael.

tks for your hard work.
Clears up some stuff for me that has flown over the top when reading the threads.

cheers, r

Steve Tammi

01-01-2007, 06:09 PM

Andrew Benz

01-01-2007, 06:21 PM

Thanks Michael. Nice to see this in a flow chart.

A general question... If RED-DRIVE and RED-FLASH acquire the same formats what is the advantage of RED-FLASH? I guess flash would be more durable and absolutly silent is there any other advantages?

Hi Steve,

Weight (possibly balance-think steadicam, cammate), being able to use the RED in it's most compact form for tight handheld work. Use flash during times when vibration may be a problem , ie---most helicopters (no Tyler mount, etc. here still talking handheld), boats, baja racing and the list goes way on...

Hope all is well in Memphis.

Cheers Steve,

Andrew

ps. Michael, thank you for the flow chart. I always enjoy your articles and the other resources that you provide on the web.

Gavin Greenwalt

01-01-2007, 07:12 PM

Doesn't the RED have component or some manner of analog output?

Michael Morlan

01-01-2007, 07:29 PM

If RED-DRIVE and RED-FLASH acquire the same formats what is the advantage of RED-FLASH?

As Andrew notes, solid-state parts, camera can work in a bit rougher shot.

Andrew, not sure the RED-FLASH is inboard anymore. The two slots in the early RED One designs have gone away, it would appear.

I'll continue updating the diagram on my site at;
http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm

That page will be enhanced with links to key pieces of gear that satisfy each of the diagram blocks and paths.

Enjoy,

M

Andrew Benz

01-01-2007, 07:40 PM

Andrew, not sure the RED-FLASH is inboard anymore. The two slots in the early RED One designs have gone away, it would appear.
M

Nice point, I have been wondering about that myself. However, the many mountable hard points (are they still there hard to tell..*edit-ok there are a few- just looked) on the camera (sans cage)should still allow for the most compact form factor when its motivated by needs. If not there is still the top handle and the flat spine it provides on the top of the camera.

Rob Lohman

01-02-2007, 12:53 AM

Doesn't the RED have component or some manner of analog output?

No, no analog outputs on RED ONE. Only digital outputs (DVI/HDMI & HD-SDI)

MikeCurtis

01-02-2007, 06:00 PM

Chris Gearhart

01-02-2007, 08:40 PM

Version 3 is looking very good.

Hoffmann Films

01-02-2007, 09:43 PM

Nice work, helps me understand the different options.

Michael Morlan

01-02-2007, 10:55 PM

Mike, I pulled USB-2 and firewire 400/800 right off the latest specs at;
http://red.com/techspecs.htm

Hoffman, not sure what you're asking. Essentially, each arrow represents one of many choices to get data/video out of the camera. One need only choose any one of the myriad paths that supports the production's frame format. The practical needs of monitoring, logging, recording, etc. might dictate the use of multiple paths on the set. This doesn't even show the use of splitters and such to allow multiple receivers on a single data path. The choices are mind boggling. ;-)

Rob, I'm still not sure what the "RAW data port" is.

M

Rob Lohman

01-03-2007, 02:56 AM

One note/question - my understanding is that Red One will have an eSATA port (right? For 2 drive setup, eSATA no SATA) on it, but not USB2/FireWire ports. So will that eSATA allow connection to anything other than Red Drive?

And is the workflow more like Red to Red Drive, then Red Drive to Red Cine (for RAW) or directly to a QT app if Redcode RGB?

-mike

Workflow:

1) record onto RED-DRIVE or REDFLASH

2) copy footage of the magazine to another drive / computer / storage array (either for backup and/or getting the magazine ready for new recordings)

3) load the camera generated REDCODE RAW files natively into REDCINE, process it and output to still sequences, QuickTime movies or QuickTime REDCODE

-AND/OR-

3) load the camera generated REDCODE RAW files into an application that can work with QuickTime files

More workflows might be possible. I'll generate some diagrams over the coming months

Rob Lohman

01-03-2007, 03:00 AM

Michael:

1) the RAW port on the camera makes the raw data coming off the sensor available (with some changes like fixed pattern noise reduction & dead pixel mapping)

2) once RED-RAID is available you will be able to record the signal coming off this port. This will give you 4.5K instead of 4K recording up to 60 fps instead of 30 fps. You will also get 2K at 120 fps instead of 2K at 60 fps.

3) instead of the RAW port you can get the camera with the REDFLASH module so you can record to our flash based media (higher tolerances, no moving parts, thus more reliable)

As always things are subject to change.

Stuart English

01-03-2007, 08:27 AM

A few corrections -

Audio 4 x mini XLR

RAW - 2540p RAW up to 60fps ( extract 4K out of that if desired)
- 1270p RAW up to 120fps ( extract 2K out of that if desired )

HDSDI - 1080p & 720p are 4:2:2 not RGB (per SMPTE specs)

Evin Grant

01-03-2007, 10:31 AM

But there will be Dual link HD-SDI for 4:4:4 yes?

Michael Morlan

01-03-2007, 03:38 PM

Thanks for the clarifications.

Rob. Right now, I have the RAW Port connected directly to a PC but I don't know what type of connection that is. Has that port been defined from an industry standard specification or is it proprietary?

Stuart: 1270p? That's the first I've heard of that.

Per Rob, some ports/peripherals are mutually exclusive (ie: RAW port vs. REDFLASH.) I can note this distinction on the diagram if you will take a moment to define which ports/peripherals share the same spot on the camera.

Thanks for everything guys. This is truly exciting. The latest diagram is up now at;
http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm

Michael

Rob Lohman

01-03-2007, 03:46 PM

Nick Shaw

01-03-2007, 04:52 PM

I guess 1270p is just half of 2540p ie 2k plus overscan.

Nick

Michael Morlan

01-03-2007, 10:31 PM

REDFLASH records the same kind of information as RED-DRIVE, so I don't think you need a different line or something on the chart for that.

That's true, although I like the symmetry of that section of the diagram. :) When REDFLASH plugs into a slot in the camera, what data protocal is it using?

More questions about the RAW port can be answered by Stuart. As far as I know that does not connect to a PC. You connect to RED-RAID which you can also connect to a PC (similar to RED-DRIVE).

Ah HA! I updated that as you note until I read further from Rob. Thanks!

Latest diagram update is up with these changes:
http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm

I placed the diagram here as well. (It will dynamically update in this thread as I make future changes.
http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Blair S. Paulsen

01-04-2007, 12:33 AM

The following is my best recollections of Rob, Stuart & Graeme's posts, feel free to correct anything I have wrong - particularly since changes are ongoing:

1) I am not sure that the camera actually feeds out the image data over Firewire or USB 2.0, I had the impression that eSATA was the only way to send data to the RedDrive and then the RedDrive has all the interfaces for downloading the data: FW400/800, USB 2.0 and eSATA.

2) I made the assumption that since the RedFlash attaches the same place the RAW data port attaches that it would have some custom connector capable of higher data rates than the eSATA tap to the RedDrive. I further assume that at some point in the future that the RedFlash will allow for higher on camera data rates than the RedDrive since flash memory written to in parallel should have much higher potential bandwidth.

3) Unless I have the junction notation wrong from your earlier post it looks like you are missing a direct line from the camera's HD-SDI outputs to the HD monitor (bypassing the downconvert). You show the HDMI path, which I think will be very popular, but I am operating under the assumption that all outputs are always hot so you can go either way.

