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tj williams
02-04-2007, 10:56 PM
Quoted from DVX Forum December:
BRING BACK SCALED 2K RAW !!!

I thought I'd been told we could do this in Jan. I searched 2K scaled with no results. If we can shoot 4K or 2K with the full sensor then more of our work could be done with one set of lenses.

Can we shoot with the 35mm size sensor in 2K and scale the output.:confused: :confused: :confused:

MikeCurtis
02-05-2007, 09:56 AM
My understanding of 2K scaled RAW was to start with 4K and scale it to 2K - but the deBayering math gets all wonky if you try that, so I think that's why they dropped it...AFAIK. Somebody bust me if I'm wrong.

Martin Drew
02-05-2007, 10:21 AM
You can shoot 4K with 35mm lenses and have it scaled to 1080p in camera but no 2k scaled in camera anymore. And the resultant 1080p will be RedCode RGB not RedCode RAW

M

J. Bernard Vallon
02-05-2007, 12:15 PM
I asked a while ago if it was possible to shoot 4k redcode raw and compress it to 2k redcode raw in redcine...like downresing without de-bayering.

Graeme said they're looking in to it. It would be a good solution, i'm crossing my fingers

Brook Willard
02-06-2007, 12:22 AM
2K scaled REDCODE RAW was never an option - scaling a RAW file is inherently impossible.

You'll want to shoot 4K REDCODE RAW (@27.5MB/s) and scale from there in REDCINE.

Antoine Baumann
02-06-2007, 01:53 AM
I asked a while ago if it was possible to shoot 4k redcode raw and compress it to 2k redcode raw in redcine...like downresing without de-bayering.

Graeme said they're looking in to it. It would be a good solution, i'm crossing my fingers

I always thought it would be possible to downsize the footage in RedCine to any size and any codecs install on your system, that will of course include 4k redcode raw to 2k redcode raw.

antoine.

Rob Lohman
02-06-2007, 03:26 AM
No, every processing in REDCINE is done in the RGB domain. Not RAW. First step (after decompression) is converting RAW to RGB.

You output RGB / YUV etc., not RAW. Input RAW, output something else. And yes, you can input 4K and output 2K cropped / resampled [RGB/YUV]

Antoine Baumann
02-06-2007, 07:20 AM
Thanks Rob for the update.

But with the RPL (Red Pull List) it shouldn't be a problem to output some footage at, let's say, draft demosaic 720p redcode rgb, do your editing, and then go back to your 4k redcode raw and make color decision and process only your RPL in 2k 12 bit redcode rgb with high quality demosaic. Then you do composite jobs or directly the final grade and fade in/out. Last you print to film or tape it for TV.


Is this workflow make sens to you (all of you :-)

Thanks for feedback,
antoine.

Blair S. Paulsen
02-06-2007, 04:50 PM
AFAIK a RPL from the original 4k processed by RedCine into the highest format your post facility can handle (2k@12bit sounds pretty good to me) workflow is the best quality option for virtually every scenario.

For budget minded indies it will be interesting to see just how much of a grade you can do right in RedCine, but superior toolsets are out there if you have some budget. A lot of us are hoping that the new FCS6, presumably to be shown (if not shipping) at NAB'07, will include a color correction module based on the Silicon Color engine and tightly integrated into the suite. Assuming that this package can handle 2k material at more than 8 bits, and frankly even if it is limited to 1080, I expect it to become very popular.

Jim Arthurs
02-06-2007, 06:20 PM
You output RGB / YUV etc., not RAW. Input RAW, output something else. And yes, you can input 4K and output 2K cropped / resampled [RGB/YUV]

Shouldn't there be some ability somewhere in the RED workflow to allow simple cuts or trimming an overly long RAW clip into a shorter one without converting it to RGB or recompressing it? Say you have your drive of dailies and you want to throw away everything before the slate and after calling cut. Or you want to ship a few seconds from a take to an FX house to work on, but not the entire take.

Could be a huge space savings for sports, nature, etc. if we could trim and consolidate media before archiving.

