Is RED will release Codec info for other Grading System ?

[fsavoir]

Hi,

I'm wondering if RED will be able to release technical information to let Other Grading System like Assimilate.Scratch to use RED RAW format.

I would like to see people like Iridas to implement RED RAW as they do on Arri RAW.

Competition is good for customer.

So is it possible to RED to help color grading software to support natively their wonderfull product?

A almost happy customer.

Fred

[Häakon]

Hi,

Currently Assimilate Scratch is the only program (outside of RedAlert!/Redcine) that can read raw .r3d files. You won't have any compatibility problems with Scratch at all.

[Salem Kapic]

Great, but what about codec for other systems like Adobe Premiere pro? (RAW support)

[fsavoir]

I don't understand why I should buy another grading system to handle RED :)

And may be other grading could do better :) and I don't want to spend another 20 000 USD to other grading system don't you?

So could somebody from RED could answer if they will release technical information or not to other company !

I would like to see some leading industry standard to deal with RED.

Cheers,

Fred

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi,

Implementing REDcode RAW in colour grading systems seems to me one big advantage of the RED workflow. It will make REDcode Raw usuable for everyone, from Color to the HighEnd systems. It could become a standard like 35mm...

Hans

[jacknusa]

I'd be very surprised if things arn't in the works for Color to support Red Raw, especially since FCP will support Red Raw in a big way.

Can only be a question of time... NAB 08 ? Sooner?

Jack

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I *think* RED said that they would make their codec available for ANY 3rd parties who showed interest.
So if the people from your color grading software show interest, I think there should be no problem and it will be worked out...

[Salem Kapic]

I *think* RED said that they would make their codec available for ANY 3rd parties who showed interest.
So if the people from your color grading software show interest, I think there should be no problem and it will be worked out...

Yes, but only via QuickTime codec! We talk about native raw .r3d files!

[Axel Mertes]

We also want to see support of RED CODE in Iridas SpeedGradeDI, FrameCycler etc. products.

There is simply *NO* reason to drop on an existing valueable and ever improving investment, because that would be in contra to the approach of an affordable camera system. There are many thinkable workflows out there, and RED should be very interested to make them all to the utmost efficient.

The sooner RED cooperates with as many tools in the post production pipelines, the better. Its clear there is some preference right now towards Apple and Assimilate, but there the problem begins already: Assimilite isn't an Apple based product, so you already need to mix platforms, do double investments, all this stuff that is contra "cost efficient". Further they are competitors some way, as Color is made for Grading right out of the box (well, many will aggree that Color is far from Scratch, SpeedGradeDI, Filmmaster, Filmlight, Lustre, Pablo etc.).

I think the point is the transcoding times. Poeple not necessarily want to transcode and move data around to much, because that is the biggest problem in most pipelines, especially if you need to go back in the pipeline for some reasons. Native file support is important.

A working Quicktime wrapper codec is already a good step, opening many doors. The question remains what can be improved with NATIVE RED CODEC support at all compared to Quicktime approach?

Regards,
Axel

[Axel Mertes]

I need to add a few words:

I just had a conversation with my dear friend Patrick from Iridas and he told me that he would like to implement immediately native RED CODE for SpeedGradeDI etc. as soon as RED is willing to and sending him whatever is required to get hands on RED CODE.

So I assume if a NDA is required, that is not a problem at all. Thats just common.

Bottom line: Its up to RED now to take action! Iridas is already waiting for them! RED is running open doors there. Nobody else in the world has implemented RAW movie camera support faster and more widely than Iridas (after I've given them the idea to do deBayer etc. with the GPU...).

Thanks,
Axel

[Dan Blanchett]

Hopefully this will happen. More options is a good thing.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I need to add a few words:

I just had a conversation with my dear friend Patrick from Iridas and he told me that he would like to implement immediately native RED CODE for SpeedGradeDI etc. as soon as RED is willing to and sending him whatever is required to get hands on RED CODE.

So I assume if a NDA is required, that is not a problem at all. Thats just common.

Bottom line: Its up to RED now to take action! Iridas is already waiting for them! RED is running open doors there.

Thanks,
Axel

Wait and see.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Until then, just ouput 10bit log DPX file sequence and that should work as well as REDCode RAW
Jay

[Harva Raj]

i think red should have a section in their official website and any company (SpeedGradeDI, Filmmaster, Filmlight, Lustre,Pablo ) that wants RED CODE support would first request a special username/password from RED,let RED contact the company via phone and authenticate the company and send them username/password. the company (engineers) then login and get whatever info/code that required for a RED CODE support. As jim pointed that RED will be the camera that will never complete,it will be easier for that collaborating company to just login to their RED account and update any changes/updates in RED CODE from time to time.

P/s : is having RED CODE support as easy as this? i mean, is it just about the lines of codes or is it something that requires hardware/physical support from RED. anyway just my 2 cents,

[Sven Seynaeve]

I'd love to see the opportunity being able to grade with speedgrade. This would reduce costs with equivalent system as scratch which are 5x times the price.
I don't need dpx support and uncompressed if we're going with red. This is still a reason i'm looking for si2k in the meantime having the nice integration with speedgrade at the moment. I'm willing to purchase a red anyway

However , the guys from scratch assured me working on a configuration for red owners in the near future. Also being able to run scratch on bootcamp reduces the need for two different platforms.

[aventuri]

hi, first post here

i think that the specs of the r3d files should be available openly and freely so anyone can develop all the filters he wants
i believe, for example, that the open source community could boost the creation of many useful tools to process this proprietary files as i forecast we are going to see so many RED cameras in the hands of people who can't afford expensive postprocessing stuff..

bye

[G. Haz]

Hi,

Currently Assimilate Scratch is the only program (outside of RedAlert!/Redcine) that can read raw .r3d files. You won't have any compatibility problems with Scratch at all.
In another reduser forum it said that Red is not licensing redcode raw to other vendors at this time. Is this accurate?

[Lucas Wilson]

I'd love to see the opportunity being able to grade with speedgrade. This would reduce costs with equivalent system as scratch which are 5x times the price.

That is incorrect. Have you actually priced SpeedgradeDI vs. SCRATCH? SpeedgradeHD is not an option as it is limited to HD resolution. And on the Iridas site, SpeedgradeDI is listed at US$40,000 software only.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Edgar Pitts]

Why is it that when Adobe or other vendors are mentioned no one from the Red team responds???

[till]

is assimilate thinking of a scratch light...less features maybe ...or special price for redowners...or somethink like that

[Axel Mertes]

hi, first post here

i think that the specs of the r3d files should be available openly and freely so anyone can develop all the filters he wants
i believe, for example, that the open source community could boost the creation of many useful tools to process this proprietary files as i forecast we are going to see so many RED cameras in the hands of people who can't afford expensive postprocessing stuff..

bye

I do think that'll become an important issue really SOON. The reason is that many film companies & broadcasters take actions to use only file formats that can be read in the future, which implies - the ever changing world in mind - that the source code is available. Official archives - at least here in europe - are hold to use only codecs for archiving which source codes are available for them.

I am not saying that RED CODE is going to be an archive format, but could well be at some point, given some native editing approach. Look at Cineform which just got choosen as playout format for a whole bunch of cinemas in India. You never know where its finally heading.

So someone at RED must consider handing out the codec sooner than later. RED CINE - a scratch light by itself - is a needle ear in large pipelines. How fast does it the transactions of acquired data?
Can I send it to my render farm, bulk processing hundrets of thousand of frames as I am used too?

An open codec is the solution. Maybe the quicktime codec is already a good solution by itself (when it gets available to all of us). The point is what is the speed difference between accessing a RED CODE file NATIVE vs. a Quicktime wrapper?
What do I gain by getting native code reader, what may I loose?
A quicktime codec is at least fast to use (not talking about the Apple home made ever lasting Quicktime headaches the dev's have since 7.x in about all apps that I know...).

What I am after is to integrate RED into our existing pipeline, which originally started with either tape or scan acquisited data, either us capturing tapes or importing scanned files. Pretty much as what we get from a RED in theory, but practise?

- A tape can be imported in realtime. It can be imported in realtime to .dpx files if required (see DVS cards for example).

- A scanned data can be imported about realtime, given the transport media. Sometimes its "just there", because you don't need to import, you just connect the drive and use the data on it.

- A REC CODE file may be use directly by native file support software OR decoded using a Quicktime wrapper OR it needs to be processed by RED CINE to transcode to .dpx files (or whatever you like). That latter being an currently not completely clear step in terms of how time consuming or not it may be after all.

But the bottom line is, the more apps can directly read / write RED CODE files, the better - for all of us. And at some point this may imply releasing the sources to the masses. Take a look at the photography market. There is lots of actions to get free RAW formats, and most professional photographers just don't believe in any Nikon / Canon / etc. stuff and convert EVERYTHING to RGB first and store images they can read everywhere, without special software.

Regards,
Axel

[laguun]

add us to the speedgrade R3D asap list.

I still not decided, if we gonna add Mystika, Chrome, Scratch or Speedgrade, but workflow, price, crossplatform! (osx and win) and their huge experience and compatibility with RAW (they already implemented Arri D20, VR Phantom 65, SI 2K, Weisscam..) make them highly interesting.

The speedgrade on set for $$$ is a -perfect- expansion to the red workflow. DP / 1st AC / DIT can send the intended look to the studio, studio can check for details and quality issues and send back propositions of refined looks to the set. Next generation dailies.