Stephen Gentle

01-04-2007, 06:09 AM

In your diagram, you have a REDDrive and a REDRaid. I thought these were the same, aren't they?

-Stephen

Rob Lohman

01-04-2007, 07:19 AM

No. RED-DRIVE is a small external magazine to record REDCODE RAW/RGB to.

RED-RAID is a bigger system that will allow 4.5K recording up to 60 fps (or 2K at 120 fps).

Basically RED-RAID is a larger storage system than RED-DRIVE and will not use a lossy compression system.

Michael: looking good!

Blair: no, the raw port and flash interface are 2 different beasts. So at least for the moment it's limited to the same specs as RED-DRIVE. It's just more reliable (and truly onboard).

Gbabymogul

01-04-2007, 10:32 AM

Blair: no, the raw port and flash interface are 2 different beasts. So at least for the moment it's limited to the same specs as RED-DRIVE. It's just more reliable (and truly onboard).I was under the same impression as Blair (although we're cognizant of the "under development" moniker). Just wondering where the REDflash is going to go if not where the optical port is in the current design? Was it a space consideration in the cam to go with Esata for the flash ?

If I'm stepping on some toes with the clarifications I'd understand. Don't want to spoil any NAB surprises, but it'd be cool if we could get clarification on this flash issue.

Muchos gracias compadre... ;)

Rob Lohman

01-05-2007, 02:06 AM

What flash issue are you talking about Gbabymogul?

The raw optical port module & flash module use the same area of the camera.
They use a different system underneath.

Gbabymogul

01-05-2007, 11:46 AM

What flash issue are you talking about Gbabymogul?

The raw optical port module & flash module use the same area of the camera.
They use a different system underneath.I wasn't sure if the Flash was still going to go where the optical port goes in the current renders. Previously, there was some talk of it possibly going elsewhere and/or with some of the onboard vs. offboard talk, it was still a ?. Granted I know you guys are still subject to change, but I'm glad to hear that part of the design hasn't changed. :)

Thanks for the clarification, mate.

Cail Young

01-06-2007, 07:36 AM

Quick question, and I apologise if it has been answered elsewhere.

Does RED ONE support a scaled live output through HD-SDI when in 4K/2K modes? If not, what is my alternative for on-set monitoring?

dewman

01-06-2007, 10:24 AM

excellent job on the diagram, Michael!

just wondering if the HDMI connection will adhere to the new 1.3 specification or will it be based on the current 1.2 specs? There seems to be a big jump between the two...but not sure is if it's relevant for the RED camera.

Here's a link to the new spec's: http://www.hdmi.org/resourcecenter/index.asp

Rob Lohman

01-06-2007, 01:37 PM

Stuart English

01-06-2007, 04:14 PM

Optical port - delete 2K, that is extracted by cropping in post from a 1270p RAW recording. (1 - 120 fps)

dewman

01-06-2007, 04:46 PM

thanks, rob...kinda thought it was a non issue with the RED...yea 1.3 looks to be in 07...anyone looking to throw down a chunk of $$ on a big plasma...i'd say wait

Mark L. Pederson

01-08-2007, 05:58 AM

HDMI 1.3 (or 1.2) is not really relevant for RED. Basically there is no 1.3 equipment on the market at all (at this point in time).

cailyoung: yes, you should have a HD-SDI signal (I think there's some limits regarding frame rates, Stuart knows the exact specifics)

HDMI/DVI monitoring is also available

HUH?? I am pretty sure Rob, that Play station 3 is HDMI 1.3 - and I am pretty sure APPLE is headed down that path as well ... but what do I know?

Jeff Kilgroe

01-08-2007, 09:51 AM

HUH?? I am pretty sure Rob, that Play station 3 is HDMI 1.3 - and I am pretty sure APPLE is headed down that path as well ... but what do I know?

PS3 is NOT HDMI 1.3 compliant... And neither is the Sony BDP-S1 BluRay player. HDMI 1.3 was one of the rumored reasons for the Sony player's long delays, but alas it is not so...

Apple and most computer manufacturers will be shifting over to UDI. HDMI makes little sense (actually none, what so ever) in terms of computer displays. HDMI (even the latest v1.3 spec) is still based on DVI v1.1. HDMI uses a scaled-down connector to incorporate DVI 1.1 and 8-channel digital audio on a single cable. Silicon Image, the group primarily responsible for HDMI and producer of most of the HDMI chipsets on the market has really screwed up the standard. HDMI is a collection of standardized definitions for timings / bandwidth, color depths and resolutions to run over the HDMI interface - all of which are DVI compliant. However, HDMI chipsets from Silicon Image typically are fiendishly crippled versions of DVI chipsets, only supporting the specific modes demanded by the HDMI spec they're designed to. To further complicate matters, EIA/TIA861/862 modes for HDTV are mandated by the HDMI spec, but not necessarily supported by all DVI inputs. In most cases you can connect an HDMI output to a monitor with a DVI input by simply using a cable with the proper ends. Unfortunately it doesn't work the other way around as HDMI inputs tend to be rather crippled. Sorry I kinda went off on a tangen there, but my point is that HDMI is a consumer-oriented, scaled down version of DVI that rolls audio into the same cable. If we have a proper DVI implementation, we already have something better, even than HDMI 1.3 (less the audio).

HDMI is also single-link only and tops out at a max resolution of 2048x1536 - at 56Hz, but most devices are limited to 1920x1200 when at 60Hz. So dual-link (DVI-DL / TMDS) is needed to carry higher resolutions, such as the 2650x1600 of the 30" LCD monitors and other higher resolution displays. To go to QWUXGA or 3840x2400, 2 x DVI-DL is required and this starts to become cumbersome. This is where UDI comes in. UDI is superior to DVI to begin with and it cand drive higher resolutions on a single link or channel. UDI supports up to 8 channels in one connector.

The only place we will see HDMI is in displays that are also intended to be used as HDTV displays. It's a feature for consumer convenience, not a feature to be superior to what is already there. I half expect the next revision of iMac systems to have HDMI inputs so that in addition to a computer, they can be used as an HDTV or display for another system, this secondary interface will have the FrontRow interface and probably their upcoming "iTV" functionality that can access all the data on the computer as well as data on other systems accessible over the network.

We are already seeing HDMI connectors on some PC video card products like the new ATI All-In-Wonder card. Makes sense... It has one DVI-I connector and one HDMI connector. And why not, DVI video (not dual link) and digital audio on teh same card, may as well roll it into one connector.

OK, that was a long post... Anyway, HDMI is great for BluRay and HD-DVD players and other things to hook to my HDTV. But it's not what I want for my Mac Pro, unless I want to hook up my bigscreen TV as a secondary monitor. The HDMI 1.3 spec will be nice because it will finally allow full bandwidth for the HDMI/DVI interface, which means increased color depth. Not that it matters too much, most players do all their internal color processing anyway and the HDTVs already fall short of displaying colors available with HDMI 1.1/1.2.

Jeff Kilgroe

01-08-2007, 09:53 AM

PS3 is NOT HDMI 1.3 compliant... And neither is the Sony BDP-S1 BluRay player. HDMI 1.3 was one of the rumored reasons for the Sony player's long delays, but alas it is not so...

Ooops, I need to correct myself.

Sony dis say PS3 would be HDMI 1.3 compliant. Current shipping versions are not, however they are firmware upgradeable to the 1.3 spec whenever Sony is ready. ...It will probably happen when they release their update to the internal BluRay player software, which is desperately needed.

