4K Frame Rates

[David Battistella]

I know that the sensor limits the 4K recordings to 60fps. I am wondering if there are any other speeds available in 4K besides 23.98/24fps.

Will 1-48fps be enabled in any upcoming builds?

David

[Häakon]

In addition to the sensor limitation of 60p, there's also a limitation of how fast those large 4K frames can be written to the card/drive. At this point, we have been told that we can probably expect a maximum framerate of 30p from the 4K onboard; right now it is limited to 24p. To get beyond that in 4K, you would need to record uncompressed out the RAW port (which is expensive and requires a very large array of data management. File sizes in the uncompressed 4K are huge). This is why they have developed the 2K mode for dealing with faster framerate options; you can get up to 60 onboard with a scaled solution and up to 100 or more with a windowed one.

[I Bloom]

In addition to the sensor limitation of 60p, there's also a limitation of how fast those large 4K frames can be written to the card/drive.

I know that's a limitation to CF, but I think eSata/Red Drive solutions will be able to handle 60p Redcode. It's the compression processing that is the real bottleneck.

IBloom

[Häakon]

Hi IBloom,

Currently, the CF limitation is 24p (and some have even speculated that this is only at the reduced 2:1 shooting ratio - which would explain why the full 16:9 size of the chip has not been offered yet). Jim has stated that they're working on up to 30p for the CF card, but it's not a feature currently.

The format chart on red.com clearly shows that up to 60p in 4K is only available through the RAW port, and it has been stated numerous times that we shouldn't expect much more than 30p in REDCODE/onboard (this means to eSata or RED-DRIVE as well) in 4K. That's the entire reason for the 2K scaled format; if we could get 60p onboard in 4K, no one would shoot anything else. :-)

Cheers,

Häakon

[Dominic Jones]

Hi Haakon,

I don't think ibloom is suggesting that the 30p limit is incorrect, merely that the bottleneck is the compression engine rather than drive write speeds.

That's my understanding as well, fwiw...

[Häakon]

Ah, gotcha. I just didn't want people to infer that because the RED-DRIVE "could" handle 60p that they're going to get it. :)

[I Bloom]

Ah, gotcha. I just didn't want people to infer that because the RED-DRIVE "could" handle 60p that they're going to get it. :)

I think a future upgrade to the compression FPGA's might allow higher framerates to the REDdrive without an upgrade to the drives or eSata. I'm not sure about CF but that will probably just require faster cards.

Ian

[Tom Lowe]

I must have missed the part where 4K onboard was going to be capped at 30fps. I was under the impression that with an upgraded chip and/or firmware upgrades and possible advancements in "onboard" storage write-speeds, that 60fps would be the theoretical cap.

The long and short of it is that many people are going to want 60fps at 4K onboard, otherwise many projects will have to be finished at 2K if they require overcranking.

If RED doesn't have this, it opens up the camera up to competition.

[Anders Holck]

I believe the Redcode limitations been stated many times as 30 fps max in 4k, and possibly 96-100 fps in 2k. And the limitations is the processing power.

Regarding the CF its 25 fps in 4k and 75 fps in 2k, I think they need to test and tweek to announce anything final here, but hopefully they reach full 30 and 1xx fps framerates to CF "down the road".

For everything else you need to look at the uncompressed options.

But remember that their main competitors, the F23 and the Genesis only does respectively 60 and 50 fps at whimsy 4:2:2 1080p, where scaled or cropped 2k would compete pretty good. The real downside to 2k cropped I think is the "per pixel sharpness" due to the OLPF, where scaled will perform better, when intercut with 4k material.

[I Bloom]

I must have missed the part where 4K onboard was going to be capped at 30fps. I was under the impression that with an upgraded chip and/or firmware upgrades and possible advancements in "onboard" storage write-speeds, that 60fps would be the theoretical cap.

The long and short of it is that many people are going to want 60fps at 4K onboard, otherwise many projects will have to be finished at 2K if they require overcranking.

If RED doesn't have this, it opens up the camera up to competition.

Tom you've inspired me to write another wiki article ;)

The framerate limitations for compressed footage are as follows:

4K:
Reading RAW data off sensor: 60fps
Wavelet Compression: 24fps (projected 30fps).
Transfer of compressed footage to REDdrive: ? 60fps possibly greater.
Transfer of compressed footage to CF: ? 30fps.

2K:
Reading RAW data off sensor:120fps
Wavelet Compression:72fps (projected 100fps).
Transfer of compressed footage to REDdrive: ? 120fps possibly greater.
Transfer of compressed footage to CF: ?

Not totally sure about the CF rate but I think it varies based on the card.
So whatever the lowest number in your chain thats the cap. Since 2K Scaled is reading RAW data from 4K the cap for that will be 60fps.

Tom, regarding the competition, the 4K competitors like Dalsa aren't doing the same degree of compression using wavelets. Via the RAW port RED can overcrank in 4K to 60fps. I don't think anyone else has crossed that barrier.

(BTW, I still can't get over your timelapse reel! You rock man.)

Ian

[David Battistella]

So.

What is the limitation to under cranking. It would be nice to shoot 1, 4, 12, 18 or 22 fps in 4K. Would this be hard to accomplish?

[tj williams]

I thought we would have every frame rate between somthing less than 1fps and 24 fps?

What about ramping speeds?

[David Battistella]

I thought we would have every frame rate between somthing less than 1fps and 24 fps?

What about ramping speeds?

TJ,

I wish we could all ramp like scorcese, but I think that is going to be a mechanical, film camera reservation for a while.

David

[Häakon]

So.

What is the limitation to under cranking. It would be nice to shoot 1, 4, 12, 18 or 22 fps in 4K. Would this be hard to accomplish?
The camera will undercrank down to 1fps in single-frame increments. That feature just hasn't been enabled yet (along with a slew of others - they're working hard!) :-)

[David Battistella]

they're working hard!) :-)

Yeah,

I know, it's the kind of group I'd love to be a part of, but I think they are full, like LART.

:)

David