Timelapse & Moco

[HD Hildebrand]

Timelapse and Motion Control has been discussed on DVXuser a few times, but have never seen the end specs on this intended for the RED. There have been responses that Red will have timelapse, but will there be any possiblity of sending out a signal for moco.

I have been using my 35mm cameras with intervalometers and a custom designed dolly/moco system with great success over the years. If there is some way of sending out a signal from Red when the shutter is closed, mocos and their stepper motors could be programmed to make thier incremental moves.

I'm currently adapting digital still cameras to this, but would be great if Red could do the same. Any update on this would be great.

[Stuart English]

Can you tell me what signals you want / have for -

"Record next frame"

"Record complete"

?

[Stephen Williams]

Can you tell me what signals you want / have for -

"Record next frame"

"Record complete"

?

Hi Stuart,

A switch open/closure (+5v better) would work with most moco's

Take Frame (record next frame) is fine, need to know how many milliseconds until ready for next frame!

Or frame complete which will fire the MoCo.

Stephen

[CVB]

It would be great to allow the pace of the shot to be controlled by the moco system, not the camera. Basically the moco system sends a pulse/serial command to tell the camera to record a frame and the shutter stays open as long as the pulse is logic high - that allows the moco system to control the frame rate and exposure time. After each frame is taken (logic low) the moco system moves to the next position in the designated path and waits until it is ready to send out the next pulse.

Having a serial interface allows for much more flexibility in the future... for instance what if RED eventually has on board compositing software that would allow you to record a shot with moco then play back the footage in sync with realtime playback on the moco system. It would be great for making sure your shots are lined up and that you are getting the look you want - especially with timelapse/cloning shots.

[Tom Lowe]

Timelapse and Motion Control has been discussed on DVXuser a few times, but have never seen the end specs on this intended for the RED. There have been responses that Red will have timelapse, but will there be any possiblity of sending out a signal for moco.

I have been using my 35mm cameras with intervalometers and a custom designed dolly/moco system with great success over the years. If there is some way of sending out a signal from Red when the shutter is closed, mocos and their stepper motors could be programmed to make thier incremental moves.

I'm currently adapting digital still cameras to this, but would be great if Red could do the same. Any update on this would be great.

I am trying to build a moco system like this for my DLSR before August. I want to be able to do all the stuff Fricke pulled off in Baraka, particularly the last 4 minutes or so with the night/star-trail timelapses. I guess that's 3 axes of motion, if you count a dolly move, pan, and tilt. So three stepper motors. Any chance you could tell us more about your system and how it works? Or how your DLSR system is coming along? Maybe post a couple pics? If it's a trade secret, I understand!

Building a system for the RED will be different, though, because of the large weight difference between it and a DLSR.

thanks!

[CVB]

I have found that the system itself isn't the hard part... making a mechanical frame that holds the camera and the motors is fairly easy. The software and circuitry behind it the tricky part. We have spent 5 years and 4 iterations on our system and we think finally we have a winner. Best of luck on your system though. I'm looking forward to using the RED on our setup... We'll be sure to post test shots when the time arrives.

[Jim Arthurs]

I am trying to build a moco system like this for my DLSR before August. I want to be able to do all the stuff Fricke pulled off in Baraka, particularly the last 4 minutes or so with the night/star-trail timelapses. I guess that's 3 axes of motion, if you count a dolly move, pan, and tilt. So three stepper motors.

Tom, six or seven years ago when I made most of my living from 35mm time-lapse, I needed a better motor system for my two cameras (a heavy Wall and my portable Cameflex CM3). I wanted something with good interval program capability, something I could set up from a PC and then have all the instructions retained in a small portable unit under DC power.

I built a controller for both cameras based off of this unit;

http://www.applied-motion.com/products/stepper/drives/1240i.php

At the time, products from this company had the potential to be ganged together into a multi-axis setup if you had a wee bit of programming ability... I haven't researched what the latest/greatest is from these folks, but it might be worth some time on their website...