Michael Morlan

01-11-2007, 12:00 PM

Fixed a couple of errors on the diagram and added the first links to specific gear.

Click on the image to jump to the workflow site:
http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

M

Rob Lohman

01-12-2007, 05:29 AM

Simon Blackledge

01-12-2007, 09:01 AM

So in theory I can run HDMI out of the red while shooting and capture realtime whatever I want using the BM Intensity card? 1080 4:2:2 ?

Michael Morlan

01-16-2007, 10:27 AM

Rob,

Thanks for the fixes. I've updated the diagram as I understand it.

I wasn't clear whether the RED-FLASH would also have firewire and USB or only the RED-DRIVE at this point. (I've included it in this diagram.)

Michael

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Sanjin Jukic

01-16-2007, 12:46 PM

Nice work Michael, I hope we got it now.
To count, the camera has 7 outputs.
Dual HD-SDI, HDMI, RAW data port, USB2, e-SATA, SD card is in/out. 4 mini XLR are probably in. Am I wrong?

Pictures (Spike phase of the RED ONE)
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49

Rob Lohman

01-16-2007, 01:17 PM

Yes, the 4x XLR are in. The fifth is out. There is also a single HD-SDI port for I believe monitoring (versus capturing on dual HD-SDI). At least that's what I seem to remember. Stuart?

Also ports for viewfinder & LCD.

Sanjin Jukic

01-16-2007, 01:48 PM

Antoine Baumann

01-23-2007, 01:09 PM

As I understand the diagram, you can have output to evf, red lcd monitor and HDMI out to an other big LCD monitor simultaneously. Is that right?

Rob Lohman

01-23-2007, 02:34 PM

Yes, these outputs should be live:

- EVF
- RED LCD
- HDMI
- HD-SDI monitor
- Dual-Link HD-SDI

Gopher77

01-23-2007, 05:40 PM

Don't beat me up for this but just want to be sure, there is a head phone jack for the operator, right?

GlennChan

01-23-2007, 06:49 PM

Yes, there should be a headphone jack on the camera. See the following thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=328

2- As I argue in the other thread, the XLR output should be dropped and replaced by two headphone outs.

Nick Shaw

01-24-2007, 03:55 AM

On any of the images here (http://red.com/photo-tour.htm) showing the right hand side of the camera, what appears to be a 3.5mm headphone jack can be seen at the top of the rear of the right hand side.

Stuart English

01-24-2007, 06:37 AM

See http://red.com/images/photo_zoom/redone_14.jpg

Note that there is a small error in this rendering - the upper left XLR is really a 5 pin male, which is stereo / two channel audio out - which is intended as a mirror of the stereo / two channel headphone output.

Andrew M.

01-24-2007, 08:59 AM

But there will be Dual link HD-SDI for 4:4:4 yes?

I would like to repeat and refine this question since it was not answered.
What can we get out of Dual-SDI Link?

Monitoring:
4Kp30
2Kp60
1080p60
720p120

Capturing:
4K ???
2K ???
1080p60 4:4:4
720p120 4:4:4

I presume the only difference between monitoring mode and capturing will be embeded time-code and genlock when capturing, is that correct?

Andrew

Andrew M.

01-24-2007, 09:06 AM

Nice work Michael. I see some other discrepancies:

1) there is no Firewire 800/400 port on the camera

2) the USB port on the camera goes straight to a computer

3) eSATA only connects to RED-DRIVE & REDFLASH, not to your computer

4) RED-DRIVE will most likely have Firewire 800/400 & USB2

eSATA only connects to RED-DRIVE and RED-FLASH?
Can we presume that we can unplug the RED-DRIVE from the camera eSATA connector and plug it to PC eSATA connector and PC running REDCINE will recognize it as a source of RAW material?
Transferring via Firewire is OK but 4 to 8 times slower.

Andrew

Rob Lohman

01-24-2007, 11:47 AM

Firewire 800 is fast enough, even USB 2 should in theory be fast enough. I didn't comment on RED-DRIVE to your computer through eSATA, I just don't know.

That would be a Stuart question. We'll see if he responds in here. Otherwise that might be a thing that's still worked out.

Stuart English

01-24-2007, 06:31 PM

Shaun Au

01-24-2007, 08:35 PM

under Redcine Process column, is there an "exposure" option missing? I mean Redcine can adjust the Raw exposure in a certain degree, right? Maybe -/+ 1 stop?

GlennChan

01-24-2007, 09:05 PM

It's probably easier and better to adjust exposure in your grading/finishing program. It's a simple multiple operation on the RGB channels / gain.

Rob Lohman

01-25-2007, 03:34 AM

All subject to change, but at the moment REDCINE has the following controls:

- White balance (Kelvin / tint)
- Saturation
- Gain
- Exposure
- Brightness
- Shadow
- Contrast
- Curves
- Output gamma
- Resizing, cropping & positioning

Rob

b e n t o n

01-25-2007, 07:02 AM

Interesting Thread.
A few questions on the diagram:
1) It looks like frame rates at 2 & 4K are limited to 30/60
2) It appears that ther is no longer FW800 on Cam and the usb is for controlling only - so...would HD-SDI capture into a laptop running REdCine Viable using something like the following (note:not availabe yet):
http://www.mobilityelectronics.com/expansion/products/expressbox1/expressbox1.html

Thanks,

Rob Lohman

01-25-2007, 10:09 AM

1) with REDCODE RAW yes, with RED-RAID you can go up to 4.5K @ 60 fps and 2K at 120 fps (your line should read 60/30, not 30/60)

2) indeed no FW800 on the camera. REDCINE doesn't have capture, so no. I also don't really see what an external PCI Express system has to do with this?

b e n t o n

01-25-2007, 12:18 PM

Thanks Rob,
sorry still slightly confused - are you sugesting no 24fps @ 2/4K

Rob Lohman

01-25-2007, 01:54 PM

No, REDCODE RAW 2K up to 60 fps, 4K up to 30 fps. In the order you put it, it looks like it's 2K @ 30 and 4K @ 60.

Jeff Kilgroe

01-25-2007, 02:19 PM

Thanks Rob,
sorry still slightly confused - are you sugesting no 24fps @ 2/4K

There's 24fps... Actually there's fps settings that are rampable from 1fps all the way up to 30fps or 60fps (or even 120fps via 2K uncompressed out to RED RAID at some point via the RAW port). ...Depending on your shoorting format and record method.

...At least that's how I understand it and I'll be seriously depressed if this isn't the case.

Joe Carney

01-25-2007, 06:18 PM

If you have an e-SATA port on your Mac / P.C then you should be able to mount the RED-DRIVE using that interface, but be aware you will need to create a special cable and also supply the drive with external power (as e-SATA does not provide that over the bus)

For most users connecting RED-DRIVE via Firewire 800 may be less of a hassle..... one cable, easy to source, power via the bus etc ...

Still, always good to have options.....

eSata cables are available for purchase, and if the external drive power requirements don't exceed 5v, you can use a usb2 to dc pin cable directly from your pc or laptop. Not as elegant, but doable.

tj williams

01-25-2007, 06:32 PM

Michael are there two outputs for monitoring one for the lcd and another for the viewfinder. Often we run an LCD monitor atop the camera for asst. and dir. to quickly see the shot. Your chard seems to indicate two outputs to 720P no matter what format we are recording, otherwise it would be 1 line with a Y right?

tj williams

01-25-2007, 06:53 PM

Great solution if you have a really nice HD lens. Abakus site says price converted to US$ today is #132 S16Conv $2652 #260 Super 35m $3811 possibly more realistic price fm Les at ZGC in NY is $3500 and $4250 making this a somewhat expensive solution.