I also spoke with Iridas employees and their CEO at the IBC and they also told us that they want to integrate REDcode at once.
Is there an ETA for the 3hrd party support to start?

p.s. some folks at the mystika booth mentioned that red wouldn´t give out the necessary tools - but i suppose thats a rumour, and they simlply misinterpret the fact, that redcine is beta and stuff like overcranked work is in beta.

[laguun]

That is incorrect. Have you actually priced SpeedgradeDI vs. SCRATCH? SpeedgradeHD is not an option as it is limited to HD resolution. And on the Iridas site, SpeedgradeDI is listed at US$40,000 software only.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

sorry, that is wrong.
Speedgrade HD can do 4k. Its display is limited to HD, but you can conform 4K, HD being the proxy.
Speedgrade HD is at 9.999 here.

[laguun]

In another reduser forum it said that Red is not licensing redcode raw to other vendors at this time. Is this accurate?

That would be -the- huge mistake.
But i doubt it, red always made clear that they want to have an open workflow, not restricting their users.

[Simon Blackledge]

Thats the QT "codec" thats available.. not the sourcecode for .r3d I believe.

s

[Alex Boothby]

That is incorrect. Have you actually priced SpeedgradeDI vs. SCRATCH? SpeedgradeHD is not an option as it is limited to HD resolution. And on the Iridas site, SpeedgradeDI is listed at US$40,000 software only.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Hi Lucas. Now that SCRATCH reads Redcode, can you tell us what it writes to? DPX or tiff is assumed but it would be nice to keep data rates down for certain tasks like dailies.

Some time ago there was discussion about a RED intermediate or finishing codec for post applications. It would be nice to write to a format that maintained all of the native Redcode metadata.

I'm very interested in hearing about emerging workflows for dailes as well as final online / select scene transfer. I assume that many post-pipelines will consider using Redcine for dailies work so that the Redcode codec is not broken. This will be a tough sell in some markets who are used to power windows and secondaries for their rushes.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I just have got the information from one high-ranking Apple's software developer engineer that COLOR will soon become a very powerful grading app that even competition on PC side should be afraid. We have to wait for Leopard launch this year and then for the upgrade that will come till NAB 2008.

[laguun]

I just have got the information from one high-ranking Apple's software developer engineer that COLOR will soon become a very powerful grading app that even competition on PC side should be afraid. We have to wait for Leopard launch this year and then for the upgrade that will come till NAB 2008.

If apple is doing their homework, color will be everywhere soon, simply due to its price.
But already now, there are powerful alternatives to color, also on osx, as speedgrade, which many user mentioned here.

[Patrick Tresch]

That would be -the- huge mistake.
But i doubt it, red always made clear that they want to have an open workflow, not restricting their users.

REDCODE IS VERY RESTRICTED...
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR REDFOLKS???

Please!:angry2:

See bellow!


De: Matthew Allard <matthew_all...@avid.com>
Data: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:11:03 -0400
Local: Qua 29 ago 2007 14:11
Assunto: Re: RED - 4k

We are working with the folks at Red and Assimilate (the makers of the Red
Cine application) to support workflows between Avid and the Red camera.

Red is not currently licensing its REDCODE RAW format to any other vendors
though we have made that request to them so we can build better integration
between Red and our products.


Regards,


Matt
--
Matthew Allard
Director of Product Management
Avid Technology, Inc.
Avid Technology Park
1925 Andover Street
Tewksbury, MA 01876
Matthew_All...@avid.com
tel: 978-640-3416
fax: 978-851-7952
mobile: 603-502-0616

[Axel Mertes]

Then its apparently not just rumors.

To state it clear:

Not licensing REDCODE to a third party other than Apple or Assimilate will definetly NOT force us to buy Apple or Assimilate companies products in favor of those we are used too / want to, it'll definetly be the other way around...

:angry03:

Axel

[Sanjin Jukic]

If apple is doing their homework, color will be everywhere soon, simply due to its price.
But already now, there are powerful alternatives to color, also on osx, as speedgrade, which many user mentioned here.

For all other grading app alternatives on Mac OSX or PC via BootCamp you pay a LOT. The next COLOR/FCS update is probably free or could be one symbolic price comparable with the other grading apps.

[laguun]

Then its apparently not just rumors.

To state it clear:

Not licensing REDCODE to a third party other than Apple or Assimilate will definetly NOT force us to buy Apple or Assimilate companies products in favor of those we are used too / want to, it'll definetly be the other way around...

:angry03:

Axel

Lets not jump to conclusions to fast - it might be simply because redcode is still in its infancy and development.
However i think someone from red should comment if red intends to restrict the use of its fileformat.

p.s. If so, that would be, sorry to be honest, the first really unintelligent move of red.

[Edgar Pitts]

Anyone from the Red team care to reply?????

[G. Haz]

However i think someone from red should comment if red intends to restrict the use of its fileformat.
***Cue crickets chirping.***

[Tom Lowe]

Calm down, ya'll.

Yelling and screaming with red-faced smilie guys isn't go to make them answer any faster. Try this one, it usually works better around here = :)

I'm sure these questions will be answered or at least addressed soon.

[Lucas Wilson]

Hi Lucas. Now that SCRATCH reads Redcode, can you tell us what it writes to? DPX or tiff is assumed but it would be nice to keep data rates down for certain tasks like dailies.

Some time ago there was discussion about a RED intermediate or finishing codec for post applications. It would be nice to write to a format that maintained all of the native Redcode metadata.

I'm very interested in hearing about emerging workflows for dailes as well as final online / select scene transfer. I assume that many post-pipelines will consider using Redcine for dailies work so that the Redcode codec is not broken. This will be a tough sell in some markets who are used to power windows and secondaries for their rushes.

Hi Boothba,

SCRATCH writes to: TIFF, TGA, DPX, CIN, EXR, JPEG, SGI, JPEG2000, and Quicktime. When SCRATCH writes to DPX, all appropriate timecode and tapeID information is written into the header from R3D metadata.

For Dailies, REDCINE is a great tool for scene selection and rendering output. SCRATCH can do realtime video output from REDCODE to NTSC, PAL, 720, or 1080 with secondaries, windows, etc. But - don't you think that power windows are overkill for most dailies situations?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Lucas Wilson]

sorry, that is wrong.
Speedgrade HD can do 4k. Its display is limited to HD, but you can conform 4K, HD being the proxy. Speedgrade HD is at 9.999 here.

Can SpeedgradeHD output to 2K and 4K? Also, can it output in HD in realtime from a realtime resize from 2K or 4K with an adjustable extraction?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[SalaTar]

dont want Scratch,,,,
Would prefer 4k CF and http://www.speedgrade.com/

[Edgar Pitts]

How can we compare Scratch to Speedgrade if you will not list your prices? I understand your product is modular, but why can't you list the prices for the modules??? It is not rocket science.

[Alex Boothby]

Hi Boothba,

SCRATCH writes to: TIFF, TGA, DPX, CIN, EXR, JPEG, SGI, JPEG2000, and Quicktime. When SCRATCH writes to DPX, all appropriate timecode and tapeID information is written into the header from R3D metadata.

For Dailies, REDCINE is a great tool for scene selection and rendering output. SCRATCH can do realtime video output from REDCODE to NTSC, PAL, 720, or 1080 with secondaries, windows, etc. But - don't you think that power windows are overkill for most dailies situations?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks Lucas for your answers. Very helpful. Yes I DO think that power windows are overkill for most dailies work, but I'm afraid that in the commercial world dailies are regarded as the main opportunity for the DOP to set his look before the agency and client mucks it up later. As such, in Toronto the very concept of one-lights have all but disappeared, replaced by best-lights (at worst) and often supervised transfers using Spirit, Davici 2K etc. I'm trying to rationalize how this luxury can be applied to a Red workflow and I keep coming to the same conclusion - it's not necessary.

I'm imagining that Red dailies will evolve as a complement of tiered services - bottom end will be a simple REDCINE data transfer utilizing the DOP's LUTs from set (let's call this the P2 workflow)). Middle tier will include a more refined grade in REDCINE, messaging and tweaking the on-set LUT's with a greater eye towards color continuity and consistency. Top tier will be a full-up grade in a professional ap like SCRATCH - but again at the cost of 'breaking the codec'. I imagine that many workflows will emerge and some productions (episodic for example) may be quick to trans-code to Pro-res or some other finishing codec (or god-forbid, tape!) at the dailies stage.

BTW - I'm pushing to get a SCRATCH in our facility in Toronto. Fingers crossed.

[laguun]

Can SpeedgradeHD output to 2K and 4K?

Yes. Monitoring & proxy is limited to 1080p. Final output is flexible.
The Speedgrade on set for 400$ does also do 4k monitoring.

They offer free trial versions for OSX >10.4 and win >2000 to check it out.



Also, can it output in HD in realtime from a realtime resize from 2K or 4K with an adjustable extraction?

Speedgrade DI yes, Speedgrade HD realtime is 1080p, so you have to prerender your resize.
3D support is an additional option for both.

The Speedgrade HD uses 1080p for all realtime and then renders for 4k.
Very similar to RED debayer in Scratch which is 2K/1K realtime and renders in 4K. Where scratch computes the debayer from the R3D file, speedgrade uses a QT/AVI proxy.