Rob Lohman
02-06-2007, 07:29 PM
At the moment I'm approaching things in the "don't destroy" your negative kind of way. But I'm open to suggestions. Would a command line tool that could generate a new RAW movie file from another with only frames 200 - 500 in it be good enough to start with?

The cool thing with software is you can always expand :)

Chris Kenny
02-06-2007, 09:08 PM
An option to modify the original files would be nice. Everyone keeps good backups, right? Right?

Generating new files could involve copying gigabytes of data for no compelling reason. Sure, it's safer that way, but with some footage there's really just no chance that you'll ever use it. At 1.65 GB/min it would be convenient to be able to get rid of it easily.

Ideally there would just be a menu command in REDCINE that trimmed clips to specified in/out points. (You guys probably have in/out points anyway, right? To specify just a segment of a clip for conversion to another format?)

Jim Arthurs
02-06-2007, 10:21 PM
At the moment I'm approaching things in the "don't destroy" your negative kind of way. But I'm open to suggestions. Would a command line tool that could generate a new RAW movie file from another with only frames 200 - 500 in it be good enough to start with?

The cool thing with software is you can always expand :)

Thanks for the consideration, Rob... Actually, I originally wasn't thinking of destructively editing the original, just "cloning" sections of original files. I'd rather temporarily bloat my drives with a second, smaller set than risk destroying the originals. But I also see Chris Kenny's point... maybe there is room for purely destructive editing as well. It's not RED's fault if you delete the wrong thing...

For reference, the P2 Import option of FCP is what I'm thinking of... it allows in and out points to be set for the raw MXF file conversion to a the new QT wrapper. New file, no recompression, but only the length of in/outs. Of course you can "recapture" them back if you need to remake them at some point in time.

And yes, starting with a command line tool with simple range selection is just fine...

Antoine Baumann
02-07-2007, 02:14 AM
At the moment I'm approaching things in the "don't destroy" your negative kind of way. But I'm open to suggestions.

You guys are so great :cool:


Would a command line tool that could generate a new RAW movie file from another with only frames 200 - 500 in it be good enough to start with?

Command line for those things is really not a problem.

Wade McDonald
02-07-2007, 09:56 AM
At the moment I'm approaching things in the "don't destroy" your negative kind of way. But I'm open to suggestions. Would a command line tool that could generate a new RAW movie file from another with only frames 200 - 500 in it be good enough to start with?


That would be wonderful. :)

tj williams
02-07-2007, 10:44 AM
Rob
I thought the advantage of raw was the manipubility of pictures. just like we get in a raw still image in photoshop. I thought we would grade. for the greater range of possible correction but without disturbing the actual raw files, render the graded output, to RGB or DVCPRo50HD etc. If this isn't the case then for output to HD we are just as well to record on the magazine in 1080P RGB!!!!

Antoine Baumann
02-07-2007, 11:24 AM
Rob
I thought the advantage of raw was the manipubility of pictures. just like we get in a raw still image in photoshop. I thought we would grade. for the greater range of possible correction but without disturbing the actual raw files, render the graded output, to RGB or DVCPRo50HD etc. If this isn't the case then for output to HD we are just as well to record on the magazine in 1080P RGB!!!!

It is the case. When processing raw sequences into rgb, you won't touch the original raw frames, but create new rgb ones.
That's said, it has been asked if it was possible to downsize the 4k raw to an other raw resolution, but that is not possible, you would get rgb or yuv.
It has also been asked if we can keep only a part of the raw frames of a sequence (take a long interview for exemple, where you want only keep the important part, because the rest is just not usable), and that will be possible through a command line. You would create new raw sequence (with only the interesting frames) and delete the original.

At least that's what I understood,
antoine.

Jared VanLeuven
02-07-2007, 01:17 PM
At the moment I'm approaching things in the "don't destroy" your negative kind of way. But I'm open to suggestions. Would a command line tool that could generate a new RAW movie file from another with only frames 200 - 500 in it be good enough to start with?

Yes Rob, that would be great!