Michael Morlan

01-28-2007, 08:03 AM

Michael are there two outputs for monitoring one for the lcd and another for the viewfinder?

T.J.,

I currently understand there is an output for each.

Here's the latest:

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Andrew M.

01-28-2007, 08:45 AM

Stuart did ask the question in other thread if we would like the same interface for EVF and LCD

Asking such question implies that two separate ports are contemplated but the question is if it should be:

LCD -> HDMI port
EVF -> HD-SDI
or
LCD -> HDMI port
EVF -> HDMI port
or
LCD -> HD-SDI
EVF -> HD-SDI
or
LCD -> ??
EVF -> ??

I rather see both ports as a HDMI for the cost reason.
Also I do not expect to have more than few feet of cables.
If I need 20' or more for remote monitoring I will take it from dual HD-SDI port.

Andrew

Stuart English

01-28-2007, 07:29 PM

Dominic Jones

01-29-2007, 01:03 AM

I know I might be late to the party here, but I've just read this thread and I'm grinning from ear to ear that the most advanced, bleeding-edge, revolutionary video workflow currently in development *still* manages to have a sneaker net as one of it's links!!!

You just gotta love technology!...

:D

Nick Shaw

01-29-2007, 02:57 AM

There are four independent monitor outputs...

EVF - 720p video with look around, frame markers and other graphics.

LCD - 720p video with look around, fame markers and other graphics.

HDMI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

HDSI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

Note - The monitor HDSI is independent of the Dual Link HDSI, which supports a wide range of HD formats and frame rates.

So Stuart, am I correct in inferring the following from this info:

1. Only the LCD and EVF can display frame markers and graphics. These cannot be duplicated on the HDMI/HDSI outputs. Might it not be useful if the graphics could be switched on and off on the HDMI/HDSI outputs so that others on set not right next to the camera could see relevant information?

2. The HDMI/HDSI monitoring outputs cannot be switched into any mode but 720p. Is this because HDMI only supports 1080i not 1080p, so monitoring resolution is being sacrificed to preserve a progressive display? Might it not be better to allow the user the option to choose between 720p and 1080i depending on the circumstances? I guess you could use the Dual-Link HD-SDI output for 1080p monitoring, but Dual-Link monitors are rarer and more expensive.

3. The monitoring output is always 60p. I'm assuming 60 rather than 50/60 switchable as 60p is the default for 720p. 720p50 is a newer standard, which is not supported on many HD monitors (including my Panasonic BT-H1700P.) What then do the monitor outputs display when the camera is running at 'non-standard' frame rates? Can I eg shoot at 25fps, and have the monitor output use a form of pulldown to pad the frames up to 60p. Equally if shooting at 120fps, does the monitor output simply display every other frame at 60p?

Thanks

Nick

Nick Shaw

01-29-2007, 04:14 AM

Following on from my last thought, in fact I hope that the 720p monitoring outputs can be switched to run at 720p50. Since I will probably be mostly shooting at 25fps, I may well want to run a PAL downconvert of the picture for non critical viewing elsewhere on the set. It would be nice to simply use something like the AJA HD10MD3 but if the 720p output is 60p only, I could only easily downconvert that to NTSC. That means that the only way to get a frame-for-frame PAL downconvert would be to use the Dual-Link HD-SDI output, but the AJA converter does not take Dual-Link inputs. That means a bigger, more expensive, non camera mountable converter.

Given that the RED does not have SD outputs, then keeping the HD outputs as flexible as possible would certainly help.

Nick

Andrew M.

01-29-2007, 06:40 AM

As Stuart said, two HD-SDI ports will have monitoring outputs on top of EVF and LCD port.

As to the EVF and LCD why not to pick HDMI it supports 1080p60 RGB and all other 720p and 30 24 and other frame format.
It is very popular not expensive and very easy to get monitor for it.
If you have any high end remote monitor than most likely it will have HD-SDI interface on it.

Stuart, it is a good idea to have an option for 1080p60 just in case. Though the standard EVF and LCD could be 720p to start with.

Andrew

Stuart English

01-29-2007, 07:14 AM

Nick, sorry to paraphrase your comments -

1. Only the LCD and EVF display full camera GUI including surround view and audio levels and frame markers and other graphics. If you want exactly this on-set then you could remote the LCD output. Another approach could be - read camera stutus over usb/wi-fi, ingest the HDMI output into a Black Magic card and build your own P.C video village.

2. HDMI/HDSDI monitoring outputs are fixed at 720p. This is because 720p is the only single link HDSDI video format that allows us to show every frame rate up through 60fps (or 120fps).

3. You can also use the Dual-Link HD-SDI output for 1080p monitoring. For 4:2:2 color space, only one link of the Dual-Link is necessary. (The 1080p/60 format is supported under SMPTE dual link specs .....)

4. The HDMI and HD-SDI monitoring outputs support 50p / 60p. (Recheck your Panasonic / JVC LCD - the Panny W models all have 50/60)

5. What then do these monitor outputs display when the camera is running at 'non-standard' frame rates? If shooting at 25fps, do these monitor outputs use a form of pulldown to pad the frames up to 50p - Yes. If shooting at 24 fps will they pad the frames up to 60 fps - Yes. If shooting at 120fps, do these monitor outputs simply display every other frame at 60p - Yes.

Hope that this helps.

Nick Shaw

01-29-2007, 09:26 AM

Thanks for your detailed reply Stuart. All good news!

Glad to hear 720p50 is supported (though sadly my monitor is an older CRT not LCD model, and definitely does not do 720p50.)

But importantly I did not realise that the Dual-Link outputs could be run in Single-Link mode as well, so would be fine for feeding a monitor or down-converter. 4k@25 could be fed to the HD-SDI as 4:2:2 Single-Link 1080@25psf, which would be fine for both my monitor and the AJA converter.

Thanks again

Nick

Jean Déraps

01-29-2007, 09:52 AM

Whatever happened to the FireWire 800/400 interface that's listed on the red.com site?

Nick Shaw

01-29-2007, 11:10 AM

Whatever happened to the FireWire 800/400 interface that's listed on the red.com site?

The FireWire 800/400 interface is listed under the section on the Digital Medai Magazine. It will probably be one option for connecting a RED-DRIVE to a computer for downloading media. It is NOT used as a video interface like on DV cameras.

Nick

Rob Lohman

01-29-2007, 11:24 AM

Nick is correct

Chris Kenny

01-29-2007, 04:39 PM

No 1080p over HDMI? Would have been really nice for low-cost on-set monitoring. Oh, well. If the focus assist is good enough it's not a huge deal.

Steve Gibby

01-29-2007, 05:29 PM

The HDMI/HDSI monitoring outputs cannot be switched into any mode but 720p. Is this because HDMI only supports 1080i not 1080p,

I believe 1080p is included in the HDMI specifications, in other words HDMI will carry 1080p.

