Just wrapped shooting on a ET neutron (on steadicam)....

[Pedro Guimaraes]

Thought you guys might be interested,

Just completed a shoot for Discovery channel, using the new Element technica neutron rig and si-2k's. I worked as stereographer and steadicam operator. DP/Lead stereographer was Keith Collea. We had a total of 3 neutrons, 1 "dark country" rig and 2 Panasonics!

All I can say is I can't wait to get some EPIC's or scarlets on this rig!

Having just operated 3D steadicam with the p+s freestyle I have to say even though the neutron lacks opposing IO movement it is much better suited to steadicam operation. Pretty much for that same reason.

The lower camera base of the Freestyle has to be wide to account for the camera moving side to side. This makes it so, if the gimbal is where I want it to be (slammed to the top of my post) I can't pan 90 degrees to do a tracking shot! So what you have to do is lower you gimbal, thereby having to either add more batt. weight or extend you post. Either of which I really don't want to do. You end up with a heavier total weight. Even more so if you have heavier cameras like a Red One...

The Freestyle also has other deficiencies i will not get into right now. Suffice to say the neutron doesn't share those.

you can see my lower gimbal position in this photo, which is undesirable...
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee298/ddragon76/Pedro_promo/IMG_2135.jpg

Same camera setup on the neutron results in a much lighter total weight. (I'll weigh it tomorrow as I'm prep'ing another job). Because the lower camera on the neutron does not move it has a much smaller area hanging down in front on my gimbal/hand. Thus allowing me to move my gimbal all the way to the top of the post and still allow me to pan left and right freely. most importantly because of the gimbal position I can keep my post short and the rig on the lighter side....

You can see below how high my gimbal is. In fact I raised it further a tiny bit after the picture. Reversing the Si's on the dovetail also brought my weights closer to the center and lowered the mirrorbox. making for a more centralized mass. You can see I didn't even have to move the cinedeck to far backward to achieve the proper balance. I'll probably use a shorter dovetail next time.
http://pgfilms.tv/News/Entries/2010/8/8_Discovery_3D_%28network%29_Sandcastle_3D_Shot_fi les/DSC_9336.jpg

More importantly the rig aligned well and the remote motorized controls worked great for both shoot days...

Thumbs up to ET for making a nice piece of equipment. As much as I wanted the p+s to work I think if I had to chose (as a steadicam operator and stereographer) I would rather fly the neutron.

Pulling IO during a shot does of course present serious challenges. That can also be said of the p+s. The p+s is certainly better in this regard but I'd rather "lose" that feature but have more operational freedom with the neutron.

You can see in this pic how close I had my gimbal to the docking ring on the post....also noticed we used Zeiss 16mm(mk.3) primes on the second day of shooting.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee298/ddragon76/Pedro_promo/P1000879.jpg

Even tough I was hardmounted occasionally, I ended up operating from my vest most of the 2 days on the soft beach sand. I did a few 7min interview takes on the first day on the vest but on day 2 we used our cinerover(steadicam dolly) to do the longer walk and talk interviews. Which helped keep my legs fresh for other stuff during the day.

It was a fun shoot and a great crew. Big thanks to Doug Loeb at element technica that got me educated on the rig in no time. I leave tomorrow for 12 days in S. Africa for a shoot with the same setup on my steadicam. Much smaller crew this time but still should be another fun 3D adventure...



So to my friends at RED........when can I try out some epics on this guy? :thumbsup: Any chance you need a test? I would love a picture of that!

[Paul Leeming]

Pedro,

nice report, thanks!

Can you elaborate a bit on the lack of opposing IO movement and what exactly that means for shooting?

Cheers from Tokyo!

Paul

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

That's a big steadicam.

How much did this 3D weight?

[Philippe Van Horebeek]

Very intresting to read ! I have an upcoming 3D steadicam job in september. I'm in the process of searching and testing for a good setup. So all this first hand information is very welcome and useful !
The setup with the Neutron looks very intresting to me, maybe I should try this one out.
Like Paul Leeming said : Can you elaborate a bit on the lack of opposing IO movement and what the consequences are ?

Anyway, thanks for your report, those remarks concerning the position of the gimbal are very important !

Cheers,

Philippe

[Rudi Herbert]

Pedro,

I see you were using the Cinedeck, you used one or two of them for stereo recording? Also, how's the monitor on the Cinedeck? I'm thinking about using for underwater work and wonder if the monitor will be bright and sharp enough to use as my main monitor once I put it in a housing.

[Pedro Guimaraes]

Pedro,

Can you elaborate a bit on the lack of opposing IO movement and what exactly that means for shooting?

Paul

The P+s move both camera equally.

