Red Pro Primes or Zeiss Standard Speeds T2.1

[SHARMAINE DANIELS]

Trying to decide which way to go, please help

[julian-nüesch]

Trying to decide which way to go, please help

well, if weight, does not matter for you? get the RPP`S

they are a steal for the Price, you will love them.

[Herring]

The wider (16,24,32mm) Zeiss 2.1's suffer from slight portholing on RED.
At first sight it is not very noticeable, unless you shoot green/bluescreen.
It helps when you stop down a bit.
If you do not mind this, you can buy a very nice set of lightweight lenses for a steal price.

The RPP's are bigger and heavier, but optically they are very nice.
Because they cover a 5K sensor the RPP's are ready for future upgrades of your RED.

Cheers,
Joost van Herwijnen

[Mike McEntire]

I have both the old and the new. The Zeiss glass has been sent to the desert to die a dry and dusty death while the RPP's get to go to all the big shoots. RPP's for sure.

[Tonaci Tran]

RPPs are an amazing value.

[Jose Lomeña]

buy or rent?, handheld or tripod?, night or day?

Always depend, in my opinion too diferent lens for make a comparison.

In good conditions the zeiss are great. I have a set of 2.1. I don't like 16, 20, 24, 32(the worst) with less than F4.0, The rest 40,50,80,105,135,180 are great lenses at f2.8. Make sure that are collimated. The best of this lens are the weight and size. But be carefull to get the right follow focus, because the focus is so near to the redone mount.

In my opinion the RPPs are far superior. But sometimes the weight and size is important. When i can't rent RPPs I prefer to use Nikon 17-35 and the rest of the set of zeiss. The nikon 17-35 is a lot sharper at f2.8 and f4 than zeiss, and don't have portholing (vignetting) problem. But a lot of CA and distortion at 17mm, ok at 20mm.

Saludos,

Jose.

[Gunleik Groven]

I'd sef have gone with the RPP's, if rental was not my business (which it isn't) The initial zooms have not done mach good for REDs glass reputation, and I have seen people just not wanting to put anything "RED" in front of their cams because of them.

BUT the RPPs are amazing glass. Highly underrated by many of those who haven't used them. I'll be doing a three way RPP/MP/standard speed document later this fall, but if it is for shooting, the RPPs are amazing value.

The wide ones are heavier than masters, though...

Cheers
Gunleik

[Dan Kanes]

depends on what you're shooting or who you are renting to...Buuuut I'd say:

Allstar A mount
AllStar PL mount
AllStar Nikon Adapters for:
DUCLOS or RPLENS modified
Tokina 11-16
Zeiss ZF 28mm f2
Zeiss ZF.2 35mm f1.4 (just announced)
Zeiss ZF 50mm f1.4
Zeiss ZF 85mm f1.4
Zeiss ZF 100mm f2

Then you can easily go PL for rental, cheaper than RPPs or Second Hand Zeiss, more contemporary coatings (unless you are seeking a "look"), you can use affordable screw in filters for run and gun work, and these lenses should theoretically provide a nice large circle of confusion for Epic and perhaps beyond...
You have the robustness of a PL style mount, gears and 80mm fronts, you have a nice range there, you can easily get other A mount backs for hiring in oddball lenses or other experimentation and there are other owner operators starting to use the A mount (I'm hoping to get one soon).

[R. Schorman]

I did the same debate and decided on Standard Primes.

Paid about $14k for a set of 5 and am extremely happy. Lightweight + Arri/Zeiss name and sharpness makes clients happy. If I was only shooting my own stuff though I might have gone RPP.

[KETCH ROSSi]

NO CONTEST RPP!!

[Evin Grant]

I chose to keep and expand my Zeiss T2.1s, I now have 12-135mm. My favorites are the 20, 28, 40 and 135mm lenses. I still need to find a 60mm Macro though. I had an RPP set for a while and although I agree that they are fantastic optically I really couldn't handle the weight for handheld Vs. the Zeiss's. Also the T2.1s really have a wonderful look on digital, on our side by side tests at SALT there was no real perceivable difference between the T2.1s and the Ultra primes. The T2.1s actually showed less CA. The wides will porthole slightly but it's mostly gone at 2.8 and completely gone at f4.
They are all very sharp in the center wide open, especially the ones I mentioned above. The 28mm is actually the same floating element design as the Ultra. I think they draw very similarly to Ultras but I prefer the more traditional Bokeh of the T2.1s. You really can't go wrong with either.

[Matthew Duclos]

I must say, Evin does have one of the nicest sets of Zeiss T2.1 primes I've seen in a long time. A real treat for someone of my occupation to see. Personally, I would go with the Zeiss primes simply for practicality.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Have to say I love my RPP's... Excellent glass for the money. But Evin has it right, the bulk of the lenses can be a real concern sometimes. I have also found that while people are slowly beginning to accept the RPPs more and more, they are still a tough sell to rental customers. I held off buying a set of Ultra Primes and bought the RPPs instead. Looking back on it now, there are many times I wish I would've bought the Ultras. I would have purchased them more than a year before the RPP's and would have had more than 3X the rental frequency with them over a longer period by this point. Not to mention all the money I would've saved when I had to rent primes, so would have easily paid the Ultras off by now, probably within the first year. I wouldn't have had to wait for over 6 months for RED to release the 18mm. All that is a non-issue now, but the RPPs still lack a lot of focal lengths I would like. ...10, 14, 16, 40, 60/65, 120, 135. A good macro, not using diopters, would love the 65 and 120 to be macro. I believe 14, 40 and 65 will be the next focal lengths RED will release.

