Red MultiCam live Mixing for Cinemas

[jimhare]

Hi,

I do a lot of Red multicam shooting in live theaters in Sydney Australia, and have gotten this to a science the last couple of years.

I am now being asked to do a live cut from the Reds, and microwave the signal about 4 blocks so it can be streamed live into cinemas around the country. Live mixing and transfer of 5.1 audio as well...

On the surface, no problem! Whack an HD-SDI mixer in there, hire a company to microwave the signal and done.

But it gets more complicated quickly. Initially we'll be limited to 720P until Epic comes out, there is no CCU so we will be calling for manual iris pulls etc. The audio signal will need to be delayed to match vision, I'm thinking by up to 6 frames by the time it is mixed... :mad2:

The O/B companies will want nothing to do with me so I'll need to dry hire or bring in a producer to coordinate everything... :glare:

Does anyone out there have any advice or past experience for me?

Thanks!

Jim Hare
Sydney Australia

[alexx_hg]

...
The O/B companies will want nothing to do with me so



understandable, a triaxx or multicorecable is all what they are used to...

I would recommend GrassValleys mobile Indigo with the extensionboard (8 HDSDI in) because the most important things are built in:
build in colorcorrection for each input, when you can´t align the cameras exactly as you need for live, depends of how much control do you have for the enviroments (light, position etc)
build in audio delay management for HDSDI out with embedded Audio. (you can make your own mix in the build in audio mixer - 4-band parametric equalizer and motor-driven audio faders).
To my experience the delay is around 80-100ms. If you presync the cameras it should be shorter but needs extra cabelling and a trilevel syncgenerator. (I never used it)
720p is ok because most of the mobile mixers undestand only 1080i.(the mixer could convert to 1080i if needed for the microwave)
You can run approxm 100m with good cables, you will need an additional audiocable for Intercom (director to each camera) or wireless (expensive)
Rehearsals and strong nerves for the director and the cameramen

btw. build 30 with clean feed and CLR view works far better as earlier builds

good luck

bg
alex

[Roger Crouse]

A NewTek Tricaster might be able to do the job for you. An added advantage would be you could stream it yourself and eliminate the microwave stage.

http://www.newtek.com/tricaster/

The TCXD300 has 3 SDI inputs. The TCXD850 has 8. Each input has a proc amp.

Good luck.

[jimhare]

Hey Guys, thanks for the advice!

Jim

[Tom Gleeson]

GrassValleys mobile Indigo with the extensionboard (8 HDSDI in) because the most important things are built in:
build in colorcorrection for each input, when you can´t align the cameras exactly as you need for live,


I am sure the Grassvalley is a good solution but alternatively you could line up all your cameras shooting a single chart and go into the Video Menu and you have sufficient adjustment to line up the cameras. Its not the most efficient process of bringing your cameras into line but would work.

Unsure how tolerant modern vision mixers are but I suspect you would be best served running all the cameras off a single SPG producing trisync. You will need to run a cable to each camera anyway so running a second cable for sync is not much harder. High quality cables would be a must and hopefully cable runs are not too long.

The microwave link van may be able to sort out the audio delay? I have some good contacts for setting this up if you are interested.

[Jeremy Wiles]

A NewTek Tricaster might be able to do the job for you. An added advantage would be you could stream it yourself and eliminate the microwave stage.

http://www.newtek.com/tricaster/

The TCXD300 has 3 SDI inputs. The TCXD850 has 8. Each input has a proc amp.

Roger, I have the NewTek Tricaster and I can't get a feed on the RED camera. However, I don't have the latest Tricaster. I was told by Tricaster it can't pull signals from certain cameras.

[Jack Cooper]

Roger, I have the NewTek Tricaster and I can't get a feed on the RED camera. However, I don't have the latest Tricaster. I was told by Tricaster it can't pull signals from certain cameras.

Jim, do you still need this info...?

Jeremy, you have to use the Tricaster 3 or 8 series - they are the only ones that pull the HD-SDI signal into the box...All other series are SD only.

Our team ran two Red Ones for Ketch's Epic Houston Tour...signal was amazing and Tricaster handles it well.

The streaming services are still not up to par for us - both have issues we would like to see corrected if they want to leave the UGV world

[Jeremy Wiles]

Thanks, Jack. That's good to know.

[David Diperstein]

Have you seen this bad boy? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/681562-REG/Panasonic_AG_HMX100_AG_HMX100_Digital_AV_Mixer.htm l

[Brigham Edgar]

Heh Jim, I'll give you a call. One of my colleagues up here as a new great setup for this type of thing and is a built flyaway system. it's a tricaster i think but can't be too certain. All i know is they have already done a few multicam jobs including a RED with it. I know a bunch of OB techs as well that are freelance and should be able to help. Anyway, will call you...

[Jack Cooper]

Have you seen this bad boy? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/681562-REG/Panasonic_AG_HMX100_AG_HMX100_Digital_AV_Mixer.htm l

David...If you look at the images of the connections on the back...I'm not thinking that Panasonic will accept HD-SDI...It looks only SD...I haven't used this before, but a quick call to a tech rep should confirm. That would eliminate Red Ones...However, the HDMI port (it has two) might give you access to the Epic stream.

Also of note...this Panasonic device appears to only have the mix/switch functions. The pricing differentials on the Tricaster represent the "streaming" functions that are in addition to the more traditional mix/switch. Hence, no ethernet connect on the Pani -- I'm not sure if this was an original spec requirement from Jim.

[jimhare]

Thanks for the revived interest all, but my post was in regards to a specific brief about 9 months ago so I'm not currently seeking info. :coolgleamA:

The thread was brought back to life this morning, after laying dormant since September. :closedeyes:

Feel free to carry on to share Tricaster info, but I'm sorted.

Thanks guys! :cheers2:

Jim

[David Diperstein]

Jim, Glad to hear you got it sorted out. Still a subject of interest and I wonder if anyone will be using Red's with a cheap switcher for pretty event work.

Jack, I found this in the specs:
SDI Input BNC (4 sets)
SD serial digital signal: SMPTE259M-C/272M-A and ITU-R BT.656-4 standards
HD serial digital signal: SMPTE292M/296M/299M standards

it looks like it should be good to go.

I like that it can switch 2 3d 1080/23.98 streams. Kinda sexy.

[Jack Cooper]

Jim, Glad to hear you got it sorted out. Still a subject of interest and I wonder if anyone will be using Red's with a cheap switcher for pretty event work.

Jack, I found this in the specs:
SDI Input BNC (4 sets)
SD serial digital signal: SMPTE259M-C/272M-A and ITU-R BT.656-4 standards
HD serial digital signal: SMPTE292M/296M/299M standards

it looks like it should be good to go.

I like that it can switch 2 3d 1080/23.98 streams. Kinda sexy.

David,

Would be interested to know if anyone has any field experience with the panasonic device. At that price point, it seems to be a really good value in light of the ability to accept the HD-SDI inputs. If your not streaming, I would seriously be considering using that equipment.

[David Diperstein]

It would nearly double the gear cost, but you could loop it through something like a Teradek Odyssey and then take that into an Atomos Samurai over the SDI. For an extra $4.5k you could be streaming and get an uninterrupted record of your entire event in Prores. Or you could maybe get one of those JVC stand alone bluray burners to make a master for your client and then use its pass-through hooked up to a Teradek Cube to go out to the internet. So many choices these days.