Rob Lohman
02-07-2007, 06:05 PM
tj: RAW is in, not out. So yes, you develop your RAW negative into your *new* "RGB" (or something else) file. No worries!

tj williams
02-08-2007, 11:33 AM
The confirmation we have the full power of raw, to make our final image from in RED CINE is excellent!

Ability to select out only the part of the RAW file we want to save and expunge may be very useful when trying to keep as much negative as possible on limited disk space. Saying this to put it in perspective 2 years ago I threw out a pickup truck full of Betacam footage which was no longer needed but had been archived.

Stokestack
02-08-2007, 11:15 PM
Hi Rob.

I would consider the ability to trim (or copy sections of) raw files essential. I'm surprised that this wouldn't be a normal option in the Redcine GUI. I'd expect that you'd mark In & Out points throughout your footage, select an output format, and hit Export; with one of the possible output formats being the same as the original (Redcode raw or uncompressed raw). If the user selects a raw format for export, all other functions are disabled. Would it be possible to add an execution path to Redcine to do this, instead of having to use pencil and paper (to write down Ins & Outs) and a separate command-line utility?

Given the potentially vast size of original footage, we need to be able to discard stuff we know we'll never use, while retaining the full potential of the raw files for later use.

Also... why wouldn't it be possible to scale 4K to 2K raw in camera (or out)? There are R, G, and B photosites on the sensor, right, so why wouldn't it be possible to weight their influence and blend their values just as you would when scaling anything else?

Thanks!

Ace
02-09-2007, 12:30 AM
Hi Rob.

I would consider the ability to trim (or copy sections of) raw files essential. I'm surprised that this wouldn't be a normal option in the Redcine GUI. I'd expect that you'd mark In & Out points throughout your footage, select an output format, and hit Export; with one of the possible output formats being the same as the original (Redcode raw or uncompressed raw). If the user selects a raw format for export, all other functions are disabled. Would it be possible to add an execution path to Redcine to do this, instead of having to use pencil and paper (to write down Ins & Outs) and a separate command-line utility

Thanks!

Considering that part of a RAW softwares job is to adjust colour temprature and white balance in shots, you would obviously need to do this on a shot by shot basis.. You cant just dump the same setting onto your entire shoot obviously. So cutting segments and selecting them would be essential. Either that, or RED stores each take as a seperate file which you can simply drag and drop and apply your settings and bobs your uncle.

Chris Kenny
02-09-2007, 01:15 AM
Considering that part of a RAW softwares job is to adjust colour temprature and white balance in shots, you would obviously need to do this on a shot by shot basis.. You cant just dump the same setting onto your entire shoot obviously. So cutting segments and selecting them would be essential. Either that, or RED stores each take as a seperate file which you can simply drag and drop and apply your settings and bobs your uncle.

I'd be very surprised if the camera didn't store clips as separate files. It's the natural thing to do with disk or flash-based storage. Anyway, as discussed elsewhere, REDDRIVEs will apparently be formatted FAT32, which means you need to break up files every 4 GB no matter what. (I'd assume REDCINE would hide this implementation detail from the user.)

Rob Lohman
02-09-2007, 04:39 AM
Yes to file based approach. And yes REDCINE allows you to set in & out and export. Thanks for the feedback for RAW 'cutting'.

tj williams
02-09-2007, 07:53 AM
Hi Rob

Did Acehole say Rob's your uncle.....

Will we then have a list of clips with icons: Say an image about 20 seconds into the clip(adjustable) and will there be a way to input scene/shot/take/circle etc. info into the camera. at the beginning and end of clip recording? cool if the text overlay the picture.

If we are going to discard raw clips, and select certain raw clips to render out it would be nice if the info was in the camera. It would also be nice if the info followed the clips thru rendering in red cine!

Off course we can keep shot lists seperately in the classic ways, but having it available as a clip list is pretty foolproof.

Steve Freebairn
02-12-2007, 08:08 PM
I just wanted to throw my vote in for being able to trim raw. It will be very useful until we all have 300tb OS drives :)