It may be too late to make the RED One spec, but with the proliferation of 1080p HDTV sets, which are HDMI, and usually dual HDMI bus equipped, it would be real useful if the RED One HDMI taps were menu-switchable between 720p and 1080p. This would allow RED One owners/users to view RED One footage via HDMI in 1080p on their 1080p HDTV sets - an added convenience especially when on the road and away from an edit bay monitor. If the frame rate was so high that 720p had to be used, then users would have to use that, but if they had shot 60fps or lower they would have the menu option to view the footage at 1080p resolution.

Those RED One users who only maintain field acquisition equipment, and whose freelance editors have the bays they edit on, would have a 1080p way to view their footage at home - on their HDMI equipped 1080p HDTV.

Stuart English

01-29-2007, 06:58 PM

Its 720p for now guys.

In the spirit of never say never, we'll keep consideration of 1080p open.....

1080p is available from the HD-SDI (dual link) output

Gbabymogul

01-29-2007, 09:39 PM

1080p is available from the HD-SDI (dual link) outputWhat monitors can do Dual Link HD/SDI ? The only one I can think of off hand is cinetal. Anybody know of any others ? (for the field production).

I'd really like to view 1080p for numerous reasons.

:beer:

Nick Shaw

01-30-2007, 03:37 AM

Stuart said earlier that the Dual-Link HD-SDI outputs can be run in Single-Link mode at 4:2:2. Anybody know if that can do 1080p60? It can certainly do 1080i60 and 1080psf24, which would give you the resolution you want. 1080i60 would show the motion characteristics of 60fps shooting, if that is available. Is it? Stuart? I know it was discussed before, but I can't find a definitive answer. Or is progressive to interlaced conversion only available in REDCINE?

Nick

Jeff Kilgroe

01-30-2007, 08:11 AM

Its 720p for now guys.

In the spirit of never say never, we'll keep consideration of 1080p open.....

1080p is available from the HD-SDI (dual link) output

OK... I'm curious. Why cripple the HDMI output to 720p?

And Yes, Gibby, you're right - HDMI does support 1080p. @ 24, 30, 50 and 60 Hz. And that's with 10bit color. To go beyond 10bit / 4:2:2, you need to move back over to DVI or go to HDMI v1.3.

Gbabymogul

01-30-2007, 11:51 AM

Stuart said earlier that the Dual-Link HD-SDI outputs can be run in Single-Link mode at 4:2:2. Anybody know if that can do 1080p60? It can certainly do 1080i60 and 1080psf24, which would give you the resolution you want.

Nick
Wouldn't the 4:4:4 be better than the 4:2:2 for monitoring/previewing footage processed through LUT's on set ?

Achhh, looking round a bit I couldn't find any other monitors that had Dual link HD/SDI. I know one of the cinetals goes for about $8K. Possbily, one of the BVM monitors has a dual link board, but at 88 pounds ; I wouldn't want to lug that sonofabitch around.

If we did run the monitoring out of the Dual link to a single HD/SDI input what would we need ? Extra attatchment ? , change in camera monitor menu setting ?

I guess I could save a bit of readies with a 720p monitor on set, but will probably spring for the 1080p single link mode .

:beer:

Nick Shaw

01-30-2007, 02:20 PM

I don't think you would really see the difference between 4:4:4 monitoring and 4:2:2. The reason 4:2:2 works is because of the lower chroma resolution than luma of the human eye. 4:4:4 only really comes into its own during post, for improved grading and keys. That's what I've always been lead to believe, anyway.

I would assume changing the Dual-Link to Single-Link mode is just a menu setting.

Nick

Andrew M.

02-06-2007, 08:17 AM

Its 720p for now guys.

In the spirit of never say never, we'll keep consideration of 1080p open.....

1080p is available from the HD-SDI (dual link) output
Stuart, not having 1080p via HDMI is real pain.
I know 720p will go up to 120 fps but is it so difficult to restrict 1080p to 60 frame where 720p will be left at full 120 fps?

Monitoring via HDSDI is very expensive, but the most important factor there is that these monitors are also very heavy. HDMI monitors are very light and technologically more advanced.

Can you at minimum do support 1080p for HDMI in the firmware now and do LCD/EVF as a daughter board that could be exchanged in the future with the new one supporting 1080p?

Andrew

Stuart English

02-07-2007, 03:51 AM

I'll post here what I posted in a different thread.

I'll also challenge the statment made that HDMI based monitors are "more advanced" than HD-SDI based ones. Lighter and cheaper yes, because they are made for consumer TV use and don't have such rugged chassis, input choices, advanced control systems or accurate color as professional video monitors.

The phrase "Dual-link HD-SDI" can mean one or both of two things - RED can support both.

a) Use of two links to provide 4:4:4 RGB monitoring at 1080p or -
b) Two duplicate outputs of 4:2:2 YUV (Y,Cr,Cb) at 720p or 1080i or 1080p.

To see 1080p you don't need a dual link capable monitor, any HD monitor with an HD-SDI input is fine. JVC has a 1080P HD-SDI + DVI LCD for ~$4K

The HD preview output (HD-SDI and HDMI, its the same signal) provides a Surround View + active record area + select graphics + audio. Its designed to allow a quick check of framing and composition for the director and other on-set - think video assist for a film camera. We chose to include HDMI as an output in addition to HD-SDI as it lets you plug in a wide range of inexpensive computer monitors or 12" - 32" size consumer LCD and plasma TVs.

If anyone wants to research available portable / battery powered, HDMI based multiframe rate 1080p monitors that can accept 23.98, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97 and 30.00 1080p signals it would be a valuable addition to all of our knowledge bases.

What we have seen in HD-SDI and HDMI products have all been XGA or SXGA resolution, so its pointless to send them 1080p and also limit the frame rate we can display to 30fps - which is why we chose 720p instead.
__________________
Workflow Wizard

Michael Morlan

02-21-2007, 10:14 AM

Would all interested parties post choices of monitors, capture cards, transcoders, etc that I haven't already included? My little map of related devices is pretty slim at the moment. I'll add them in the next few days.

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Andrew M.

02-21-2007, 10:27 AM

Michael, noticed small mistake on the diagram.
a) Use of two links to provide 4:4:4 RGB monitoring at 1080p or

You put 4:2:2 there.
Andrew

Phil Becque

02-21-2007, 10:51 AM

I'll post here what I posted in a different thread.

If anyone wants to research available portable / battery powered, HDMI based multiframe rate 1080p monitors that can accept 23.98, 24.00, 25.00, 29.97 and 30.00 1080p signals it would be a valuable addition to all of our knowledge bases.

__________________
Workflow Wizard

Hi Stuart,

Well take a squint at this - it would seem to have everything we want - Time Code, frame markers, 2 SDI inputs, 23 kinds of HD signal and be battery powered! Blimey! Result!

http://www.astro-systems.com/DM-3011/dm_3011_page1.html

This one looks useful but is mains powered - still at 30W it would be possible to run a 240VAC convertor off a 12V car battery or auto cigar lighter.

http://www.astro-systems.com/DM-3016-A/dm_3016_page1.html

I'll have to e-mail them for prices. I'll let you know. They look expensive to me. But then I'm a cheapskate.

All the best, Phil

Stuart English

02-21-2007, 11:29 AM

Phil Becque

02-21-2007, 12:41 PM

Thanks for that Tranquil Light.

Seems to be HD-SDI only and 1024 x 768 pixel resolution based on reading the spec sheets. Anyone get a different read? Even so, nice product and we can connect to our dual link HD-SDI outpuit at 1080p, although if it is 1024 x 758 the resolution of the display is lower than 720p (which I think you will find is true for almost all of these LCD based field monitors.