As they havent got the R3D implementation yet, you generate the proxy, either uncompressed or with cineform.
Or with redquick, but i don´t know how fast and stable that is.
I will test redquick beginning early next week under speedgrade OSX.

[laguun]

How can we compare Scratch to Speedgrade if you will not list your prices? I understand your product is modular, but why can't you list the prices for the modules??? It is not rocket science.

We have been offered prices from 30.000 to 55.000 for the full scratch package. Some customers from Scandinavia told me they got it for even (much) less. I think that for a 2007 customer relationship having list prices is a basic business requirement.

[Lucas Wilson]

Yes. Monitoring & proxy is limited to 1080p. Final output is flexible. The Speedgrade on set for 400$ does also do 4k monitoring. They offer free trial versions for OSX >10.4 and win >2000 to check it out.

Ok - cool. Good info.Monitoring on SCRATCH is not limited to 1080p. We also offer free trial versions to check it out.


Speedgrade DI yes, Speedgrade HD realtime is 1080p, so you have to prerender your resize. 3D support is an additional option for both.

The Speedgrade HD uses 1080p for all realtime and then renders for 4k.
Very similar to RED debayer in Scratch which is 2K/1K realtime and renders in 4K. Where scratch computes the debayer from the R3D file, speedgrade uses a QT/AVI proxy.

1) There is no rendering involved in the SCRATCH pipeline when switching from 1K/2K/4K in REDCODE.

2) Ignoring REDCODE, 2K DPX, 16-bit TIFF, EXR, etc. are realtime in SCRATCH without any proxy generation. Unless you can tell me that Speedgrade computes a 1080p proxy in realtime from all those file formats.

3) 3D is standard in SCRATCH, as the color architecture is 3D from the ground up.

4) There is no prerendering necessary for any resize - it is all realtime. An NTSC/PAL Quicktime, 2K DPX files, and 4K REDCODE files can all be resized in realtime to 1080p, 720p, 2048p, NTSC, PAL, etc. in realtime for output.

So no, it's really not very similar at all. While SpeedgradeDI may be comparable, SpeedgradeHD simply is not. And the pricing does honestly reflect that.


As they havent got the R3D implementation yet, you generate the proxy, either uncompressed or with cineform. Or with redquick, but i don´t know how fast and stable that is.I will test redquick beginning early next week under speedgrade OSX.

Let us know how stable the proxy generation is once you try it next week.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[laguun]

Very helpful. Yes I DO think that power windows are overkill for most dailies work, but I'm afraid that in the commercial world dailies are regarded as the main opportunity for the DOP to set his look before the agency and client mucks it up later. As such, in Toronto the very concept of one-lights have all but disappeared, replaced by best-lights (at worst) and often supervised transfers using Spirit, Davici 2K etc.

Ho Boothba,

we are seeing more and more the trend to have the basic or layout CC done on set by DP & director. Be it color or speedgrade on set, or even "only" the remotes. Then they send quick layouts to the studio. I don´t kknow if the benefit of this is so much in shortform, but in longform / fullfeature its a huge timesaver.

[Lucas Wilson]

How can we compare Scratch to Speedgrade if you will not list your prices? I understand your product is modular, but why can't you list the prices for the modules??? It is not rocket science.

No, it's not rocket science. My e-mail is lucas at assimilateinc dot com. Feel free to email me offlist.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[till]

please, wanna have an answer for my stupid question. will there be somekind of scratch light with native redcode support? ( I mean cheaper, something around
5k or 3k or 1k :shifty:

[laguun]

please, wanna have an answer for my stupid question. will there be somekind of scratch light with native redcode support? ( I mean cheaper, something around
5k or 3k or 1k :shifty:

yeah, i recommended that a time ago as well. A competing offer to speedgrade HD is still missing in assimilates portfolio. Limited to redcode only and 1080p display, for $$$$ that product would certainly find a market. Once a 4k & bugfree Apple color is in the market, the DI market won´t be the same anymore anyhow.

However, with 1 Terrabyte harddisk prices as low as 200-250 euro meanwhile, 4k longform uncompressed DI is getting interesting.

[aventuri]

with regard to r3d support, it's just a matter of have an exahustive doc about the file format (the bitstream sintax).
It's NOT about the source code itself.
By the way, reverse engineer some r3d files should not be such a complex task, provided there are sample files (few frames each) of simple patterns like black screen and white screen and some color schemes.
Isn't this r3d format all about simply stuffing ASAP the bayesian stream from the sensor to persistent storage?
So simple lossless compression schemes and only "keyframes" with as less postprocessing as possible..
Right?
Let's see if simple pristine r3d shots (maybe with their quicktime proxies to ease the analisys) will flourish on the web to let people have a quick glance to the compression scheme..
Actually i can't find nothing with google

It's a fair approach IMHO!

Bye
Andrea Venturi

[Dexter Gregoire]

We should understand that all companies have their own business practices. Some may want to list prices and some may want you to contact them privately. I understand. There are alot of arrangements that are made behind closed doors, or on the golf course, or in bars(taverns).

If I was creating a product that needed to be compatible with software, I would approach software companies and make them an offer they shouldn't refuse. If they scoffed me like I was joking, I would wait until tables have turned and make them pay every cent it's worth!------With that being said-----

I try to understand Jim's business practices. I've noticed with early reservation holders he gave a bonus back to them to purchase accessories.

I like his business practices. Everything will work itself out in time, I Promise.

[laguun]

We should understand that all companies have their own business practices. Some may want to list prices and some may want you to contact them privately. I understand. There are alot of arrangements that are made behind closed doors, or on the golf course, or in bars(taverns).
Fully agreed.

My position however is, that for desktop computer software it is a basic requirement if you want to have a good part of the market or be marketleader (->fcp/ppro/avid, ->ae/fusion/combustion, ->maya/may/si:xsi), or if you want to have a niche product. for the first model, list prices are a must-have, for the later its doable to max deals per customer. And DI is, especially since Apple color, becoming desktop class software.




I try to understand Jim's business practices. I've noticed with early reservation holders he gave a bonus back to them to purchase accessories.

I like his business practices. Everything will work itself out in time, I Promise.
Red has done an outstanding job and created a great product. Back to topic: Asking how redcode will be integrated into the real-world postproduction pipelines is now necessary.

If red only will support Apple FCP and scratch, then there will be no 4k redcode DI system on OSX and many of my clients will have to get uncompressed dpx sequences if they want to shoot red.

By the way, one company would -love- the decision to make native redcode incompatible with discreet, avid, adobe etc outside of the QT wrapper - cineform.

we are getting more and more requests from customers how they can shoot red and integrate it into their pipelines. As of now, uncompressed and/or cineform is the only answer i can give them. And i can´t recommend buying different tools to a house with >10 avids and existing DI systems.
I think someone from red should comment.

[roryhinds]

its the wait game, we'll need to hear what RED have planned or find out when it happens.

If you want to finish 4k today you don't have many options, companies are still in a "if you are finishing 4k you must have money" attitude on their pricing.

The markets is wide open for a desktop DI GPU based system at a reasonable price. I think everyone hopes Color can fill the gap although Apple seem more concerned in selling iPhones and pro's are being left at the side.

Digital acquisition at film resolution is still very new and it will take awhile for the companies to catch up to the idea that prices need to come down and they can earn more with selling more seats.

Someone will do it - the demand is there - the hardware is there

[Jeremy Torrie]

I am surprised at how quiet our friends at Red have been. Six pages in and no comments. Perhaps we've motivated some high level discussion, and they're simply waiting to provide a definitive position statement and/or answer.

[Simon Blackledge]

Fully agreed.



By the way, one company would -love- the decision to make native redcode incompatible with discreet, avid, adobe etc outside of the QT wrapper - cineform.

.

So if your fully OSX based.. what do you get from cineform ? their website still confuses the hell outta me :-/

So .r3d export via redcine > cineform XYZ??

S

[laguun]

So if your fully OSX based.. what do you get from cineform ? their website still confuses the hell outta me :-/

So .r3d export via redcine > cineform XYZ??

S
Yeah, the website is indeed a little bit -too- techie :)

You get
a) 4k/2k realtime editing without special hardware with a 4:4:4 codec. 4k will require top-performance computers however.
b) teamed with speedgrade an 4k DI on OSX.
c) a crossplatform 2k/4k codec (dvcpro HD and prores aren´t crossplatform)

[Dan Blanchett]

Just pure speculation (which is what we're best at here on REDUSER), but my hunch is that RED made a deal with Apple and Assimilate that was along the lines of them agreeing to take a chance on integrating and promoting Red (this is before NAB) and in return Red gives them a temporary exclusive lead in the market.

OR it could be as simple as Red wanting to limit the number of players while they work on perfecting their product. I have a feeling they will open it up down the road. It's in their long-term best interest.

[laguun]

I am surprised at how quiet our friends at Red have been. Six pages in and no comments. Perhaps we've motivated some high level discussion, and they're simply waiting to provide a definitive position statement and/or answer.

Yes, i am a bit surprised as well. But they always stated that they want to support any 3hrd party interested, and i hope that all these exclusivity rumors are just rumors.

Especially as it would make no sense: one would -need- two operation systems and a mac and a pc to use the workflow then -and- would have no R3D 4k DI option on OSX.

[laguun]

If you want to finish 4k today you don't have many options, companies are still in a "if you are finishing 4k you must have money" attitude on their pricing.