The Neutron maintains on camera still and moves the other.

Well, in "theory" directly opposing cameras should like much the counterweights on you automobile crankshaft "cancel" each other out and not affect balance.

Obviously if you rev a big V8 quickly the car will "rock/roll" to one side....you rev the same motor slowly and it will not do that.

With the p+s rig this is exactly true.....slow constant pull will not "torque the rig and affect balance. The issue with imbalance on a rig like the p+s comes from the fact that we always fighting the "front heaviness" of any beamsplitter rig on a steadicam. We tend to put more objects on the top camera......therefore altering the weight of each side of the rig. This creates and imbalance.

Also even with a equally balanced p+s rig, if you have a slower drop time on your steadicam making more sensitive to input you will still develop a lean and IO is increased. BUT NOT nearly as much as with rigs that only move one camera. All I'm saying is it is still there. The p+s solution is not perfect in this regard. Very good....but not 100%. Certainly makes an slow IO pull MUCH easier for the operator to pull off.


With a rig like the neutron with NO opposing movement. ANY change in IO will result in a rather significant change in side to side balance...more IO more lean....Obviously on a feature where the operator can rehearse the move and try to predict the lean and correct for it by applying counter pressure......this is not ideal, not easy to keep a level horizon but it is possible.....

Like I said the biggest downside of p+s solution is the fact that the bottom camera plate has to be so large.....resulting in the gimbal placement issues.

Like I mentioned at this point I'd rather not have the option to "pull" IO during a shot and instead have more freedom of steadicam operation. So at this point my "nod" goes to the neutron.

I think the ultimate solution for steadicam will be the internal movement of a counter weight. Therefore not affecting the bottom camera plate size and also very important being able to "map" it's movement to counter whatever weight configuration(discrepancy) between both cameras. This mapping feature is really the key.

here is a picture from a few hours ago during prep for my Africa shoot.

you can clearly see here the I have the gimbal all the way up (left room to enter the docking bracket) and I can still clear my handle.....I can literally spring my rig 360. Yes it is a close fit to the end of the dovetail. I mentioned this to ET and they said they will offer a shorter dovetail, this giving you plenty more room!

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee298/ddragon76/Pedro_promo/2010-08-18155437.jpg

[Pedro Guimaraes]

That's a big steadicam.

How much did this 3D weight?

It's looks worse than it is.....I forgot to weight the dam rig again today (too much stress during prep)

But I can tell you I am using my regular steadicam EFP arm. Which tops out around 47bs...... and today I think I had it around 3/4 mark on all my springs...so maybe around 40 or less pounds?

I will have to check back in with an exact weight soon. Now I am curious!:confused5:

It's not a bad weight especially for a 2k 3D steadicam. But do a few takes of walk and talk in the sand......few running takes....walking up stairs or simply hold still (tripod style) fr 8 or so mins and it's starts getting heavier!

But it all depends on your setup,

Today we using linos c-mount size lenses....no focus motors.... so very light setup.

you can also opt for PL 16mm ultra primes....with full c-motion focus, Iris , zoom motors......2 camins....etc.....wireless video transiver.....etc....you will go past 50 lbs.....

the same neutron with epics....and full FIZ motors etc....... will also end up past 50lbs....

So it really depends on your setup......

[Pedro Guimaraes]

Pedro,

I see you were using the Cinedeck, you used one or two of them for stereo recording? Also, how's the monitor on the Cinedeck? I'm thinking about using for underwater work and wonder if the monitor will be bright and sharp enough to use as my main monitor once I put it in a housing.


Cindeck records both "eye/cameras" to a single file. Cineform codec. So we only use one Cinedeck.

You can rent them now (cameras,lenses, cinedeck and rig) from VER or HDRentals here in LA.

My underwater housing was designed to use the cindeck as the operating monitor.

The monitor on the cinedeck SUCKS. But it's all we got so.....The cinedeck has a SD BNC connector output. So you can send SD signal to your favorite underwater SD monitor. That is ultimately the best solution.

[Paul Leeming]

Pedro, thankyou for that detailed and clear explanation! It really helped me understand what you mean by opposing IO :)

Cheers from Japan,

Paul :)

[Philippe Van Horebeek]

Yes, thank you Pedro for that detailed and in depth explanation. A very interesting and well explained thread.

Philippe

[Pedro Guimaraes]

last thing, the cinedeck has SD bnc output so I just use a T connector and send one signal to my D-box that supplies my superbright transvideo monitor (usually looking at whatever camera is not looking into the mirror (the transmissive camera).

The other end of the T I send a signal to a modulos or other video transmitter.

So this setup is very convinient. I don"t even need a downconverter....