Yeah - you're right about the resolution - I hadn't looked at the PDF doc.

And they're not exactly cheap:

HDTV Price Sheet, 2007
HD/SD MONITORING
DM-3106 6” HD/SD LCD Monitor $5,500
DM-3008 8” HD/SD LCD Monitor 4:3 $5,500
DM-3009 8” HD/SD LCD monitor 4:3 $6,000
DM-3011 8”HD/SD LCD Monitor 16:9 $6,500
DM-3016 15” HD/SD LCD Monitor/Optional remote box $7,500
DM-3023 23” HD/SD LCD Monitor $9,500
DM-3032 32” HD-SD LCD Monitor $10,000
WM-3007 8” HD/SD Waveform/Vector scope monitor $11,000
WM-3014 6” HD/SD Waveform/Vector scope Monitor (fan less) $9,900

Oh well - back to the drawing board - I mean search engine on that one.

All the best, Phil

Joe Carney

02-21-2007, 01:13 PM

hmmm, wondering if JVC is a dirty word around here.
They are offering a 24" factory calibrated lcd that supports 1080p and 720p without scaling, with dual SDI and DVI for under 5K. Check my post in the color monitoring thread. If 720p is all that is needed for RED, they have a 20" model for even less.
fizxed broken link....

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101631&feature_id=01&itempath=null
Maybe I misread the specs, so if someone wants to check...

Phil Becque

02-21-2007, 01:21 PM

Hi Zeke,

Nothing wrong with JVC in my book and I know Stuart English mentioned them before as well. I didn't know about the 20" one that sounds more useful than 24" one. Errm your link seems to be broken mate, any chance you could re-post it for me?

Thanks a lot. Phil

Joe Carney

02-21-2007, 01:45 PM

link fixed

Andrew M.

02-21-2007, 01:52 PM

link fixed

Does JVC has 9" or 12" one like this?

david farland

02-21-2007, 01:58 PM

Check these out.

Smaller ones have less pixels. 23in has 1080P though.

http://www.lcdracks.com/monitors/HiDefinitionDigital.htm

DF

Phil Becque

02-21-2007, 02:40 PM

Check these out.

Smaller ones have less pixels. 23in has 1080P though.

http://www.lcdracks.com/monitors/HiDefinitionDigital.htm

DF

Nice one David,

These look better to me and they are less expensive. No timecode I guess?

Best regards, Phil

Cail Young

02-21-2007, 04:38 PM

I didn't know about the 20" one that sounds more useful than 24" one.

My only concern with the 20" is that it won't do 1:1 1080 line display, it has to scale it down.

david farland

02-21-2007, 06:04 PM

Phil....The 23'' does look nice
http://www.lcdracks.com/racks/pdf_pages/v-r231p-afhd.pdf

The other option is using converters and it's just one more reason to get a BM Multibridge Extreme except they don't have frame markers.
Ring 'em up and bug them thou as its probably a simple firmware addition.
DF

tj williams

02-28-2007, 07:46 PM

michael: perhaps you could add a little more detail to your chart: It is seen by more visitors that practically anything meaningful:

1. Data RAtesEsata to RED drive/RED flash for 4K raw (about 1000gb hr?)
2K RAW I couldn't find it?
RGB 1080P24?
1080I29.97?
720P24?

2. It would also be nice to see what the speed of each format coming out of the drive/flash by each type output.

Michael Morlan

03-02-2007, 02:05 PM

Been away on a feature shoot. Just found some time to update. Here's the latest diagram with some additional monitors and transcoders added to the website.

I added image sizes where approprate.

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

michael: perhaps you could add a little more detail to your chart: It is seen by more visitors that practically anything meaningful:

1. Data RAtesEsata to RED drive/RED flash for 4K raw (about 1000gb hr?)
2K RAW I couldn't find it?
RGB 1080P24?
1080I29.97?
720P24?

2. It would also be nice to see what the speed of each format coming out of the drive/flash by each type output.

Data rates: Good idea. I'll dredge up info on data rates from the past threads and Mike Curtis' blog. I have noted data rates on the RedCine Workflow page.

The rates/sizes you ask about are all on the diagram already:
"2K RAW" = "2K RedCode 1-60fps" from the e-SATA port (I added "RAW" to the description now.)
"RGB 1080P24" = "1080p RGB 24,25,30fps" from the HDMI port
"1080I29.97" - there are no interlaced formats from the Red One. 1080P60 may be interlaced in post (stripping away half the data.)
"720P24" = "720p RGB 1-120fps (s16/B4)" coming from the HDMI port

Speeds coming off of drive/flash. Do you mean frame rate or data rate? One may presume the frame rates noted going into the drive/flash units will be the same coming off. Once I add the data rates, we may presume they will be the same coming off the drives as well.

edit: Actually, I suppose it's possible that dumping date off a capture drive can be faster than "realtime" recording. :-) Those data rates are still to be determined.

Michael

tj williams

03-06-2007, 04:21 PM

Wonderful diagram Michael, I've already used it to explain workflow to several clients...Thanks!!!

I have believed that the size of the sensor in windowed is the same regardless if we are recording 2k or 720P thus 2/3 would be ok on all windowed sizes. However with the caveat that 2/3 lenses must be converted to S16 coverage with the abakus adapter or equiv. thus they become in effect S16 Pl lenses.
have posted this other places to get an authoritive opinion, but it makes sense as other wise the 720 would all be tele on my S16 glass?

digital techy goof on me.... By speed fm camera I meant "data rate" by transfer output I meant time to transfer some quantity of material. sorry... but I'm still looking for where the perfs go on the mags???

Hope given the visability on this thread that RED TEAM will jump in to let us know the current "data rates" for the other recording formats incl: 2K raw and RGB 1080 720???? Saw that latest RED 4K raw is 95 now not 100...

Rob Lohman

03-06-2007, 06:18 PM

As indicated here http://red.com/formatoptions.htm 720p can be derived from numerous source "formats"

Michael Morlan

03-06-2007, 07:28 PM

TJ,

Glad to hear the diagram is being put to good use. I put it together so I could wrap my head around all the data and dialogue spinning about the forums.

M

wlaroussi

03-07-2007, 10:28 AM

Hi ,

Monitors should be used for postproduction too . After a tour in many forums i heard that grading or "color correction" may take hours in some compositing softwares that can handle 2K/4K resolution . As far as i'm concerned Red one is a revolutionary 2K/4K camera , otherwise i'll get an HDXcam or Panasonic P2 . Now the question is when transcoding using redcine to uncompressed sequence files (the ones used by speedgrade or the expensive lustre while premiere pro use finesse plugin) does the file size remain the same (as small as redcode) ? Is there a monitoring solution for speedgrade ? I did not find any on their website . At the end i'll be surprised to do postproduction without a professional grading tool .

Joe Carney

03-07-2007, 11:49 AM

Hopefully this is a simple question to answer.
If I record 4K Redcode at 24p to the eSata drive..
is the color space 4:4:4? Not asking if it's 10 or 12bit.
If not, which options give me 4:4:4 color space without resorting to RGB?

Thans for the diagram, it really helps.

Joe C.

Chris Kenny

03-07-2007, 01:30 PM

Hopefully this is a simple question to answer.
If I record 4K Redcode at 24p to the eSata drive..
is the color space 4:4:4? Not asking if it's 10 or 12bit.