The markets is wide open for a desktop DI GPU based system at a reasonable price. I think everyone hopes Color can fill the gap although Apple seem more concerned in selling iPhones and pro's are being left at the side.

Someone will do it - the demand is there - the hardware is there

There are cineform and iridas framecycler & speedgrade, both 4k capable in the €€€€ price range, both on OSX and on windows. And Adobe is a 4k as well, with cineform it seems even in 4k realtime, given a decent disksetup with 3,4 sata-drives and a quadcore.

[Simon Blackledge]

Yeah, the website is indeed a little bit -too- techie :)

You get
a) 4k/2k realtime editing without special hardware with a 4:4:4 codec. 4k will require top-performance computers however.
b) teamed with speedgrade an 4k DI on OSX.
c) a crossplatform 2k/4k codec (dvcpro HD and prores aren´t crossplatform)

Ok.. still confused on which "product" you purchase.. seems you cant just buy the codec ? :-/


cheers

s

[laguun]

Just pure speculation (which is what we're best at here on REDUSER), but my hunch is that RED made a deal with Apple and Assimilate that was along the lines of them agreeing to take a chance on integrating and promoting Red (this is before NAB) and in return Red gives them a temporary exclusive lead in the market.

If so, why did red always tell that they will support 3hrd parties? Also, t would make no sense to intentionally reject manyears and manyears of R&D of software companies which they would invest on their own right now. But if they decided to do so, its necessary for the customers to know how long they plan to prevent R3D native use on avid, adobe, discreet, quantel etc.



OR it could be as simple as Red wanting to limit the number of players while they work on perfecting their product. I have a feeling they will open it up down the road. It's in their long-term best interest.
I think really someone from red should comment - this uncertainty is leading to wild speculations.

[laguun]

Ok.. still confused on which "product" you purchase.. seems you cant just buy the codec ? :-/
cheers

s
david newman is the one to ask - their product portfolio is indeed confusing.
the playback codec is free.
then the differences are (if i got correct :)) - resolution, hd-sdi/2k video i/o and finally the GPU-based realtime acceleration for several edting/fx functions.

[Simon Blackledge]

All this is software though yes? :-/

my head hurts! lol

I think my confusion is.. it seems I have to buy a load of windows stuff to get the osx codec.. but the osx codec is all I require as were a OSX only studio.

s

[Rocco Schult]

RAW codecs are not impossible to invent and knowledge is out there, hence we find RAW data incl. wavelet compression (see Cineform and REDRAW compressed).
Nevertheless this software still incorporates much development time and effort, yet companies are living from it.
RED couldn't have made this camera without REDcode. Without the possibility to push all the data into a stream capable of being recorder by off-the-shelf computer hardware.
Besides the sensor, thats the big trick we and RED happen to profit from.
Cineform as a company is completely based on their own codec. A whole company living from offering users the possiblitiy to work and finish in data amounts not busting every independent guys budgets.

What you think happens if this knowledge is free'd for nothing ?
Open source, hugh ?
Its intellectual property and profit is anticipated along with it.
People worked for it and need to be paid.
Expect a RED clone from greater RED country as soon as somebody disassembled a RED ONE and the code is free.
And who will do support for the code if its open-source ? Sourcefourge community ?

RED might license their codec if they're clever. But as the codec is a potential profit source its a deal to be determined who profits more from its implementation. The deal will be according to that. I don't see open source here.

The archiving of film won't stop people from shooting in weird formats either. (official film archives and such... )
This is surely a topic for the future and maybe new companies will make their living out of it, like conversion services to "FINAL-ARCHIVE-FORMAT" which should be indeed open-source as well as open-RAW.

RED material will be worked with anyway, its the next implementors advantage if he can support the codec natively.
The very first one is Assimilate - they built the app. Thats fair enough business, isn't it ?

The codec will be a profit source regarding all the soon-2-be-released cameras out there, and I wouldn't expect it to be free.
Why do you think AVID (the biggest sleeper in the market) is open to implement REDs code ? Heck, yeah, of course we take it, sure, we're open! We need customers working with our outdated architecture!
I love Avid and still prefer it over FCP, but if they profit from integrating REDs codec, more than RED does.

FCS is announced to be able to work with the native files, and RED profits big time as well as Apple does.

As for render-outs: I still wait for official statement if Cineform and RED will work together. (REDs statement)
That would be a win-win in my eyes. Cross-platform, built for writing quickly into it, compact and on a good way becoming kind-of-standard.
And a supported situation too, Cineform is even posting here (cheers to David).

[G. Haz]

…my hunch is that RED made a deal with Apple and Assimilate that was along the lines of them agreeing to take a chance on integrating and promoting Red (this is before NAB) and in return Red gives them a temporary exclusive lead in the market.
good hunch. If such a deal was made the contract probably stated in no uncertain terms that neither party would publicly discuss the terms of the deal. Hence, the silence from the Read Team. Posting a comment on this thread would violate the terms of the agreement. Speculation is fun!

[Patrick Tresch]

RED material will be worked with anyway, its the next implementors advantage if he can support the codec natively.
The very first one is Assimilate - they built the app. Thats fair enough business, isn't it ?


Why do you think AVID (the biggest sleeper in the market) is open to implement REDs code ? Heck, yeah, of course we take it, sure, we're open! We need customers working with our outdated architecture!
I love Avid and still prefer it over FCP, but if they profit from integrating REDs codec, more than RED does.

FCS is announced to be able to work with the native files, and RED profits big time as well as Apple does.

Thanks Augenmensch for speaking to us!

All this seams very clear. But it happens that in your exlpanation there is a litle confusion between making money (by abusing the lack of choice of the customer) and creating a new path to digital cinematography. I thought that RED phylosophy was to kick the ass of the well established market leader by launching a new camera and breaking their outdated technology.

If you think RED/Assimilate/Apple are right in making good money by restricting the REDCODE access, I think that these company in 10 years time are promised to become other dinosaures like AVID. BTW Apple is far from a proactive company and I put it also closer to Microsoft than to RED. I personnaly would'nt be so worried about their business. YES RED has to make money, but they will loose everything by forgetting where they come from.

This restriction policy (if there is one) would be more SONY like.

Sorry for my bad english.

Pat:greedy:

[Patrick Tresch]

Red has done an outstanding job and created a great product. Back to topic: Asking how redcode will be integrated into the real-world postproduction pipelines is now necessary.

I fully agree. I hope you RED folks take the "reduser" (customer) point of view by providing post solutionS with the REDCODE RAW revolution!!!

How can you sell a RED shoot when very few REDpost solutions are available? Little producers will accept this few choice.

Thanks.:clown2:

[Lucas Wilson]

How can you sell a RED shoot when very few REDpost solutions are available? Little producers will accept this few choice.

Producers could care less whether a post tool will accept R3D files natively. If you start throwing around terms like "native R3D support" to most producers, they will just glaze over. :)

They care about getting the job done on time and under budget. If a post house has an iQ and they say, "we can do this for X price" and another post house with SCRATCH says, "we can do this for Y price," and X < Y, where do you think the job will go?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Patrick Tresch]

They care about getting the job done on time and under budget. If a post house has an iQ and they say, "we can do this for X price" and another post house with SCRATCH says, "we can do this for Y price," and X < Y, where do you think the job will go?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks Lucas for jumping in.

I'm here in Switzerland. Where can I find Scratch?

What if my producers says : I want to edit in AVID because the editor has 15 years of AVID in his wrist... And we have to edit raw because we don't want to loose time coding and transcoding from REDCINE (and then conform/grade/composit in AVID DS Nitris).

Where can I get my job done? Do I have to go to Paris or London just to do a grade?

Is there any google map of Scratch users/facilities?

Thanks!

Patrick


PS: I'm very interested in Scratch as I worked as a color grader.

[laguun]

Thanks Lucas for jumping in.
I'm here in Switzerland. Where can I find Scratch?

nowhere.
no support.
no strongholds.
nothing.



What if my producers says : I want to edit in AVID because the editor has 15 years of AVID in his wrist... And we have to edit raw because we don't want to loose time coding and transcoding from REDCINE (and then conform/grade/composit in AVID DS Nitris).
Where can I get my job done? Do I have to go to Paris or London just to do a grade?

you will to too have to settle with us.
we will basically starting to dump any newcomer out of the market.
i think, that 100-200€ are a maximum one could charge daily for a mystika/scratch/apple color/speedgrade/natrux chrine etc,




Is there any google map of Scratch users/facilities?

you don´t t need a google map.
in germany, there are 2, maybe even 3 customers on 80,000,000 folks.


any DI soltware which will not gain over 15% marketshare will go the way of the dodo.
5D cyborg might be a goood google .
enthusiastic youngsters as luki incl.

[laguun]

Producers could care less whether a post tool will accept R3D files natively. If you start throwing around terms like "native R3D support" to most producers, they will just glaze over. :)

They care about getting the job done on time and under budget. If a post house has an iQ and they say, "we can do this for X price" and another post house with SCRATCH says, "we can do this for Y price," and X < Y, where do you think the job will go?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
ok, kust our recent customers.
universal.
20th centuty.
miramax.
warner bros.

no one of them had a scracth.
so, do you think that this will be change in the foreseeable future?

[laguun]

No, it's not rocket science. My e-mail is lucas at assimilateinc dot com. Feel free to email me offlist.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
the prices i have got where from
30.000$
to
50.000$
to
"what is your budget"?