Regards,

[Tom Lowe]

Jim, thanks. I will check them out.

I was thinking of trying to go with a simple solution like the one offered here...

http://www.robotics.com/md2.html

The product seems a little "dated," though. It says "hook it up to your PC's parallel port." I don't think any of my computers even have parallel ports any more! Certainly not my laptop.

Or I was thinking of just getting in touch with some of these companies, like Harbortronics, and asking them to put something together based on my exact needs. I just hope it won't cost a fortune.

Actually, I figured that I needed 4 "axes" - because one of them has to trigger the shutter on my DLSR, coordinated to the dolly and other steppers. I guess what people here are asking for is more complicated than a simple "fire shutter" signal.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Curt, are you going to have a booth at NAB?

[CVB]

Yes, close to the Zacuto booth. We'll have our system there along with some other goodies.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Excellent. Can't wait to meet you guys!

[HD Hildebrand]

Some great suggestions by Stephen and CVB. I think CVB's suggestions would be the best in the long run and would truely allow RED to excell in the moco world, but would take Stephen's too if the other option is not possible. Even a constant pulse sent out while shutter is closed, then pulse termintates as shutter opens.

Tom, I don't have any pictures (I'll look around though). Like CVB, I too have been using 35mm Camaflex's/CM3's. But your suggestion on Harbortronics is valid - that's what I'm toying with at the moment. Talk to Mark there, for he said he was going to have there 2800's customized to power 3 axis steppers, by the end of 2006, which may work well with the digital cameras if it's ever completed.

Stuart, if the RED could take a signal as CVB suggests and the Harbortronics units are completed, we could literally have a 3 axis stepper system that is programable, extremely portable, very inexpensive, and extremely sweet. This way you could choose and switch out which 3 axis' you wanted - pan/tilt/dolly or tilt/jib/dolly... But the thing is, with CVB's suggestion, it would also allow RED to work on a much larger moco scale then this simple scenario.

[CVB]

We started with steppers on our first design and deemed them too loud for our liking... we wanted to be able to do real time moco shots and still be able to record sound so now we are using brushless DC motors. Depending on your setup the stepper motors might also need gear heads, that introduces backlash and about $200/axis. If you are just running the moco for time lapse with a D20 then its not really a problem, for live action with a 30lb load its another story. For motion control you really need a rock solid setup and one way to get it is to use high quality bearings, have a very rigid structure to support everything, and use zero backlash gear heads. If you take shortcuts in this area you're in for a world of hurt in post.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that its difficult to have a good, long term, reliable moco system without putting a fair amount of capital into the hardware. If you factor in how much your time is worth and the cost of the development and hardware you would probably find that you will spend around $8-10K for a decent setup that will last.

[Jim Arthurs]

Like CVB, I too have been using 35mm Camaflex's/CM3's.

I'm the one with the CM3.... or at least had. I sold it just before the bottom fell out of the used film market :)

[HD Hildebrand]

Sorry Jim, confused on who had the CM3's. Great old cameras though.

I've also used small servos with geared heads on my dolly. Works very well for timelapse, but not as accurate as steppers for repeat motion.

[Stephen Williams]

Sorry Jim, confused on who had the CM3's. Great old cameras though.

I've also used small servos with geared heads on my dolly. Works very well for timelapse, but not as accurate as steppers for repeat motion.

Hi,

Depends on the resoloution of your encoders.

Stephen

[Tom Lowe]

We started with steppers on our first design and deemed them too loud for our liking... we wanted to be able to do real time moco shots and still be able to record sound so now we are using brushless DC motors. Depending on your setup the stepper motors might also need gear heads, that introduces backlash and about $200/axis. If you are just running the moco for time lapse with a D20 then its not really a problem, for live action with a 30lb load its another story. For motion control you really need a rock solid setup and one way to get it is to use high quality bearings, have a very rigid structure to support everything, and use zero backlash gear heads. If you take shortcuts in this area you're in for a world of hurt in post.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that its difficult to have a good, long term, reliable moco system without putting a fair amount of capital into the hardware. If you factor in how much your time is worth and the cost of the development and hardware you would probably find that you will spend around $8-10K for a decent setup that will last.