It's bayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter) data. You can de-bayer (in Redcine) to a format that's nominally 4:4:4, but what the resolution of the color information (or of the image in general, for that matter) actually is... that's a fairly complex question.

tj williams

03-07-2007, 02:30 PM

Thanks Rob. That particular table is the root of several folks believing the windowed sensor worked at both Super 16m size and 2/3" size! My post was not about the ways 720p can be derived but about the size of the sensor when windowed. Because of your suggestion I started another thread about this issued and have not only got a solid answer but also info about adapting B4 lenses. Take a look.

Michael
Your diagram should be on the RED site. what a labor of love. We have all got a lot out of it. not only to wrap our own heads around a complex workflow with many options but also to have sensible questions in advance of actual experience.

Michael Morlan

03-12-2007, 08:40 PM

Thanks, TJ.

Okay, I updated the diagram to reflect the red.com pricing announcement.

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Enjoy,

Michael

Andrew M.

03-12-2007, 08:46 PM

I think some RAM FLASH option is mutually exclusive with RAW data port.

david farland

03-12-2007, 08:51 PM

You're a genius....

One thing (of course), do you want to differentiate between Sata 1 for REDDRIVE/REDRAM and Sata 2 for REDFLASH or RAWPORT?

Cheers and thanks, your diag has helped many

DF

Michael Morlan

03-12-2007, 09:41 PM

I think some RAM FLASH option is mutually exclusive with RAW data port.

Yep. If you look at the RED One block, you'll note the word "-OR-" between "e-SATA" and "RAW". Maybe I should make it bigger. ;-)

...do you want to differentiate between Sata 1 for REDDRIVE/REDRAM and Sata 2 for REDFLASH or RAWPORT?

Hmm. It doesn't matter to the RED One itself. I could add the labels to the drives, I suppose.

Anders Holck

03-12-2007, 10:39 PM

The red drive and red ram goes to the sata port and is always enabled.

The other flash options are interchangable with each other or factory interchangable with the raw port, and are not connected to the sata bus connector.
I think you should add a small square that reads camera expansion port, with the options of the raw port and each of the flash ports (CF, expresscard or 32GB 1.8" sata)

david farland

03-12-2007, 11:24 PM

Andrew M.

03-13-2007, 07:00 AM

Mike,
The camera will have 2 sata ports.

As Anders says, one for the REDDRIVE & REDRAM which is always enabled.
The 2nd sata port will be to drive the sata flash unit.
This 2nd sata port shares the same physical location as the optical RAW PORT and will be disabled if you install the RAW PORT.

Also I'm 'secretly' hoping we could do some extra stuff like:
Backup the flash units to the RED DRIVE.
Install the RED DRIVE in the 2nd sata port to backup REDRAM
Install 3rd party sata drives in 2nd sata port for backup.

Cheers,
DF

RAW port is more then 3 times faster then SATA
I was hoping that some memory options installed instead of high speed port will let us record RAW (not REDCODE RAW) That is why it is factory installed option for high speed port or high speed flash, not both.
I know, I know RAW clicks at ~1.055GBytes/sec but still, with current technology you could get 2 minutes out of 120GB flash.

david farland

03-13-2007, 07:17 AM

Andrew,

Flash may have the memory size but it's i/o doesn't have that 1GB/sec bandwidth.
DF

Michael Morlan

03-13-2007, 08:01 AM

David/Anders/Andrew, thanks for the correction:

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Andrew M.

03-13-2007, 10:54 AM

Andrew,

Flash may have the memory size but it's i/o doesn't have that 1GB/sec bandwidth.
DF

I think RAM Disks do not have enough i/o speed but FLASH memory cards based on the Express slot do? Any FLASH memory out there for Express slot?

Anders Holck

03-13-2007, 03:20 PM

Just a slight correction. The EVF and LCD are connected to a custom multipin connector. The image connection is based on DVI.

You might want to edit your very first post to the most recent diagram...

Stuart English

03-13-2007, 04:02 PM

HDMI is 720p irrespective of the optical format or resolution / frame rate you are shooting... think of it as a HD video equivalant of a video assist on a film camera.

Michael Morlan

03-13-2007, 04:09 PM

Got it. HDMI via custom hi-rose multi-pin connector:

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Paul Hazlett

03-13-2007, 04:24 PM

REDFLASH records the same kind of information as RED-DRIVE, so I don't think you need a different line or something on the chart for that.

More questions about the RAW port can be answered by Stuart. As far as I know that does not connect to a PC. You connect to RED-RAID which you can also connect to a PC (similar to RED-DRIVE).
__________________
Code Chef @ RED
www.RED.com

RED RAID RED RAID!!!!...danny isn't here any more mrs. torrance....

sorry could not resist.

When will we get specs about red raid? Is it still in R&D?

david farland

03-13-2007, 04:34 PM

Mike,

I don't envy you having to put this shit together...........

Stuart...Do you mean Mike should be labelling the evf/lcd outputs as 720p?

Phaz, the extra sata line (channel) to RED-FLASH is to reflect when you install RAW o/p, you disable this extra sata line to the RED-FLASH but keep the original REDDRIVE sata line.

Cail Young

03-13-2007, 06:37 PM

Apologies if I missed something, but what happened to the HD-SDI monitoring output? (as opposed to the dual-link HD-SDI record feed)

Rob Lohman

03-13-2007, 06:44 PM

Single link HD-SDI is there for monitoring also. Dual-link HD-SDI for recording (if you want to) or clean feed monitoring. So that's a total of three HD-SDI connectors on the body.

Michael Morlan

03-14-2007, 07:30 AM

Single link HD-SDI is there for monitoring also. Dual-link HD-SDI for recording (if you want to) or clean feed monitoring. So that's a total of three HD-SDI connectors on the body.

Rob,

Are there two HD-SDI ports, one for the EVF and on for LCD? Plus the Dual-link?

Michael

Rob Lohman

03-14-2007, 08:21 AM

EVF & LCD are DVI based, besides that there are three HD-SDI connectors.

Michael Hastings

03-14-2007, 09:37 AM

Rob:

Do you know where we are on the production timeline for the LCD - i.e. is it available now - or will be sooner than the cameras. I manufacture underwater housings and would like to get my hands on the LCD sooner so that we can make a separate case for the LCD, and in some ways this takes longer than making the initial housings for the camera itself.

Also we would like to be some sort of dealer/systems integrator - at least for the accessories (I know they have initially resisted having dealers for the camera) and wondered which team member would be in charge of that sort of thing.

EVF & LCD are DVI based, besides that there are three HD-SDI connectors.

Rob Lohman

03-14-2007, 01:36 PM

I don't know, I'm on the tech team. Suggest you shoot an email to 4k@red.com with your inquiry!

david farland

03-14-2007, 05:00 PM

Just to summarise!!