FCS including color is at ~1300$

[Lucas Wilson]

the prices i have got where from
30.000$
to
50.000$
to
"what is your budget"?

FCS including color is at ~1300$

I was curious about this, so I checked internally, and nobody from ASSIMILATE has sent you a formal quote. Please contact me offlist if you do want one.

Lucas

[Lucas Wilson]

ok, kust our recent customers.
universal.
20th centuty.
miramax.
warner bros.

no one of them had a scracth.
so, do you think that this will be change in the foreseeable future?

Again, you need to check your facts before you spew.

It's poor form to brag about customer lists, and customers also typically don't like it.

Suffice to say you're just wrong about 3 of the 4 you list above. Out of those 3, they own multiple SCRATCH systems in various pieces of the empire, including VFX Editorial and Conform, Executive Screening, and Episodic Conform.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc,
LA, CA, USA

[Axel Mertes]

Hi guys :)

I've just received some brand new news from my dear friends at Iridas I'd like to share with all of you:

The Quicktime wrapper does work fine together with Iridas SpeedGrade on Intel based Mac's.

The apparent limitations are as follows:

- just 8 bit, because Quicktime does not handle more at this point
- maximum 2k, because Quicktime wrapper does not handle more at this point

Beside all this, its working fine & fast, directly on a SpeedGrade system.

There is already a "how to" doc available at:

http://www.iridas.com/support/techtips/IRIDAS_UsingRedCodeRAW.pdf

To summarize:

Yes, SpeedGrade works already fine with RED CODE .R3D file via the Quicktime wrapper, but it inherits a limitation to 8 bit and 2k maximum, which makes it appropriate mostly only for preview stuff. It also forces you to use an Intel Mac right now. That is in fact unacceptable for production.

Given these obvious limitations I would like to encourage RED to hand out the R3D file support option to third parties as soon as possible, so we get this all sorted out soon enough. There are enough beta testers around the world who are willing to get their bloody nose before the rest of the folks gets one.

Regarding to those arguments that handing out a file format will destroy so much intellectual properties: Even Cineform is handing out READ code to the masses. Just encoding and optimized decoding remains their own domain, but in general there is already a public decoder (codec) so anyone can share and spread the files as required. And Cineforms history is based on that codecs.

I'd really like to see this thread being based on good arguments and preferably much less emotions. This is neither a platform war, a grading app war nor a sales channel for one and not the other products - IMHO. If not, let me know, and I was here the last time - for sure...

I also strongly encourage ANY (upcoming) RED USER who is not aiming at using Scratch or Final Cut Studio to drop an comment here which apps you want to see supporting .R3D natively.

As we learned now: Native support means more than 8 bits and more than 2K resolution in production.

Many users may not know about some inherent Quicktime limitations, such as

- maximum of 32 characters per file name (try it, make a longer name and test playing... have fun)
- maximum 16 bit file amount = 65536 files can be exported from Quicktime Pro

Here is my list what apps should support .R3D natively:

- Iridas SpeedGradeDI
- Eyeon Fusion
- Adobe Master Collection (ie. Premiere Pro & Co.)

Cheers,
Axel

[Joel Kaye]

Again, you need to check your facts before you spew.

It's poor form to brag about customer lists, and customers also typically don't like it.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc,
LA, CA, USA

It's poor form to argue with potential clients using derogatory remarks in public.

He simply said his company had gotten work from those companies without having a Scratch system. He never said none of those companies had ever done anything anywhere with Scratch.

You're the one who's wrong here.

I guess you own that company because I can't imagine most owners would let employees talk the way you do on a public forum. You certainly don't see it from RED team members.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I disagree with you Joel.. And your post was as combative as you say Luki's was.. How about trying to improve the situation instead of adding fuel to the fire.

My english is not the best (I'm from MO) but when somone writes:
"No one of them had a Scratch" that means to me, quite simply, "None of them have a Scratch".

If he had said "No one of them used a Scratch" I might see more of your point.

Luki has been an incredible help on here, and in case you did not know, RedCine is BASED on Scratch with Assimilate's support. Last I checked, that software is free! Hows THAT for a good price?!

If you read Luki's posts (And there are over 250) you will see he has gone out of his way to be a help to a lot of people. But he loves his company and he get's his back up when he thinks people are not giving him a fair shake.

You say we don't see people from RED jumping on others in public?

PLEASE BOY! If I had a nickle for every time our fearless leader Mr. Jannard tore someone on C.com a new one for insulting RED, I would not need to pay for the camera.

Jim's own words: "I have a very thin skin - I want to kick everyone's ass"

Passion is not a bad thing. No one was right, and no one was wrong. It was a disagreement. That's all.

Jay

PS I'm sorry to say MY post was at least as combative as YOUR post.. So I guess I was not much of a help either... :)

[Patrick Tresch]

Thanks Axel, your info are very helpful.

Sorry for that but my list would definitly incorpore :

AVID /from XpressPro to DS nitris...

:)

See you.

Pat

[Joel Kaye]

PS I'm sorry to say MY post was at least as combative as YOUR post.. So I guess I was not much of a help either... :)

Fair enough :-) I'm not really sure what part of my post you disagree with so I'll just skip ahead. I do think I was accurate in representing the previous poster's position though. Perhaps that poster will clarify.

I'm not representing a company but LUKI is. We're potential customers and he's the vendor. Because I've spent most of my life on the vendor side I absolutely hold vendors to a higher standard. I don't know about the other 250 posts. I don't care. I'm commenting on that one.

There's never a reason to be combative if you're representing a company. If he wants to grab a different handle and drop the signature than fine - whatever - have fun. :-)

As far as RedCine goes - tell me the details of the deal and I'll tell you if I agree that "free" is great. Maybe it is. Maybe it's a work for hire. Maybe it's a deal with the devil that locks the codec up. I don't know.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hey Joel,

When I was in Chicago last week there was a panel of people up there including Jim Mathers. Also on the panel was a colorist. He was asked the preferred way we could deliver him the footage and his response was:

10 bit Log DPX files, 2k.

Then another person chimed in: Folks, don't get too stuck on 4k until the rest of the industry can figure out what to do with it.

The very design of REDCine is to allow you to output in any format you need. Now possibly Assimilate may have said "we'll be happy to design something everyone can use, but we'd like first dibs on the native support where color correction is concerned". If they did, that's cool with me and a fair deal.

Jay

Personally I think people are running around screaming 4k 4k.. Except for special effects and an occasional pushin, I will be quite happy down rezzing to 2k for my releases.

[Stokestack]

just 8 bit, because Quicktime does not handle more at this point

OK, that is bunk. QuickTime handles up to 16 bits per channel. Bring Redcode footage into Shake or AE and check the color depth. Not to mention the fact that FC Studio ships with the Uncompressed 10-bit codec.

[Graeme Nattress]

Actually, the quicktime handles 32bit float YCbCr :-)

Graeme

[Emery Wells]

OK, that is bunk. QuickTime handles up to 16 bits per channel. Bring Redcode footage into Shake or AE and check the color depth. Not to mention the fact that FC Studio ships with the Uncompressed 10-bit codec.

I can vouch. The man knows what he's talking about.

[Lucas Wilson]

I'm not representing a company but LUKI is. We're potential customers and he's the vendor. Because I've spent most of my life on the vendor side I absolutely hold vendors to a higher standard. I don't know about the other 250 posts. I don't care. I'm commenting on that one.

There's never a reason to be combative if you're representing a company. If he wants to grab a different handle and drop the signature than fine - whatever - have fun. :-)

Joel - it was combative, and you're right - I shouldn't have gone there. When someone's poking me with a sharp stick, my usual tendency is to grab it and snap it in two as opposed to backing off.

My wife tells me I would argue with a turnip if it looked at me wrong. Perhaps she's got something... :)

I stand by the content of my posts, but the character was a bit off. Mea Culpa.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Joel Kaye]

Personally I think people are running around screaming 4k 4k.. Except for special effects and an occasional pushin, I will be quite happy down rezzing to 2k for my releases.

Right. That's exactly what I've been talking about with everyone I know. 4k? What do you really do with 4K? Shooting there and downrezzing to 2K or 1080P makes a lot more sense to me.

I'm thinking 1080P Prores is probably where I'll be doing post. It's easier to get monitors and cards to do 1080P. It still looks great projected and takes a lot less horsepower to render frames.

Heck, why not work at 720P for anything headed to DVD?

[Joel Kaye]

Mea Culpa.

Well dammit - how am I going to argue with that?

All right - you're OK. Thanks for that post.

[Lin]

OK, that is bunk. QuickTime handles up to 16 bits per channel. Bring Redcode footage into Shake or AE and check the color depth. Not to mention the fact that FC Studio ships with the Uncompressed 10-bit codec.

The document talks about our Quicktime subsystem, not Quicktime in general.

For uncompressed codecs such as AJA we bypass the Quicktime subsystem completely and have full 10 bit capability.

For compressed files we use Apple's Quicktime subsystem with an 8 bit context, so that's what is used with RedCode at the moment, hence the caveat.

We will enable full 32 float capability in our Quicktime subsystem shortly, so you can use the RedCode Quicktimes with SpeedGrade OnSet, all FrameCyclers, including Professional and of course all big SpeedGrades in full bitdepth.