I have looked at most of the new lens offerings out there and I think the best deals going right now for new glass are the RPP's and Ultras. I like the concept behind the Zeiss compact primes, but the execution or implementation is somewhat lacking. The 18mm doesn't match the rest of the set and they have crippled the 50mm and 85mm from the SLR models and from the original "CP1" release of the Compact Primes.

If you can find a nice set of Zeiss T2.1 standards, they could be a great investment. Just be sure to price out the Ultras and a few other options. Don't go off list prices or common perception, actually get a quote. You might be surprised. When I almost bought the Ultras (and foolishly did not), I actually got a couple quotes and was shocked at the pricing, in a good way. I still can't believe I passed on buying them -- probably because I kept thinking the RPP's were just around the corner. ...Which they were, a year later... FWIW, I think the price on Ultras has GONE UP since Zeiss released the Compact Primes.

[Steve Das]

...Just be sure to price out the Ultras and a few other options. Don't go off list prices or common perception, actually get a quote. You might be surprised....

Surprise us Jeff...around what were you quoted for X number of Ultras :bigear:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It wasn't that the prices on the Ultras were that outstanding at the time. But I was consistently being quoted 10-15% off MSRP, depending on which lenses I chose. This was over 2 years ago and people were paying stupid prices for old lenses as the market was glass hungry. For a 5-lens set, I was being quoted in the low to mid $50K range, where at the time MSRP was around $62K or so for a set like I wanted. Granted, that's still $10K/lens, but a nice set of Zeiss standards, even though they were 15 years old or so, on average, were selling in the high $40K range or between $8K and $9K per lens at the time. I really had to question why I would buy the older glass, when for $5K~$7K more I could buy the newer, modern design.

I held off on the promise of RPPs being less than half the price. All while continuing to rent other glass (money out of my pocket with nothing to show for it) and only to wait about a year longer than I anticipated to get the RPPs wen I could have owned something else. From the time I got my first RED One, to the time I got my RPPs -- 14 months later -- I had probably spent about $20K renting glass and at least $8K of that was for my own personal projects, not reimbursed by a rental client. Sooo... Not the most intelligent thing I've ever done, or not done... Since buying the RPP's, I think I only rented them 5 or 6 times in 2009 I think a dozen rentals in 2010. I would say that 9 out of 10 prospective rentals where I pitch the RPPs to will decline and I end up rounding up Zeiss standards, Ultras, sometimes Masters or S4's for them. I feel pretty confident that I could have rented the Ultras out 3X as often and for 2X as much.

So maybe my logic doesn't apply now as the market has settled somewhat and rental customers are accepting the RPPs more. Not to mention the dollar has gone through a roller-coaster ride during that time too.

I'm not saying one should go buy expensive new glass and forget about older glass that may be a good deal. Not at all. I guess what I'm saying is that one should shop around and consider all aspects of what is available and what they will be doing with the lenses. To me, buying a set of RPPs or buying a set of Zeiss T2.1s would amount to two entirely different things. And it goes beyond the ergonomics of using them, but in what capacity they will be used and for what purpose. There are sets of Zeiss T2.1s out there to buy, but IMO, most of what's available out there isn't worth the asking price... Or at least they rarely are when I've gone to look at them. Lots of oddball setts cobbled together by people scrounging up individual lenses on eBay too.

[paul engstrom]

Have seen good things from the Signature set from Uniq Optics too. And they will sell matched sets for 3d. Just more info. to consider.

[Robert Horwell]

Jeff, very good points, especially regarding the Ultras, i was in the same position as you for a while, and very nearly purchased a set of ultras. luckily i had a couple of other sets of glass to use for my own work. Even now 2nd hand Ultras are for sale on this very website for more than or same as new Ultras or cookes here in the UK. Weather that is due to the exchange rate i'm not sure. RPP's or Zeiss standards. I had a nice set of standards, they where very nice very sharp glass, great contrast, and sharper wide open than Supers. Standards are very underated lenses. Personaly i have just pulled the trigger on a set of the new Cooke Panchros and should have them in a month or so. Rental wise, it's very hard to push RPP's in the UK, unless they are going to RED owners who need glass. I would also say the same about any glass that isn't Zeiss, Ang or cooke. The Uniq Optics look good on paper, but yet again unless it's for perosnal use, a hard sell to a client or producer. So if your looking for rental potential, Zeiss - also consider that some of the focal lengths aren't so suited to the RED sensor size, or maybe personal use and value balanced off with performance and you don't mind the weight try the RPP's, it's a lot of lens for the money. After the Panchros arrive my next set will be a set of S5's, i spoke to Cooke today and they told me October brings a price rise for Cookes, so if your buying, go now.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The RPPs have newer coating tech so less veiling glare than the Standards when shooting into lights (instruments and practicals)

finding a used set of Standards in the kind of shape that Evin's is in may be a chore - in other words, IF you can get brand new RPPs for not much more than decades old Standards you may save yourself some headaches

the RPPs may never be as popular in the rental world as Zeiss, Angie and Cooke but I believe that as time passes that bias will ebb

Cheers - #19

[Shawn Nelson]

I love my RPPs, being able to shoot wide open at 1.8 and still be sharp is something that's great to have.

[Robert Horwell]

I wish i felt the same, but i don't think that RPP's will have the same rental pull as the Major glass manufacturers. Non of the major rental houses in the UK have them on the shelf. In my opinion they are a good VALUE lens, but that also means they have to compromise in other areas, and those compromises play a major factor in their rentability (sic) :smile5:

Like i say for the money, great value.

[SHARMAINE DANIELS]

Thanks for the great feedback Guys!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

older glass = my favorite on digital sensors if you want that film feel...
newer glass on a digital sensor feels digital.
but these are just my opinions.. ive seen incredible images from both