1. RED CAMERA A/V OUTPUTS
- HDMI x 1
- E-SATA x 2
- HD-SDI Dual x 1
- HD-SDI Single x 1
- Mini XLR input x 4
- Mini XLR output x 1
- 10Gb ethernet (single mode) fibre port x 1

2. CAMERA LIVE OUTPUTS
- EVF = 720p video with look around, frame markers and other graphics
- RED LCD = 600p video with look around, frame markers and other graphics
- HDMI = 720p video plus audio without graphics
- HD-SDI x single = 720p video plus audio without graphics
- HD-SDI x dual = 1080p clean signal

3. CONTROL
- SD card (settings & wi-fi [802.11] control)
- USB x 1
- B4 Lens interface?

4. POWER
- Input= ?
- Output = 2 unregulated 11.5-17V (battery pass through) Lemo outlets

5. RED STORAGE MODULES OUTPUTS
RED DRIVE/ RED RAM
- FW 400/800
- USB 2
- eSATA (power required)

RED (EC) FLASH
- FW 400/800
- USB 2

RED 1.8” SATA FLASH
- eSATA

6. RED-CINE
- White balance (Kelvin / tint)
- Saturation
- Gain
- Exposure
- Brightness
- Shadow
- Contrast
- Curves
- Output gamma
- Resizing, cropping & positioning

Cheers,
DF

Stuart English

03-14-2007, 07:40 PM

EVF and LCD are customised DVI on a Hirose push lock connector

HDMI uses a standard HDMI connector and pin out, just plug in a HDMI cable

There is a companion HD-SDI that shares the same 720p feed as the HDMI

So whether you have an HD-SDI or HDMI (DVI via an HDMI-DVI adaptor) you have an appropriate monitoring output.

david farland

03-14-2007, 08:14 PM

Stuart,
Wow, a lot happening in the output stage!

When you say 'customised DVI' on Hirose connector, do you mean standard DVI signal 'customised' for Hirose connector.

DF
ps: you can guess what my next question is gonna be!

tj williams

03-14-2007, 09:28 PM

Michael, You might consider putting a * by the 2/3 B mount.... and a note below

* Use of 2/3 B mount requires a S16 Optical adapter.

IMO

I suggest this because we keep getting folk who believe the sensor windows in two ways in both S16 and 2/3....

Michael Morlan

03-17-2007, 07:45 AM

Latest update:

added companion HD-SDI out alongside HDMI out
added TJ's note about the B4 mount

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Enjoy,

M

Joe Carney

03-17-2007, 07:45 AM

One area that seems to have escaped much discussion is audio.
What options are available?

Joe C.

Stuart English

03-17-2007, 08:59 AM

Getting very close -

Keep the first e-SATA as e-SATA - i.e the one that feeds the RED-DRIVE etc

Change the second one to SATA - i.e the one that feeds the RED-FLASH options

Michael Morlan

03-17-2007, 03:36 PM

Thanks Stuart:

http://austinfilmtools.com/assets/gear/red_one_workflow.gif (http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm)

Enjoy,

M

tj williams

03-17-2007, 05:50 PM

Michael, what a work of art or labor of love or ....

About the speeds of acquisition: ie 1 to 30 FPS. NTSC tv is not 30 frames per second it is actually 29.97... fps. Does RED vary in even frames like for film transfer 24 30 etc. or do we also have speeds such as 29.97 and 23.97 for easy TV transfer?

Is the variable speed of RED like... 1fps 2 fps 3 fps etc etc. or is it in smaller divisions ie 5.62 fps?

Anders Holck

03-17-2007, 06:02 PM

From the Red format page:

24fps includes 23.98 and 24.00Hz , 60fps includes 59.94 and 60.00Hz

tj williams

03-17-2007, 08:56 PM

Thanks Anders, you are better at looking this up than me and English is my first language... Are the steps in variable speed in there somewhere???
Thanks

Michael perhaps these speeds could be added.... as we are all looking at your flowchart now....

Stuart English

03-18-2007, 09:32 AM

Ralph Oshiro

03-18-2007, 08:32 PM

Michael:

This has been such an awesome effort by you--thank you! I know many users here appreciate all your hard work, your graphic design skill, your valuable time, and effort that you've put into keeping this thing clear, concise, and up-to-date. Again, THANK YOU!

Jarred Land

03-18-2007, 09:43 PM

Micheal.. incredible stuff. so good infact, that im making this its own sticky thread.

Michael Morlan

03-19-2007, 10:00 AM

Jarred,

Many thanks. I'm glad the exercise of clarifying things for myself has been useful to so many others.

I'll continue to update the diagram, which will automatically update in this thread and the first page of the sticky.

Best,

Michael

Andrew M.

03-19-2007, 10:29 AM

In the spirit of keeping this accurate, the HD preview signal output pair - consisting of HDMI and HD-SDI currently operate at 720p, irrespective of the format being shot.

This has previously been discussed elsewhere on the forum, so is not "new" information. Of course 1080p is available from the "dual link" HD-SDI outputs.

i.e there are three HD-SDI's , one is a 720p based HD Preview and is mirrored on the HDMI output, the other two comprise the "dual link" HD-SDI outputs. The description of those (i.e liked or duped) is correct.

Stuart, we already discussed monitoring at 1080p and you convinced me that it is not a good time for this yet. So the first HDMI is coupled with the monitoring port.

I have one question, how difficult it is to make another HDMI output functionally coupled with the “dual link” HD-SDI ? So the same output will show on both.
I am just interested to take 4:4:4 RGB out on HD-SDI and HDMI.

Chris Kenny

03-19-2007, 02:08 PM

Stuart, we already discussed monitoring at 1080p and you convinced me that it is not a good time for this yet. So the first HDMI is coupled with the monitoring port.

I have one question, how difficult it is to make another HDMI output functionally coupled with the “dual link” HD-SDI ? So the same output will show on both.
I am just interested to take 4:4:4 RGB out on HD-SDI and HDMI.

Get an HDLink (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/) for $445.

Andrew M.

03-19-2007, 02:31 PM

Get an HDLink (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/) for $445.

Thanks! Chris.
I was just hoping to get this signal straight from the RED since HDMI interface is there, already.

Nick Shaw

03-19-2007, 04:50 PM

I don't think the HDLink does 1080p60. Just 24, 25 and 30.

Anders Holck

03-19-2007, 05:25 PM

The HDLink supports a max resolution of 1080p30 or 1080i60.

This gefen adapter:
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3876

Supports both 1080p60 and 2kp24 using dual link HD-SDI:
http://www.gefen.com/specsheets/hdsditodviscalerspec.shtml

Everything is scaled to a chosen output resolution, from 640x350/85Hz to 1920x1200/60Hz

One other bonus is that it has loop connectors for the HD-SDI

Anarri

07-25-2007, 07:45 PM

Hey Michael and the rest who are interested in monitors that accept HD-SDI dual-link inputs.

Check out this link:
http://www.tvlogic.co.kr/eng/index.php

I have been a happy user of their product and have used their 8.4 inch field monitor on documentary shoots with a range of Panny's and Sony's HD cameras with great results. Not sure how this will translate to monitoring for the RED One.

I don't work for them or have any financial interest, just helping the community to be more aware of the available options out there.

Check this baby out!

LVM - 570W NEW!
57 inch Multi-Format Monitor

Multi-Format 2 Channel SDI Signal Support
(480i, 576i, 720P, 1035i, 1080i, 1080P, 1080PsF)

· Input - 1 DVI, 3 BNC (Analog), 2 BNC (SDI)
· Output - 2 BNC (SDI)
· LCD Resolution -1920 X 1080 (16:9)
· Dot Pitch - 0.651mm
· Color - 16.7M (true), 24bit
· Contrast - 1200:1
· Viewing Angle - 178°
· Power - AC 100-240V
· Power Consumption (Approx) - 516 Watts
· Weight - 57Kg
· Dual-Link (4:4:4 and 1080p60 compatible) - option

Cheers!

Anan