I hear you. I am hoping to get my DLSR system up and running this summer. I need to find a super steady "track" system. The camera weighs a couple pounds, plus there will be pan and tilt motors on the dolly "car" -- so we are talking ten pounds maybe(?), and there will be wires running to it, but I am hoping to build a system much smaller than what you would need for a fullsize camera. One thing I am really wondering about is what type of track to use. I considered and researched oversized model train tracks (G gauge or above) but they are way too rickety and unstable. I am not trying to do repeatable moves, but still, as you mention, you want the motion system to be super, super rock solid and stable.

Do you guys have any suggestions for a track to support a DLSR and a "car" with a DLSR on it and several steppers controlling tilt and pan?

I was thinking of maybe looking into some kind of large monorail, like these linear stepper slides to control the dolly part.

http://www.h2wtech.com/images/image028.jpg

I want to be able to move the camera maybe 10 feet or so down the track, even more if the system can be made scalable.

Regarding Harbortronics, would that be 3 axes, plus a "fire shutter" signal that would fire the shutter, then move the other steppers between takes? It seems to me the whole thing needs to be integrated. It would be nice if one of these companies built a DLSR moco system so non-techinical guys like me only have to worry about shooting, not building systems. :)

[HD Hildebrand]

Yes, Harbortronics is supposed to be 3 axis + trigger shutter. But as I mentioned, that was supposed to be done by the end of 2006 and I still see no mention on thier web.

I made a dolly that is portable, solid, with steering mechanism and runs on standard straight or curved track (if I want it to) - this way I could use it for regular dolly moves with the motor disengeged and I can also engage the motor for timelapse. I took it to the Himalayas (so it's relatively portable and fits in its own case). Now for the track - I really dislike the whole pvc stuff (why bother if the surface has to be flat and smooth - may as well just run it on the floor then) and usually prefer professional track, but I built aluminum track out of aluminum pipe, fit and riveted inside aluminum u-channel, with aluminum trusses with locking guides to exactly mimic professional track, stuffed it in and O'Connor tripod case and I was off. As for the wheels - I needed them to be powered by the motor, on a type of axel/drives system (though not powered by the motor when disengaged for regular dolly moves) so skateboard wheels were out. Instead I got wide "blue wheels" with softer durometer, yet firm enough to run on floors without track, then I put these wheels through a lathe and made them convex to run on track (yet still firm enough to run on floor without track). Front steering is like rack and pinion and rear wheels are on an axel. Since then I have 2 more dollies, but the new ones are much more intricate in design and still working on the motorized elements with them. Sure wish I had somebody to build all this crap for me - I just want to shoot.

Don't know if any of this helps or makes sense, but PM me if you have questions so I don't clutter up this RED forum with stuff that is not applicable to the RED.

But what is applicable to the RED is how we can send a signal in or out for timelapse - so Stuart - thank you and thanks to the entire Red team for listening to our needs and considering them. It truly is appreciated.

[Andrew Walker]

Timelapse with the Red would be interesting if the shutter could be left open. But some of the places I go I would rather have my 20D there shooting and not the Red. Of course if I have a whole crew there then it wouldn't be a big deal.

[Sebastian Cramer]

Hey, I'd also like to say it would be essential for me to get some sort of a sync pulse from the camera to match multiple passes on a moco rig. The best would be a 5V TTL on shutter open/ shutter closed.
The optional trigger "shoot next frame" would be absolutly great! Also to go to lower frame rates like 3, 6 or 12 fps. What happens to the timecode signal if the frame rate goes down? The timecode might also be used as a sync source.
Thanx.

[Stokestack]

The ability to control the duration of each exposure would be pretty handy, especially in a situation like a sunset where the light is changing and you might want to ramp the exposure over time.

