detailed 2k workflow

[till]

Hello...i told my company about red...they are interessted...but i have to "present" a 2k workflow.
For our needs it is enough to have a 2k Master.

can someone describe a detailed 2k workflow, please ?
thank you very much.

what i guess ( probably wrong) :

online:
shoot 4k
redalert: 2k DPX 10 bit RGB Lin
edit in FCP
send to Color
end

offline:
shoot 4k
redalert: 2k proxy QT
edit in FCP
but then ?

[Brandon Fraley]

i wont be too helpful here, but thought i'd mention that you can shoot 2k also, especially if you know you're finishing in 2k

[till]

i know that it is possible to shoot 2k, but i don`t know the workflow in detail,

i am not a technichian...would be very cool, if i can convince the guys

I just want to be able to say ...hey guys, look at this pics...look at this workflow, go on and order.

[mezmo]

Hi Till,
Read all the threads here, you'll get a good idea.
It's a little complex.
Mezmo

[till]

i started with red present 4k workflow...it is really complicated.
but as far as i understand there are 2 ways:

you have the goodies:
offline in fcp
finish with scratch/ or Cineform AE

you don`t have the goodies:
offline in fcp
take your footage and EDL to post house.
spend some money, get your master, filmout etc.

but thank you...
it would be very cool if there would be a thread just about the differenent workflows.
like the config. ( yellow threads). etc.

[laguun]

optional - colorcorrect on set with speedgrade on set
generate 2k uncompressed for on, cineform 2k proxy for on/offline.
edit premiere or fcp, osx or ppro win
colorcorrect iridas speedgrade, osx or win
switch to uncompressed master or stay cineform
output.

all this will become much easier once redcine is available.

[till]

i thought i can do 1st cc just with redalert because of red files. then convert the files...in any format.

how can i cc on set with speedgrade?

or am i missing something.

[laguun]

i thought i can do 1st cc just with redalert because of red files. then convert the files...in any format.

how can i cc on set with speedgrade?

or am i missing something.

export from ra, and with speedgrade on set (or even the full version) you can store the .look file on set.
this can then be used in the online, also automatically.
http://spotlight.iridas.com/200611/
gives some insight and they also have a free trial download of the 2006 version for osx and win.

iridas supports all raw cameras (phantom 65, arri D20, si 2k & mini, weisscam) which became available before red, and they told us at IBC that once red specifies the r3d raw format, they will support it at once as well.

i and many of our dps like that workflow especially for fullfeature. with the inexpensive speedgrade on set they email us the .look and a small image and we can respond with more detailed variations (or checkout problematic areas) back in the studio.

they evolved that workfow since 2001, when their products were used for the matrix II & III pipeline.
http://spotlight.iridas.com/200411/index.html

[GlennChan]

Till, I think the workflows may vary a little depending on your needs. Some of the workflow details also aren't clear right now (e.g. Redcine).

Do you need to make dailies? Color corrected dailies?
Do you need to support double system sound?

Are you going to online on a serious online system and/or color grading system? (e.g. Flame, Mystika, iQ, etc. etc.) If so then you need to go through the offline/online process
For other people, it's more efficient to avoid offline/online if you can. Because you need to spend a chunk of time conforming the show. However, you don't have your project in one of the fast+powerful systems that are good at online editing (in comparison, FCP is neither; AE and Color are powerful, but not fast).


send to Color
There are some issues to watch out for with Color. Test! Once you know where the landmines are, you will not have problems and can get work done. See the stickied thread in 4k workflow.

2- To clarify... my usage of offline/online seems to differ from yours. The first stage of editing is offline editing. The second stage is online editing, where you may do any of the following:
a- Re-capture your footage at higher quality. (In the case of Red you would re-output with a high quality deBayer.)
b- Move and conform the project to a different editing/finishing system. If it's all on the same computer, then you don't really move anything.
c- Change the codec settings to output/deBayer at highest quality. (Not sure if Redcode RAW will do this; this is what Cineform RAW does.)

If you only have one stage of editing/don't do the above, then offline/online doesn't apply.

[GlennChan]

Some example workflows:

Shoot 4K if you can. This gives you the most options + highest quality. You can do things like export 4K stills for publicity, sell your footage as stock footage (better if it's 4K), do punch ins (zoom in /reframe), stabilize the image, etc.

A- Convert everything to Prores.

This will give you the most real-time performance in FCP. You will take a very small hit in quality by converting to Prores. But it's a simple workflow and I'd consider it the baseline. There shouldn't be issues in sending to Color (other than not having too many cuts).

--Shoot 4K.
--In the field you might want to do some sort of backup on the 4K RAW files, possibly onto LTO tape or other data/computer tape format.
Or maybe shoot it all onto compact flash, and backup later.
--When it gets to post, convert all the clips to Prores. You may or may not want to omit bad takes (shouldn't matter that much).
--Plop files into FCP, edit away.
--Do any finishing and color work in FCP and/or AE and Color.