Right now you can use all of the above, but it will only be 8 bit (works for previews quite nicely though).

If you need 4K, then you need to either export 4K DPX from RedAlert or get a quote from Luki for now.

Hope this helps,
Lin

[Axel Mertes]

Actually, the quicktime handles 32bit float YCbCr :-)

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

thanks, Lin just told me that this was the result from a recent conversation between him and you, so 32 Bit seems on the horizon for SpeedGrade.

What about the Windows platform, Graeme?

Thanks a lot,
Axel

[Graeme Nattress]

Windows will arrive in due course.

Graeme

[Chris Kenny]

Actually, the quicktime handles 32bit float YCbCr :-)


Graeme, does this mean the entire latitude of the RAW file makes it into the QuickTime reference movies?

Has anyone tried loading a QuickTime reference movie into Color? Does that work?

[Graeme Nattress]

If you tweak the settings in RedAlert to make the quicktime so that it contains the full dynamic range, then yes, it will pass through Quicktime. However, it's still not as high quality as the full 4k, but we're working on that.

Graeme

[Emery Wells]

Graeme, does this mean the entire latitude of the RAW file makes it into the QuickTime reference movies?

Has anyone tried loading a QuickTime reference movie into Color? Does that work?

Tried loading a quicktime into Color last night and it wouldnt work.

[Rob Lohman]

Tried loading a quicktime into Color last night and it wouldnt work.

Can you be a bit more specific? Error message? or?

[Thor Wixom]

Producers could care less whether a post tool will accept R3D files natively. If you start throwing around terms like "native R3D support" to most producers, they will just glaze over. :)

They care about getting the job done on time and under budget. If a post house has an iQ and they say, "we can do this for X price" and another post house with SCRATCH says, "we can do this for Y price," and X < Y, where do you think the job will go?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Lucas,

Mad props to you and Assimilate for what you have accomplished. I'm a fan.

That being said, I'm a producer, and I care about "native R3D support".

Why?

Because I'm not on the payroll at Lion's Gate, or Warner Bros., or Paramount.

I write, produce, direct, shoot, edit, color grade...heck I even score. I do all these things because A) it's in my blood, and B) because in the early days I couldn't afford to pay anyone one else to do these things for me. I either figured out how to do it myself, or it simply didn't happen. (Now, I do it myself because I know how I want it to be done, and years of experience have helped me to develop the proper skills to continue getting a paycheck for doing it.)

The Red One is (or at least can be) very DIY friendly. Why shouldn't color grading (finishing) be the same? Or any other part of the workflow, for that matter?

So, when you talk about being able to color grade "native R3D" with post tools, I'm VERY interested! ...especially if those tools fit neatly on my desk, or even my lap!

With this in mind, I sincerely believe that a system will exist in the near future that will be as powerful as Scratch, with the price tag of Color.

Of course, maybe it will be Scratch...maybe it will be Color. Maybe it will be both, and then some.

It's zeros and ones...so, logically, it should follow the same path as processors, hard drives, solid state memory, digital cinema cameras :shifty: ...the list goes on and on, as the prices drop lower and lower, and the performance goes higher and higher... you get my point.

It's only a matter of time. As a producer, I look forward to the day when all the tools are at my fingertips.

Now, if I could just figure out a way to reliably pull my own focus...

-Thor

[Thor Wixom]

I also strongly encourage ANY (upcoming) RED USER who is not aiming at using Scratch or Final Cut Studio to drop an comment here which apps you want to see supporting .R3D natively. [/I]

As we learned now: Native support means more than 8 bits and more than 2K resolution in production.

Here is my list what apps should support .R3D natively:

- Iridas SpeedGradeDI
- Eyeon Fusion
- Adobe Master Collection (ie. Premiere Pro & Co.)

Cheers,
Axel

My vote goes for the Adobe Master Collection. It supports 10 bit, and 4k natively, and is cross platform.

-Thor

[Mr. Paul White]

Why Assimilate for $30,000 if we can have a PC and the Premiere? Isn't it enough for 4k online editing, color correcting and grading?

[Greg M]

Why Assimilate for $30,000 if we can have a PC and the Premiere? Isn't it enough for 4k online editing, color correcting and grading?

Its like comparing apples to bananas.
Assimilate is a superior solution for color grading, basically you get what you pay for. If you are working on your own projects you might be happy with Premiere, but if you have a client sitting in the room he may not be happy. It really depends on what you expect.

[Emery Wells]

Can you be a bit more specific? Error message? or?

I had a mixed timeline in FCP with some 1k RED Quicktimes and i used 'send to color.' The RED clips just didnt display while all the others did.

[Mr. Paul White]

Its like comparing apples to bananas.
Assimilate is a superior solution for color grading, basically you get what you pay for. If you are working on your own projects you might be happy with Premiere, but if you have a client sitting in the room he may not be happy. It really depends on what you expect.Understood. So, for a 35mm filmout from a 4k master even if from a 2k intermediate (because it's cheaper), a Premiere or any other similar software is enough, correct? Can I finish in 4k, deliver in 2k, right?

That said, do you have any other similar software suggestions?

[Don King]

I also can't understand the differences. What's the beef with the customer? Would he prefer to be over charged only because he will think that will have a better product because it has been used a $30,000 equipment? My customers prefer to pay as much less as possible.

[Gordon Prince]

These forums are funny. They speak about $30,000 like they share the same dream. However, who are they quoting? People like Bob Dylan. To whom a $30,000 software versus a free software wouldn't impress so much. He would rather prefer the freedom of not selling his art to pay the interest to the bank.

[Greg M]

I also can't understand the differences. What's the beef with the customer? Would he prefer to be over charged only because he will think that will have a better product because it has been used a $30,000 equipment? My customers prefer to pay as much less as possible.

if you cant "understand the differences" then you should be happy, you just saved a bundle.

[Johnny Friday]

if you cant "understand the differences" then you should be happy, you just saved a bundle.

ha ha ha.....that's great! Being a shooter only I will abide by that. That has to be the qoute of the thread for me.

Well said and now i am relieved! :clown2:

[Don King]

Giuseppe Tornatore when arrived into the motion picture business left a quote that has became famous:

"First when I was outside I thought that all the people working in movies were good people, the finest people actually. When I became a director, I could figure out that the only interesting thing there were the movies."

[Gordon Prince]

That has to be the qoute of the thread for me. You're wrong. :clown2: Don has just been posted the quote of the thread, as matter of fact. The people of this business are thinking they are such a good thing because they have the most expensive gear. But later, they will end quoting the Bob Dylans...

[Greg M]

are you guys twins?

but seriously, you think that Premiere and Scratch are equal products?

[Simon Smith]

Three twins actually. But if you wish, you'll be able to find four twins, five twins and so on...

[Gordon Prince]

Ah Ah Ah

[Simon Smith]

Yeah, these guys have so much throat but in the end, their work is most part not so much than just a few seconds.


These forums are funny. They speak about $30,000 like they share the same dream. However, who are they quoting? People like Bob Dylan. To whom a $30,000 software versus a free software wouldn't impress so much. He would rather prefer the freedom of not selling his art to pay the interest to the bank.

[Don King]

are you guys twins?

but seriously, you think that Premiere and Scratch are equal products?

Of course not. I'd just like to understand the differences. Seems to me I'm not alone.

[Greg M]

wow...I think I walked into the wrong room. I dont know what you guys are talking about anymore.

who are "these guys"?

[Mr. Paul White]

Ditto Don. I've asked but with no answers so far.


Understood. So, for a 35mm filmout from a 4k master even if from a 2k intermediate (because it's cheaper), a Premiere or any other similar software is enough, correct? Can I finish in 4k, deliver in 2k, right?

That said, do you have any other similar software suggestions?

[Gordon Prince]

wow...I think I walked into the wrong room. I dont know what you guys are talking about anymore.

who are "these guys"?
Ah Ah Ah

[Don King]

There are so many different layers of demanding. I work mainly with documentary. Does it make sense to go with an expensive tool? Even for narrative work? Feature length, no VFX, etc.

[Mr. Paul White]

I'm still waiting...


Understood. So, for a 35mm filmout from a 4k master even if from a 2k intermediate (because it's cheaper), a Premiere or any other similar software is enough, correct? Can I finish in 4k, deliver in 2k, right?

That said, do you have any other similar software suggestions?

[Lucas Wilson]

Lucas,

Mad props to you and Assimilate for what you have accomplished. I'm a fan.

Thanks for the kind words! : )


That being said, I'm a producer, and I care about "native R3D support".

Why?

Because I'm not on the payroll at Lion's Gate, or Warner Bros., or Paramount.

I write, produce, direct, shoot, edit, color grade...heck I even score. I do all these things because A) it's in my blood, and B) because in the early days I couldn't afford to pay anyone one else to do these things for me. I either figured out how to do it myself, or it simply didn't happen. (Now, I do it myself because I know how I want it to be done, and years of experience have helped me to develop the proper skills to continue getting a paycheck for doing it.)

Good point. Most of the Producers I deal with are either on network episodics, or features above $1 million. In my "normal" world, you're a post supervisor, VFX supervisor, Director, and Producer rolled in one.

But you *are* unusual for a Producer. Most producers, even of sub-$1mil features, are primarily finance and process focused, and let other people handle the tech details. Maybe the Post Supe is very concerned about "native R3D" and makes a convincing argument to the Producer, and then it becomes a check box for the Producer. But it is very unusual for a Producer to make educated technical calls - just not their job.