But really, wouldn't full USB control of the camera solve all of this? Isn't there supposed to be a USB interface? If we could just send a exposure-parameter block in one burst, followed by a shutter release, that'd probably do. Even if we didn't get a "shutter closed" signal, we could make a good guess as to how long to wait before advancing the moco hardware.

So could someone (Stuart?) give us an update on the state of USB connectivity on the Red and what kind of control we have over the camera with it? And thanks for soliciting opinions on this application; it's important to some of us.

[Tom Lowe]

Hey Dan, where do you live? Do you want to help me build a motion rig for DLSR timelapse.. I'll pay for it. :)

[allano]

Hello All

My first forum mail here

As owner of a mosys.com motion control system I am interested in a RED camera for the ease of use w regards to the post setup among all the other reasons to get a RED

I cant find info on outputs from the camera (shutterpulse , video blanking sync or the like) , TC (in or out) etc.

Does any one know if RED is aiming for this use ?

Does anyone know who to talk to about the Motion Control needs ?

PS : Good idea with the in camera / in viewfinder playback of previous takes , if done with an animatable wipe or transparency or keying it could be extremly usefull together with the 3Dinserter

[Camille Herren]

Curt,

Since your current moco system doesn't have the capability to roll the camera, are you planning on incorporating that in a future product? Or could it possibly be an additional piece of hardware you simply stick on top of Mirus (since it would only need to roll)? I would definitely be very interested in Mirus, if it had the (even prospective) ability to roll the camera...

Thanks!

[Stuart English]

Camera has timecode in/out, GPI / GPO pulse interfaces, limited command set RS232 and complete command set USB-2 interfaces.

I can only get into specifics with MOCO system developers at the moment as specifications are subject to change.

[CVB]

We have an axis output on the top of the head that can be used for a roll axis. We are planning on making a roll axis add-on but due to the non-nodal configuration of our head its a little tricky - the camera has to be placed fairly high off the deck to clear when it rolls. Dolly is easy to incorporate though. We are planning on making a full jib-arm system with a 3 axis nodal head but thats a ways out.

[Stephen Williams]

but due to the non-nodal configuration of our head its a little tricky

Hi,

Hopefully your software will be able to compensate for the head not being on nodel point, otherwise moves will be 'interesting' when you lift or track the camera.

Stephen

[allano]

We have an axis output on the top of the head that can be used for a roll axis.

I have used , for limited roll for e.g. "underwater" feel movements and handheld feel , a motorized TANGO plate.It gives prox + - 45 degrees in Nodal roll. Other times we use optic roll if feasable.Takes some stops though.

http://www.tangohead.com/prod_tango_digital.html

(Disclaimer : I dont have anything to do with the manufacturers but I like their product)

I also once had a Sorensen Roll cage - excellent machinery for the heavy stuff.


Hi,Hopefully your software will be able to compensate for the head not being on nodel point, otherwise moves will be 'interesting' when you lift or track the camera.

When I have a camera or lens sitting off nodal , I am very keen on measuring the "off nodal parameters".Some parameters more important than others - e.g. 5 cm up from nodal does a lot to the picture while 5 cm in front or back is less dominant.Sometimes its easier to track (when the camera is not moving around a lot e.g. pan/tilt on tripod) if you can punch in some details about the camera-characteristics.

Scaling is more tricky.......

Talking about Nodal - Is the RED behaving normal with regards to Nodal ? I mean is the Nodal points inside the lenses or behind the camera like I have seen on some video cameras ? I would assume its inside the lenses , except for the 300mm....

[CVB]

Hi,

Hopefully your software will be able to compensate for the head not being on nodel point, otherwise moves will be 'interesting' when you lift or track the camera.

Stephen

Yes, the exported data compensates for the configuration. It outputs pan, tilt, X translation, zoom, focus, and iris. You have to enter the distances from the tilt axis up to the focal plane.