*AFAIK prores doesn't do 2K resolution???

B- Edit via Quicktime reference files

The camera and Redquick will generate quicktime reference files that point to the RAW footage. They will deliver a real-time proxy extraction of the 4K material.

Load these files into a compatible NLE (e.g. any quicktime-compatible NLE like FCP, Premiere, Vegas, and some others; Avid won't support this since it needs media in MXF wrapper).

Finish offline edit.

Send EDL (or maybe XML) to redcine. Redcine will, from that list, figure out what clips need to be de-Bayered at high quality. It will output the high quality clips in a format of your choice (DPX, Quicktime, TIFF presumably; and openEXR). The Red Pull List is involved somewhere (details are sketchy on this?)... you may need it if offline and online are being done in two separate facilities???
Anyways, one would presume that you will end up with an EDL that references the high quality clips. So you send that EDL to your finishing program, and it should hopefully be able to figure out where the clips referenced in the EDL are. From what I remember in Color, it will only do this if all your clips are in the same folder (as the EDL).

You need to pay attention to the conform process. No illegal characters, no reel names longer than 8 characters, plus other issues.

And you'll need to re-create effects other than cut, dissolve, and linear speed change.

[Cail Young]

*AFAIK prores doesn't do 2K resolution???

Prores is res-independent, but I haven't tried building a 2K timeline in FCP with Prores. I'll try it now!

EDIT: Works just fine!

[Michele Gavazzeni]

There's a little problem using image sequence in FCP.

RGB Image Files and Sequences Issue
When importing a still image file or sequence into Final Cut Pro, the gamma may be incorrectly boosted when the sequence is output to video or rendered as a QuickTime movie.

Solution
Convert image sequences to QuickTime movies prior to importing them into Final Cut Pro. This makes them easier to import, and also ensures that their gamma won't be changed. For the highest quality, use either the Uncompressed 8- or 10-bit 4:2:2 codec when performing this conversion, depending on the bit depth of the source image files. QuickTime Player is not recommended for this operation, as it may perform an unwanted bit-depth conversion with greater than 8-bit images.

What causes this?
Final Cut Pro assumes that all RGB image files are created with a gamma of 1.8. When RGB image files are imported into Final Cut Pro and edited into a sequence set to 8- or 10-bit YUV rendering, the gamma is automatically boosted to 2.2 in an attempt to match the other video files in your project. This boosted gamma is then used when the sequence is output to video or rendered as a QuickTime movie.

During playback on your computer's monitor, Final Cut Pro lowers the gamma of the sequence playing in the Canvas to 1.8 for display purposes. This is to approximate the way it will look when displayed on a broadcast monitor. The still image clips in your sequence are still boosted when the sequence is output to video or rendered as a QuickTime movie.

Important: QuickTime movies compressed using the Animation codec (which only supports the RGB color space) are also assumed to have been created with a gamma of 1.8. As a result, these clips are also boosted to 2.2 when edited into a sequence set to 8- or 10-bit YUV rendering.

[M Most]

Prores is res-independent, but I haven't tried building a 2K timeline in FCP with Prores. I'll try it now!

EDIT: Works just fine!

What exactly is the point of "editing in 2K" - and I'm assuming "2K" to mean 2048x1556, or possibly in your case, 2048x1080? What exactly are you planning to deliver from this and how? If it's HD video - and in most cases, it probably is - why would you not use 1920x1080? If you're planning on a film recording, there's a lot more to prepping elements for this than the actual image size, and using "2K" in place of HD doesn't really affect any of them. So what exactly is the reason?

[laguun]

What causes this?
Final Cut Pro assumes that all RGB image files are created with a gamma of 1.8. When RGB image files are imported into Final Cut Pro and edited into a sequence set to 8- or 10-bit YUV rendering, the gamma is automatically boosted to 2.2 in an attempt to match the other video files in your project. This boosted gamma is then used when the sequence is output to video or rendered as a QuickTime movie.

Another warning here - FCP can´t do 10bit RGB, only 8bit. For filmout and most VFX/3D you would want RGB.

[Cail Young]

What exactly is the point of "editing in 2K" - and I'm assuming "2K" to mean 2048x1556, or possibly in your case, 2048x1080? What exactly are you planning to deliver from this and how?

My post was in response to someone asking if ProRes could do 2K - I took it one step further and wanted to see if FCP6 would allow a 2K timeline with ProRes. The only use I could see is one-stage editorial through to Color which may be able to export log 2K dpx files from a ProRes-FCP import...

[till]

the needs are to have a 2k Master for filmoutput....cinema commercials ( for local companys)

We make local tv commercials...and i told the guys about red. we can afford 2k for filmoutput.

As far as I understand....trying to finish with FCP causes a lot of problems:
( color issue, 8 bit issue...)

On the other side you can go the Cineform/pp/ AE route for ONLINE, asfaik, what are there the cons.

So what are the pro/cons having a fcp workflow- cineform/pp workflow.

thank you very much