That said - hats off to you. Chances are very good that you will never be screwed by the unscrupulous post house that wants to gouge for stupid stuff.


With this in mind, I sincerely believe that a system will exist in the near future that will be as powerful as Scratch, with the price tag of Color.

Of course, maybe it will be Scratch...maybe it will be Color. Maybe it will be both, and then some.

It's zeros and ones...so, logically, it should follow the same path as processors, hard drives, solid state memory, digital cinema cameras :shifty: ...the list goes on and on, as the prices drop lower and lower, and the performance goes higher and higher... you get my point.

I do get your point, and it's a pretty simple supply and demand equation. Color correction as a distinct and separate part of the filmmaking process that deserves its own tools and skillsets has traditionally been the realm of the high-end. In my opinion, Apple did an incredible service to filmmaking by making Color part of the FCS2 suite. Regardless of how good a tool it is or isn't - it immediately transformed Color Grading into something that deserved a separate and distinct place in post production. And it exposed that to the consumer, and has forced consumers to think differently about how they make films.

But the bottom line is that professional color correction is a very small market crowded with lots of players who have been doing it for a long time - DaVinci, Pandora, Filmlight, Digital Vision, Autodesk, etc. ASSIMILATE's mission in life is not to be the ultimate color corrector. We are a datacentric workflow tool that happens to have a really good suite of color tools. But more than half of our customers don't buy or use our color tools - they buy and use the playback, review, conform, and back-end XML data management and integration pieces. People keep talking about the price as though it's all about color correction. It's not. It's about managing a pipeline, and making all the pieces fit... and doing color too.

<dismount soapbox>


It's only a matter of time. As a producer, I look forward to the day when all the tools are at my fingertips.

Dude... they are there now. I have a PC laptop with Vegas, Adobe Audition, After Effects, Photoshop, Illustrator, REDCINE, SCRATCH, a couple of DVD authoring programs I've never used, and some photogrammetry software I'm just starting to learn. I have a Mac Tower with... well... friggin everything.

I am an Army of One.


Now, if I could just figure out a way to reliably pull my own focus...

Hey... you're talking to a color-blind color guy with a closet full of attaboys for editing, vfx, and color work. Go figure.

Cheers,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Greg M]

I'm still waiting...

I dont know if Premiere will handle 4k...what about Final Cut Studio and Color? Its a fairly inexpensive solution and it works well with Red and can handle 4k w/ Proxies. Color is a fairly limited application from what I saw at NAB, but it is reasonably priced.

[Roberto B]

Good point. Most of the Producers I deal with are either on network episodics, or features above $1 million. In my "normal" world, you're a post supervisor, VFX supervisor, Director, and Producer rolled in one.

But you *are* unusual for a Producer. Most producers, even of sub-$1mil features, are primarily finance and process focused, and let other people handle the tech details. thor.. it seems you already have your answer.. forget it!.. assimilate is another ballpark..

[Mr. Paul White]

I dont know if Premiere will handle 4k...what about Final Cut Studio and Color? Its a fairly inexpensive solution and it works well with Red and can handle 4k w/ Proxies. Color is a fairly limited application from what I saw at NAB, but it is reasonably priced.Thanks. Mr. Newman has said that Cineform will provide 4k...

[Greg M]

There are so many different layers of demanding. I work mainly with documentary. Does it make sense to go with an expensive tool? Even for narrative work? Feature length, no VFX, etc.


Are you asking a question or making a statement?

I think you are the only one who can answer this..this is really a personal question. If your jobs generate the income to justify the cost, then yes. If they dont, then no.

[Greg M]

Thanks. Mr. Newman has said that Cineform will provide 4k...

Yes, I forgot about Cineform...that might be a good solution. I would suggest you find a dealer in your area that handles these products and arrange for a demo. That way there wont be any surprises.

EDIT:
They have a trial version-
http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/Downloads.htm

EDIT2:
I dont see 4k

[Don King]

Are you asking a question or making a statement?

I think you are the only one who can answer this..this is really a personal question. If your jobs generate the income to justify the cost, then yes. If they dont, then no.

It's a question, a fair one. After checking all the corrected and graded posts that we can find following the footage subforum, I can't understand what I can find further with Assimilate that I may not get with a basic tool ala Ulead PhotoImpact.

[Gordon Prince]

Yes, I forgot about Cineform...that might be a good solution. I would suggest you find a dealer in your area that handles these products and arrange for a demo. That way there wont be any surprises.

EDIT:
They have a trial version-
http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/Downloads.htm

EDIT2:
I dont see 4khttp://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3753

[Greg M]

It's a question, a fair one. After checking all the corrected and graded posts that we can find following the footage subforum, I can't understand what I can find further with Assimilate that I may not get with a basic tool ala Ulead PhotoImpact.

:help:

:bye2:

[Don King]

Ulead PhotoImpact is a basic software ala Photoshop in still photography. But what I can get there, it's enough to me. My major doubt is if there's enough quality to go with color correcting and grading in 4k for broadcast or even for the big screen (filmout) in a similar software for motion picture.

[Simon Smith]

It looks as though, here's the key about what Don is asking for:


There are so many different layers of demanding. I work mainly with documentary. Does it make sense to go with an expensive tool? Even for narrative work? Feature length, no VFX, etc.

[Don King]

Exactly. Apples to apples.

[John Tissavary]

Ok, this is going to be a long one...

When choosing tools for any portion of the post production pipeline I usually get to choose two out of three of the most important features: good, fast, cheap. My experience is unless you're borrowing someone else's software you just don't get all three.

If you're in a part of this business where clients are nearly always present, like commercials & music videos, then it's important to go fast with maximum image quality. That means a suite of 'high-end' tools that deliver high quality image manipulation in real time so the producers and agency/label execs don't get antsy and start making change orders while the computer thinks about your last input (an in suite bar can help, too). This is where DaVinci, Pogle, Baselight, Iridas, and Scratch products fit in. This market requires hi rez real time performance with (almost) no impact on image quality.

If you're not getting your paycheck from the suits looking over your shoulder then it's really a lot easier to save money and still get great quality tools to work with.

If real-time is not an issue, there are a whole lot of choices - Adobe Prod Suite, FCS, Shake, Nuke, Combustion, etc... These softwares have limited realtime functionality, but have great toolsets that can accomplish most anything you throw at them.

I've worked color on several features & music videos using a combination of Shake, Nuke, Combustion, and Premiere Pro. I've also graded fx plates for mainstream large budget (60mil and up) features in Shake and Nuke. They have the tools needed for color correction. But I wouldn't color correct an entire feature on any single of those tools if I had my choice.

Shake, Nuke, & Combustion don't have a workflow geared to that kind of work, and I have yet to find a set of color tools for Premiere Pro that can handle colorspace the way I like, and the tiny friggin' Adobe style interface controls just piss me off endlessly when I have to do a lot of work.

So I use a combination of tools. Cuts or sequences that don't require a great deal of manipulation I'll CC in Premiere (or whatever nle) on the timeline, other shots I'll send out to AE (nice interoperability these days), or if I want to get down and dirty I'll use Shake or Nuke because they have the most powerful sets of tools IMHO (and I get get way under the hood with scripts and api if needed). I'm a node kinda guy, personally I can't stand the AE interface & linear workflow, though I've seen some incredible work performed with it, as good as anything from Shake or Nuke (the artist not the tools... !).

This kind of workflow requires a lot of care, because jumping from one software to another can cause some real format headaches. If you don't watch out it's easy to get a pixel aspect, framerate, colorspace, bit depth, or any one of a zillion other mismatches that will create some wasted time and bald spots (from head scratching...) when going for final output.

Adobe Production Suite is 4k capable right out of the box, and useable as long as you have the hardware to deal with it. The Premiere / After Effects / Photoshop interoperability is really neat, though there are some serious limitations that have to be planned for in any project (nested Premiere clips aren't supported in AE, for instance).

It's my understanding that at the moment FCS is limited to 2k. I've read in this thread that 2k proxy and 4k conform is possible, but I've no idea how to do that.

Cineform is not, I believe, currently delivering a commercial version of Prospect for 4k. But they do have it working and I guess will release it shortly. Currently input can be 4k, but the transcode is limited to 2k. Also, the workflow from Redcode to Cineform will an extra transcode step until Red provides the necessary 'stuff' to allow Cineform to include Recode in their transcoding tool (or vice versa).

Whew, that _was_ long!

jt

[Mr. Paul White]

the workflow from Redcode to Cineform will an extra transcode step until Red provides the necessary 'stuff' to allow Cineform to include Recode in their transcoding tool (or vice versa).

Will it be an easy task? Or shall we lose something in the middle?

[Axel Mertes]

The problem is always how exactly you preview your stuff in native resolutions. 4K preview is even pushing most high end suites beyond their limits. Rarely you'll find a 4K equipped grading suite with a Sony SRXD projector etc. (but there are some).

Anyhow, up to 2K is almost no issue. Quad HD screens are there already, but few to choose from. Its not a myst, but requires you to put the right pieces together.

Technically you can benefit from a higher resolution for grading for simple reasons:

Most todays screens or projectors have just simple 8 bit I/O (DVI). There is no real chance to get more colors through to the display device. The device *may* have a 10/11/12/16 bit processing internally, but thats just for adjusting gamma & brightness. Most times the final panel will still be an 8 or 10 bit one, and you hardly put in more than 8 through the pipeline.

So dithering becomes a cool helper here, because it'll create intermediate colors. We do have realtime dithering in SpeedGradeDI (thanks to Lin & Patrick to making this happen after our request) and it gives you *more* colors. Imagine you have a 4K display and 2K footage. Then you can potentially dither at a higher resolution, actually NOT loosing detail at all and gaining bits to distinguish colors better (test digital gradients to see it).

Dithering can be done areal or temporal or both. Its just a question if one wants to use it. Noisy footage doesn't necessarily need dithering beeing applied. Pure digital rendering stuff can profit strongly.

That being said I see 4K coming shortway to the low end market, as GPU accelerated decoding of 4K RAW footage will soon make playback in realtime full 4K viable on a lower end systems and 4K screens becoming somewhat affordable (not for home uses, but enthusiasts). NVidia Quadro FX cards already handle 4K displays basically well, but the idea of feeding uncompressed 4K 10/16 bit DPX footage into them is the bad deal.

On a long term a pure RAW based pipeline may become popular. I see no real big benefit from a JPEG2000 encoded final result stream of original RAW footage versus a keeping the pipeline in RAW completely. Well, the RAW may decode faster right now, encode faster as well.

Question here:

Will there be tools to actually encode RGB images to become RAW files. May sound unpopular in the first step, but from encoding side may be interesting to compare.

What about having reverse Bayer displays, just have exactly the same pattern pixels to SHOW the images as the CMOS sensor used to capture them. Right now displays try to have RGB per pixel, while CMOS does either have R, G or B per pixel. Thats 1/3...

Just some thoughts to push development...

Cheers,
Axel

[Roberto B]

is it hard to follow up the concern also expressed by others over here?..

future proof..
4k monitoring is not necessary..
maybe just a calibrated display..

is it so difficult?..

[Greg M]

Ulead PhotoImpact is a basic software ala Photoshop in still photography. But what I can get there, it's enough to me. My major doubt is if there's enough quality to go with color correcting and grading in 4k for broadcast or even for the big screen (filmout) in a similar software for motion picture.

Don King,
To anwser your PM- This software is not designed for what you are asking.
Will it work? I have no idea.

I produce mostly commercials so I require more robust software as I generally have clients in our suites supervising their work. They come to us because they trust us and know we have the tools to get the job done on time and on budget.

I really dont have the experience with the software you mentioned to answer your question, but the bottom line is if you want to work in 4k you are stepping up to the big league. What I mean by this is you are going to need some very fast hardware, generally speaking you are going to need the fastest hardware currently available to support reasonable speeds. Furthermore (if you are competing with others doing the same kind of work) you need to be prepared to replace that hardware quickly- as soon as something faster hits the market. We base our rates on these factors and therefor we are always looking for ways to finish our work better and faster to stay a step ahead of our competitors.
If you dont have to worry about these factors (competition) then you can get away with slower hardware and less efficient software. Unfortunately I don't have much experience with these applications so there is not much I can offer to this discussion.

[Don King]

Of course, I know that simple software is not designed for motion picture. I had just gave an example if it would be possible to consider this kind of examples (ex. After Effects) for this use. I'm coming from the ENG/TV side. Most documentary type Discovery, National Geographic, etc. Now, I'd like to start up on the CC and grading side. 4k with a price like those announced by David Newman is the goal.

[Thor Wixom]

Thanks for the kind words! : )

You're welcome!


Good point. Most of the Producers I deal with are either on network episodics, or features above $1 million. In my "normal" world, you're a post supervisor, VFX supervisor, Director, and Producer rolled in one.

But you *are* unusual for a Producer. Most producers, even of sub-$1mil features, are primarily finance and process focused, and let other people handle the tech details. Maybe the Post Supe is very concerned about "native R3D" and makes a convincing argument to the Producer, and then it becomes a check box for the Producer. But it is very unusual for a Producer to make educated technical calls - just not their job.

That said - hats off to you. Chances are very good that you will never be screwed by the unscrupulous post house that wants to gouge for stupid stuff.

Thanks, Lucas.


I do get your point, and it's a pretty simple supply and demand equation. Color correction as a distinct and separate part of the filmmaking process that deserves its own tools and skillsets has traditionally been the realm of the high-end. In my opinion, Apple did an incredible service to filmmaking by making Color part of the FCS2 suite. Regardless of how good a tool it is or isn't - it immediately transformed Color Grading into something that deserved a separate and distinct place in post production. And it exposed that to the consumer, and has forced consumers to think differently about how they make films.

Agreed.


But the bottom line is that professional color correction is a very small market crowded with lots of players who have been doing it for a long time - DaVinci, Pandora, Filmlight, Digital Vision, Autodesk, etc. ASSIMILATE's mission in life is not to be the ultimate color corrector. We are a datacentric workflow tool that happens to have a really good suite of color tools. But more than half of our customers don't buy or use our color tools - they buy and use the playback, review, conform, and back-end XML data management and integration pieces. People keep talking about the price as though it's all about color correction. It's not. It's about managing a pipeline, and making all the pieces fit... and doing color too.

<dismount soapbox>

Dude... they are there now. I have a PC laptop with Vegas, Adobe Audition, After Effects, Photoshop, Illustrator, REDCINE, SCRATCH, a couple of DVD authoring programs I've never used, and some photogrammetry software I'm just starting to learn. I have a Mac Tower with... well... friggin everything.

I am an Army of One.

Lucas, you're a man after my own heart. I didn't entirely expect this...and it is a refreshing surprise. Kudos to you! With that kind of understanding, the future is very bright for Assimilate. I hope that as it becomes possible, you will continue to lead the way in breaking down the price/performance barriers, and be the Promethues of color correction, bringing the fire of the digital gods to the people.


Hey... you're talking to a color-blind color guy with a closet full of attaboys for editing, vfx, and color work. Go figure.

No worries, even Beethoven was deaf!

-Thor

[radi]

[QUOTE=luki;92502]... SpeedgradeDI is listed at US$40,000 software only.

So - what`s the list price of a Scratch - software only?
Just to compare....

[Curran Giddens]

[QUOTE=luki;92502]... SpeedgradeDI is listed at US$40,000 software only.

So - what`s the list price of a Scratch - software only?
Just to compare....

oh no you didn' . no talkin' 'bout Scratch prices here.

No really, you have to email them to find out prices.

[Rob Lohman]

Florian: welcome aboard. Please e-mail Lucas if you want to get a quote for Scratch. You can reach him at lucas at assimilateinc dot com

[roryhinds]

Rob I hope you're on commission :-)

[Rob Lohman]

I'll have to send Lucas an e-mail too ;)

[laguun]

I'll have to send Lucas an e-mail too ;)


hey rob.
if thats the official red comment on
discreet (flame, inferno, lustre, smoke)
quantel (iQ, eQ, pablo)
avid (media composer, DS nitris)
adobe (premiere, after FX, phtoshop)

i will not even ask about iridas speedgrade.
ok?
but tell every single customer to explain why we need 32MByte a frame a sec that it is politics.


btw: there isn´t -any- scratch house in berlin.
so, what would you recommend me to offer to, lets say, the wachowky brothers shootin "speed racers"? or universal shooting "valkyrie" with tom cruise?

to drop their DI?
or did i miss something else besides the jokes about bribes for you from assimilate in this thread, which is called:

"will red release their codec for grading systems".
the existing ones.

[Rob Lohman]

but tell every single customer to explain why we need 32MByte a frame a sec that it is politics.
....
to drop their DI?


Most of the DI / post houses are used to working with DPX etc., especially for the big movies like you mentioned. That *IS* their DI, so no, we actually don't want / ask them to drop it all, actually the opposite, we cater to what they want / need.

The adding of DPX with a LOG output to RED ALERT was actually done for a lot of requests from this sector. As long as they can get their LOG or print-density DPX they seem to be happy....

You know what they say... Rome wasn't built in a day. We're running as fast as we can... You have DPX, TIFF, QuickTime and soon OpenEXR, Cineon, Targa & JPEG (REDCINE) outputs... that's what you will have to live with for now. For a product being out on the market just 1.5 months, I'd say that's pretty good support.

[roryhinds]

Hi Rob

What's the hold up with REDCine? I thought it was working months ago at NAB.

[Rob Lohman]

Rory: it was, but we weren't happy with it. So we changed some things. Which resulted in a few quality problems we're fixing now. Working is not the same as ready for release.... there was also other development to be done, we have a small dev team!

[Lucas Wilson]

btw: there isn´t -any- scratch house in berlin..

You might want to check again... we do have customers in Berlin. ;)

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[roryhinds]

Hi Rob

How far behind the Windows version is the Mac version of REDCine?

[Nils Ruinet]

So regarding this question :


"will red release their codec for grading systems".
the existing ones.

...I guess the answer is "NO, you'll have to convert to DPX files"...
:umm:

[Ben Feuer]

So regarding this question :


...I guess the answer is "NO, you'll have to convert to DPX files"...
:umm:

Actually, I think the answer is - take a chill pill.:cold:

[Greg M]

to drop their DI?
or did i miss something else besides the jokes about bribes for you from assimilate in this thread, which is called:

"will red release their codec for grading systems".
the existing ones.

dude, are the anger management classes in Berlin all full?

lighten up... these guys are just getting started.